True Voice – Mohd Rafi
The following article was brought to my notice when Sharad posted it on MAS. The article has been trimmed down a bit keeping afloat Rafi details. However, anyone interested can go visit the source at http://tfmpage.com/forum/4980.6302.04.57.19.html
I am Swaminatha Iyer and I am 78 years old. I hail from Tiruchi and I am a part of music associations in Tiruchi, M’as as well as in West Bengal and Maharashtra.
I think it is wrong to condemn music or artists on either side of Vindhyas. Our Indian music is one of the few which has not been cleaned off by the western music though there has always been a influence. It speaks a lot of the richness of our music. Sometime back director of MTV had said that MTV westernized the music wherever it went but in India , MTV had to be Indianized for it to be accepted. A lot of this credit goes to the Indian film music.
I have been fortunate to have close personal association with Rafi, Sirkali, TMS, Dr. BMK, Kishore, SPB & KJY, PS, Mannadey and the one and only Lata Mangeshkar.
Comparisons are bound to come, but almost every artist or I have met considers Lata to be beyond comparison. Her talents are beyond anyone’s reach. Even Sirkazi used to talk of her singing like a die-hard fan as do countless others.
Now coming to the Rafi-SPB discussion. It might be difficult to convince an South Indian to believe Rafi is the better and at the same time Rafi crowd will never believe any other male singer comes anywhere nearer. There is one more mobile crowd, which is well conversant with Hindi and some south Indian language. Majority of them tilt to either Rafi or Kishore.
During one of my stays in M’as I had stayed with SPB. While talking of true voices he said, I don’t feel like half a singer when listening to Rafi. True voice is not a tech term but many in circle use it. Perfect example would be lata, but to understand consider our own PS who within her range is superb. People who do not have such true voices can never do justice to original. They generally underplay many parts of the song or fake it with bass/superficial singing. True voices make people like Sirkazi, Nusrat Fateh Ali khan, Lata… Inimitable. However since Sirkazi and Nusrat did not have the filmy voices their “real” following is limited to their local arena.
In addition to the true voice if the singer has a very good voice then in “most” cases he/she can better songs of others. It is this combination which makes Rafi stand out among the other male singers. There are many here who seem to have mistaken notions on a good bass and also on high pitch.
Bryan Adams does not require a monster bass in “Summer of 69” to sound real manly. It is the punch which gives that feel and that is decided only by the comfort level in most ranges (that is by what your throat can support). This you CAN never disguise with bass. Since people have talked about lack of manly voice viz. a viz. Rafi it was necessary to bring this point out. I have had the fortune of listening to most singers in studio and some times without a mike, practicing with MD’s.When Lata or Rafi do, the level is so high that people hesitate to even hum. It felt silly to sing in their presence (and it feels silly when someone says his voice isn’t manly).
In RD’s tribute when SPB sang “Aaja Aaja mein hoon” or “Chaand mera dil” it sounded only sweet and lacked punch if you compare with Rafi’s original.
Yesu once told me God has been partial to Rafi. He said “god gift term anavasyamaa romba common aa ippo use aardu”.. but idu Rafi kee thaan 100% porundu”. This person could sing “as intricately as a lady without sounding thin”, “cover any mood”, “versatility odey perfect example Rafi”. Yesu said most important is the comfort level over ranges which makes you feel God has been partial to Rafi. (But Of course in Rafi’s early career (1950’s) the voice was relatively feeble).
To people exposed to Rafi’s talent, these or any amount of praise can only seem less. I just wish he was alive and you people could get a live chance to hear him. Probably you can get hold of the DD album for the Geet Gaata Chal series where the first four episodes were dedicated to Rafi. Rafi is on camera singing “O Duniya Ke Rakwaaley” and many other songs. If you see and hear the last part you will realize why SPB said “impossible”. I think particularly those people who have talked about scales w.r.t Rafi should see this album. Its a known fact in industry that Rafi ruled high pitch and there is no male singer better in switching notes so easily. There are artists who can go beyond but then they sound strained or they don’t have pleasant voices when they venture into those territories.
Many singers of today are his compulsive followers. But they end up inheriting only part of his quality. Md. Aziz ended up with a sad voice. Mahendra Kapoor with a thick nasal voice. Anwar with a nasal voice. Sonu Nigam with a feminine voice. Rafi neither had a soft voice nor a heavy (bass) voice he had a good voice. Importantly did not strain at high notes, and voice if at all only became better at higher notes. If you see him singing it will remind you of Janaki. However diff the song is or the note is he will be smiling and singing. It is unthinkable that he cannot sing something.
There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo” song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect. There are lot of other songs of SPB where this great singer has played with songs in total control. You will find most south Indian singers who have had a good exposure say that it is beneficial to learn Hindustani as it gives better breath control and improves expression.
Rafi was not only able to glide over a song, the important thing was that he could express each word/sound when singing. It is one thing to hold your breath, start and reach a crescendo (high note), as like in “Shankara”, “Anbey (Yennai kaan villaye)” it is different ballgame if you have to do it from low notes or suddenly switch notes. With practice the former can be done, latter requires a special gift. Rafi had a natural ability to do the latter. In “Tum joh mil gaye ho” there is such a transition in the “karwaan mil gaya” part. I have never seen anyone do justice to most of his songs in my life time. In “parda hai parda” quawaali the similar part is “kar doon to, Akbar mera naam”. In fact most of his songs will have these specialty as it was his natural ability to sing freely in a wide range at the same time giving that extra expression.
Whereas SPB takes us to heavens with “Idu oru pon maali”,”Ilaya nila” “bisiladarenu”(kannada), when he sings Rafi’s song it lacks the punch or expression, though it has the bass. But at least most agree that SPB does some justice to original, whereas most others murder the original.
One trivial point I would like to add is that singing in Hindi is harder. There are more “JHA”,”CHA”,”HA”,”THA”, “KHA”,”JA”,”FA”. These take away the breath faster. The more expressive you are the more air you are using up. Just singing from Nabhi will not help, your throat also needs to do a lot, for singing in Hindi, Bengali etc. SPB makes you fall in love with his south Indian songs but same cannot be said about his Hindi songs. If you just glide through words having these sounds, you will never be expressive. Doing this as well as reaching high notes is not easy. Rafi had this gift and that’s why it is difficult to imagine anyone else in his shoes. Song “Chalkaaye jaam” has so much expression that it is unthinkable how anyone can sing it. When Rafi switches to a high note with “Mitwaa” in the song “Chaahunga mein tughey” you cannot replicate it with bass. Most others will sound as if they are shouting in such cases. That man’s throat had the ability to freely sing at such levels.
Versatility is not just the ability to sing in various styles, more important is how good you are singing in those styles. You have lot of Ghazal singers today but when Rafi sings a Ghazal you will sit up and take notice. You don’t have to be part of the Ghazal listeners crowd. This is one important aspect. Whatever style you sing you should be able to pull the common man to listen and not just a particular crowd. Pick “parda hai parda” or any qawalli and it will stand tall among other qawalli’s.
Variety is amazing :
songs of Guru Dutt’s Khagaz key phool or songs like abhi naa jao chod key, Aaja teri yaad aayi, Aaj kal mein dhal gaya, Aaj kal terey merey pyaar, Aasmaan sey aaya farishta, Dil ney pyaar kiya hai, Deewana mujh saa nahi, Din dhal jaaye, Duniya paagal hai, Jaane walon jara, Dil joh na kaha saka, Dil key jharokon mein, Dil kaa bhavar, Chalkey teri aakkhon sey, Kar chaley hum fida, khilona jaan kar tum, Woh jab yaad aay, Woh hain jara khafa, Vaadian mera daaman, Pathar key sanam, Chaand mera dil, Main zindagi kaa saath, Mainey poocha chaand sey, sun sun jaalima, Koi jab raah na paay, hum to chaley pardes, badan pey sitaarey, laal chadi maidaan, Tum jo mil gaye, O meri shaahey, Sau baar janam lengey, Tum mujhey yoon bhula, Tumney mujhey dekha, Terey merey sapney, Tumny pukaara hum chaley aay
Name a situation/mood and Rafi’s song will be there on the top.
