True Voice – Mohd Rafi
The following article was brought to my notice when Sharad posted it on MAS. The article has been trimmed down a bit keeping afloat Rafi details. However, anyone interested can go visit the source at http://tfmpage.com/forum/4980.6302.04.57.19.html
I am Swaminatha Iyer and I am 78 years old. I hail from Tiruchi and I am a part of music associations in Tiruchi, M’as as well as in West Bengal and Maharashtra.
I think it is wrong to condemn music or artists on either side of Vindhyas. Our Indian music is one of the few which has not been cleaned off by the western music though there has always been a influence. It speaks a lot of the richness of our music. Sometime back director of MTV had said that MTV westernized the music wherever it went but in India , MTV had to be Indianized for it to be accepted. A lot of this credit goes to the Indian film music.
I have been fortunate to have close personal association with Rafi, Sirkali, TMS, Dr. BMK, Kishore, SPB & KJY, PS, Mannadey and the one and only Lata Mangeshkar.
Comparisons are bound to come, but almost every artist or I have met considers Lata to be beyond comparison. Her talents are beyond anyone’s reach. Even Sirkazi used to talk of her singing like a die-hard fan as do countless others.
Now coming to the Rafi-SPB discussion. It might be difficult to convince an South Indian to believe Rafi is the better and at the same time Rafi crowd will never believe any other male singer comes anywhere nearer. There is one more mobile crowd, which is well conversant with Hindi and some south Indian language. Majority of them tilt to either Rafi or Kishore.
During one of my stays in M’as I had stayed with SPB. While talking of true voices he said, I don’t feel like half a singer when listening to Rafi. True voice is not a tech term but many in circle use it. Perfect example would be lata, but to understand consider our own PS who within her range is superb. People who do not have such true voices can never do justice to original. They generally underplay many parts of the song or fake it with bass/superficial singing. True voices make people like Sirkazi, Nusrat Fateh Ali khan, Lata… Inimitable. However since Sirkazi and Nusrat did not have the filmy voices their “real” following is limited to their local arena.
In addition to the true voice if the singer has a very good voice then in “most” cases he/she can better songs of others. It is this combination which makes Rafi stand out among the other male singers. There are many here who seem to have mistaken notions on a good bass and also on high pitch.
Bryan Adams does not require a monster bass in “Summer of 69” to sound real manly. It is the punch which gives that feel and that is decided only by the comfort level in most ranges (that is by what your throat can support). This you CAN never disguise with bass. Since people have talked about lack of manly voice viz. a viz. Rafi it was necessary to bring this point out. I have had the fortune of listening to most singers in studio and some times without a mike, practicing with MD’s.When Lata or Rafi do, the level is so high that people hesitate to even hum. It felt silly to sing in their presence (and it feels silly when someone says his voice isn’t manly).
In RD’s tribute when SPB sang “Aaja Aaja mein hoon” or “Chaand mera dil” it sounded only sweet and lacked punch if you compare with Rafi’s original.
Yesu once told me God has been partial to Rafi. He said “god gift term anavasyamaa romba common aa ippo use aardu”.. but idu Rafi kee thaan 100% porundu”. This person could sing “as intricately as a lady without sounding thin”, “cover any mood”, “versatility odey perfect example Rafi”. Yesu said most important is the comfort level over ranges which makes you feel God has been partial to Rafi. (But Of course in Rafi’s early career (1950’s) the voice was relatively feeble).
To people exposed to Rafi’s talent, these or any amount of praise can only seem less. I just wish he was alive and you people could get a live chance to hear him. Probably you can get hold of the DD album for the Geet Gaata Chal series where the first four episodes were dedicated to Rafi. Rafi is on camera singing “O Duniya Ke Rakwaaley” and many other songs. If you see and hear the last part you will realize why SPB said “impossible”. I think particularly those people who have talked about scales w.r.t Rafi should see this album. Its a known fact in industry that Rafi ruled high pitch and there is no male singer better in switching notes so easily. There are artists who can go beyond but then they sound strained or they don’t have pleasant voices when they venture into those territories.
Many singers of today are his compulsive followers. But they end up inheriting only part of his quality. Md. Aziz ended up with a sad voice. Mahendra Kapoor with a thick nasal voice. Anwar with a nasal voice. Sonu Nigam with a feminine voice. Rafi neither had a soft voice nor a heavy (bass) voice he had a good voice. Importantly did not strain at high notes, and voice if at all only became better at higher notes. If you see him singing it will remind you of Janaki. However diff the song is or the note is he will be smiling and singing. It is unthinkable that he cannot sing something.
There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo” song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect. There are lot of other songs of SPB where this great singer has played with songs in total control. You will find most south Indian singers who have had a good exposure say that it is beneficial to learn Hindustani as it gives better breath control and improves expression.
Rafi was not only able to glide over a song, the important thing was that he could express each word/sound when singing. It is one thing to hold your breath, start and reach a crescendo (high note), as like in “Shankara”, “Anbey (Yennai kaan villaye)” it is different ballgame if you have to do it from low notes or suddenly switch notes. With practice the former can be done, latter requires a special gift. Rafi had a natural ability to do the latter. In “Tum joh mil gaye ho” there is such a transition in the “karwaan mil gaya” part. I have never seen anyone do justice to most of his songs in my life time. In “parda hai parda” quawaali the similar part is “kar doon to, Akbar mera naam”. In fact most of his songs will have these specialty as it was his natural ability to sing freely in a wide range at the same time giving that extra expression.
Whereas SPB takes us to heavens with “Idu oru pon maali”,”Ilaya nila” “bisiladarenu”(kannada), when he sings Rafi’s song it lacks the punch or expression, though it has the bass. But at least most agree that SPB does some justice to original, whereas most others murder the original.
One trivial point I would like to add is that singing in Hindi is harder. There are more “JHA”,”CHA”,”HA”,”THA”, “KHA”,”JA”,”FA”. These take away the breath faster. The more expressive you are the more air you are using up. Just singing from Nabhi will not help, your throat also needs to do a lot, for singing in Hindi, Bengali etc. SPB makes you fall in love with his south Indian songs but same cannot be said about his Hindi songs. If you just glide through words having these sounds, you will never be expressive. Doing this as well as reaching high notes is not easy. Rafi had this gift and that’s why it is difficult to imagine anyone else in his shoes. Song “Chalkaaye jaam” has so much expression that it is unthinkable how anyone can sing it. When Rafi switches to a high note with “Mitwaa” in the song “Chaahunga mein tughey” you cannot replicate it with bass. Most others will sound as if they are shouting in such cases. That man’s throat had the ability to freely sing at such levels.
Versatility is not just the ability to sing in various styles, more important is how good you are singing in those styles. You have lot of Ghazal singers today but when Rafi sings a Ghazal you will sit up and take notice. You don’t have to be part of the Ghazal listeners crowd. This is one important aspect. Whatever style you sing you should be able to pull the common man to listen and not just a particular crowd. Pick “parda hai parda” or any qawalli and it will stand tall among other qawalli’s.
Variety is amazing :
songs of Guru Dutt’s Khagaz key phool or songs like abhi naa jao chod key, Aaja teri yaad aayi, Aaj kal mein dhal gaya, Aaj kal terey merey pyaar, Aasmaan sey aaya farishta, Dil ney pyaar kiya hai, Deewana mujh saa nahi, Din dhal jaaye, Duniya paagal hai, Jaane walon jara, Dil joh na kaha saka, Dil key jharokon mein, Dil kaa bhavar, Chalkey teri aakkhon sey, Kar chaley hum fida, khilona jaan kar tum, Woh jab yaad aay, Woh hain jara khafa, Vaadian mera daaman, Pathar key sanam, Chaand mera dil, Main zindagi kaa saath, Mainey poocha chaand sey, sun sun jaalima, Koi jab raah na paay, hum to chaley pardes, badan pey sitaarey, laal chadi maidaan, Tum jo mil gaye, O meri shaahey, Sau baar janam lengey, Tum mujhey yoon bhula, Tumney mujhey dekha, Terey merey sapney, Tumny pukaara hum chaley aay
Name a situation/mood and Rafi’s song will be there on the top.
