True Voice – Mohd Rafi
The following article was brought to my notice when Sharad posted it on MAS. The article has been trimmed down a bit keeping afloat Rafi details. However, anyone interested can go visit the source at http://tfmpage.com/forum/4980.6302.04.57.19.html
I am Swaminatha Iyer and I am 78 years old. I hail from Tiruchi and I am a part of music associations in Tiruchi, M’as as well as in West Bengal and Maharashtra.
I think it is wrong to condemn music or artists on either side of Vindhyas. Our Indian music is one of the few which has not been cleaned off by the western music though there has always been a influence. It speaks a lot of the richness of our music. Sometime back director of MTV had said that MTV westernized the music wherever it went but in India , MTV had to be Indianized for it to be accepted. A lot of this credit goes to the Indian film music.
I have been fortunate to have close personal association with Rafi, Sirkali, TMS, Dr. BMK, Kishore, SPB & KJY, PS, Mannadey and the one and only Lata Mangeshkar.
Comparisons are bound to come, but almost every artist or I have met considers Lata to be beyond comparison. Her talents are beyond anyone’s reach. Even Sirkazi used to talk of her singing like a die-hard fan as do countless others.
Now coming to the Rafi-SPB discussion. It might be difficult to convince an South Indian to believe Rafi is the better and at the same time Rafi crowd will never believe any other male singer comes anywhere nearer. There is one more mobile crowd, which is well conversant with Hindi and some south Indian language. Majority of them tilt to either Rafi or Kishore.
During one of my stays in M’as I had stayed with SPB. While talking of true voices he said, I don’t feel like half a singer when listening to Rafi. True voice is not a tech term but many in circle use it. Perfect example would be lata, but to understand consider our own PS who within her range is superb. People who do not have such true voices can never do justice to original. They generally underplay many parts of the song or fake it with bass/superficial singing. True voices make people like Sirkazi, Nusrat Fateh Ali khan, Lata… Inimitable. However since Sirkazi and Nusrat did not have the filmy voices their “real” following is limited to their local arena.
In addition to the true voice if the singer has a very good voice then in “most” cases he/she can better songs of others. It is this combination which makes Rafi stand out among the other male singers. There are many here who seem to have mistaken notions on a good bass and also on high pitch.
Bryan Adams does not require a monster bass in “Summer of 69” to sound real manly. It is the punch which gives that feel and that is decided only by the comfort level in most ranges (that is by what your throat can support). This you CAN never disguise with bass. Since people have talked about lack of manly voice viz. a viz. Rafi it was necessary to bring this point out. I have had the fortune of listening to most singers in studio and some times without a mike, practicing with MD’s.When Lata or Rafi do, the level is so high that people hesitate to even hum. It felt silly to sing in their presence (and it feels silly when someone says his voice isn’t manly).
In RD’s tribute when SPB sang “Aaja Aaja mein hoon” or “Chaand mera dil” it sounded only sweet and lacked punch if you compare with Rafi’s original.
Yesu once told me God has been partial to Rafi. He said “god gift term anavasyamaa romba common aa ippo use aardu”.. but idu Rafi kee thaan 100% porundu”. This person could sing “as intricately as a lady without sounding thin”, “cover any mood”, “versatility odey perfect example Rafi”. Yesu said most important is the comfort level over ranges which makes you feel God has been partial to Rafi. (But Of course in Rafi’s early career (1950’s) the voice was relatively feeble).
To people exposed to Rafi’s talent, these or any amount of praise can only seem less. I just wish he was alive and you people could get a live chance to hear him. Probably you can get hold of the DD album for the Geet Gaata Chal series where the first four episodes were dedicated to Rafi. Rafi is on camera singing “O Duniya Ke Rakwaaley” and many other songs. If you see and hear the last part you will realize why SPB said “impossible”. I think particularly those people who have talked about scales w.r.t Rafi should see this album. Its a known fact in industry that Rafi ruled high pitch and there is no male singer better in switching notes so easily. There are artists who can go beyond but then they sound strained or they don’t have pleasant voices when they venture into those territories.
Many singers of today are his compulsive followers. But they end up inheriting only part of his quality. Md. Aziz ended up with a sad voice. Mahendra Kapoor with a thick nasal voice. Anwar with a nasal voice. Sonu Nigam with a feminine voice. Rafi neither had a soft voice nor a heavy (bass) voice he had a good voice. Importantly did not strain at high notes, and voice if at all only became better at higher notes. If you see him singing it will remind you of Janaki. However diff the song is or the note is he will be smiling and singing. It is unthinkable that he cannot sing something.
There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo” song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect. There are lot of other songs of SPB where this great singer has played with songs in total control. You will find most south Indian singers who have had a good exposure say that it is beneficial to learn Hindustani as it gives better breath control and improves expression.
Rafi was not only able to glide over a song, the important thing was that he could express each word/sound when singing. It is one thing to hold your breath, start and reach a crescendo (high note), as like in “Shankara”, “Anbey (Yennai kaan villaye)” it is different ballgame if you have to do it from low notes or suddenly switch notes. With practice the former can be done, latter requires a special gift. Rafi had a natural ability to do the latter. In “Tum joh mil gaye ho” there is such a transition in the “karwaan mil gaya” part. I have never seen anyone do justice to most of his songs in my life time. In “parda hai parda” quawaali the similar part is “kar doon to, Akbar mera naam”. In fact most of his songs will have these specialty as it was his natural ability to sing freely in a wide range at the same time giving that extra expression.
Whereas SPB takes us to heavens with “Idu oru pon maali”,”Ilaya nila” “bisiladarenu”(kannada), when he sings Rafi’s song it lacks the punch or expression, though it has the bass. But at least most agree that SPB does some justice to original, whereas most others murder the original.
One trivial point I would like to add is that singing in Hindi is harder. There are more “JHA”,”CHA”,”HA”,”THA”, “KHA”,”JA”,”FA”. These take away the breath faster. The more expressive you are the more air you are using up. Just singing from Nabhi will not help, your throat also needs to do a lot, for singing in Hindi, Bengali etc. SPB makes you fall in love with his south Indian songs but same cannot be said about his Hindi songs. If you just glide through words having these sounds, you will never be expressive. Doing this as well as reaching high notes is not easy. Rafi had this gift and that’s why it is difficult to imagine anyone else in his shoes. Song “Chalkaaye jaam” has so much expression that it is unthinkable how anyone can sing it. When Rafi switches to a high note with “Mitwaa” in the song “Chaahunga mein tughey” you cannot replicate it with bass. Most others will sound as if they are shouting in such cases. That man’s throat had the ability to freely sing at such levels.
Versatility is not just the ability to sing in various styles, more important is how good you are singing in those styles. You have lot of Ghazal singers today but when Rafi sings a Ghazal you will sit up and take notice. You don’t have to be part of the Ghazal listeners crowd. This is one important aspect. Whatever style you sing you should be able to pull the common man to listen and not just a particular crowd. Pick “parda hai parda” or any qawalli and it will stand tall among other qawalli’s.
Variety is amazing :
songs of Guru Dutt’s Khagaz key phool or songs like abhi naa jao chod key, Aaja teri yaad aayi, Aaj kal mein dhal gaya, Aaj kal terey merey pyaar, Aasmaan sey aaya farishta, Dil ney pyaar kiya hai, Deewana mujh saa nahi, Din dhal jaaye, Duniya paagal hai, Jaane walon jara, Dil joh na kaha saka, Dil key jharokon mein, Dil kaa bhavar, Chalkey teri aakkhon sey, Kar chaley hum fida, khilona jaan kar tum, Woh jab yaad aay, Woh hain jara khafa, Vaadian mera daaman, Pathar key sanam, Chaand mera dil, Main zindagi kaa saath, Mainey poocha chaand sey, sun sun jaalima, Koi jab raah na paay, hum to chaley pardes, badan pey sitaarey, laal chadi maidaan, Tum jo mil gaye, O meri shaahey, Sau baar janam lengey, Tum mujhey yoon bhula, Tumney mujhey dekha, Terey merey sapney, Tumny pukaara hum chaley aay
Name a situation/mood and Rafi’s song will be there on the top.