Swami
Post 1286 – Hussein Sheikh ji,
Pl. read my posts 1284 and 1285 and argue (you are posting only one line without arguments) in a unbiased way with clear terms. That should be answer to your post. (Otherwise, i have to treat you as a pure fanboy – read my post 1284 – 2nd para 1st line – arguments are waste. But truth is truth)
Mr. Raju – Your posts 1296 and 97
I appreciate your analysis. You have caught correctly the true meaning of my message. Pl. keep it up.
MYK Sir, – I am awaiting your esteemed analysis for my posts 1284 and 1285
Sudipji:
Agree with you, totally (post# 1288). I really liked your decathelete parable, would like to draw up another parable from the sports field. Rafisahab is like the Roger Federer (at his prime)of singing. There’s nothing he cannot do well. There may be a bigger server (read a more resonating voice), a better athelete (read a better trained singer), so on and so forth but none can really touch him in toto.
Ponnapsji:
I wouldn’t rate KK in the same league as Mannada or Talat saab, as a singer per se. As a (popular) play-backer, yes, he’s very much up there (even above these two).
Mykji:
“His songs and singing may be great, and he was a good singer “within his rangeâ€, but they’re/he’s great until you’ve heard Rafi or Lata or Yesudas or Mukesh or Asha or SPB etc., then they/he becomes “average†and falls behind”.
Very true; personally speaking, I found KK’s ‘mere naina….” irresistable till I listened to SPB’s version of the song.
Mr.Swamy:
Hope you wouldn’t mind some comments from me, unsolicited.
I’m with you on many of your points but would beg to differ on many others. I agree that Ghantasalaji is great musician (to term him just a ‘singer’ would be an insult to him), who had mastered Carnatic musicals the way not many people have done. Along with technical finesse he had a ‘filmy’ voice when we speak about the Telugu (and indeed the South Indian) film industry of the ’50s, ’60s. So it was natural he dominated the industry the way he did. However there are a lot of areas where he’s not there in Rafisahab’s league. For instance, Rafisahab had this God-given, universally appealing voice which draws listeners to him. Personally I got hooked to him because of the voice, not because of the lyrics of the songs (I couldn’t grasp most of it when I was young, being a Keralite). And it’s this voice (which has several dimensions to it) that made him the play-backer for the brooding Dilip Kumar, Debonair Dev Anand, The Jumping Jack Shammi Kapoor, the He-man Dharam as well as the sweet boy-next door Rishi. For another thing, Rafisahab possessed this superb (rivalled only by Janaki, IMO) sensitivity to lyrics. Once Rafisahab sang a song, there’s nothing much to add on.. the best anyone can do is to try and copy whatever he’s done (no wonder we have scores of Rafi-clones). I know you would say that it all applied to Ghantasalaji too, but IMO it holds true only from a South Indian perspective; one can’t imagine Ghantasalaji to be a successful play-backer for someone like Dharam or Rishi; nor can we expect him to sing ‘aap ke haseen rukh pe….’ or ‘kehna, ek deewana…’ the way Rafisahab’s done. At the same time one can imagine Rafisahab to be successful in South Indian moviedom too, he may not have sung the ‘padayams’ as well as Ghantasalaji, but would’ve compensated by his own things.
Let me remark something on Rafi V Yesudas also. Actually this is very much a hot topic in orkut and elsewhere (esp. in Yesudas communities and blogs). And I’m pretty sure it can run into several hundred posts even here, if someone really wants to go for it. Personally, I’m avoiding this comparison simply because I don’t think this is the right platform and also because it’s not fair to compare someone with his ‘mahaguru’ (as Das sir terms Rafisahab). And let me reiterate that if at all some one deserves to be compared with Rafisahab in terms of ‘all round’ brilliance, it has to be Yesudas sir.
Mr. MYK and other rafi lovers
With the permission of moderator, a holistic analysis presented here for views of rafi lovers,
This comparison between two legends is like comparison between Birbal and TenaliRamaKrishna, two great intelligent persons in the History, One was with Akbar, and One was in the Vijayanagara Empire. Do you rate Birbal as great because he won the praise and admiration of the great Akbar or TenaliRamaKrishna, who was blessed by Goddess Durga, for his intelligence and wittiness. You have to decide. (I have read somewhere in some website, where ghantasala himself claims that he was blessed by the divine mother, after which he entered the telugu cine field in 1944 and he reigned supreme till he passed away) There lies the answer. (Birbal is more famous than Tenali Rama, because of his association at the national scene, that does not mean Tenali Rama was inferior, because he was associated with a southern empire). What do you say sir’s.
Mr. MYK and other rafi lovers
Good analysis. With the permission of kind moderator, let us have some humour and quiz time now. But a small puzzle or riddle for you. Could you clarify one doubt from legal interpretation view. An average reader who does not know either ghantasala or rafi or kishore, if he reads all messages in this forum, he will draw following conclusion:
You agree that ghantasala is miles ahead than kishore. Kishore overtook rafi from 1970’s onwards (as stated by his fans). Kishore started getting more fan following from 1970 onwards than rafi. Rafi was ahead upto 1970. When Kishore could march ahead than rafi, is not ghantasala greater of the three , as he is greater than kishore. Moreso, ghantasala was not overtaken by anybody as long as he lived , (even after his leaving till today there is no replacement for him as stated by his fans) So how would you solve this puzzle.
Kindly take this in a jovial way to respond. (Nothing personal or biased views on my part please)
To Kk fans Mohd rafi was only singer who was able to sing any song and KK was who was able to make a film in that film he is actor,singer,actress,music director,comedy,or we can say one man show..
Dear swamy
who people will compare Mohd Rafi with k j yesudas or Mannay Day or Talat Ji boz they allready put Mohd Rafi the best, Mr K J Yesudas singed also for bollywood and we we see who singed best about ghantasala jest I know him from Mohd Rafi.com,because of that u can see in my all post I never spoke about him,when people compare KK with mohd rafi that not mean KK is greater than Mannay day or K J Yesudas that because they agreed that mohd rafi is greater than them…..because of that no way to compare.
if kishore is your fixation – it’s a pity . we feel sorry for you surabjit for u have missed some “very melodious” soulful sungs sung by maestro mohd rafi and other great singers like talat mehmood, manna dey and mukesh.
u have missed somethin in your present life by having a one track mindset on kishore kumar. and we know the reason of your having the “single track mindset”
binu nair, mumbai.
Let me comment more about my statement on Kishore:
“most of his songs are easy to sing and have no variations.”
I am very well aware that a Kishore fan has brought up the argument that it is misleading that Kishore’s songs are easy to sing, and I do disagree. Let me just mention, in general, no one can replicate the original of any singer, but when comparing Kishore’s songs to songs by other more talented singers, his songs don’t have that high a degree of difficulty. This is precisely the area that Pancham targeted and was successful in with Kishore. Those straight, simple, trendy tunes were Kishore’s forte, and Pancham totally exploited that avenue. It would be ridiculous to say that Kishore’s songs are as hard to sing, or have a similar degree of difficulty, as Rafi’s songs or Lata’s songs. This is why Kishore’s songs are in fact quite easy to imitate, I have seen many who have been successful at doing so (it doesn’t mean they are better than the originals), whereas many either crucify songs by Rafi, Lata and others or stay away from such songs because of their difficulty.