Swami
Mr. pardus – post 1191
I have heard all the seven songs of ghantasala sahab posted by you in your post – I had earlier heard siva sankari, madi sarada devi, suvarna sundari number and Rasika Raja song. I had earlier given my analysis on the said numbers. Now through you, I heard on the same day of your posting the other 3 numbers – i immediately noted the names of these songs. i.e ragamaye rave(composition close to dhansri /bhimpalas rag in hindusthani) eenati ee hayi (bhoop in hindusthani or mohan in carnatic )and rajasekara (malakosh in hindusthani and hindol in carnatic) The former four are purely classical ones . The latter three, i understand from the video, are romantic duets excellently rendered by this great legend.
Great incomparable songs and perfect renditions. Thanks for providing the links.
Test post. My earlier post bounced out.
Surajit Ji,
Here is Rafi saab’s classical song — “Kuhu Kuhu Bole Koyeliya” which was sung by Rafi saab and Lata Didi in Hindi. This song was originally made in Telugu, and sung by Shri Ghantasala and Jikki called “Haayi Haayigaa”. Below are the links to both the versions.
Shri Ghantasala’s version – http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/4U7_XVKVv9.As1NMvHdW/
Rafi saab’s version – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ6sTjW2-O8
Do you think this was one of the most pure classical song sung by Rafi saab (taans/alaaps-wise)?
Also, I luckily got musicindiaonline links to the deleted youtube links that I pointed out in post 1191. Please listen to each song and give your feedback. You might need to open them in Internet Explorer with Real Player enabled. The musicindiaonline website is having some issues, so please ignore any errors that pop-up. Also, please bear with any buffering issues.
If you are constrained for time, please focus on the first 3 songs. Please hear them fully as some songs have alaaps/taans in the middle or toward the end.
1. Anarkali (1955) – http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/dqb_gTRi5d.As1NMvHdW/
2. Jayasimha (1955) – http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/bUI_jBQEqt.As1NMvHdW/
3. Jayabheri (1959) – http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/TJI_hz1huS.As1NMvHdW/
[Apparently the above song is an adventurous mixture of 2 raags]
4. Jayabheri (1959) – http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/CqI_7t18_d.As1NMvHdW/
5. Mayabazar (1957) – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuSgSHKBySA
6. Mayabazar (1957) – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbgOk6RRTL0
Please let me know if you were successful in hearing these songs.
Thanks,
Pardus
Thanks Sudipji for the links, I don’t see any male singer capable of expressing these emotions as well. No wonder Yesu das sir says Rafisahab can sing as intricately as a lady (as reported in the article, here). And Rafisahab does a good job on Rajesh, I’ve always felt Rafisahab to be a better ghost voice for Rajesh (or for that matter anyone other than Amitabh).
Here’s a famous song which (IMO) is beyond the capability of any other male voice :
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=pwXC_47SXqg
Mr.Pardus has played competently, the role assigned to him. Anyway, his name reminds me of the famous Qawwali, here goes the link:
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=oDuCLjOXqUE
Please compare it with a nice song picturised on the same actor
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=V2U1s2MVG-o
I think I’ll add my own opinions on the two numbers. The first song is a predominantly Rafisahab song with two lines from K.K and one can very well distinguish the difference in class from these two lines. Just listen to the way Rafisahab sings ‘naam nahi hain…..’, he switches (and plays around with)notes smoothly and swiftly giving the listener an out of the world feel and Kishoreda..? he sings it the way any one who can sing (yours truly included) does. And what does he add to this song? Popularity?…. Yes; Quality?… No..
Song#2 is a predominatly Kishoreda and Lataji duet with Rafisahab chipping in with a few lines in between. The song is good and well sung by all. But see what Rafisahab adds on to this song with the few lines rendered by him…. And how youthful & sweet Rishi looked in the ‘AAA” song in Rafi sahab’s sweet voice (just as his uncles did, in the same voice). In the ‘doosra aadmi’ song, it’s felt he’s another 10 years older (despite the innocent looks and youthful body language) because of the coarser voice.
ref post 1241:
mr. cherian, you still haven’t provided any cues in your posts to guess what your profession is. On a different note, let me commend you for your observation of the similarity between the pyaasa tune that sudip cited and “hum ko tumhare ishq ne kya kya bana diya”. I’ve felt the same way for a long time. Here’s a rafi-suraiya duet composed by husnlal-bhagatram; it was delivered by a serious shammi on screen, much before rafi saab turned him into a junglee:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RyQrqFvBTE
(Why do I keep talking about husnlal-bhagatram nowadays?). Tell me if there’s anything you notice about this tune.
Mr. Bose post 1236 and Mr. pardus post 1243
Mohd. Rafi and ghantasala are god sent gana gandharvas to the indian playback singing world. Both of their voices had great attraction. The immense fan following and thousands of messages in their respective websites is an example to prove the aforesaid greatness of these legends. As rafi ji’s melody spark and silky effect outshines and envelopes all other bollywood singers, similarly in the south, ghantasala ji’s style of rendering padyams, slokams, songs with attraction outshines and envelopes all other singers. Mr. V A K Ranga Rao, a musical research and critic from Andhra writes that ghantasala possessed a gift for rendering padyams and slokams (bhagavad gita for e.g.) in an incomparable and in a way which is beyond comprehension and imagination of any singer. (like qawalis and ghazals in case of rafi ji) This is the main reason, that these two stalwarts had caught the attention of many musicians and they continue to inspire millions till date.
One striking feature which distinguishes these legends from others is that both had great captivating and divine voices capable of mesmerising and attraction, which in fact, if concentrated on spiritual practices would have given birth to great saints. (I feel both have wasted their great voices in singing film songs – though ghantasala had given a gem – bhagavad gita)
Mr. Bose and Pardus – a special point on siva sankari song by ghantasala and the telugu film industry
The siva sankari song by ghantasala is a divine rendering by him to perfection in rag darbari kannada and the same has been analysed by all classical musicians both hindusthani and carnatic in this site. Page 25 – khan ji, believed to be a hindusthani musician, vasu ji, ramakrishna ji, venkatadri ji (few names of rafi lovers i have mentioned) who too have knowledge of music have written very great about the song. Now, you both have given the same analysis which is quite true. Indeed the song is a great treat to all the true music lovers who want to enjoy perfect music. I have never seen anybody who was not mesmerised with the song. You are simply thrown into a different world, (on this song) it is quite true. In fact, i feel no song exists to be compared with this song in the indian film world in any language.
Indeed, the telugu film industry is incomparably great in its own way, specially for mythological films. Its contribution is undoubtedly the greatest among all language films in mythological films. The combination of N T R and ghantasala in these films (the devotional songs and padyams and sanskrit slokas) perhaps outnumbers every other songs in other languages. Even the tamil and malayalam, kannada language films are nowhere near to telugu ones, when it comes to mythological ones. NTR used to play Lord Krishna’s role in all the south indian films and there was no comparison for him. The mythologicals are best on telugu than any other language in India. To enjoy these films, one must have knowledge of telugu language.
Similarly, ghantasala fans should also note that other language people can only appreciate his great voice, but they cannot really catch his greatness in terms of expressing emotions, language command etc. because of lack of telugu knowledge. For instance, if you call a german and african, and make him hear rafi ji’s song, he will only appreciate his voice and nothing else, because he cannot understand more than that. People who possess knowledge of both telugu and hindi are blessed, because they alone can enjoy the great contribution of ghantasala and rafi in indian playback singing world. Each legend is great and incomparable in their respective fields. Some songs like siva sankari, suvarna sundari song, ghantasala might appear to have edge over rafi, but it should be taken in way that the composition of the song is made in a way in which the particular singer has constant practise and specialisation, which makes him appear superior in those particular songs. This applies to some of rafi ji’s numbers as well.
Fantastic choices of songs Sudip, all of them are a treat. The K-A Chhoti Bahu song is definitely a masterpiece, I mentioned this song in one of my recent posts. There is another beautiful “suhaag raat” song composed by S-J “Shola singar kar ke jo aayi suhaag raat” from the film Gaban, another excellent composition.
P. Haldar, looking forward to your views on K-A, and great choices of songs as well. I remember you had called the “mehle udaas aur galiyan sooni” part in Rafi’s concert version of “O duniya ke rakhwale”, ‘a song within a song’, and I fully agree. This part, created by Rafi himself is a masterful rendition, and I haven’t come across anything like it so far ever, by any other singer. It is so powerful that it brings tears to the eyes. No wonder Pandit Gyan Prakash Ghosh, the doyen of classical music, was of the view that Rafi was the best in classical songs. Rafi’s versatility, combined with his golde voice and awesome range made him the greatest ever.