Swami
PRAKASH JI:
yes. every fan club or a website would say their hero is the best . true.
but see this gentleman known as surabjit bose. it needs real thick skin to visit this website and question mohd rafi’s singing skills in a semi-classical song which is enjoyed by music connossieurs for the last 55 plus years. it needs real thick skin to question the legend composer naushad saab the songs creator. baiju bawra is written in words of pure gold in the annals of indian music.
and this kishore kumar lover wants to find faults rafi saahebs voice and his singing. poor soul, his hero does not have even two songs of the semiclassical genre – and this could be the reason why he has laboured so hard with no succes – in driving comparisons with the divine voice of mohd rafi as compared to the hoarse voice ( h.m.v. ).
binu nair, mumbai………..
Thanks Sudipji for the marvelous song… actually I haven’t heard much Chitragupta songs… listening to this one, I’m sure he was very much ‘there’. And what a stupendous singing… so many emotions in a single piece…. and may be it shows how a “talking to self” song can be sung in another (and better) way….
Dhaniram sir and Mykji, I’m very much with you when you say that one can actually be objective about singers (like any other artists, professionals, sportsmen etc.) and indeed determine the best…. And there can be no doubt who’s the best in HFM… Some one (I suppose it was Sudipji) was mentioning some time back that his girlfriend is the most beautiful woman on earth for him but he knows fully well that it’s not the ‘fact’. Sadly, many people don’t realise it… they r so enamoured by their favourites that they can’t see the obvious… instead they conjure up all sorts of twisted doctrines and propogate it… actually I browsed through the ‘RMIM’ today and what’s being propogated here is a compilation of some of the posts over there.
To continue with my series:
Here’s a famous ‘sensuous’ song (believed to be the top one in the category)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HenA-OUyo0s
How about this one (in the same category)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EHanmlDOhA
Now to a famous ‘soft romantic’ song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdPuOGazWZg
How’s this one in comparison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzQcBSVdgXw
Famous Quawwali(?) on the ‘superstar’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2-JniqHP_8
And how’s this as a response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCNpEOymELE
Mr. Myk, Anil, Prakash – dear friends
Thanks for your great comments on the outstanding telugu song. As I have said earlier, it has been my continuous endeavour to post true and great musical melodious gems, language without being a bar, for enjoyment by all our friends here.
Prakash ji – agreed, comparisons cannot be made between two incomparable legends like rafi and ghantasala, and I have never made it. My above para provides the answer to this. Thanks a lot.
Dear prakash,
In KK website u will see more than 90% saying that Mohd Rafi is the greater than KK,also u should that we Mohd Rafi fans are not able to write there at KK site,At KK site they never speak honestly,Kk was a man who changed his name for a woman.
About ghantasala I don’t anything about him maybe in that site people don’t know anything about Bollywood music..!!!!!!!!???I will not going to compare Mohd Rafi with ghantasala because I don’t know anything about him but as I think there no one can be greater singer than Mohd rafi as I think it same when u ask english man who never listened to Mohd rafi songs and ask him to compare Mohd Rafi with english singer…
Dear Bose
If u know about good music you should understant that the only name can be comapre as singer with Mohd Rafi can be only Lata Ji,I don’t like her but only to be honest that there is only a name in the world of music.
1
Post 1185 – singh ji,
Your post regarding laila majnu number by rafi vs. ghantasala number. I understand you were given the link by your friends. Sorry to say both the songs are different. But the telugu song as you mentioned was quite melodious and very great (the composition is simply unique – i understand from your message it was music directed by ghantasala himself – great , it shows his multitalented skills). I agree with you, both rafi and ghantasala were gifted singers and both were exceptional in their own style of rendering outstanding numbers.
surajit bose ji, binu nairji and other fans of playback singers
These comparisons have been there from the very beginning and it should be noted that such comparisons are not feasible and should not be made also. I have been to the kishore kumar website there also similar things are continuing. Each website portrays their own title singer as great. The ghantasala website portrays him as the greatest ever playback singer (if you read thousands of messages there), the kishore kumar website portrays him as the focus and in this site similar arguments.
My frank and personal view is all are great talents in their own way and gifted ones and one’s individual contribution cannot be in any way replaced or replicated by another. I hope all of my friends agree with me.
The correct link to the song in post 1183 is :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyobVfNiVXs
respected bose sir and sudip sir
our response to music is subjective in the sense that we are all separate individuals and yet there are certain objective parameters of judging the quality of music because music is essentially a social phenomenon.music of a particular kind is the creation of a particular culture.For this reason,chinese music is not the same as indian or african or european.
within a culture there are sub-cultures.our response to music,and for that matter,to all cultural creations, depends upon a number of factors–our upbringing,our sub-cultural background,our training,our nature etc.
since music is a social phenomenon,it is a communally shared activity.there is a community of creators and consumers of music.music is not an amorphous product.it follows certain fixed rules and patterns.whatever diversity is created is done within a fixed universe of patterns.as such there are certain objective parameters.each art has its fixed parameters.it is not on any subjective grounds that novels of d h lawrence are rated superior to sidney sheldon’s.individual liking may differ but we have definite objective criteria to judge the worth of a novel.d.h. lawrence has maturity and depth that sheldon doesn’t have.the latter is superficial.
by all objective criteria,rafi emerges to be number one singer.his domination,his quanity and quality,the appreciation and accolades of the peer group (this is a very important criterion for rating any artist),his range ( in his recent london concert sonu nigam said that all the singers of the golden era were very great but rafi was ahead of them all because of the way he could effortlessly switch genres.he specially praised rafi’s classically based songs and his bhajans which in,in his words no pundit can match),etc
when we pick out the best of the lot,we have to look at his actual contribution and in the male category rafi’s has been the greatest.so why raise a controversy over what is obvious.ghazal is central to indian music.to say that kishore didn’t or couldn’t sing ghazals and then to try to catapult him to number one position doesn’t appeal to any standards of logic.it is simply not objective but just a delirious raving.
we can talk about the qualities of all the singers.after all,all of them had something great in them to appeal to such wide audiences.there is a set of people for whom talat is the best.fine for them.mehdi hassan stands very very high in my own estimation.fine again.but the best and the greatest is rafi and rafi alone,not for any subjective reasons but for purely objective reasons.
Since the debate continues,I must add a few observations.
First,Sh Bose’s response to Anilji that Kishore could have sung many more songs very well given an opportunity.That is to say that we should close our eyes and imagine Kishore singing those songs and enjoy them while we should ignore rafi’s prodigious output because it is riddled with flaws.
At last,in response to sudipji,sh bose has found some merit in poor mukesh who in my estimate is second only to rafi .
regarding yodelling,sudipji,it is just a frill,not central to music.compare it to alaap.I may mention only two songs of rafi.tu ganga ki mauj.the way radhe is intoned conveys delicacy of love which nothing else can do.next the nostalgia of yamuna ke teer.where in kishore do you find such infusion of feeling?another song is parvar deegare alam.singing of tera he hai sahara,tere siva jahaan mein koi naheen hamaara is charged with emotion.
this quality of infusing emotion only rafi has.Not even lata.look at songs like daman mein aag laga baithe.it is voice that is conveying the emotion alongwith tune and wording.in the case of all other singers it is just the wording of the song or the tune that conveys the emotion.rafi’s superb modulations and the quality of his voice do that.kishore has this kind of quality in frivolous songs.
talking about classical songs,bose sir gives the highest marks to saigal and lata.he finds flaws with rafi.but let me mention one meera bhajan by lata.jo tum toro piya main na hi toroon re.the bhajan is perfectly sung till lata reaches the crescendo at giridhar ho and completely flops.