Rafi and Lata definitely have no peers when it comes to singing, they are the greatest in their field (imo).
post 1280 : a dog’s tail will never turn straight and surabjit is one of those kishore kumar fans – who can never take the superiority of mohd rafi in every range and every kind of songs – ever recorded and rendered in the h.f.m. scene by the legend mohd rafi saahenb. he is back to his old game and now is using – dadagiri language ( to tell it mildly in mumbai parlance ) to show kk superiority which has no takers – at most spaces including herein. his tail always wags for kishore kumar – and let me tell him that – h.m.v. sound is hoarse, non-melodious in most of the songs he sung, hmv considered mohd rafi as his guru, hmv lip-synched in rafi voice for many songs, had great amount of inferiority complex with rafi around, was and is over-hyped, a candidate of a great music lobby of the seventies which flopped as soon as it was formed and one – history if ever will remember most for his non-music qualities. surabjit needs urgent consultations now from an ear surgeon. Binu Nair… Mumbai.
Let me just mention that I am very well aware of Kishore’s complete repertoire of songs, Thanks to my friends who are die hard Kishore fans and who have most of his songs. These include the rare of the rare compositions, as well as Kishore’s own composed songs. Kishore did not exhibit anything extraordinary that was “jaw dropping” to me, something that took me to a different world, something which made me go “wow”. Kishore doesn’t have songs that cover a huge range of notes, most of his songs are easy to sing and have no variations, his repertoire lacks the variety that others have. His songs and singing may be great, and he was a good singer “within his range”, but they’re/he’s great until you’ve heard Rafi or Lata or Yesudas or Mukesh or Asha or SPB etc., then they/he becomes “average” and falls behind. He had many limitations, many of my friends who are die-hard Kishore fans even admit that (one can clearly see this anyways), and putting him in the same league as Rafi and others, or giving him unnecessary praise, is in my opinion, nonsense. I love many of Kishore’s songs, they are nice, but its definitely a “no no” when discussing him with other great legends who are far better than him, as Kishore doesn’t belong there. The two singers who were truly extraordinary were Rafi and Lata followed by other legends, and their songs all prove it. Sorry, but I would never put Kishore in that category.
If one’s fixation with Kishore prevents them from recognizing Rafi as the greatest singer of all time (something their own idol KK even recognized, and mentioned many times), then its definitely a pity.
One may like Ghantasala over Rafi in classical songs, that is subjective, however in my view Rafi is better than him and others in classical singing as well.
Clearly the very fact that most other legends hail Rafi as the greatest does show something great. Unless one is ignorant and does not want to accept those statements, or one has more knowledge than these legends (which I highly doubt), these statements definitely matter a lot. I’d rather get an opinion from a legend on music than from a random person who claims to know things and who claims their opinions as facts. Ofcourse regardless of what these legends or anyone says, if one is unbaised, one can clearly see that Rafi has no peers.
KK is up there in the same league as mukesh,manna,talat,hemanth….this by no means is a league of ‘average’ singers…but when you attempt a comparisson with Rafi,KK turns out really average…Rafi is way above this league..Rafi has set such a high standard in HFM everyone else is plain average…and no please dont start off analysing discrete qualities and comparing with different singers like classical with manna,genius,kukkure ku,wistful singing etc for KK,individual numbers with some si singer…look at the larger picture…do a holistic analysis…Rafi is a one-man industry a colossus…at best KK can be described as an also-ran who happens to be popular in this day and age(for reasons well explained by Sudipji)
the Rafi fan has always maintained there can never be a comparison with Rafi…comparison is valid when made with someone in the same league…
but this is not heeded and if u may risk comparison be ready to discover how average KK is…
Like many others in this forum I consider myself a die hard Rafi fan. My days begin with Rafi songs and end with Rafi songs. However, I think our assertion that Rafi is best in all genres and categories is being debated by the likes of Surajit and Murthy and giving unnecessary ammunition to the critics.
To me, Rafi was undoubtedly best in 4 genres- Hindi film Ghazals (yes, I do have Talat in mind), Bhajans (not because of the technical perfection, but the “bhav”), Qawwalis (ability to add drama in the rendition, most Qawwalis in HFM represent a dramatic sequence with the hero in some form of disguise), and soft romantic numbers. In everything else, he can be the best but the acceptance may not be unanimous across the community.
Rafi was the best not because he sang “Kuhu kuhu” better than Ghantashala. Nor was he worse if it is the other way round. Rafi has to be judged in totality-just as we judge decathlonists in athletics. A decathlonist may not be the best in 100 metres or 200 metres or long jump or pole vault or the hammer throw, but he can do every one of those with a high degree of excellence. This is the reason why a decathlonist is usually considered the Best athlete.
Among the three (SJ, LP, KA), its difficult to choose.
By sheer variety, SJ tops the list. They are like Rafi, it is almost unimaginable to think the same MD gave music for Basant Bahar and Halaku and some of the peppy Shammi Kapoor songs. What I did not like about SJ was their excessive use of air instruments (as opposed to string) and high pitch.
LP was melodious. They had the amazing ability to resonate with people’s mood. Hence they ended up giving the maximum number of hits in HFM. I am sure if LP gave music today, it would be hit. Also I think they got the best of all singers. What I do not like about them is lack of much variation (but unlike Naushad they don’t become boring, they just use the tried-and-tested formula). They suffered from the overuse of Raag pahadi and Taal Kaharba.
KA was less publicized of the three. In a way, they suffered because their style was similar to LP (maybe because Pyarelel was their arranger and Laxmikant also played mandolin in their music and had directly influenced them). I love the KA songs of the 50s and 60s and also some of the 70s ones. They never got due credit from some of the best tunes such as, “Bheegi huye jalwon ko” (Rafi-Asha, Shankar Sambhu). I personally think they overused Kishore and Mukesh at the expense of Manna and Rafi.
BTW, the link for the Shankar Sambhu song is provided below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1RdtOgjnY0
In my opinion, Yesudas is far better than ghantasala. Yesudas’ problem is only pronounciation of hindi, although he’s the best in south.
I continue Mr. MYK ji,
My arguments would have borne fruit, regarding the talent of ghantasala, if ghantasala too had been born as a hindi person and was a performer in bollywood right from beginning. Since hindi is the national language, scope for recognition is more than the regional languages. It is true ghantasala did not sing in Hindi, because he did not knew hindi or english language also, despite such flaws he had risen to such enviable status in andhra. What do you say. Moreso, you were once mentioning that ntr had asked rafi to sing in telugu, do you know why. This is not due to reason that rafi was greater but because there was a dispute between ghantasala and ntr and ntr was searching for a similar singer to make his film hits – he had no option other than rafi in entire country, (but sorry to say rafi ji could not perform great in telugu like his hindi contribution) Why did Ntr search only for rafi, when ghantasala did not sing form him. There lies the answer why comparisons take place only between these two legends.
Mr. MYK
I do not dispute what you have said. Rafi sahab is clearly a greater singer and what all you have mentioned definitely applies to him. But as I have said earlier, the same applies equally even to ghantasala in all ways, that was my version and not to say one is greater or inferior. You can understand greatness of ghantasala, only if you have clear knowledge of telugu, otherwise as i said earlier, you will only stop at appreciating his voice and nothing more than that. Moreso, i had clearly said that as i know pretty well both languages, i personally feel both talents are mindblowing on equal terms. I have heard all kinds of presentations of both singers. From rafi ji’s songs to quawalis, ghazals etc. to ghantasala ji’s songs, padyams, slokas, dandakams etc. Both are quite versatile. You cannot really say who is greater than other. O K Let us be objective now.