No one could match Rafi in classical singing, and don’t you find it hilarious when some say he was average in this category ?, it shows how much they know about classical music. Anyone trained in classical music will definitely, most certainly, know that Rafi has no peers in classical singing as well, besides being the best in all other categories too. Anyone who says otherwise has a bias or does not want to admit the truth for various reasons only known to them. The singers who come after Rafi in the genre of classical songs (in my view) are Yesudas, Manna Dey and Ghantasala.
I have met a lot of great classical vocalists all around the world, and they all hail Rafi as the best in classical singing, as well as the first and last word in singing. These are trained classical vocalists in both Hindustani and Carnatic music belonging to various gharanas. As I said before, regardless of what anyone says, its amply clear that Rafi was the best in classical singing as well as the greatest singer of all time. However, the fact that most musicians, MD’s, singers, lyricists etc. all hail Rafi as the greatest singer of all time, says it all. Also, is there any singer who has attempted as many genres of singing ?. Sonu Nigam recently mentioned this aspect in his tribute concert to Rafi, that no one had the versatility of ‘Saatwan Sur’.
Rafi is considered to be the greatest singer, not only in India, but around the world. Please refer to the post by Ponnaps which mentions this aspect. Only Kishore fanatics and his blind fans want to put him alongside a giant like Rafi “by force”.
Mr. Cherain, excellent posts from you as well, I fully agree with you, and great way of pointing out those contradictions and myths of the posts that you were referring to.
Surajit Ji (ref post 1236),
Wow! What an analysis of the “Shiva Shankaree” song! I have known several people who told that this song is of raag darbari (including poster Khan on page 25 of this thread), but no one has done such an in-depth analysis. It just confirms your knowledge of classical music. I was hoping I could get Rajan Parrikar’s (he used to post on RMIM) feedback on this song. But your brilliant analysis has satisfied my curiosity.
Actually the audio in the youtube link is not very clear. You can hear this same song in Sanjeev Ramabhadran’s website given below. Please click on Episode 19 on the below web-page to hear this song.
http://www.sureelesapne.com/swaraanjali.html
It is sad that all the other Ghantasala youtube links were deleted just yesterday. One of the links was a Telugu song called “Haayi Haayigaa”. It was later sung in Hindi by Rafi saab and Lata didi called “Kuhu Kuhu Bole Koyaliya”. Even to my untrained ears, Ghantasala did a phenomenal job in this song. I wish I could post a link to this song and get your comparitive analysis on this song.
But thanks so much for your analysis. I will send you links to a few more Ghantasala’s classical songs directly to your e-mail.
Thanks,
Pardus
apologies…the correct link in post 1224 regarding funny peice on the hollow pattern of arguments by a kk fan is : thaxi.usc.edu/rmim/sami/R-kkKlanAbhay.txt
Dhaniram Sir:
I haven’t been able to find the ‘phool sa chehra chand si rangat….’ song (referred to in post 1218). However here’s the link to a fine song by Mukeshji, composed (surprisingly) by RDB. It’s sad this MD didn’t use the soulful singer more…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EEJANGnA_E
Haldar sir:
Thanks for all the wonderful songs. As you rightly pointed out what magic Rafisahab was able to create in them… keeping things simple, yet inimitable..
By the way can you guess my profession?
Ponnapsji:
Terrific post…
Mykji:
Agree with your views (all of them)
MYK and Haldar:
Thanks for mentioning Rafi’s “Suhaag raat” songs. He had this amazing ability in delivering songs that can intoxicate audiences by sheer beauty, especially those depicting “nocturnal romance” of Suhaag raat types.
Besides the ones you mentioned, my favorites are:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr6uijlPsK0 (MD: KA)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=405zHIw8-qA (MD: Ravi)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Oqmz1pPXuU (MD: Madan Mohan)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtGVfc3Rxmc (MD: Ravi)
But the best one to me is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KInVmS25NcY (MD: LP)
The last song is peppy and is no doubt, less classy than the Dastak song. But Rafi’s rendition of the arabic tune is out of the world. The coherent symphony of his voice and LP’s background score raises a passion that’s sexy, yet not vulgar.
Another lesser known song is from the film ‘Shaadi Se pehle’, music directed by Sapan-Jagmohan. I believe this was one of Rafi’s last songs..The beauty of it is mesmerizing, nevertheless.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pggwwKsTQ8g
Dear Bose
as you said “I can email you some good songs of Kishore you might not have heard before. Hopefully, you will enjoy them as a refreshing change”. do u think KK that people not know anything about KK?KK was a great singer and he will be and none of us said that KK was bad singer but only thing we don’t agree that KK is better singer than Mohd Rafi.we listen to KK as we listen to Mohd Rafi or Mukesh or M Kapoor or Mannay day but the problem we have with you that you are saying something which not true about Mohd Rafi and also we answer also in worry way something.
If you remember that Media they made Mr Bachchan from super star to nothing few years back.
I don’t know about music and i don’t want say anything about music but only I want say what I saw and hear from People who know about music what they said about our Mohd Rafi I think that Make him the best,if your remember programm at Zee Tv Yoodle by KK son Amit Kummar when he tried to sing Mohd Rafi song he was not able to sing that song and people at stage said sing it again but he said he will sing it again but never also MD Ravi said that there are many songs in KK was not able to sing.
Dear Bose there is two name in music world can’t be compare Male Mohd Rafi and Female Lata ji that is true as me I don’t like Lata ji but it not mean that I will Asha Ji more that Lata Ji that made Asha Ji better.
Dear Bose if you want compare singer with Mohd rafi I think there be only Lata Ji and as I thing mohd Rafi the winner also…..
I would like to Congratulate post 1224 Ponnaps who has thread bare analysed the wrong bias attitude of our friend Surajit Bose… who is trying very hard to prove that H.m.v is the best…
Also I compliment all others like Anil Cherian,Haldarda,Binu sir,MYK,XXX to give a fitting reply to the wrong perception of people like Surojit.
First of all Surojit why comparing and wasting out time ?….
Ponnaps,
I owe you a debt of gratitude for bringing up the name of Sanjeev Ramabhadran. I will not assume how much you know about Sanjeev, but I have been reading his posts from as early as 1994 and had the pleasure and honour of exchanging posts with him in the past.
Despite being a “Rafian”, he has the utmost respect for Kishore’s capabilities as a singer. He grudgingly admits that he could never decisively say that Rafi is a better singer than Kishore.
Hi Pardus,
The only available song (Shiva Shankaree) is a beautiful rendition set to raga Darbari Kanada. Before I give more details on the rendition, I must say that the passage to and the stress on the komal Gandhar is crucial. During the ascent (Aroh), the Gandhar shows a KaN from the Rishabh, and similarly the Madhyam amounts to a KaNa-swara on the descent (Avaroh). Andolan is required in both cases, especially Aroh. The komal Gandhar is the lifeline of raga Darbari Kanada.
The song remains more or less true to the raga and Ghantasala does a very fine job overall. The komal Dhaivat (in the mandra saptak) provides a gravity or austerity to the raga and this song has it’s sam located there. The shifting of notes or swara beginning from the sam is executed with superb felicity even into the taar saptak. In fact, if anything, I thought he showed greater control in the taar saptak than in the mandra (when he started off with a small alaap before “Shiva shankaree …”). His voice, in my assessment, is admirably suited for classical renditions and the ease and comfort he showed in the various taans and gamakas indicate a strong classical base, and an artist who has excellent command over the medium.
In fact, this is a much better example of a song in raga Darbari Kanada than either “O Duniya ke rakhwale” or “Jhanak Jhanak tori baaje paayaliya”. Ghantasala very clearly outshines both Rafi and Manna Dey here. Lata shows similar felicity (minus all the taans) in “Mughal-e-azam” with “Mohabbat ki jhooti kahani pe roye” though it must be said that Darbari (because of it’s austere shades) is more suited to the male voice.
Thanks for pointing out this song. I really enjoyed it.
Ofcourse if people are knowledgeable and debate in a good manner, writing posts with good intentions, which is objective, then a healthy debate should take place, and one should respect the views of those people. However if one is writing posts with the intention of malice, or spreading utter nonsense, then their writing and views should not be respected and should be dismissed.