In my previous post, when I mentioned that the Ghantasala song brought up by Mr. Singh, cannot be compared to the Rafi Laila Majnu song, I also meant that the Ghantasala song is not of a similar nature as the Rafi song.
———————
Manish,
One can easily do an objective analysis of singers (or a singer), and of who is the best singer. One needs good musical knowledge, and good observational skills to do such an analysis, and it is easily achievable if one leaves aside personal preferences, bias, choices, tastes etc.
Rafi saab clearly is the greatest singer of all time, there is no two ways about that.
To all others (except Surajit Ji):
Please forgive me for this post, and bear with me. I have been trying to reach Surajit Ji since he stopped posting at RMIM. You can skip this post as I don’t appreciate (or depreciate) Rafi. I will take it offline with Surajitji once I get his e-mail address. I have no other way to reach him.
Surajit Ji,
I used to read your posts on RMIM and wonder why you quit posting there. I read your brilliant analysis on “Sakhi Ri Sun Bole” duet by the Mangeshkar sisters.
I would like you to hear the following filmi-classical songs and give your feedback on them (like the same analysis that you did on “Sakhi Ri Sun Bole”). How are the taans rendered by the singer(s)?
We can take this offline if this forum is not right for this discussion. You can reach me at coolkuna at cooltoad dot com.
As you are a true lover of filmi-classical music, please listen to each song patiently and completely (some songs have taans in the middle or last part of the song). Please give me your feedback. All the songs have a common, famous, playback singer. Can you catch some flaws in the renditions?
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYH-vYEXKWg
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAB7Q1pvcpw
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX17lXOq7mU
4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAKfYeD9OR8
5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mSTYnQ-Ejg
6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMjPYzQ48W0
7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQYLMktBE2I
Thanks,
Pardus
Dear Singh,
The Ghantasala song is great, Thanks for bringing it up, he has shown great fluidity in higher scales, and has done an excellent job with the song. However I feel that this song cannot be compared to Likhar tera naam zamin par. The Rafi Laila Majnu song has many scale and note changes (highs and lows), and the high pitch alaap at the end is extraordinary.
Sudip,
I think you have made some good points. I will not dwell on the class topper analogy that you have brought out. It is a very apt analogy, though I would disagree as to whether either one can be called as the topper. Once again we would be venturing into subjective realms there.
Your other points are very valid. I always think Rafi would sound better than Kishore whenever soft vocals are called for. These are songs like “Hum aur tum aur yeh sama”, “Hum bekhudi mein tumko”, “Aisa to na dekho” or even ghazals. It’s not that Kishore cannot render these songs because he did some very fine soft vocals (all songs from “Door gagan ki chaon mein” fall into this category), but Rafi’s voice edges him in this dept.
Conversely, I think Kishore is more suited for a couple of song types. These include the fun, boisterous songs like “eena meena deeka”, “Cheel cheel chillakke kajri”, “Aake seedhi lagi dil pe”, “yeh shaam mastani” etc.
The other songs that I prefer Kishore’s voice over any other singer’s is for the introspective songs. Songs that are moody or expressive without being overtly sad. Songs that sound as if you are singing to yourself or to somebody else out there. These include “Koi humdum na raha”, “chingari koi bhadke”, “woh shaam kuch ajeeb thi”, “Yeh kya hua, kaise hua”, “Mera jeevan kora kagaz”, “Aadmi jo kehta hai”, “Ruk jaana nahin tu kahin haarke”, “Zindagi ka safar”, “Zindagi ke safar mein guzar jaate”, “Badi sooni sooni hai”, and countless such songs. In fact, until then, nobody suspected Kishore could render these songs with such depth.
If you recall, SDB himself sang some very rich and emotional songs – “Wahan kaun hai tera” from “Guide”, “Sun mere Bandhoo re” from “Bandini”, “Mere saajan hai us paar” from “Bandini”, “Kaahe ko roye” from “Aradhana” etc. They are really good songs and the voice “throw” that SDB incorporated in his singing is really unique and nobody had done it that way before. His voice modulation is such that it is neither a rustic, folk song nor a sophisiticated/city song – it lies somewhere between the two. The voice has a slight rough edge to it and yet it was tunefully rendered.
And if you pay attention, you will agree with me that the way SDB sang these songs is such that it is at once both aloof and ‘involved’, it is neither a sad song nor a happy song, it could sound as if you are singing to yourself or to somebody else out there. But, mostly, it sounds as if you are just narrating an event with a tinge of sadness or wistfulness. Kishore, and to a lesser extent, Manna Dey, borrowed this qualitatively enriching way of singing. Songs that are not necessarily sad or happy, they are just a “thinking aloud” of emotions.
Many, many of Kishore’s songs fall into this category. These include all the songs that I had mentioned previously, and also include songs like “Musaafir hoon yaaron”, “Chalte chalte”, “O majhi re”, “thandi hawa yeh chandni suhani”, “matwale hum matwale tum” etc.
At the end of the day, whom we listen to more depends on what type of songs we prefer to hear.
Classical music is different because the framework and the boundaries of a classical bandish or thumri are a lot more strict and rigid, and variations or freedom for “technical creativity” is somewhat limited. And only those artists who have full command of a raga and it’s various “children” really know exactly where to step out of the boundary without affecting the overall raga itself. The sargams, taans, meends and other embellishments need to be applied at precisely the right spots.
In any case, it was a pleasure exchanging views with you. Here are a couple of my favourite rafi songs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGdLxfcSFPE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbtaz_KmJc
Another favourite is “Bhool jaayen sare gham” – a Rafi-Lata duet.
Hi Manish Kumar,
Thanks for putting out probably the best post so far. Being a fan of any singer is more subjective than objective. The objectivity does come in to the picture initially because the singer has to convince the listener that he is a genuinely good singer. It’s not like we are comparing Kumar Sanu to Rafi here. I heard live songs of sanu and even udit narayan, and I was stunned to see how often they go off-key. And they do not have the “innate feel” for music that both Rafi, Kishore, and even Mukesh had. They do not take the pains to add depth, feeling, and their personal touch to the song. It’s not something everyone can do as well as they did.
Apart from that, what songs we enjoy and which singer we enjoy listening to is very subjective.
I think you summed it up quite well.
Sudipji, again:
‘And there is also a certain empirical substantiation over this subjectivity i.e. the sheer number of critical acclaims that Rafi received and his fanfare across generations’. We can very well add ‘and regions’ at the end of the statement. Know something, In my State (Kerala), Rafisahab is regarded as one of our own, despite the fact that less than 20% of the population understands Hindi. In many of the reality shows contestants are being specifically asked to render Rafisahab songs. And many a time the judges (composers) and guests declare the he/she is a hardcore Rafi fan. Then there are Rafi nites and other programmes, sometimes attended by our own Rafi- K J Yesudas sir. No one really mentions the name ‘Kishore Kumar’ when speaking seriously about music. (yes, there are the 40+ y.o people who have grown up during the RDB-RK-KK wave who think highly of Kishoreda but there ends KK’s reach).
Sudipji:
Your video link is not playing in my PC. May I know the beginning line of the song so that I can find it somewhere.