I feel nobody can discuss with pure fanboys of a particular singer (both ghantasala and rafi to be specific), because no amount of discussions and convincing arguments or proofs can convince such people. But one question MYK ji, Many people (barring telugu ones and ghantasala fans) who are rafi fans here, have appreciated ghantasala, with some considering him even greater than rafi (for instance khan sahab and bose ji – who does not know telugu at all) by hearing him for the first time. Is it possible that by mere contradiction or flluke, a singer is likely to be appreciated unless he has great qualities, moreso in comparison to rafi, the greatest legend. And, as per you, out of jealousy also, I do not think majority of people who have appreciated ghantasala here, belong to the biased category and with a personal intention (barring one or two fanboys of kishore etc.) You were mentioning k j yesudas has been compared to rafi, but i have not seen a single message here in this forum (1200 plus messages) of such comparison, rather 800 plus messages have been between ghantasala vs. rafi only and remaining 400 between kishore and rafi. Why is it so, if there is nothing special in both ghantasala and rafi and perhaps also kishore (to a lesser extent). If there is nothing special, is it possible that such discussion can continue for such a long time and more so why are these legends are considered as awe inspiring by the current greats such as SPB, K J Yesudas etc.
I do not agree with you that many singers are compared to rafi, adopting him as benchmark, because that cannot happen as rafi ji cannot be compared as he is greater as you said. In my humble experience, i have seen only ghantasala being compared to rafi by telugu people and also rafi being compared to ghantasala (in this forum) in a majority cases. Barring ghantasala, I have not seen anybody even dare to compare anybody with rafi ji, as it is simply not possible. This is due to because as rafi is considered so by his fans, equal status in all ways is similarly enjoyed by ghantasala in the hearts of millions of telugu people, continuing to this day. I do not think, perhaps any other playback singer has got such great status. That is why this debate perhaps.
one peice in the world, no can compare to him, symbol of music, every song sung by him is gift for us. we will never ever get this gift.
Dear Sir myk thanks for nice post,as you asked mr Sudip about which is your favourite duo?I think no one can be greater than SJ offourse we have many great duo but number one almosty be SJ and LP be 2nd as I think offourse I don’t no anything about music to compare these great people.for me number one is SJ…
1,SJ
2, LP
3, Nuashand Ali
4,SD Burman
5,Madan Mohan
as I think only I don’t mean that SJ is better than others,as I like,As I think
One Rafi fan from this forum was open-minded enough and genuine enough to accept my offer of Kishore’s good songs. I was happy to share with him.
Sudip, I recall you had mentioned about being interested in Kishore’s songs without a loud orchestra/music overpowering the rendition. I am hoping to share them with you. My email is surajitbs at gmail dot com.
Anybody who says Kishore is just an “average” singer and cannot be compared to Rafi has no idea of the complete repertoire of Kishore, and has never tried to actually sing a variety of Kishore’s songs. And I don’t mean songs like “chala jata hoon” – even Kumar Sanu can do that.
If your fixation with Rafi prevents you from recognizing Kishore’s prowess as a singer, it’s a pity.
Regarding Ghantasala, I haven’t heard a large sample of his songs, but from the few that I have, it’s very evident that, as far as comfort with classical songs are considered, he is clearly superior.
One doesn’t need to buttress his arguements with statements from other legends to prove (or disprove) this point.
I would like to add to my comment in my previous post. It should read as:
“It is an undisputed fact that most music personalities consider Rafi to be the greatest singer of all time, just like it is an undisputed fact that Rafi is the greatest singer of all time.”
Swamy-ji,
Thanks for your post. It is an undisputed fact that most music personalities consider Rafi to be the greatest singer of all time. I have read many interviews and talked to many people and the name that always comes up is of Rafi. Ghantasala is hardly ever mentioned except when talking to selected SI composers or personalities. Even in the South, Rafi is one of the most talked about artists, among all the other greats like Yesudas, SPB, TMS, PBS, Ghantasala, Jayachandran and others. It is definitely no coicnidence, and I have met IR personally through a good friend of mine, and he told me there is no one to match Rafi, and he has stated that many times in his interviews, which SPB can also clarify, if you want. Same is the case with MS Viswananthan, and many others in the South, they were all of the view that Rafi was unmatched. This is very clear, and I don’t understand what was the need to bring up Ghantasala anyways, when the two are poles apart as singers. Fans of other singers always want to compare their favourites to Rafi, whether it is Kishore at one end, SPB at the other, and now you and others have brought up Ghantasala, and at other places I have seen Yesudas and Mukesh being compared to Rafi. What does that tell you ?. Surely Rafi is the benchmark, and not only can this be seen by the comparisons, but by his unmatched level of singing.
Mr. Bose’s views are definitely not objective, if you have read his posts, you will know they are not and full of bias and subjective/opinionated statements. Why do you think the majority here lashed out at him (including me) for such absurd remarks ?, comparing an average singer at best like Kishore to a giant of a singer like Rafi. Everyone here can see through his statement but if you can’t, then I hope you see the light one day. With due respects sir, your posts seem to be subjective as well, whereas most Rafians here including me are just writing the plain simple truth, which has nothing to do with subjectivity (its all objective), but all to do with Rafi’s greatness. Mr. Khan’s views have concentrated more on various types of music and not a lot on singers.
I am not going to dispute what you heard Adi Narayan Rao telling you about Rafi not being pleased with his recording vis a vis Ghantasala, and ANR telling him he won’t be able to sing it like Ghantasala, he may have told you that. The question is why didn’t Adi Narayan Rao take Ghantasala for the Hindi version, surely he could have sang this version as well right ?. The language was no excuse, many SI singers have sung in Hindi and vice versa including Rafi in SI languages. The MD in question must have known Rafi’s capabilities which is why he went to him, and it shows how much of a command Rafi had on classical singing. About Rafi not singing it like Ghantasala, and the ANR mentioning he won’t be able to, well Rafi sang it better (in my view), so ANR was correct in saying, “sing it your own way” (according to what you said) so regardless of what he thought, or what Rafi thought himself about his version, Rafi still sang it better than the Telegu version. Same is the case with the other Hindi/Telegu versions of Rafi/Ghantasala (in my view).
You have to remember, Both Manna Dey and Ghantasala were far more trained in classical singing than Rafi, that is a fact, yet as Manna said, “Rafi could sing classical songs better than me due to his natural gifted ability”. I apply the same argument for Rafi and Ghantasala, even though Ghantasala was a far more trained classical vocalist, Rafi could surprass him even in this field.
Don’t get me wrong, Rafi was also a trained classical vocalist from none other than Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan and Ustad Abdul Waheed Khan, but he wasn’t nearly half as trained as Manna Dey or Ghantasala. What he (Rafi) accomplished in the classical field was primarily due to his natural gift. Regardless of if Rafi had been more trained than he was, or not trained at all, he still would have outshined the two and others in classical singing, because of his natural gift.
Rafi was the ‘all-rounder’, you will not find a singer like him in the history of indian film music. Whereas many singers mastered certain styles and genres (like Ghantasala and Manna in the classical field), Rafi could master them all because of his natural gift, and combined with his voice, range, skills etc. he was the complete singer. Whereas others needed training to master something, Rafi could master something without training (as I mentioned before), but the fact that he had training (in classical music) was also something great. But look at another aspect, he ang qawwali’s better than specialist qawwals without training in that field, and same is the case for ghazals, bhajans, light songs, pathos, romantic etc. No singer had such a voice, such a range, such variety, such versatility, such complete control, such depth and so forth.
Both Carnatic music and Hindustani are unique in their own way, I can’t say which one is greater than the other because both are great. However any comparison to Rafi with another singer is not fair, since Rafi is miles ahead in many aspects, so I think the comparisons should stop. There are far too many aspects of Rafi’s singing, voice, and skills that makes him the greatest ever and the benchmark.