The person in this case has claimed his opinions as facts, and has spread falsehood about Rafi which is not true, something which should not be entertained and should be dismissed. With the amount of nonsense and utter trash that has been spread by this person here recently, I don’t think respecting these views, or being diplomatic to this person (as some members here have been) is called for, but then again everyone is entitled to do whatever they wish.
Ofcourse everyone is free to write whatever they want regardless of it its right or not, and that’s the case in many places like this forum, but if nonsense is spread, then it should be dismissed and one should enlighten others with the truth. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but no one has the right to alter the truth.
Others should draw a line between their opinions, and claiming their opinions to be facts. There is a difference between a fact (something that has been proven and is reality), and an opinion (which is subjective).
Also, if one looks at music objectively (regardless of subjective views, likes, dislikes etc.), and debates in an objective manner, then one will know that Rafi is the greatest singer of all time.
ref post 1220:
Sudip, based on your earlier posts, I thought you were in the marketing/advertising/business analytics profession. But from your most recent post, it seems that you may also have a background in philosophy and sociology. Anyway, your comments on the sorry state of bengali music forced me to go back forty years in time and listen to some of the gems from that era. Please do not forget to acknowledge the contributions of the two sisters. One of my earliest childhood favourites was sung by the nightingale based on a gem of a composition by hemanta:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aD9Ofsq7ds
Melody at its best! I don’t think hemanta reused this tune in hfm.
dhani ram ji,
just wanted to let you know that pandit ram narayan accompanied rafi saab on sarangi on numerous occasions. He was an integral part of o. p. nayyar’s orchestra, along with rais khan, shivkumar sharma and hariprasad chaurasia. Some of the finest classical musicians used to be actively involved in hfm those days, including the greatest flautist of all time — pannalal ghosh. It is a shame that we don’t acknowledge the contributions of these great musicians.
op really popularised the use of sarangi in hfm. I can’t be fully sure if the strains you hear in “aanchal mein saja lena kaliyan” are from pt. ram narayan’s sarangi or not, but chances are that they are.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pnao-8mAv0M
What a wonderful fusion of sitar-sarod-santoor-sarangi and rafi’s vocals! This is a composition which took one of the greatest classical vocalists of our time by surprise. And in the same film, op, true to the “king of rhythm” title that was conferred on him, comes up with an ace of a different kind:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU6bOUp6GWY
op, we miss you.
myk,
I’ll comment on ka in a later post. I am citing songs of the three contemporary md’s in reverse order of their standings in the 60s. In that decade, ka was on top, followed by lp and then by rd. So I cited the pancham composition first. let’s now move on to the song where rafi saab blessed laxmi-pyare with the words “roshan tumhi se duniya” and taught them to share the spoils between them equally:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xtlH07cylQ
In the fourth paragraph of my last post, the following should read as:
“You have not responded to my posts or posts of others, only choosing to pick and choose posts of people who are graciously being diplomatic (I don’t understand why they are, when what you are writing and have written in the past is totally absurd).”
Surajit wrote:
“I will agree with you that today’s compositions lack the melody that previously existed (even in RDB’s compositions). However, the arguement that it was Kishore’s singing that directly brought about this degradation is a rather tenous one at best.”
I was not hinting at that. In fact, I repeatedly mentioned that the flamboyance and embellishments are not exactly related to his grasp of sur and taal and hence cannot be judged in isolation without delving into the sequence and its mood. I do not think Kishore as a conscious entity brought about the degradation. It is a subtler topic of discussion -his style and gayki kicked off an irreversible dilution in the way music is perceived. In the positive sense, beyond what you already stated, Kishore democratized music from its esoteric pedestal. But it had its baggage of ill effects too.
I think each of us are judging Kishore in different capacities. I was judging Kishore’s contribution as a whole rather than focusing on his sheer singing prowess. And when we have to deal with contribution, we cannot leave out the unwanted effects. Rafi sang a lot of junk as well. But that never became Rafi’s “identity”.
To me Kishore’s best work was in Door Ka Rahi. And the films/phase where he came closest to Rafi (as the co-singer) were Nau Do Gyarah and Teen Devian. But Kishore of the 70s gradually drifted away from that youthful melody.
Without offending my dear friend Dhani Ram, I would like to agree with your observation on Mukesh. Though the occasional blemishes did not hurt the overall beauty of Mukesh’s songs because the enviable bass in Mukesh’s voice made up for lot of shortcomings. I think Mahendra Kapoor goofed up on tunes as well in some songs..Another one was Hemant Kumar. He labored to hit the ‘Sa’ in lot of songs and just brushed past those notes. But the overall beauty of Hemant Kumar’s songs were unparalleled.
Excellent post ponnaps, I fully agree with you, and you brought up a great example of RMIM, where there are many KK fanatics who write a lot of nonsense for the sake of writing. I think your post should act as the final nail in the coffin, something to end this so called debate which is a joke.
As can be clearly seen, Rafi is undoubtedly the best of all time, in every department of singing, and nothing will change that. I find it absurd that others come to this site proclaiming their bias to be the truth, when frankly it is utter nonsense.
Mr. Bose, you are wasting your time in trying to create a fact out of nothing, I suggest you spend your time writing such things elsewhere, where other KK fanatics will take a liking to. There is nothing to debate (and if you want to debate, then you should write objectively and not in a subjective way), and you are continuously hitting your head against a brick wall. Why not join in the discussions about Rafi, and not bring Kishore into the mix, a singer who is not worthy of being in the same breath as Rafi.
You have not responded to my posts or posts of others, only choosing to pick and choose posts of people who are graciously being diplomatic, even though they themselves know what you are saying is hopeless and crazy. Your posts are full of only your opinions, and bias, along with many contradictions, and you’re going around in circles trying to make something out of nothing. You know that what you are saying is just your opinion and if you actually want to debate in an objective way, you won’t get far which is why I feel you are not responding to the majority of posts (including mine). However that is fine, I suggest you don’t respond, because I don’t want to have to pinpoint the flaws of your arguments time and time again if you are claiming your opinions as facts. If you are claiming your opinions as simply opinions, then that’s fine, you should stick to that, but it seems to me you want to give others lessons about what you think are facts based on your bias views, which is absurd.
It’s great that you love Kishore, and that he is your favourite, but don’t compare him or anyone to Rafi. By doing so, your case will drown further and further. If you wanted to debate objectively, you would have done that from the beginning, but all your posts have shown so far is your subjective views which you claim as facts (and which are not facts), and nothing objective, which is why this is not a “real” debate.
If you get past your bias and subjective views, you will definitely realize that Rafi has no equal, and that he is the greatest singer of all time.
Surajit Ji,
Unfortunately all the youtube links that I sent you in post 1191 have been deleted today. Only the 3rd link is available. Please do hear the third song though. In any case, I have the mp3s of all the songs with me. I will upload the songs in mediafile or rapidshare and send you the link so that you can download them and hear them.
Thanks,
Pardus
Sudip and Dhani ram,
If you are interested (you seem to be, from your posts), I can email you some good songs of Kishore you might not have heard before. Hopefully, you will enjoy them as a refreshing change.
Just ping me at surajitbs at gmail dot com and I will send you the songs.
Hi Sudip,
Your post has tread an off-beat path but it is something I agree with wholeheartedly.
The fact that a lot of kishore’s ” ’70’s songs” are still a rage today has much more to do with their music itself, than because of Kishore’s “bad singing”. RDB had brought in a fusion of western and indian music that took the film industry by a storm, and the effects are still lingering.
You mentioned that Kishore’s singing made it appear that anybody with a mic and a loud voice can become singers. Even though you didn’t mean it as a meritorious statement, I would like to put a positive spin to it. Kishore made it appear easier than it actually was.
However, my point in the original post was a tad different. My point was:
1. Kishore had a unique voice in that it never appeared jaded until into the ’80’s. It appeared as much youthful and buoyant in the 1970’s when he sang for RDB as it did in the 1950’s when he sang for a whole other set of MDs. The same couldn’t be said of the other singers of his generation.
2. Even disregarding the point above, he retained a zest and enthusiasm for singing that was really infectious. And at the same time, he never sacrificed his feel for the subtler emotions. These can be heard in all the soft, sentimental, and romantic songs that I had already pointed to. He always had this feel. You could argue that his renditions in this genre don’t really captivate you, but that would again be subjective. For me, his renditions in “Jhumroo” and “Door gagan ki chaon mein” are so touching that I never fail to get a lump in my throat.