Since you’ve pointed out Kishoreda’s ‘problem’ I suppose I may also add my bit on why I’m not too fond of him (though I like listening to him occassionally just as I liked to watch Gilchrist bat or Ivanisevic play tennis, occassionally). His voice is one of the main reasons, yes it was rather crisp when he was younger (may be uptil ’71-’72), but it wasn’t the polished, smooth, multi-layered voice (which singers like Rafisahab, Yesudas sir and Jim Reeves have). As he got older, the voice became pretty heavy (which isn’t bad), but along with it it became pretty rough, cloudy and sometimes loud. Along with the voice, what I don’t exactly love is the open-throated, hard-hitting style (which, off course suited certain types of songs and the ‘angry youngmen’ of the ’70s). Then there is RDB and Bappi Lahiri as the 3rd reason. These gentlemen gave Kishoreda the kind of songs which makes you run away from the music system and hate the voice that rendered them.
Manishji:
I’m also a fan of ‘pal pal dil ke paas’ and the one who sang it. This along with ‘yeh shaam mastani’ are probably the KK songs I enjoy the most.
Sighji:
The Ghantasalaji song was good and well-sung. But how is it similar to ‘likhkar tera naam….’? and do you genuinely think that his voice is some thing that draws people to him (as it does in the case of Rafisahab)?
MYK – dear friend,
Many times I was referring to your some mails regarding rafi ji’s rendering from laila majnu specially in comparison to ghantasala ji’s numbers. You were specifically requesting one similar number by ghantasala ji. I strictly have no intention for any comparison between the two incomparable legends, but out of curiosity, I requested my telugu friends and One of my telugu friend has given me this outstanding telugu song (music directed and sung by ghantasala ji) – pl. give your comments on the composition and range.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRp2C-8H2gE – 58k –
As i requested earlier, dear all true music lovers, enjoy true music pl.
post 1155: please see post no 1160 my reply ; you have eaten your own words yet again.
please do not invent things to suit your half baked theories/ideas which you have to disown – later.
you say kishore kumar is on the levels of mohd rafi or better than rafi. where was your idol kishore kumar from the fifties to the seventies when the golden era songs were being made by composers.
I will tell you what was happening. he was rejected by most of the top composers. he went in to acting. then he had lots and lots of income tax matters to deal with. he was low in confidence and mohd rafi sang for him – too – many songs, total eleven in absolute terms. he was in between setting up his homes with the youngest heroines of celluloid.
true, he came to form, sang some very good songs during the later part of seventies and left an indelible mark. bad health, bad composers, frustrations and unhappy situations, changing times and kumar sanu “undid” him in the last days of his tenure.
coming back to mohd rafi, he bade good-bye to acting in mid forties after doing three movies and became the “golden” voice of the hindi music industry close to forty years.
the world accepts these facts but s.bose – never . all these facts taken together made mohd rafi the most popular male singer ever. everyone agrees including the “topmost” comoposers of the land . but not our bose whose boss is kishore kumar.
unfortunately he has no semi-classical songs to hear from his favourite singer – but do not know – why it’s so – yet.
binu nair, mumbai.
Surajit:
You seem to be a good debater because you could rationalize your point of view. But that does not make it either “right” or “wrong” because there can never be a right or wrong in someone’s preference. Your definition of “greatest singer” is based on “ability” and “potential”, and regardless of how much objectivity you put into your analysis, it will always come short because no one knows the unknown. Hence my assertion has always been based on actual contribution. If you take out all Kishore’s songs from film music, I think there will be a void, but taking out all Rafi’s number will render it poorer. To draw an analogy, in almost every school and class I know of since my childhood, there would be a topper who studies 18 hours a day and scores 95 percent and there would be this guy who would study 2 hours a day and score 90 percent. People would often speculate and do “what-if” analysis on the second guy, had he studied 18 hours a day.. The problem is the second guy does not have it in him to study 18 hours a day and score greater than 95 percent. So while the whole society around them might raise storm in the teacup on “what could have happened” , fact of the matter would be, that the TOPPER IS THE TOPPER..In this case, it is Rafi.
You have raised two points that Rafians bring against Kishore. Actually I will bring up neither. To me, Kishore’s problem is not his abilities but the richness (in some situations, loudness) of his voice. And that’s it… His voice is innately so rich and sonorous, that it overrides any emotive content that I seek from his songs..Take “Chalte chalte” for example..I really do not know if its a happy song or a sad long or neither.. For me there are so many Kishore songs that fall into the “no emotion” zone, that I cannot just accept them. Again, to clarify, it is not Kishore’s fault; he does try putting enough depth in all these songs but it is just that the voice overrides the finer elements..If I were a Music director the only class of songs that Kishore would naturally qualify for over Rafi would be “Apni to jaise taise” (Lawaaris) type of “mardaangi” songs..Again, to clear the perspective, NOT because of his inabilities to render BUT because of his natural tonal quality. For this very reason, Kishore’s songs “seemingly” do not have genre classification. I often find “Chingari koi bhadke” and “Main hoon don” playing one after the other in puja pandals in Calcutta. In reality “Chingari..” should not be played in puja pandals at all because it is supposed to be for a pensive setting. You will never find “Hum bekhudi mein” being played in a public occasion.
Take one of Rafi’s finest numbers from Vaasna http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyobVfNiVXs. His malleable voice flows emotively and that to me makes the song a beauty. The technicalities of the song are phenomenal as well, since he starts from a very a high bass and ends the antara at a high pitch flawlessly. But that’s secondary..I can hardly hold my tears when the line “Zindagi chand sawaal ke siva kuchh bhi nahin” is sung… I do not have that association with any Kishore song.
Now you might argue-“Well… That’s subjective”.. And I do not deny that. But shouldn’t music or any form of art have that liberty of subjectivity? I remember the first theoretical lesson from my music class- Music is “Shruti” and Shruti is anything that is appealing and acceptable to our auditory senses-
“Shrabanendriya grayhattad dhanirer shrutibhabet” (Upanishad).. In that perspective I do differ from my fellow Rafians that yodeling is not music. It is indeed music and Rafi was very capable of doing it as well (I posted several songs where Rafi yodeled). And there is also a certain empirical substantiation over this subjectivity i.e. the sheer number of critical acclaims that Rafi received and his fanfare across generations.
This Bose guy,
kitna be-ghairat hai yeh! Charo taraf se is par jute pad rahe hain phir bhi yeah aata rahta hai aur khane ke liye. Apnai ek rut lagaaye hue. “Kishoreda is better than Rafiâ€.
Go back to your mudhole, fellow! KK site does not have requirements for musical taste or sanity you will fit right in there.
Surajit,
No one can be 100% objective when giving a complete analysis of a singer. This is NOT a debate of “which was the better number, infinity or 0?†If it was, then that’s something you *can* intellectualize as RMIM tries to do too much. This discussion is about something close to our hearts – music.
My criteria for the best singer: he is best suited for *my* favorite songs. I like “Zindagi Bhar Nahin Bhoolenge†better than “Eena Meena Deekaâ€. Since Rafi is better suited for that song, I consider him to be the better singer. That’s it. End of story. I don’t care if “Zindagi Bhar Nahin Bhoolenge†is or is not “harder†to sing than “Eena Meena Deekaâ€. All I care is which one I like more or “touches†my heart. This is anything but objective I know. My saying that Rafi is best suited for a song is 100% opinion. Had Kishore Kumar sang “Din Dhal Jaye†– his fans would have preferred his version. The closest to Din Dhal Jaye by Kishore that I know could be “Badi Sooni Sooni Haiâ€. Who can ‘factually†say that one song is better than the other? You can only say which is better based on your likes and dislikes and which song has more or less of those two. If someone just *intrinsically* loves Kishore’s voice (and there are millions of them) – than even elements go out of the window. It ends right there. You tell me, what’s wrong with my criteria? “Factual†arguments have rarely lead to a proper concusions (even in the archived RMIM discussions – they were just discussions on a lone part of music that by itself was incomplete and hence inconclusive).