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Sudip,
“Ek baat poocho” is definitely an excellent duet by K-A, Thanks for bringing it up. I just mentioned a few examples, and didn’t mention this nice song.
Btw, out of S-J, L-P and K-A, which is your favourite duo ?, and who would you say was the most talented duo ?.
Mr. MYK and Hussein sheikh ji,
Rafi ji’s capability is well known, no body disputes about it. You have stated about illayaraja, I request you to pl. read illayaraja’s views on ghantasala in the Hindu paper Feb. 8 2003. That provides solution to your answer. You do not state what Illayaraja or other musician has said about ghantasala. As hindi m d’s have praised rafi, same was the case with ghantasala by telugu M d’s Anyhow let it put to rest.
Hussein sheikh ji, – pl. refer my post 1272 for answer to your post.
Both of you, and anyone else in this forum, including illayaraja, are certainly not greater than Mohd. RAfi and Adinarayana Rao – agreed or not. So i feel you cannot contradict the words of Both rafi ji and adinarayana rao. My relative and adinarayana rao both are not there today, otherwise I would have introduced both of you to them to put the dispute at rest.
I am also a rafi ji lover sir’s but impartial analyst. My messages speak for me. Your views appear to be partial tilting towards rafi ji, leave alone being impartial, whereas boseji, khan etc. have objective analysis, which i think should be respected. Pl.do not mistake me, nothing personal but i want to say that your message is only subjective and partial, but not objective and impartial. Sorry if I have offended you sir’s
Finally, we all should note that as khan sahab has said, carnatic and hindusthani should not be strictly compared, as both have their own edge in their respective styles and ways. So let us hear them independently to enjoy them. Otherwise, disputes only are the result. We should well remember that both are forms of one music only, we are fighting here like people fighting in the name of religion, my god is great like that, which should not be the case here.
myk:
In post 1265, my favorite Lata-Rafi duet under KA is not listed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB4z9j_WDaM
Also would like to mention, that Rafi’s contemporaries, rivals, and friends such as Mukesh, Kishore, Hemant, Manna (as mentioned before), Talat etc. all regarded Rafi as the first and last word in singing.
Illayaraaja, one of South India’s most greatest and most versatile music directors of all time, a man who has invented new raga’s in Carnatic music, is also of the view that Rafi is the greatest singer of all time.
North, South, East, West, Rafi is the best !.
Moderator: I have posted this exact same post in the RDB-Rafi section by accident, since I was reading the posts there. So please delete this post from there and paste it only here. Thanks.
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I would like to mention something on classical music, since its been a topic of interest recently on this forum.
If someone has classical knowledge, it does not mean whatever they say is true, or should be taken as the truth. What should be taken as the truth, is reality and facts themselves.
Anyone who has classical knowledge and an unbiased view, in general, regardless of if their favourite is Rafi or not, and who acknowledges Rafi to be the greatest singer of all time, any comments made by them or any sort of analysis should be respected and taken seriously. Anyone who has classical knowledge, but has a bias, and fails to recognize Rafi as the ultimate, well their knowledge should be taken into consideration, however any other bias statements by them should be dismissed. One doesn’t have to like something to acknowledge it. I may not be a big fan of Salil, but I do acknowledge that he was a genius and a master at western classical music. On a side note, if one doesn’t have classical knowledge but one accepts Rafi as the greatest, then they are also knowledgeable in music, they know their stuff, and their comments should also be respected and taken seriously. Ofcourse classical music is not the only aspect of having musical knowledge, there are so many other aspects, and having knowledge of classical music is definitely just one aspect.
One doesn’t need classical knowledge to know that Rafi was the best, it is so clear by itself, and I would think that if one had classical knowledge, one would realize this fact even more through a whole new dimension, which is true, accept for those who have a bias.
Virtually most musicians, MD’s, singers, lyricists in the indian film music faternity have spoken high of Rafi’s classical skills, termed him the best classical singer (above Manna Dey, Lata, Ghantasala etc.), as well as termed him the greatest overall singer of all time. Pandit Jan (Gyan) Prakash Ghosh, the doyen of classical music was of the view that Rafi was the best exponent of classical music, the same views were held by Naushad, KC Dey, Shankar (of S-J) who was a master himself at music, and whom Lata considered “the ulitmate compliment†when Shankar praised her singing, since he knew music inside out, SDB who was a master at Indian classical music, as well as Manna, Lata, Yesudas, and a countless number of other “classical†greats. Also all the above and countless other greats regard Rafi as the greatest overall singer of all time.
So for those who say that Rafi was anything but the greatest overall, or ‘average’ in the classical genre, they either must have more classical knowledge than the above greats and more (which I very highly doubt), they don’t have any classical knowledge or knowledge in general, or they have knowledge (classical or in general) but have a bias, or they just have a bias in general, or they basically can’t accept facts for what they are due to some jealousy and burning fire present within them.
Also, (and I have mentioned this before), regardless of if any personality has praised Rafi’s classical abilities, or his overall singing abilities, with an objective and unbiased analysis, one can easily see that Rafi was head and shoulders above all other singers, and the best of all time. However the fact that most have mentioned Rafi’s greatness proves his ultimate greatness even more. There are too many aspects of Rafi that make him the best and you can’t compare anyone to him because of these aspects, such as voice, range, versatility, depth, punch etc. Comparisons to Rafi are silly and funny (the most silly of them being Kishore), as the only singer who can be compared to Rafi is Lata.
Rafi not only was a master at classical music, but his voice had a “phirat†which gave him the edge over anyone else. Listen to this song from Kalpana composed by OPN, and you will know exactly what I am talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3m0CBMwUrc
To this date I have yet to see anyone replicate the “mehle udaas aur galiyan sooni†rendition from Rafi’s live version of “O Duniya ke rakhwale†from Baiju Bawra in any song, as well as any singer match Rafi’s “Likhar tera naam zamin par†from Laila Majnu (besides a countless number of other songs). Here is the live version of “O Duniya Ke Rakhwaleâ€:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I79FbHrksbg
Another not talked about classical song, but excellent in every respect, composed by S-J:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbpVwopnohE
One great gem composed by Dada Burman with Pandit Samta Prasad on the tabla:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B18DbdznhKw
This is not a classical song per se, but one with a classical flavour, a song SDB mentioned he would have been proud to have composed. Again I have yet to see any singer come up with such a rendition in any of their songs. This song is composed by Jaidev, the same man who composed “Likhar tera naam zamin par†after MM’s death:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl0lF7PIeIo
Post 1270: I have heard ghantasala’s version of “Kuhu kuhu Bole Koyaliya…”, there’s nothing greatness in the song, Rafi Saheb’s version is clear and far better. Even Ghantasala’s version of “Chal ud ja re Panchhi….” is below of Rafi Saheb’s version. No one can sing better than Rafi Saheb.
Respected khan sahab, surajit bose ji, pardus ji, MYK Ji,
Sir’s, I am a lover of both rafi ji and ghantasala ji and equally enjoy both the great singers who give equal pleasure to me. I strictly do not compare both, as I personally feel, both are great in their own respective fields. (if one is sun, other is moon) My analysis is purely hence objective.