People talk about how RDB brought about a not-so-positive change to the music scene. However, people forget that this kind of change always happened. Even during the 1950’s, C.Ramachandra, Naushad, OPN, SJ, Salil etc. all represented a change from the 1930’s and 1940’s. And the previous generation of MDs like Anil Biswas, Khemchand Prakash etc. were not entirely happy. What’s more, they couldn’t adapt to that change and slowly faded away. Just like Naushad, OPN, SJ all faded away once RDB, along with LP and KA, brought about a new twist in the 1970’s.
I will agree with you that today’s compositions lack the melody that previously existed (even in RDB’s compositions). However, the arguement that it was Kishore’s singing that directly brought about this degradation is a rather tenous one at best.
Dhani ram,
Thanks a lot for your sincere compliments. I always feel this is how a debate should be. We can all have our likes and biases and still be civil, and bring a certain sophistication and objectivity to our views.
Coming back to your post, I feel we are both looking at different things. You, like most others here, are looking at the measurable merit of the compositions itself from the point of view of a classicist. I had already stated in my previous posts that that is something I was not debating. My stand vis-a-vis kishore is regarding the vocal skills and voice control that Kishore exhibited during the course of his singing career. The level of voice control and the varied vocal skills that Kishore demonstrated over the years is, IMO, very much underrated, and is second to none as far as playback singing is concerned.
That is why, I tend to rank Mukesh below both Rafi and Kishore. For sure, I love many of his compositions and his renditions. But, from the point of view as a puritan and an objective analyst, the very fact that he can go very much off-key sometimes degrades from his capabilities as a top-notch singer. Add to this the fact that his songs don’t cover as many moods as either Kishore or Rafi. I have nothing against the beauty of his compositions as such.
I would love to share a few songs of Kishore with you. If you have really heard all of Kishore’s songs, you would not say that his voice is not mellifluous. One doesn’t have to be a fan of Kishore to note that his was one of the most “pakke surwaali” voices ever to grace the HFM scene.
Please drop me an email at surajitbs at gmail dot com. I will email you the songs.
“not singing is not the same as not being able to sing†but is the result of not being given songs to sing isnt it??…
MDs never had much faith in kk’s abilities and hence didnt give those lovely songs which went to Rafi and hence he was ‘not singing’..this is equivalent to saying ‘not being able to sing’…its just a play on words to circumvent facts…
Your earlier statement that KK was a true musical genius is easily written but ridiculous to say the least..are you saying that the gr8 MDs of the past failed to recognise this genius and since you have recognised it,by inference you are more capable than those past masters??Ever given it a thought why the great MDs of the past failed to recognise this so cause genius???Perhaps therein will lie the answer to all your claims…
Terms like ‘genius’,’had potential’,’great talent’ are easily bandied about but have little meaning without a body of work to substantiate..people confuse genius with eccentricity…marry 4-5 times,talk to trees and birds,go into prolonged periods of solitude,hold producers at ransom for not paying for an earlier song ,display other eccentricities and you automatically qualify to become a genius…
get an ordinary tune and turn it into magic with your own value-adds,taking a great tune to another level by the strength of ones renditional capabilities now that would be the work of a genius…I just dont find such capabilities in kk’ body of work…almost all of Rafi’s renditions are examples of this ability to raise the song to another level…ofcourse one might say its subjective assessment but how do you explain the fact that singers like abhijit,kk(new one),earlier sanu could easily reproduce a kk song in the same if not better way and many of them prhaps even in their sleep…
talent/potential is what talent/potential can produce…I can claim to the world I have talent/potential but no one’s gonna beleive me unless I output…ofcourse I can turn eccentric and have a fan following who will later on write reams on my suppossed talent/potential but with little work to show its all a supposition…
getting into a subjective mode of discussion to prove anything is fruitless..we will have only opinions which arise out of our own regional,religious,cultural prejudices…coming to think of it even a subjective discussion can yield some pretty useful data for an objective analysis…looking at the demography of posters in rmim and those out here and it appears that a majority of kk fans come from that belt of India that includes bengal and orrisa…one would hardly find a “staunch” KK supporter from other parts…wheres you’d have many a Rafi fan from all over India…infact Rafi seems not only to have a pan-india fan following but also a global following..
a case in point is Sanjiv Ramabhadran who is half Iyengar half marathi born and brought up in the US and is a die-hard rafian..((digressing a little,you must listen to him on youtube and his website sureelesapne.com..a real rafi fan who walks his talk…ofcourse he is also a winner of the Saregama grand finale which Sonu used to conduct))..why arent there many staunch supporters of KK in rest of India??..we have guys from kerala who adore KJY but consider Rafi as King,me from south as well love SPB to bits but consider Rafi the best…there are other examples abound but I took only those in south india as it has its own great legacy of regional music and Rafi sahabs singing has overcome that inherent mountain of bias…
further,the pattern of arguments of a kk fan belies any real objectivity…its more of chasing a personal agenda a personal conviction and kind of fanaticism more than any substantiative arguments in singing capabilities…there is a funny piece in rmim by Abhay Avachat which captures very well the hollow pattern of arguments by a kk fan..read it here http://www.thaxi.usc.edu/rmim/sami/R-kkKlanAbhay.txt …are the KK fans just in it to boost their egos,flash their writing skills,try to push through doctrines??sometime me me think many KK fans are really closet rafi fans but due to some inherent bias dont want to admit so and hence want to experiment(and some enforce) their views on open forums…
another profile assesment is that of age…many KK fans are neo-hfm listeners..being born and brought up in KK times the procilivity to KK music is obvious…but rafi fans are from,well,8 to 88,as the saying goes…you can see this in this forum itself..it may sound silly to bring age into this but when youve just been fed on staple kk fare from your younger days then you dont know any better and dont want to accept any better..its like indoctrination of the taliban kind on children who arent exposed to anything else in this world than narrow views of the world..IMO KK fans gradually mature into Rafi fans..I have personally known many such..
you can only infer the obvious from all this…and I neednt elucidate what it is…
Mukesh’s voice sounded youthful even in the 70’s as well, and he retained his vocal timbre throughout his career right up until his last days. Rafi and Mukesh were never hit by this so called “generation gap”, whereas I feel Kishore was.
I disagree, I think Rafi is very popular among the youth, this has always been the case, regardless of the year or decade.
I also disagree about Kishore’s voice not being hit by the generation gap. It definitely was hit by the generation gap, and as I mentioned this before, in the 70’s and later, his voice sounded older and more rougher compared to before, so I don’t understand how anyone can term his 70’s and later voice as youthful in general. During that time (I mentioned this before), only some composers used his voice better than others, they were able to bring out a different shade of his voice, which was better than what other composers brought out, however the drawbacks of his voice (rough, shrill, old, not smooth etc.) were present even then, and in general (as I mentioned before) Kishore’s voice was like that during that time as well. His earlier voice in the 50’s and 60’s sounded much better, even though I wouldn’t bracket it among the greatest voices of all time, but it had this vibrance and freshness to it, which disappeared later on.
Rafi’s voice retained its outstanding flavour, freshness, and youthfulness in every year, decade, and era. For example, look at how Rafi matched Rishi Kapoor, as if Rishi was singing himself, such was Rafi’s amazing voice and genius.
This post is exclusively for pardus ji – post 1207 (my other friends to kindly excuse me)
Have you got your feedback from Mr. Surajit A Bose ji. I am interested to know what he says. I should congratulate you, you have posted 7 ghantasala ji numbers all greater in their own way. I am sorry to say, why you are asking bose ji to find flaws in these great numbers, Is Mr. bose so qualified to comment. I do not know sir what is the knowledge of Mr. Bose on music (because i read in one message viz., khan ji had asked him to share his music knowledge but Mr. Bose skipped the message ). So I have my own doubts on music knowledge of Mr. Bose. Anyhow, let bose ji give his immature views, All our friends have now got habituated to hear his self analysis of music by this time. (he started challenging the great rafi’s rendering)
Binu nair ji, Myk saab, (I hope Mr. Bose also notes this)
Is bose ji qualified to pass comments on numbers of great singers like rafi & ghantasala. My friend MYK ji has explained in a balanced way regarding the greatness of rafi ji, yet Mr. bose is proceeding in his own way. Sir, pl. do not waste time on unnecessary arguments as i personally feel, contribution of these greats cannot be put up for arguments with people possessing half baked knowledge. It is only a sheer waste of time. (this will only help us in increasing the number of messages here) Let us continue to share great musical numbers and enjoy true music.