I like Rafi the most because he has the better voice, better expression of emotions, was more versatile, and his voice was more soothing. All, 100% opinion and there are *lots* of exceptions to that. It’s not an absolute statement. I could have never imagined Kishore could sing “Pal Pal Dil Ke Paas†as amazingly as he did until I heard it. For me, Rafi was talent first and foremost, training second. That’s why I’m not bothered by you questioning his technical skills 😉
I have heard only one Saigal song – the one he sang with Rafi. Rafi vs Saigal? I’d make the same exact argument as #3 🙂 It’s about *my* choice. As for Rafi Sahab, Saigal was his favorite and idol!
Dear Bose
please read what people said about Mohd Rafi
VOICE AS SWEET AS HONEY,
CARRESSING THE PAINS AND HEART OF MANY,
REACHING UNIMAGINABLE HEIGHTS IN MANY A HEARTS,
TOUCHING THE SOUL LIKE A DEVOTIONAL SONG,
TRAVERSING ACROSS RELIGIONS LIKE BREEZE,
MISSED EACH DAY SINCE 1980,
YOU BRING TEARS AS YOUR MEMORIES BECOME PAINFUL,
BUT AGAIN WIPED OFF BY YOUR MAGICAL VOICE & SMILE,
MAY YOU LIVE LONG AND BE REMEBERED BY ONE AND ALL,
BECAUSE RAFI SAAB IS LIKE A DIAMOND FOR EVER.
Regards
music lover
a singer has to be judged by the quality of the songs rendered and the superior songs from total quntity rendered. mohd rafi and lata leads by miles and miles.
few die-hard fans will however would take say about ” 20 ” songs of their favourite singer and “exhibit” them and declare, “this” singer to be the best in the universe.
this is unfortunate and jarring to the great majority of music lovers. but, this frog-in-the-well mentality should be tolerated since some of these great singers have some “great works of arts” to their credit.
happy listening without being caught in the frogs-in-the-well music syndrome.
binu nair…… mumbai
Friends:
I’m starting a series where I shall pit the most famous songs of Kishoreda with songs (not necessarily famous) having some similarity from Rafisahab. Hope the administrator won’t object and request the members to comment on the songs.
Let me start with a famous ‘journey song’ picturised on Jeetu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEol25DMA_Q
Here’s another ‘journey song’ again picturised on a moustached Jeetu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAFlBUhaVdM
Now to a much-heralded RDB song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpM0jPd6-7w
And here’s one with a similar ‘mood’ and same actor and composer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFM1aW82IiA
Another RDB hit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C9RdAOD2Wg
And this one’s from the same movie on the same actor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81VRoWJLkN0
Mr.Surajit Bose:
You seem to be going round and round with the same old doctrines. You claim not to have contradicted yourself. But see how many of them are there in this post alone.
#1.”Of course, if you go by using the narrow criteria that “rafi sang semi-classical songs and ghazals while kishore didn’t†and conclude that therefore rafi is a better singer than kishore”
Read it along with
“You need to dig deeper. And for that, you need to have a keen ear, for classical and light music”.
in the same para
Do I have to comment? Isn’t it plain enough?
I have to say it’s the first time I’m hearing that ‘one needs to have a classical ear to appreciate and analyse a singer who has never sung a classical song’.
#2. “there is a difference between not singing and not being able to sing. In Kishore’s case, we have no way of knowing because he was never given the opportunity.” Not exactly contradictory but very funny, reminds me of some of the Rajnikanth fans in the South who says “Rajni is better than Kamal, he can play all roles- blind man, lady, mentally challenged.. everything, but these directors aren’t giving him such roles…”
So dear Rafians, Rafi sahab did the mistake of singing all the different kind of songs, otherwise he would have been the greatest because we wouldn’t know what all he could have done, if given a chance.
#3.”Salil da once said that it wasn’t until kishore sang for him “koi hota jisko apna†from “mere apne†in 1972 did he realize how much he underestimated kishore’s potential. He admitted that most music directors, including himself, refused to listen to kishore once they found out that he had no formal training in music.”
read it with
“And I don’t need to use quotes from other singers or MD’s to prove or disprove my point.”
The verdict, dear Rafians, is that one may quote Salilda, Anil Biswas (and/or may be SDB, RDB) but not others 2 prove/disprove something when it comes to Rafisahab vis-a-vis Kishoreda.
#4. “Rafi sang semi-classical songs, yes, but did he render them well enough to pass them off as good examples of classical songs ?”
Off course not, semi-classical songs can obviously not pass off as examples of classical songs.
#5. “For those of you who say kishore’s songs lacked technical rigour or his voice lacked refinement, I would urge you to listen to his songs composed by Anil Biswas, Sajjad Hussain, Khemchand Prakash and other older MDs. If you don’t have those songs but are interested, I can email them to you.”
Again not contradictory but ironical and even sad. Kishoreda has sung many technically complex songs with refined voice but no one has heard them, they were all busy listening to Rafisahab, Mannada & Co.
Dear Bose,
your words ‘I was quick enough to realize how difficult it is to reproduce Kishore’s songs’do you why because maybe u are singer and KK was not a singer!!!!!!!at the day time you can see the moon i can’t do anything for you jest I hope God help you.
I hope u know about sport because I want ask If Brazil play with India who will win?your answer will be India because who don’t what we are speaking about because when some speak about Brazil that mean Football!!!!!!!!
Jest listen to Mohd Rafi song from flim Johar in Kashmir.
Dear Bose do know who is Madan Mohan?Do u know who is Shammi Kapoor?do you know who is OPN?
are you child age of 7 ?!!!
I realized I had posted my views in the wrong thread. Instead of posting them here, I posted them in the RD-Rafi thread, my apologies in advance. Here is my post (Admin, please delete this same post from the RD-Rafi thread):
———————————
I request Rafi fans here to ignore Mr. Bose’s posts as they are just his opinions and not facts. Anyone who has any idea of classical music, singing, and music in general will know that Rafi is the greatest of them all, and most people in music all agree as well. Like I said before, even if these music personalities did not agree, it would not change the fact that Rafi saab is the greatest of all time.
One person (or more) coming into this forum and trying to impose his views and wanting to teach us nonsense won’t make a difference. I would continue to reply to the nonsense, but its a waste of time and not worth it, as I and others have made ourselves clear. Mr Bose’s hilarious posts have already been exposed for their lack of knowledge, wrong facts, and other trash, and the only thing to come out of his writing is his opinions, and that’s it, nothing else. So whatever he says should be taken as only an opinion and nothing concrete or worthy of discussion because anyone who has knowledge in music will know what he is saying is wrong and not true. Why stoop down to that level ?, just simply ignore such posts.
I urge others not to get provoked by such nonsense, and just let it be, because we all know who’s right and who’s wrong. I hope this forum doesn’t turn into another RMIM, where people post for the sake of posting, and there is absolutely no sense of musical knowledge but just opinions passed off as facts. The debates over there are stupid, and a waste of time, something it seems Mr. Bose wants to carry over here. It’s ok to have an opinion, but to pass it off as a fact or alter the truth is crossing the line. I hope we don’t get RMIM or other bad influence on this forum of very knowledgeable people, but it seems some people from there and elsewhere want to go to great places such as here and create nonsense. RMIM used to be great a long time ago (not as great as here ofcourse but great in its own way), until some people claiming they knew music came and started talking nonsense like the posts we have seen here of late. Now that place is just crazy, and I really hope this forum doesn’t turn into something like that. I also hope we don’t get such people on this forum, because this forum is not for such people, but for those who are knowledeable and want to discuss true music. I am confident this forum will continue to shine bright and not turn into another crazy place, as long as the knowledgeable people are here to counter such rubbish. Mr. Bose has his motives, and that is to create disharmony among all of us here, however it will never work.