What you have said is correct, which is stated by all musicians, i.e carnatic music is difficult to master than hindusthani. But whoever has mastered both, has a complete control. Coming back to the technical analysis, mohd. rafi is a hindusthani musician in the way that he mainly concentrated on film songs, as such he met the mininum requirement of hindusthani music in his songs thus, he cannot be really classified as a classical hindusthani musician. (in the ranges of bhimsen joshi etc.) On the other hand, ghantasala had mastered various forms of classical carnatic music, and he used to give classical concerts along with film playback singing. (Ghantasala ji even had competitions with classical musicians from south in concerts and he even challenged semmangudi, the great classical musician of the south) Moresover, he possessed a captivating and divine voice like rafi ji, which provided more edge in film playback singing. As khan sahab says, without compromising his classical style, he was perfect in filmy style too. So on technical wise, ghantasala is quite ahead in classical music as compared to rafi ji. Moreover, if you hear ghantasala and balamuralikrishna singing filmi songs, it appears they play with notes, there is no struggle at all in singing, they simply glide easily ( for instance suvarna sundari song in telugu), this is due to their constant practise of classical music.
Mr. MYK ji,
My relative had close association with Sri Adinarayana rao, the music director of suvarna sundari song. I recall his words with my relative in 1957, he said that rafi did express great curiosity to sound similar to the ghantasala version and found it difficult to make it, and sri Adinarayana Rao, had advised rafi that pl. do not try to sing like ghantasala, it is simply not possible, rather you pl. sing in your own style. Indeed rafi ji did his best in his own style, and the hindi version kuhu kuhu is a great number, no doubt about it, but rafi ji afterwards conveyed to adinarayana rao, that he was not satisfied with his rendering vis-a-vis the ghantasala version (which was first recorded) This is true MYK ji. (Not to be misunderstood that rafi ji was inferior, in fact great in his own way)
And , without hurting any rafi ji lovers (I am also a rafi ji lover), I too agree with Khan sahab, bose ji etc. that hayi hayigaa (telugu version) is superior to the hindi version. But to say, i love the hindi number (kuhu kuhu) as well as equivalent to the telugu number though i admit it as superior to its hindi counterpart.
Mr. Pardus ji,
All the songs which you posted are great numbers by ghantasala ji.
These songs have been sung in the 50’s and 60’s when rafi ji was the king in bollywood and ghantasala was the emperor in telugu. Really, hindi and telugu music was at its peak in the 50’s and 60’s. These great singers, without any digital technology in those days, had created wonders, which continue to flow for many decades after their leaving, but today’s singers with advanced technology, cannot match even to the extent of at least half of these great immortal legends. That is why they are the gifted singers – amar gayakas.
Surajitji,
Thanks a ton for your inputs. Could you go through my post 1255 in your leisure? Please read it at your leisure, I really don’t want to be in your face. I have provided some light, melodious songs where Ghantasalaji is both the singer as well as the music director. Usually when he is the music director, the songs are “classically melodious”. But these are very light, melodious songs. Please give me your feedback on them.
Boy, How much I would have loved to see Rajan Parrikarji, yourself and others analyzing his songs at RMIM when RMIM was at it’s peak a few years back.
Khan saab’s detailed analysis of these songs are on page 25 and 26 of this forum. Please, please do read his analysis also. He also seems to be very knowledgeable on classical music and very objective.
Khan sahab,
Can you provide me your e-mail address also? You can just e-mail it to me. I can ask you questions on classical music if I have any doubts. When you get a chance, please read RMIM (especially the old posts). Please give me your feedback on Surajitji’s analysis of “Sakhi Ri Sun Bole” by the great Mangeshkar sisters?
Just a reminder, my post 1268 has my e-mail address.
Thanks,
Pardus
Hi Pardus,
I forgot to add one more thing. The telugu version of “Kuhu Kuhu” (“Haayi haayiga”) is, IMO, clearly superior to the hindi version.
Firstly, the pitch is a trifle too high for Lata and she is therefore a little off her best, while Rafi sounds a little laboured in executing all the taans. Ghantasala is easily the best in this particular song (I am including both versions here).
Hi Pardus,
Sorry for the delayed reply. Henceforth, it’s best that we take this off this forum.
Also, pardon me, Khan saab, for repeating some of what you have already stated.
I have heard some of the songs pointed to by you (Pardus). My takes on them :
The song from Anarkali (Raja shekhara) is composed primarily in raga Malkauns (Hindolam in Carnatic). It’s a very melodious number with an excellent vocal range (I would put it at just under 2 octaves). The song also seems to carry shades of raga Dhani.
The song “Raagamayi raave” is from raga Bhimpalas (Carnatic equivalent is Abheri). Again, it’s a beautiful composition rendered, needless to say, excellently. A difficult song once again made to look easy.
“Eenati ee haayi” comes under raga Bhoopali/Shuddha Kalyan (Mohanam in carnatic). It’s a really lovely duet. It’s fascinating that in all these simple, melodious songs, the singers and the MD find a way to insert some superb taans, gamakas, and still maintain the melody.
As an aside, I must say that in most of the duets so far, I find that the female voice somewhat pales in comparsion with Ghantasala. His voice is so sweet and he overshadows his female co-singer in technical virtuosity as well.
“Laahiri Laahiri” also comes under raga Bhoopali/Shuddha Kalyan (Mohanam in Carnatic). Again a lovely song. There’s not much more to add here.
The song “Rasikaa raja” is a really interesting composition. It is, as you say, a mixture of two ragas. From my initial listening, it appears to be a mix of raga Bageshree and Bhairav. However, I need to give more attention to it. It’s worth the attempt because it’s a curious song. If you don’t mind, I will email you over the weekend.
Once again, thanks for making me listen to these songs, :-). I think I might start digging out more songs of Ghantasala.
Khan sahab,
Thanks for the explanation of the difference between Carnatic and Hindusthani music. Just FYI, I am not comparing anyone with anyone. I just need objective analysis of Ghanatasalaji’s songs by people who are knowledgeable in Indian classical music like yourself and Surajitji.
Could you please listen to the songs in my previous post (composed by Ghantasalaji) and let me know on what raags they are based? Please send me an e-mail about your analysis of these songs to coolkuna at cooltoad dot com.
Thanks,
Pardus
Khan sahab:
Thanks for the wonderful comparison of the two forms of classical Indian music. Agree with you fully that Carnatic music is tougher to master and one who has mastered it can have a fair grasp of its Hindustani counter part. Your point about the depth and strength associated with Carnatic music is very true and indeed one needs a different style of singing when it comes to Carnatic classicals as compared to Hindustani classicals (with more involvement of the throat).
Harvinderji:
It seems u’ve missed the sarcasm in my post (#1257). Kindly read it along with Mr. Ponnaps’ post (#1252) and my own (#1247). Please also go thru the several posts where Kishoreda’s limitations have been smartly camouflaged.
But I have to disagree with you on the Kishoreda part of the song. I don’t think Kishoreda has done justice to the song or the picturisation. Actually his voice is anything but heavy in it. It is rough, it is nasal, it is cloudy and it is laboured. Apart from the voice, his singing is a let-down too.This was a song in which he could have done some value-addition (with that heavy, rough voice of his, esp. since it’s on Amitabh). But his limitations (technical or otherwise) didn’t permit it.
And my ‘screaming’ comment was an attempt at sarcasm. I don’t personally think Rafisahab sounded bad at the end. Yes, his voice wasn’t too masculine but I don’t suppose anyone (apart from Western tenors) can hold the voice up at that pitch. Agree with you totally that Rafisahab would have sounded cooler and more relaxed if he were to sing it, say in the mid-’60s.
Everyone:
speaking of pitches, I’ve found a blog from a Western music enthusist who was in India for sometime and analysed the vocal quality and range of some of the famous Indian singers. According to his findings, Rafisahab’s vocal range come down towards the later stages of his life in this world.
I disagree with Khan, Hindustani music also has many various shades and forms, and is full of depth and strength as well. Also, Hindustani music has a lot of scope for improvisation, and teaches you breath control in the best way. I don’t think the Lata-Rafi version of “Kuhu Kuhu” is in any way inferior to the Ghantasala version, I feel it is better than its Telegu counterpart simply because of the renditions from the two greatest singers ever, Lata and Rafi.