I would like to address three comments made in recent posts:
Surajit wrote: “One aspect of Kishore that nobody notices is that out of all the singers from his generation, his was the only voice that was not hit by the generation gap.”
P. Haldar wrote: “It heralded a generation of sab-janta bengalis (now in the 35-50 age group) who think that film music began and ended with lord pancham and guru kishore.”
Dhani Ram wrote: “i can understand.what they themselves produce repels me.kishore is the icon for such people.there is nothing of the spirit of indian classicism,ghazal,qawali or thmri in it”
I think all these point to one thing-Kishore’s relative popularity among the current generation. While we cannot ignore the “recency” factor (as Haldar had earlier pointed out), I think this subject needs a deeper scrutiny and a profound analysis that spans beyond the lines of music. It is almost foolhardy to attempt that sociological analysis in the space provided in this forum, but I will try to be brief.
I do not know what the ages of people in this forum are. I have a guess that I am younger than Dhani Ram and Haldar but a tad older than Surajit. Half my life was spent in the pre-1990 (or pre-liberalized) India and half post. To me the social transformation that ensued in India post 1990 is no less than what one would expect in Germany after the fall of the Berlin wall.
The new India is a confused, yet seemingly confident lot. It wants to take on the world with a show of confidence that borders on arrogance, but with what’s devoid of any substance. The new India is about youth and exuberance, but not about maturity and introspection.. In this apparent overdose of “positivism”, what we find is an overwhelming dominance of youth-centric stuff-discos, twenty-twenty cricket, pubs, shopping malls. The only way that India proposes to keep up with China is by claiming India, thanks to China’s “one child policy” has more youth population than China. Ridiculous!
Therefore, everything I see in India today themes around “youth” and “prosperity”, whether its reality shows or movies or music. The other elements and shades of our society are therefore forgotten or ignored; no one makes movies or music for the “old”, the “sickly” or the “poor”..Forget “Do Bigha Zameen”. Even Raj Khosla’s middle class themes are a sacrilege to today’s generation. Shankar, Ehsan and Loy are a talented lot, but are operating well within this social framework..
Anyone who has seen the Olympic Opening ceremony would admit how culturally enriched and indigenous a show can be, without the vulgar display and huff-n-puff by the rock-n-roll generation comprising Aksay Kumar and Shilpa Shetty. While China (or any other developed/developing country) prides itself in maturity, “maturity is precisely the commodity scarcest within our precincts” (I am quoting Dr. Ashok Mitra here).
It is therefore, well understood why Kishore’s kind of music would find a safe haven in today’s “happening places”-the pubs, discos, reality shows..Kishore’s songs exude exactly the same degree of “positivism” that the youth are yearning for.. Its their steroid in this “journey to nowhere”! The finer senses of loyalty, grief, pathos and any form of non-hedonistic passion are not important or are long lost!
I also mentioned in an earlier post that Kishore’s success in the 70s was itself product of changing times, both in technological as well as social terms.. Let me conclude by posing an “apparently” superficial question: “How many Kishore songs are purely accompanied by a tabla?” (i.e. no western drums used at all)..I may be ignorant but I would be obliged if someone can point to more than 5 songs.. Till then…
dear surajit
each art and cultural form has certain well-established standards and norms.within those norms there is a lot of room for experimentation and creativity.the standards are set by general consent by a culture community.if there are no norms,then it is each for himself and resultant anarchy.now we have to look up to the best in the field to know what the best music is.
all those who matter know that classical music is the best.despite the fact that classical music has been on oxygen after independence because general public has no training and appetite for it.Personally i spend 80 percent time listening to classical music,both our own and western.i have some training also in hindustani music.i turn to film music only for its melody.kishori amonkar,for example,is a very great classical singer.but as abida praveen,the well-known pakistani sufi singer has said,she loves to listen to lata for sheer sweetness of voice.when i turn to film music,i seek in it a manifestation,not an exact imitation,of classical music.for me then tbe best film music should blend classical spirit with mellifluousness of voice.unfortunately,i don’t find that blend in much,too much of kishore.here and there i find pleasant songs of kishore but when i compare those songs to,let us say talat’s,I am terribly disappointed.that is why i apply the test of a hundred songs.a cd of selected 100 songs of mukesh would be far sweeter than kishore’s.take these two duets : aa neel gagan tale piar hum karein and yeh raat yeh chandni phir kahaan (lata-hemant,there are many more by the duo),i find nothing as enchanting as these in kishore repertoire.but if i were the only one to feel this,i would consider it purely subjective.with me stand a very large number of top musicians.in another post i have mentioned ramnarayanji.mehdi hassan once paid a glowing tribute rafi.then yeshudas,a classicist himself and so on.
kishore has his constituency.kishore came to be recognised as a singer only with retrospective effect after his work in the seventies.in the golden era,he might have drawn miniscule attention of this md or that,but practically he was nowhere.when hmv used to bring out best songs of the period,it never included even one by kishore.and seventies lead directly to the current noise and kishore is popular among the noisy lot.in an interview in the indian express,shankar ehsan loy were asked: rafi or kishore?they unanimously said kishore.i can understand.what they themselves produce repels me.kishore is the icon for such people.there is nothing of the spirit of indian classicism,ghazal,qawali or thmri in it.i like rafi.take his qawali;yeh maana meri jaan mohabbat saza hai magar ismein maza kis liye hai.now technically rafi doesn’t and is not allowed also to sing taans and repetitions and thus may not sing with the same skill as nusrat,the latter doesn’t have the sweetness of rafi.it is not just my subjective opinion.otherwise nusrat would have been asked to sing that qawali for the film.
so speaking objectively in the golden era of hindi music it was rafi who held sway.you have stated in one post that kishore kept away from what he couldn’t do well.it is simply not true.there is a ghazal beautifully sung by jagjit and chitra.sarakti jaaye hai rukh se naqab ahista ahista.kishore has also sung it for some film and how disastrously.
you dismiss mukesh because he goes offbeat sometime.sometimes he is horrendously offbeat and i know several of his such songs.but interestingly,sitar meastro ravi shankar used mukesh’s voice for one of his compositions.i have forgotten the song.it must have been for anuradha.
in interview khayyam said that his best songs in kabhi kabhi were given to mukesh because of the quality of his voice and as there were some young characters also in the film the youthful stuff went to kishore.this what the top mds thought kishore fit for.by and very large.
anilji and surajit sir
another favourite of mine is: phool sa chehra chand si rangat chaal qyamat kya kahiye.I can’t imagine anybody,including ghantsalaji,being able to sing this song.and only singing at this level is worth anything.the rest is just jarring cacophany.can you give the internet cite for this song for the benefit of others?
kishoreda’s best somehow doesn’t meet the highest standards of singing.this september,in the nau do gyarah slot of farishta channel of radio worldspace, four programmes of two hours’ duration each were broadcast in which Pandit ramnarayanji,the great sarangi maestro,a top classicist and padam vibhushan awardee,played about 150 songs of his choice alongwith comments here and there.quite obviously a pride of place was given to rafi sahib’s songs,includidng two non-film khayyam compositions.there was much of mukesh also and ramnarayanji esp praised mukesh’s rendering of dil jalta hai to jalne de , teri dunya mein dil lagta nahee and kuchh sheyar sunaata hun main.he praised manna de and hemant also.but and a big but,not even one song of kishore was included.this is what classicits think of the relative merits of different singers.
nevertheless,i must compliment surajit sir for triggering a lively debate and his decency and sophistication throughout.as a fellow lover of music,whatever be our differences and however barbed our observations(sometimes natural in a debate),he deserves our respect and affection.
ref post 1211:
sudip said: “On this point, I would like to raise Kishore’s direct contribution to the utter and abject deterioration of Bengali songs. Before Kishore came into the scene, Bengali songs represented the dhoti-clad, intelligent bhadralok, lipsync’ed by the likes of Uttam Kumar, Shubhendu and Soumitra. The songs were soft, melodious and poetic. Hemanta, Manna, Satinath, Manabendra, Shyamal represented a generation of soothing Bengali melodies such as ‘ke prothom kachey esechey’, ‘ei meghla diney ekla’, ‘jeebankhatar proti patay’, ‘ami je jalsagharey’. AND THEN CAME KISHORE backed by RD and Bappi’s drumbeats. The slide started with ‘Ek tanetey jemon temon’, ‘E amar guru dakshina’, ‘Ei je nadi’, ‘Ei to jeeban’……The heavy, deep throated singing never suited the romantic Bengali intelligentsia and hence we observed the utter degradation and dilution of quality music.. Bengali songs today, are a history of the past.. ”
If I could add to what sudip wrote, I’d say that the damage was far greater than the damage to bengali music. It heralded a generation of sab-janta bengalis (now in the 35-50 age group) who think that film music began and ended with lord pancham and guru kishore. These are the same people who mention “mera jeevan kora kagaz” and “hum bekhudi mein” in the same breath. They should get their ears checked before commenting on music.