Kishore was a no body compared to Rafi, and so were many others, its a well known fact, and its pointless really to talk about a comparison or bring Rafi down to Kishore’s level. The more Kishore fans try to defend their case, the worse it gets. Statements like “didn’t get a chance to singâ€, or “busy acting†(this is a trademark KK statement), or “you shouldn’t look at only classical music but light musicâ€, or “its not easy to prove Rafi was better than Kishore†(when it really is very easy) are all insecure statements, out of jealousy and hate, and is all rubbish and makes Kishore look even more silly. They’re a lot of nonsense and contradictions in most things unknowledgeable KK fans mention, that they get mixed up as to what they’re actually saying, quite hilarious I must say. I have many personal friends who are hardcore Kishore fans but who are very knowledeable and they will never dare to put Kishore in the same league as Rafi, even though their favourite is Kishore. These are called “knowledgeable fansâ€, people you can respect, and learn from.
Everyone knows Rafi was and is the best and the most complete singer ever, yet others try to find holes and chinks which they will never be able to find.
Post 1172: No one will believe you that Kishore was greater than Rafi Saheb. World knows facts about Rafi Saheb. He was a true musical genius. Kishore was as ordinary singer. KK should thank his friend RDB for giving him a chance.
for s.bose’s knowledge of music let me inform him that the son of anil biswas understanding his fathers “biggest blunder”, rushed to rafi saaheb’s house to request a recording with him. rafi immediately agreed , offered him tea and made him comfortable.
another guest sitting was shocked seeing rafi’s behaviour. he was marathi composer srikkanth thackeray – brother of balasaheb and father of raj.
after biswas junior left srikanth wondered how rafi could be so kind to a person s son whose father had at every microphone he got to use – derated mohd rafi saaheb. the divine singers answered back with “just a smile”.
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anil biswas is dead and gone. may his soul rest in peace. can someone now give me a list of his “remembered, popular, and evergreen twenty songs”?
this is a difficult subject as i know that many composers such as anil biswas and few are fogotten – long back howmuchever they were successful in thier great days. times, change. tastes change, generations change. after every twenty years there is a “music churning” taking place.
mohd rafi stood his ground very close to forty years and surabjit bose can’t digest this reality. poor soul.
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my thanks to myk for the replies he gave to this half knowledged music buff and mischief monger apart from mohd rafi lovers whotook part in the debate. as, myk rightly said : ” he distributed “dirt” and he got the same back in good measure.
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binu nair, mumbai………………….
Mr. anil cherian,
ref: post # 1154
well, i didn’t mean it as a compliment when i included you in that group. you are welcome to take it as one, though. 🙂
you said: “Wrong there, it’s actually a very easy task. Just ask yourself how many times you had to contradict yourself to prove otherwise.”
Nope, it’s not an easy task. Otherwise I wouldn’t bring it up. If you care to read my posts, you will see that every time I took a song to discuss, I highlighted what aspect of the song I was talking about. So, I didn’t have to contradict myself. Of course, if you go by using the narrow criteria that “rafi sang semi-classical songs and ghazals while kishore didn’t” and conclude that therefore rafi is a better singer than kishore, then it is probably an easy task. You need to dig deeper. And for that, you need to have a keen ear, for classical and light music. Further more, there is a difference between not singing and not being able to sing. In Kishore’s case, we have no way of knowing because he was never given the opportunity.
Salil da once said that it wasn’t until kishore sang for him “koi hota jisko apna” from “mere apne” in 1972 did he realize how much he underestimated kishore’s potential. He admitted that most music directors, including himself, refused to listen to kishore once they found out that he had no formal training in music.
For those of you who say kishore’s songs lacked technical rigour or his voice lacked refinement, I would urge you to listen to his songs composed by Anil Biswas, Sajjad Hussain, Khemchand Prakash and other older MDs. If you don’t have those songs but are interested, I can email them to you.
you said: “This is actually a ’superficial’ statement. Tell me whose songs are conventional, Rafisahab’s? Mannada’s? Please listen to the film songs (not necessarily HFM) that are being churned out today and tell me whose songs they are similar to. Can you indicate any “poocho no kaise..â€, “Man re..†or “Rang aur noor…†among the lot? Infact Kishoreda’s songs are the conventional ones from a strict film song perspective. And most people make only a superficial analysis of Kishoreda’s songs not because ‘they fall outside the conventional song structure’, rather it’s because those songs are not meant for anything more. If in doubt ask Mannada and please don’t paste link to a Mannnada interview where he’s praising Kishoreda.”
When we are talking about film music from ’50’s and ’60’s, it’s easy to see what is conventional/traditional and what is not. Well, if you judge songs from ’50’s and ’60’s with songs that are being churned out today, you might be right. But, during that period, it was kishore who was more of the unconventional singer.
So, what you are saying is “Paanch rupaiyya barah aana” or “cheel cheel chilake kajri sunaaye” or “aake seedhi lagi dil pe” or “eena meena deeka” or other such songs of kishore were conventional while songs like “man re tu kahe na dhiir dhare” or “zindagi bhar nahin bhoolegi” or “chaudavin ka chand ho” were not conventional. Looking at these songs, it is easy to see who falls into the more traditional category.
You assume that the latter type of song is superior to the former, and hence the latter type of singer is superior to the former. This is because you ‘think’ that the latter film song is more difficult to render than the former or rather the latter type of song calls for more vocal skills, and also because the latter type of song adheres more strictly to well-known ragas or at least their nearabouts. That is what I meant by superficial analysis.
Obviously, all of these come into picture only based on the presumption that the singer doesn’t go off-key or “besura” or fall off the rhythm or make any other basic mistakes. (That condition itself disqualifies singers like Kumar Sanu).
How many types of songs a singer has sung is secondary to how well that singer has sung those songs. Rafi sang semi-classical songs, yes, but did he render them well enough to pass them off as good examples of classical songs ? No, not even close. And I don’t need to use quotes from other singers or MD’s to prove or disprove my point. If you do not have a classical grounding, you will not agree with what I say. And I have no desire to make you agree.
Personally, I might enjoy “zindagi bhar nahin bhoolegi” more than “main hoon jhumroo”, but that doesn’t mean that the former song is superior to the latter or the former singer is superior to the latter. In most cases, taste has nothing to do with how difficult it is to render a song. Unfortunately, that is the first line of attack used against Kishore. Most here use a line of debating based on asking questions. So, they pose a question like “Can Kishore sing “man re tu kahe na dhiir dhare” ?” or “zindagi bhar nahin bhoolegi” as well as Rafi ? Well, the answer is no, he cannot. But then, neither can Rafi sing “Jeevan ke safar mein raahi” or “Eena meena deeka” as well as kishore. Using this line of reasoning is not objective and does not prove anything. That was what I meant by “superficial analysis”.
Another line of attack used against Kishore is the allegation that kishore’s songs are “technically” easy to render. For example, at a glance, it appears that “man re tu kahe na dhiir dhare” is more difficult to render than “hum the woh thi aur samaa rangeen”. However, a quick attempt at reproducing both songs will immediately tell you that it takes amazing voice control and musical gifts as a singer to sing like kishore. There are many such songs of kishore. You are just looking at the wrong examples.
I don’t have to ask Manna da or anybody else what they think about Rafi or Kishore. I have tried singing songs from all singers, and I was quick enough to realize how difficult it is to reproduce Kishore’s songs. He was a true musical genius.