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Mr. XXX,
Thanks for your views on K-A. I do agree that in the 70’s, K-A catered to all those action films and provided sub-par music for a good number of them, but even then for other films their music was good. However they can never be compared to the ultimate duo which is S-J, who are head and shoulders above all duo’s in film music (and not just HFM). But K-A were definitely very talented and produced excellent songs. As you mentioned, they were outstanding in duets. I rate S-J and SDB as the joint duet masters, but K-A would definitely be next. The Satta Bazar song is indeed excellent and displays K-A’s talent early on. Although early on their songs were in the S-J mould, (just like L-P early on), but they still had the unique K-A touch. They used Hemant Kumar in a nice way as well.
Here are some of those excellent Lata-Rafi duets by K-A:
Bekhudi Mein Sanam (Haseena Maan Jaayegi)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6yZe0uLmS8
Kabhi Raat Din (Aamne Samne)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9bRXAbxXwI
Pyar Sikha Doon (Upaasna)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUCZwRY3yXo
Humne Aaj Se Tumhe (Raja Saab)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrSH-CXh7k8
Bol Mere Saathiya (Lalkar)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41Eyd-ssmVk
Wada Karle Sajna (Haath Ki Safai)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdJVp5ANBK0
Tu Bhi Aaja (Maryada)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob6z7-NjTtY
Hum Hain Pyar Ki (Do Musafir)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJd2nEG7C4c
Tere Nain Mere Nain (Rakhwala)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCP95cKTIeU&feature=related
Yunhi Tum Mujhse Baat (Sacha Jhootha)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v22vxSybn_o
Humko Hone Laga (Dil Ne Pukara)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aea3UuSRi9I
Door Kahin Tu Chal (Bedard Zamana Kya Jane)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpqGzHGYY_g
Kyun Mile Hum Tum (Bedard Zaman Kya Jane)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MH7M9X_3_s
Now for some solo’s:
Aaj Kal Humse Roothe (Aamne Samne)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqrEvjpHB20
Humne Dekha Hai Tumhe (Ji Chahta Hai)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_inO–rvt8
Chale The Saath Milke (Haseena Maan Jaayegi)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hs-PWqXBSM
Koi Nahin hai mera – Samjhauta
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igilN_tXV98
Teri Zulfen Pareshan (Preet Na Jane Reet)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drA008S2Sgc
Tere Jaisa Kaun Hai (Tamanna) – I challenge anyone to find me a romantic song similar to this one. This is one of the countless number of songs that makes Rafi the greatest ever. Rafi-saab, “tere jaisa koi nahin”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6LmhpTu05g
Akele Hain Chale Aao (Raaz)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTeu-Hx0tos
Chandni Raat Mein (Ek Shriman Ek Shrimati)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyMOizW4ouE
Kuch Log Yahan Par (Vardaan)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqEsBx0mk40
Dil To Dil Hai (Kab Kyun Aur Kahan)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRNymF_1zMg
contd…
so strictly speaking, both hindusthani and carnatic music should be heard in their own styles and both should not be really compared, because both have their own genres and qualities.
contd…
this is to say that the hindi suvarna sundari number excels from the hindusthani style of rafi sahab and lata ji, but at the same time suffers from the lack of that depth and strength of the telugu number, which is due to the shades of carnatic music. Had it been only a hindi song, it would have been different, but since it is sung in carnatic style also, the difference is being noted.
Pardus sahab – 1255 post
I reciprocate the festive greetings. May Allah (God) bless all the people. Thank you very much for enlightening more on ghantasala ji. I am happy to note he was also a music director having composed music for over 100 films. I also agree with you, in classical base, he is the best. No doubt about it. I had earlier written that without compromising his classical style, he brings beauty in filmy style. That is his uniqueness. You have repeated it today.
Swamy sahab, you are right, to really enjoy a singer you have to hear through the hearts. I do not know much about telugu language, but I have purely given my analysis from a pure musical point of view. You are correct, to know the complete talent one must invariably possess knowledge about that particular language.
Regarding, one sanjeev ramabhadran sahab’s view, I concur with him, that ghantasalaji is the best in filmy classical music, to put in more vividly, even ahead of k j yesudas, another filmy classical singer from south.
The styles of hindusthani and carnatic are quite different. The swaras in hindushtani music float while singing i.e light music effect,whereas carnatic music has more depth and strength. That is why songs of ghantasala sahab and k j yesudas appear more stronger whereas rafi sahab numbers and other bollywood singers numbers have hindusthani effect i.e they appear light as compared to their southern counterparts. This is not to say that they are not good, indeed they are best from the hindusthani point of view. But ordinary audience when hears it, may be attracted to the song which has great depth and strength. In this connection, I may recall one statement by the southern music gaint, Balamuralikrishna sahab, that one who is adept in carnatic music can easily catch hindusthani numbers but not vice versa. This is indeed true. A person adept in hindusthani music has to practise more to get that particular depth and strength, which requires more practise, whereas carnatic musician can with lesser effort adapt to the hindusthani style. That is why earlier I had written, the depth and strength in suvarna sundari song by ghantasala sahab is greater than the rafi and lata number in hindi. This is due to the above reason.
Anil Cherian post 1257.
Kishoreda’s hindi diction was as good as it gets. Though he hailed from a bengali family, he was born and grew up in hindi heartland of MP. Nobody should doubt his hindi diction. On the other hand, Rafi saheb’s mother tongue being Punjabi, helped him gel some sweetness in his diction with the command over urdu (Punjabi is NOT only abuses that we all tend to link punjabi to). In fact there are songs in hindi where Rafi saheb’s punjabi diction is evident.
Parda hai parda song has Amitab playing a bombayite catholic. I feel Kishoreda in his heavy voice did full justice to the sentence in the given scenario.
I also felt that MD’s LP did expect too much from Rafi in 1977 and the result is a bit of stretch or scream towards the end of the song. May be in 60’s Rafi saheb would have done more justice. Parda hai parda was a hit nonetheless and with AAA, Chach Bhatija & Dharmveer, Rafi Saheb was making a comeback and KK fans took notice of the all time great.
Dera Rafians,
Another crap by clown Raju Bhartan:
http://inhome.rediff.com/movies/2008/oct/01kapoor.htm
Post 1236: Ghantasala maybe perhaps a good singer, but really not better than Rafi Saheb.
mr.myk,
i agree with you that k-a were great mds, but imo they spoiled their repertoire in 70s by churning out crap followed by crap(with few occasional gems), so by that token i rate them lower compared to their two major peers.
however i must say that they were exceptional in 60s and i also agree with you they were excellent while composing duet songs. just hear this Hemant-Lata duet from satta-baajar, this is a debut number of manohari da too, excellent sax piece is there immediately after mukhda, great duet! what are your views?
http://www.esnips.com/doc/428e74c4-625d-4606-84bc-137c81194519/Tumhen-Yaad-Hoga-Kabhi-Hum-Mile-The-(Satta-Bazar)
mr.myk, since i haven’t heard k-a that much so please correct me wherever i am wrong, also plz cite some of their Rafi-Lata duets and Rafi solos here so that we can enjoy them..
Yes, Ponnapji, it’s ‘nai hain..’ according to Kishoreda; I’ve listened again just now. But the reasons could be different from the ones you’ve given. Let me try and provide some:
#1. The raga of the song (I don’t know what exactly is the one) must have demanded this pronounciation
#2. You know, the ‘sur’ is the most important thing. May be the right sur is struck when singing ‘nai hain…’.