I agree with Sudip, that Kishore’s sentimental songs are not ‘sentimental’ in the real sense, because Kishore sang them like he sang any other song, straight and without variation.
A song like “Zindagi ka safar” is the same as “Chingari koi bhadke”, which is the same as “Badi sooni sooni hai” which is the same as “Duniya O Duniya” etc.
Also, Kishore’s singing did not have the emotional depth and impact like the singing of Rafi, Mukesh, Yesudas and others. Kishore scored points on simple and straight songs, and that was it, he could not go further up the ladder because he was limited. This is why he can never be placed in the same category as Rafi and Lata, and in the same category as Mukesh, Yesudas, Asha etc.
Dear P. Haldar,
Thanks for bringing up the CKP song. It is a gem of a composition by Pancham, and beautifully sung by ‘Saatwan Sur’.
What is your opinion on Kalyanji-Anandji ?. You mentioned the CKP song being similar to the Kaise Kahoon song, how about one which came in the same year as SDB’s gem, “Yeh baat hoti hai” from Majboor (1964), a beautfiful song, where K-A matched both father and son in that genre of songs. This composition also showcased K-A’s great classical and ghazal skills. Here is the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAlwSWRAcIg
I am surprised that not much is written on this combo when talking about Rafi, and in general as well. Everyone chooses to concentrate on S-J and L-P, and put these two genius brothers from Gujarat, to the sidelines. These guys were major forces in HFM history, and wer undoubtedly two of its greatest ever composers. Just look at the songs they came out with, in their own unique style. Also, they probably made the best use of a variety of singers, Rafi, Lata, Mukesh, Asha, Kishore, Mahendra Kapoor (who sadly passed away yesterday), Manna etc.
Talk about Rafi songs, I rank “Tere jaisa kaun hai” (Tamanna) as one of Rafi’s Top 10 romantic songs of all time. He sang a great variety for them, even as late as 1980, there is “Kisi aasman pe to saahil milega” the Gulzar gem from Kashish, and “Tu hai kahan” a great dard-bhari song from Log Kya Kahenge that released in 1982. There are too many songs to talk about from KA/Rafi, I will mention them gradually in further posts, but how about their Lata-Rafi duets. Save SJ, K-A stand alone in this depeartment (for me), the duets they created for the greatest duet pair are out of this world. They always gave Rafi outstanding songs right from the 50’s to the 80’s, and they were the most prolific with him (out of all singers) until 1980. Had Rafi lived longer, we would have seen more magic from the three of them.
Also, K-A are the most popular composers for foreign fans of HFM (something I recently found out from a journalist friend of mine), and this says a lot about them and their music. They don’t get credit for their revolutionary impact when discussing HFM, their songs and albums set new trends. Listen to a good number of their songs in the late 60’s and you will hear electronic sounds, something Kalyanji pioneered when he assisted Hemant Kumar in the 50’s, and this was something trend-setting and unique. Albums such as Haseena Maan Jaayegi, Aamne Samne, JJPK, Mahal etc. were revolutionary in their own way, and were mixes of western and indian but with a different and modern approach. So if at one end you had S-J going the western way, at the other end of the spectrum you had a different western approach from K-A. Then RD came in, and his western approach was also different. K-A also had amazing melody in their songs, and their folk tunes and indian-based compositions were in a class of their own. Ofcourse their western-based songs were excellent as well.
Kishore’s voice definitely sounded comparitively worse in general in the 70’s and 80’s compared to earlier, in the 50’s and 60’s. His voice anyhow never had the depth as that of Rafi or Mukesh and others, and always had a shrill tinge to it, and it began to clearly show as early as 1970. Only some composers such as Rajesh Roshan were able to bring out the softer side, but still the other downsides of his voice were even present then, but used to be sometimes covered up when he sang for RR and some others. I find it ridiculous to say the least, when somone mentions his voice was youthful in the 70’s. The only singer who was youthful throughout his career (40’s, 50’s, 60’s, 70’s and 80’s) and who’s voice never looked jaded was Rafi. Mukesh even souded great in the 70’s just like he did previousy. Kishore sounded old and jaded by the 70’s, that I don’t understand how people thought his voice was young.
Also, Kishore never replaced Mukesh for sentimental songs in the late sixties, this is a myth and I urge others not to believe it. How many MD’s was Kishore singing for in the late sixties ?. A SDB song here and there, S-J for one song in Duniya, for Hemant in Khamoshi, and a few others here and there, and yet people make the claim he had replaced Mukesh for sentimental songs ?. Quite ridiculous again, I urge others to buy themselves a book of HFM history (if there is one) and to read it carefully before making such nonsense statements. Kishore was lucky that after Aradhana he received more sentimental songs (which in general were no great shakes), or else he’d probably have packed and left for Khandwa. Mukesh was always the choice for sentimental songs and some other types, and Rafi was always the all-rounder, always the choice for all types of songs (sentimental, romantic, ghazals, classical etc.). Rafi definitely was the best at sentimental compositions, followed by Mukesh and then others. As I mentioned before, Kishore’s overall singing took him only up to a point, and that’s it, he could not go further and elevate songs to a higher level. This was one of his drawabacks, and among his many flaws as a singer.
Let’s face it, Kishore is a nobody in the world of music when compared to Rafi, Lata, Asha, Yesudas, P Shusheela, S Janaki, Mukesh, Ghantasala etc. This is the truth, and no writing reams of posts (by others) will change this fact. Why must people try and hype Kishore for no reason ?. If you cannot accept that Rafi is the greatest, then go somewhere else and lay your frustrations elsewhere. Kishore was a great singer within his own range, and he was limited, and to put him in the company of the above mentioned greats and others is simply a joke.
There is too much of a difference in every aspect, voice, range, repertoire, depth, feeling etc. that seperates Rafi from Kishore and all other singers, and which makes Rafi the best of all time.
Hi Pardus,
I will send you detailed comments in the next post. You sent a lot of songs there, :-).
Hi Sudip,
At the outset, let me say that I agree with you that Kishore’s voice is a little too robust for the softer vocals like “Door rehkar na karo baat” or “Choo lene do”. Towards the early part of his career, he did some fine softer vocals, but Rafi’s voice just edges him in this department. Like you rightfully said, this has more to do with the texture in the voice rather than the singing capabilities itself.
However, if you are interested as a listener, I would like to share a couple of Kishore’s songs with you. You can email me at surajitbs at gmail dot com.
Coming back to your post. I agree with you about “Tum bin jaun kahan”. In fact, I always felt that Kishore’s voice at that stage was too youthful to fit an old Bharat Bhushan. I guess, probably Rafi was sort of Shashi Kapoor’s voice by then and RDB had to put Kishore for Bharat Bhushan. And Kishore probably did “sing for the crowd”.
However, there are a lot more examples where his rendition matched perfectly with the action on the screen. Some of them are: “Meri pyaari bindu” and “Ek chatur naar” from “Padosan”, “Zindagi Ek Safar Hai Suhana” from “Andaz”, “Ajnabi tum jaane pehchaane se” from “Shreeman Funtoosh”, “Jeevan se Bhari teri aankhen” and “Zindagi ka safar” from “Safar”, “Woh shaam kuch ajeeb thi” from “Khamoshi”, “Zindagi ke safar mein guzar” from “Aap ki kasam”, “Keh doon tumhe yaa chup rahun” from “Deewar”, “Sachchai chhup nahin sakthi” from “Dushman”, “Woh dekhen to unki inaayat” from “Funtoosh”, “Duniya o duniya” from “Naya Zamana”, “Hum hain raahi pyar ke” and “Aankhon mein kya ji” from “Nau do gyarah”, “Khaike paan banaraswala” from “Don”, “Nakhrewaali” from “New Delhi”, songs from “Paying Guest” etc.