Mr. XXX (Ref. Post 1161):
Thanks for bringing up an oustanding combination. Rafi-Naushad is a landmark association in the history of HFM. In the 60’s, they also produced many jewels for us to cherish forever. These songs were great in every aspect, be it melody, lyrics, orchestration, soul etc. Just is the case with SDB, MM, Roshan and most other great and legendary composers, only Rafi could sing Naushad’s tunes, and only Rafi had the capabilities to bring out the true essence of Naushad’s melodies. Here are my Top 15 songs from Naushad-Rafi in the 60’s:
1. Mere Mehboob Tujhe – Mere Mehboob
2. Tum Se Izhare Hal – Mere Mehboob
3. Aye Husn Zara – Mere Mehboob
4. Dil Todne Wale – Son Of India
5. Na Aadmi Ka Koi Bharosa – Aadmi
6. Aaj Purani Rahon Se – Aadmi
7. Guzre Hain Aaj Ishq – Dil Diya Dard Liya
8. Mujhe Duniyawalon – Leader
9. Ek Shahenshah – Leader
10. Madhuban Mein Radhika – Kohinoor
12. Dhal Chuki Shaam-e-Gam – Kohinoor
13. Aaj Ki Raat – Ram Aur Shyam
14. Jab Dil Se Dil Takrata Hai – Sangharsh
15. Kal Raat Zindagi Se – Palki
why KK fans most of topics in KK site there is Mohd Rafi name?why u kk fans try to comapare him with Mohd Rafi?jest compare songs of 60’s and 70’s u will get the answer,compare songs of Shammi Kapoor and Rajesh Khanna u will get the answer,jest comapare SD songs with RD songs u will get the answer,jest think of Anil Biswas who was at the top in 1940’s and what happened to him,jest think of Naushand how he became the king in 1950’s.
would please answer me the best romantic song of Rajesh Khann and Mr Bachchan?
Acor like Dharam Ji he switch to KK in 1970’s but he back again to Mohd Rafi same Dev Ananad Ji,The actors who was giving hit in 1960’s with Mohd Rafi do u know what happened to them when they used kk?
people like OPN,LP,Mandan Mohan and many more who feel that there songs was hit boz of Mohd Rafi what else you KK fans want!!!!give one MD who said that he is great boz of KK please don’t say Rajesh Khanna if u say that ur wrong boz Rajesh Khanna said that KK match his voice so well with him not as said by Shammi Kapoor Ji..
I should say u people are listening to Mohd rafi and you feel that is KK?!!!!!!!!!only thing i can say when you compae mohd rafi with KK.
i love KK as actor I feel If KK used Mohd Rafi voice as actor today KK was more famous as actor as today as our Shammi Kapoor Ji as I think…
kishore kumar lovers will never come out of the shadows of the indisputable melody king – mohd rafi.
they will always, always and always undermine kishore kumar by talking about and comparing him with mohd rafi.
this is called the mohd rafi “phobia” dear kishore lovers. please get rid of this phobia at the earliest. a psychological doctor too can guide you all in the event of incure of this disorder.
binu nair.
If Anil Biswas Ji don’t like Mohd Rafi Is it mean that Mohd Rafi not great singer as I know that OP nayar gave more hit than Anil Biswas what about he said about Lata Ji?!!!
M Rafi singed more than 12 songs for Anil Ji but Lata Ji never singed for OP Nayar.!!!!what said said by OP Nayar about Lata do u think that is True?Do u know that Anil Biswas liked Talat Ji more than any other male singer? ask yourself and answer who is better singer M Rafi or Talat ji as said by Anil Biswas Ji!!!!!!!!!!!!!?
We never say bad about Kk or any other singer as Mohd rafi fans but there are some thing true about them you feel that we saying bad thing about them..If we say that KK had 4 wife’s and he changed his name and became muslim to Marry do u think that is the bad thing about KK but that is true.
If you want to compare Mohd Rafi with any male singer there is only one singer that is Mohd Rafi himself.
Mr.XXX:
Thanks for pointing out the mix-up. Here goes the actual song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQs8M4Ohkmk.
All:
The song made me cry again as I was listening to it just now, despite the mediocre audio quality of the clip.
Here’s another gem from the same composer-singer team that will hit you ‘halke…. halke…’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Oqmz1pPXuU
here’s a legendry song from the same team
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbxP-Kd24mM
another beauty from the same movie (this song has been mentioned by Dhaniram sir in a recent post)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAX-QXJ3TPc
s. bose : its very clear that u do not have much info on husanlal & bhagatram and hence the statement from you that this team “did not” give songs to rafi ji. now, i will tell you something about c.ramachandra whom you have quoted to prove your nefarious viewpoints. c.r. lamented the fact that a lady singer had used him to undermine rafi saaheb. he was very close to this singer and he paid a big price – when the fallout happened.
In may 1980, c.r. recorded some songs in telugu with rafi saaheb and c.r.was one composer who cried the most in july 1980 when rafi saaheb made his final exit from the scene.
we will give you more details of composers who lost out not using mohd rafi saaheb – only because you asked for it.
binu nair, mumbai.
Also, there is a clear difference between commenting on someone’s writing, views and opinions
AND
commenting on someone’s character or making personal comments about someone. I hope Mr. Bose understands the difference.
Anyways, whatever Mr. Bose mentioned was his opinion (and in my view total nonsense), and its good that the “funny” and “hilarious” discussion is over.
Post 1155: Those who didn’t work with Rafi Saheb, it was their misfortunate. Anil Biswas, C. Ramchandra… were ordinary music directors. Music directors like Ravi, Chitragupt, gave more hits and nice songs than C. Ramchandra and Anil Biswas. Further more, it should be noted that Rafi Saheb sang more songs for Anil Biswas and C. Ramchandra than Kishore Kumar.
re p 1156 & 1157::
Great choice of songs mr.cherian, i love all of them, but i am sure that lilting joyful melody of “aise to na dekho” would never lead anyone to cry.. please come up with actual song…
Regards..
“Also, I never insulted rafi. All I claimed was his “classical†singing is not as classical as everyone thinks. It is all of you so called rafi fans who are insulting kishore.”
By bringing him down to the level of Kishore and Saigal, you have insulted Rafi. You may have your opinions, but don’t try and make it a fact when it is not a fact and never will be one. Rafi was the best in classical singing (as one can see for themselves and as pointed out by a countless number of music personalities), and nothing you say or do will change that. Also, for your info, no Rafi fan has insulted Kishore. You wrote nonsense, so you were given back nonsense to counter your weird ideas.
“And some posters like yourself, myk, anil cherian etc. finally resorted to passing personal comments about me”
I never personally insulted Mr. Bose. All I said (along with everyone else) was that his knowledge level is not up to the mark and what he is writing is pure nonsense. This is commenting on what he is writing and nothing to do with his nature or character.
ref to 1140::
Hello mr.myk,
Sorry for delay in reply… the two songs that you have mentioned are gems indeed, in fact “dil ka dard niraala” is most underrated gem of rafi-sd pair and as you mentioned use of violins is amazing. now if i am not wrong, “manmohan mann mein ho tumhi” is also from the same movie which is also great to listen. overall i rate this album as good as sd’s “kala-pani” or “kala-bazaar”. sd-rafi pair was great.. btw, mr.myk, i am curious to know your take on rafi-naushad pair from 60s, as we know that naushad ruled 40s and 50s but 60s was downfall for naushad(in quantity), still he came up with many excellent songs, in fact he composed many of the best songs of 60s which of course rendered by rafi ji. naushad definitely did less movies compared to others but in quality he was right there at the top. although i equally love rafi-roshan, rafi-sd and rafi-mm combo but rafi-naushad for me is right there at the top, their association was the powerhouse of quality and melody . what do you think of this combo(from 60s)?
also could you please share your top-15 songs of rafi-naushad(from 60s) here with us? here goes my fav 15 songs of rafi-naushad from 60s(in no particular order)::
1.Ishq diwana husn bhi ghayal, dono taraf ek dard-e-jigar hai.
2.Aey husn zara jaag tujhe ishq jagaye.
3.Kal raat zindagi se mulakat ho gayi.