#3. You know, Kishoreda is from M.P/Bengal, you cannot expect him to say ‘nahi’ as well as someone hailing from, say Punjab.
#4. Perhaps you don’t know that right diction is not very important when looking at it from a classical point of view. It has been clarified before.
#5. Anyway, “parda hai…” song is not one to be analysed/debated. Rafisahab ‘screams’ towards the end of the song, doesn’t he?
Haldar sir:
The ‘parwana..’ song reminds me of two famous songs- one is ‘humko tumhari ishque…’, again and the next is ‘zindagi aaj mere naam se sharmaate….’.
Binu Nair ji,
Firstly I must thank you for allowing my posts to go through, even though they don’t talk about Rafi saab. You have proved that your heart is as big as Rafi saab’s. I have been visiting this forum for a long time and my only reason for posting now is Surajitji’s presence. I know most people here don’t agree with his views, but to those of us who have been to RMIM, he is simply Guru of classical film music (along with Rajanji, Chethanji, UVRji and Sanjeev). Unfortunately, he and Rajanji stopped posting at RMIM. So this is my only chance to get his views on Ghantasala’s songs. Thanks once again for bearing with these posts.
Khan sahab,
Eid Mubarak! Kitne khush kismat hain hum, jo aap aur Surajitji ke saath post karne ka mauka mil raha hai. Your phenomenal knowledge about classical music is very evident from your posts. You are right. I intentionally posted a few romantic numbers of Ghantasalaji along with the classical ones, because he is a filmi playback singer (most people might confuse him for Bhimsenji or Jasrajji type of singer like I did). In my previous post to Surajitji, the last song (of Maya Bazar) was actually a comedy song.
One unique thing about Ghantasalaji is that even in romantic songs or comedy songs, he puts in lots of taans and alaaps, and yet the song sounds very melodious. The taans/alaaps don’t appear out of place at all. If anything, they enhance the quality/mood of his songs. He also is blessed with the unique talent to sing difficult fast-paced alaaps/taans without having to distort his voice much (makes classical singing sound as easy as a walk in the park, and melodious too!).
Do you know he is a great music director too (1000+ songs, over 100+ films)? In fact, the songs of Mayabazar (the last 2 songs in my previous post), were composed by him. Apparently his favourite raag was Kalyani of Karnatak music.
Here are a few light-romantic songs of his music direction as well as singing:
1. Paatala Bhairavi (1951) — http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUlPllEvDhk&feature=related
2. Bratuku Teeru (1953) — http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1tY9Gr3cro
3. Pelli Chesi Choodu (1954) — http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J59QoQo5uOA
4. Maya Bazar (1957) — http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quJ_k8gb-5s&feature=related
5. Maya Bazar (1957) — http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuSgSHKBySA&feature=related
6. Gundamma Katha (1962) — http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_yxIF2T3Bw&feature=related
7. Bandipotu (1963) — http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7BC8sfNGJ4
Enjoy.
Swamyji,
I believe that every artist (Rafi saab, Kishoreda, Lataji, SPB, KJY, Ghantasalaji and many others) is great. Everyone is unique and have their own special talent. No one is replacable. My interest in Indian film music is primarily due to Rafi saab, Kishoreda and Mukeshji. While other Southern singers like SPB and KJY are familiar in the North, one thing though is the complete lack of attention on Ghantasalaji until recently. It is as though he suddenly shot into existence in the last few months.
Even if you look at Sanjeev Ramabhadran’s radio channel website about classical-based songs in Indian film music, it took him 19 episodes to post 1 song of Ghantasalaji that too after an intense debate about Ghantasalaji on RMIM in which he was involved (during the same time he posted several songs of other South Indian singers in his radio show).
This is perplexing, especially considering Ghantasalaji’s classical singing as well as music direction skills. Sanjeev himself tells in that 19th episode that when it comes to filmi classical singing, Ghantasalaji is amongst the best.
Surajitji,
Please reply to my mails to you, so that I can stop posting here. I must already be getting on the nerves of Rafi saab’s fans here. Give me your thoughts on my previous post. Please also listen to the above sings listed for Khan sahab.
Thanks,
Pardus
myk : post 1235 : the class of rafi saaheb fans is mirrored in their comments. although this lover of h.m.v. do not deserve any courtesy, rafi lovers have shown him grace even though he “downgraded” mohd rafi to compare with his h.m.v.
he is thick skinned and will never realise the goodness of mohd rafi and mohd rafi lovers. better sense of music nor simple courtesy – will ever appeal to this group of people. after all haldar saaheb was right. ignore him was his appeal.
binu nair, rafi foundation, mumbai.
Haldar sir:
Youtube is running slow here, so I’ll listen to the song at night and comeback to you…
Everyone:
I think it’s time we move on to things better, as Narayan ji suggests. (By the way I’m not a veteran by any standards, I’m here to learn from so many ‘enlightened’ gentlemen here).
However there is something going on (of late) which I don’t really appreciate (Is it just me?). It’s the ‘RMIMisation’ of this great site.. I don’t have anything against propogation and discussion of good music.. (from anywhere in the globe) but it’s just that this may not be the right platform…
Anil Cherianji @ 1247 ,
Good observation abt. Pardus playing the Parda part very competently :)) ..will come to that in a bit..
In the Parda hai song, KK’s part is meant to be “Akbar tera naam ‘nahi’ hai” but with the diction(or lack of it) that KK possesses it comes out as “Akbar tera naam ‘nai’ hai”..or Akbar your name is new!!…or is it that KK went so high with ‘Akbar tera’ that he had no breath left for the ‘h’ in ‘nahi’ and some conservation of breath was needed for the ‘h’ in the ‘hai’ immediately after…either ways to the discerning listener the meaning of the lyric has changed…do let me know if your observation on this is any different…
This amply highlights the importance of diction lest it changes the meaning of the lyric..ofcourse this is a very crucial aspect of HFM singing but which is very conveniently swept under the carpet by KK fanatics or given a flowery-language wrap to hide the limitation like many other limitations have been wrapped which are essentially a garb for lame excuses…for eg nothing worhtwhile with sahir,majrooh or no classic ghazals,qawwalis etc bcos KK had no urdu knowledge , or didnt sing certain genres not because he couldnt sing but bcos he didnt sing(classic excuse going round in circles..havent understood that one yet!!) or didnt sing many songs bcos he was busy acting etc etc…come to think of it a thread solely dedicated to KK fanatics’ excuses is well in order…
the fact that the Ghantasala youtube links were non-existant makes me wonder if these were cut-paste from an old conversation or a previously discussed analysis and were brought in here for a devious purpose…something fishy and stagemanaged about all this..hmmm thanks for opening our eyes to it…
i did listen to sivasankari and with all due respects to Ghantasala-ji,i find his voice quite off-putting…maybe awesome for classical singing but not so for film music…please note i dont understand telegu nor the situation or context of the song to make a holistic analysis but just concentrating on the voice…
I sincerely beleive that before all the dhongi pandits came about analysing taans,gamaks,arohs,avarohs,saptaks etc there were only two voice types to like or dislike represented by that of the Koel and that of the Kavva(Crow)..My ears will first discern based on that and no amount of written analysis can change the discernment of voices by my ear…ofcourse after the initial discernment by the ear it depends from person to person where the voice goes..for some it goes to the mind from where a lot of written analysis(and excuses) arise and for a majority of others it goes to the heart and thats where Rafi sahabs voice goes – straight to the heart….
Dear Rafi fans,
Let us ignore the negative tendencies of Surojit creating the obstacle in the smooth analysis of the blog comments by veterans like Haldarda,MYK,XXX,Sudip,Anil,Ponnaps and others…
Plz Surojitda give us a break and If you have any contribution to make on Rafism then you are welcome whole heartedly……..