4.Madhuban mein radhika naache re
5.nain lad jai hain to manwa mein kasak
6.Jab dil se dil takraata hai.
7.aaj purani raahon se koi hame aawaz na de
8.na aadmi ka koi bharosa, na dosti ka koi thikana.
9.main tooti hui ek naiya hoon…
10.aaj ki raat mere dil ki salami lele
11.do sitaro ka milan(duet)
12.yaad mein teri jaag jaag ke ham(duet).
13.Kaisi haseen aaj baharon ki raat hai(duet with talat).
14.koi saagar dil ko behlata nahi
15.apni aazadi ko ham hargis mita sakte nahi.
Surabjit bose, Post no. 1155 a reply:
u are again caught on the wrong foot, yet again. yes , you have said in your post no.992 that C.ramchandra, Khemchand Prakash, anil biswas and husanlal-bhagatram “rarely” used Mohd Rafi and that u treat “it” as rafi’s weakness. now , you are forgetting things or denying what you yourself wrote.
mohd rafi was the main playback singer of husanlal & bhagatram and they have done many many concerts together ( i have repeatedly said this) . please get your facts and knowledge right, mr. bose.
what has happened with you is that to prove one “wrong point”, you have to take the assistance/support of many many wrong premises and ur agenda to prove ur singer the best has confused you to such an extent that you go all out to provide wrong premises and information coupled with ur scanty information of the hindi music scene of the last 60 years.
in the same post (992) you have this to say about : Rajesh Roshan :” Talent-less composers such as rajesh roshan became famous due to Kishore Kumar singing for him.”
What a pathetic, mean and dubious comment. I pity ur sense of music history.
more, your initial post : no.949 is full of fallacies/mischief/confusion and your sinister design can be seen threadbare. u say that mohd rafi was not very adept at classical singing. right, he was never a classical singer. he sang semi-classical songs in hindi films along with different types of movie songs according to the needs of the directors and composers for the specific situations. here he did not need to show his hindustani music skills. ur sinister mind arrives at the conclusion that “since rafi had flaws in his classical singing, kishore kumar is a better singer than rafi. what could be more “pitiable” than this comment.
ur further say that rafis “higher pitch” song is of no great significance in hindustani music.
Sir, we are discussing hindi film songs of mohd rafi and our subject is not hindustani music.
please get clear of your “great confusions”, your “mindset” and stop writing self contradictory write-ups. also please brush up your knowledge of hindi film music along with your classical training and please never mix up the two. u many blend them like our great composers like naushad saaheb, shankar jaikishan, l.p., s.d.burman and all others.
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rafi lovers may revert to the sound write-ups of haldar ji (post 1006), sudip ji (post 1003 and of anil cherian and dhani ram too , in this section and pass their judgements on the various slanders – propagated by mr.s.bose.
binu nair, mumbai…… binus2000@hotmail.com
Dear surajit bose,
no doubt that kk was a great singer , but rafi sahab is rafi sahab, two months ago i had a discussion with amit kumar in hotel hayaat- kolkata , about rafi sahab , he told me that one day his car had got some problem and was not taking starts, rafi sahab was in the same studoi and about to leave and he offered amit kumar a left till his house . rafi sahab droped amit kumar and went off. kishore da was in the house that time , he asked who droped you . amit said rafi sahab , kishore da said why you did’nt take him to the house. ” Are woh r a f i s a h a b the.
MR. SURAJIT BOSE:
REF POST# 1155. MAY I KNOW WHEN I “FINALLY RESORTED TO PASSING PERSONAL COMMENTS ABOUT YOU”?
Here is one song which makes me cry everytime I listen to it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCl7VLQARkk
Here is another gem from the same trio (Rafisahab- Sunil Dutt- Madan Mohan):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeAG9EBR5A8
Another gem, this time from a sher-e-punjab:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD5NYaYM19E
And, a superb song from a superb musical:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjB61sfhojo
Here is ‘main nigahen……’ (cited by Dhaniram sir-post#1144)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X1SmCj8ME4
Here is ‘ Dil ka dard nirala….’ (cited by Mr.Myk- post#1140)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppguIG-Ugno
And here is a personal favourite of yours truly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCl7VLQARkk
To Binu Nair,
Please do not put words into my mouth. Where did I say that Husnlal and Bhagatram did not like rafi ? I never said that. I said two different things and you are trying to mix them up. I said:
1. Anil Biswas didn’t think highly of rafi as a singer.
2. You always talk about SDB and RDB when you talk about kishore. I said kishore also sang for other great music directors like “husnlal bhagatram”, khemchand prakash, sajjad hussain, anil biswas etc.
That was the only statement where I included husnlal and bhagatram.
Don’t try to mix these two statements into something which I never said.
Also, I never insulted rafi. All I claimed was his “classical” singing is not as classical as everyone thinks. It is all of you so called rafi fans who are insulting kishore. And some posters like yourself, myk, anil cherian etc. finally resorted to passing personal comments about me.
for example, you said: “as i said earlier in a free discussion or a feast, one has to tolerate such senile men – such as the fault finders of the great feast and the self styled and deplorable commentators such as surabjit bose.”
It’s below my dignity to respond to such posters.
Only Sudip was civilized enough and open minded enough to actually listen to what I had to say. That’s why I haven’t responded to any other posts except Sudip’s.
You can take this any way you want. I am not going to argue with you further.
Bye.
Mr.Surajit:
Ref: Post#1103. Thanks for bracketing me along with some senior and knowledgable Rafians.
Ref: Post# 1135 (addressed to yourself). “enjoying songs of both kishore and rafi are not mutually exclusive events”. Exactly, that’s why most of us like listening to Kishoreda.
“my basic criticism of rafi stems from the fact that it is not easy as it appears to prove that rafi was a “better†singer than kishore”. Wrong there, it’s actually a very easy task. Just ask yourself howmany times you had to contradict yourself to prove otherwise.
“most people only make a superficial analysis of kishore’s songs given that most of his songs fall outside, what you would call, the conventional musical structure”. This is actually a ‘superficial’ statement. Tell me whose songs are conventional, Rafisahab’s? Mannada’s? Please listen to the film songs (not necessarily HFM) that are being churned out today and tell me whose songs they are similar to. Can you indicate any “poocho no kaise..”, “Man re..” or “Rang aur noor…” among the lot? Infact Kishoreda’s songs are the conventional ones from a strict film song perspective. And most people make only a superficial analysis of Kishoreda’s songs not because ‘they fall outside the conventional song structure’, rather it’s because those songs are not meant for anything more. If in doubt ask Mannada and please don’t paste link to a Mannnada interview where he’s praising Kishoreda.
post 1146…. it should read as : haldar saaheb ne kaha tha is manoos ko bhool jaoo……………………………….
=I thank the great mohd rafi lovers who answered to this thick skinned kishore kumar lover who is also mannerless.. doosron ke ghar mein aakar ghar waalon ko bahut burra kehna – yeh hamara sanskriti nahin hai….in ko to ache sangeet sun-na hai aur manner bhi seekhna hai. next time , take care and think a thousand times before publishing your baseless doctrines and proving to be a ‘foolish’ person – indeed. meantime, please listen to the mohd rafi gems tuned by husanlal and bhagatram, the first music duo ever in h.f.m. for whom mohd rafi was their main male singer.
what can one Rafisab? He is G..R..E..A…T
Poser to Surajit Bose,
Why was kishoreda not given songs based on classical music unlike innumerable songs of Rafi sahab and Manna da?
Why has kishore da whom you rate superior to all has no Ghazals which was a rage in the golden era ?
Why has kishore da not sung any non-filmi hindi bhajans which are available in plenty in other’s voices?
Why Kishoreda’s quavalis lacked the expertise of Rafi sahab n Manna da?