These songs encompass different music directors and different moods and are from different time periods. And Kishore did great in all of them. All the embellishments, and the richness of his voice, add a lot to the popularity of these songs. And never did it appear that he overdid them here.
The pain you feel when you listen to “Zindagi ke safar mein guzar jaate hain” or “Teri duniya se hoke majboor chala” or “Dil aisa kisi ne mera toda” or “Badi sooni sooni hai” is as deep as the exuberance you experience from “Zindagi ek safar hai suhana” or “Yeh jawani, hai diiwaani” or “jawani o diwani tu zindabad”, as is the romance you feel from “Roop tera mastana” or “Dil kya kare” or “Bhool gaya sab kuch”.
I also disagree with you regarding “Chingari koi Bhadke”. As I said previously, this is not a sad song per se. It’s just a moody, pensive song that was beautifully rendered. It suits the situation perfectly. A disillusioned idealist, choosing alchoholism and “true love” from a danseuse as a means of escapism, just expressing his feelings by singing aloud (as if to himself) on a small boat. The sweet Gandhar of Kishore’s voice is such a treat here. In fact, all the songs of “Amar Prem” are jewels. “Yeh kya hua” is such a pleaser, as is “Kuch to log kahenge”. I guess, different strokes for different folks.
Regarding his bengali songs, it’s hard to comment. Songs like “Aamar monor aei”, “Aami chini go chini”, “Bidhir bandhon katbe tumhi”, “Noyono soroshi keno”, “Ek din aaro galo” etc. are beautiful, soulful songs (some of them composed by himself) while a lot of them are frivolous. I haven’t seen a lot of those movies but I see that the kind of movies coming out in the ’70’s did change, even in bengal.
One aspect of Kishore that nobody notices is that out of all the singers from his generation, his was the only voice that was not hit by the generation gap. By the 1970’s, Mukesh, Talat, Hemant, and to some extent, even Rafi, suddenly sounded jaded and from a bygone era. Kishore retained the youthfulness in his voice and it certainly helped (or not helped, depending on your point of view) redefine the music of the period. And I am not talking about just the timbre and tone of the voice. I am talking about the enthusiasm and joy in singing that Kishore retained throughout most of his career. And to top it off, Kishore also replaced Mukesh as the choice for sentimental songs as well, by the late ’60’s.
It disgusts me, as a Kishore fan, the infamy that Kumar Sanu has brought upon Kishore. But, in all fairness, a large part of the blame also lies on RDB for making compositions that stood the test of time. Sanu, knowing that RDB’s songs are just as popular with the young laymen today as they were 20-30 yrs ago, cleverly rendered a “lite” version of his songs. And he was lucky that many of those people who were in their teens during the ’90’s probably hadn’t heard the originals in a long while.
Just compare Sanu’s version with Kishore’s version, and you will see a yawning difference in the feel, the depth, and the expression. There is simply no comparision.
Feel free to drop me an email at surajitbs at gmail dot com. We can exchange some good songs.
xxx and dhani ram ji…
there are countless songs which refuse to lie “low” even after 60 years and most of them are in the voices of mohd rafi, lata, mukesh and talat saaheb. and some songs have died and any attempts to resurrect them will be futile as many great singers and composers – tried and failed in their attempts.
songs of kohinoor, baiju bawra,albela, tumsa nahin deka, kashmir ki kali, mughul-e-azam, junglee, phir wohi dil laaya hoon, kaajal, zindagi, dil apna preet paraye, pakeezah, hum dono, aarzoo, suraj, dastak and many many more films are bound to remain – evergreen.
yes some writers will go on to great heights and say their favourite composer or singer – is the best. pls . do not be surprised if this kishore kumar lover will say that “sholays” music is the best and evergreen although most of the songs make you run away farthest from the music system.
i think the biggest problem this kishore kumar lover finds in mohd rafi is that – rafi saaheb is not a bengali. if he was so, this gentleman would have written reams and reams and reams about the beauty of mohd rafi songs.
and left kishore kumar to rest in peace at his khandwa residence in madhya pradesh.
binu nair, mumbai.
Surajit:
Kishore was indeed very good in the pensive, introspective songs, especially of the RD kind. Several songs come to mind such as, ‘Badi sooni sooni hai’ (I know it’s SD, but for all practical purposes it was an RD composition), ‘Phir wohi raat hai’, ‘Rimjhim gire saawan’…RD somehow had this passion for introspective tunes, interspersed with light drum beats..Somehow, I always felt that these tunes are very “urban” and hence limited.. But nevertheless, they are very good.
I do however disagree with you the Kishore grasped the nuances. Of the composition-maybe yes, especially when it comes to RD. But of the sequence; I doubt. Take “Tum bin jayoo kahan”. Kishore fans often tout the introductory humming as innovative. Maybe it is innovative, but grossly inappropriate too. It spoils the whole song for me. In the movie Bharat Bhusan is a middle aged farmer singing this song with certain tone of sadness. I have, in my entire life, haven’t seen a single middle-aged farmer yodel youthfully like that. Take a look and judge for yourself how well that piece gels with the sequence and Bharat Bhusan’s constipated delivery:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQHpmwu46RA&feature=related
Kishore clearly sang this song “to the crowd” and hence his version went on to become more popular. Rafi was more truthful to the sequence of the song.
As I mentioned before, I do not doubt Kishore’s ability to render a song but I do have problems with the richness and embellishments that come as a baggage.
As an analogy, let me cite Amitabh Bachchan in Baagwan (and a string of recent movies). Directors and producers had suddenly started fielding Amitabh as a dilapidated pensioner, but sorry, with due regards to his enormous acting potential, he DOES NOT depict one.. The traditional pensioner in our mind is the dimunitive AK Hangal and not a 6 feet 3 inches man with a sonorous voice who can dance and fight with people half his age..It is not Amitabh’s fault, just as it is not Kishore’s.. They are just not suited for these genres.
To me a romantic song has to have some innate mellowness, because there is a degree of “pledge” in the form of oriental romance. Kishore’s voice is suited for a bolder, assertive portrayal-“Dilbar mere kab tak mujhe”. The beauty of Victorian romance lies in its secrecy, in the unsung words, in the whispers, the untold proclamation. That’s Rafi in “Choo lene do na” or “Tumse kahoon ek baat”.
I have seen Kishore’s clones sing full-throttled Chingari and Humen tumse pyar in broad daylight in front of thousands. Everytime I heard that, I thought there has to be something wrong in either the original itself or in the interpretation of the original. Again it is not a problem that’s evident in the singing, the richness and embellishments just robbed the songs of the finesse they deserved and hence the way they ought to have been treated by the subsequent generations.
The reason you see junkies like Abhijeet and Sanu today is precisely that. The flamboyant gayki of Kishore gives the impression that “anyone with a voice and a microphone have the right to sing their hearts out”..Again it is not his direct fault, but when we evaluate his contribution as a whole, we can’t discount that fact.
On this point, I would like to raise Kishore’s direct contribution to the utter and abject deterioration of Bengali songs. Before Kishore came into the scene, Bengali songs represented the dhoti-clad, intelligent bhadralok, lipsync’ed by the likes of Uttam Kumar, Shubhendu and Soumitra. The songs were soft, melodious and poetic. Hemanta, Manna, Satinath, Manabendra, Shyamal represented a generation of soothing Bengali melodies such as ‘ke prothom kachey esechey’, ‘ei meghla diney ekla’, ‘jeebankhatar proti patay’, ‘ami je jalsagharey’. AND THEN CAME KISHORE backed by RD and Bappi’s drumbeats. The slide started with ‘Ek tanetey jemon temon’, ‘E amar guru dakshina’, ‘Ei je nadi’, ‘Ei to jeeban’……The heavy, deep throated singing never suited the romantic Bengali intelligentsia and hence we observed the utter degradation and dilution of quality music.. Bengali songs today, are a history of the past..
Rafi’s tonal quality was also matchless and second to none. Most singers require technology to make their voices sound good but in the case of Rafi, his voice was so good that even in the era of less technology, he sounded magical. Also, one of the ways to judge a great singer is how they sound ‘live’, as opposed to just in the recording studio. In this case, Rafi sounded as good live as he did in the recording studio, which is testimony to his brilliance.
On another topic, SDB was one composer who used Kishore in a great way. He didn’t expose Kishore’s flaws, and made him sing songs that suited his range. On the other hand, Pancham gave Kishore songs that totally exposed his serious flaws and drawbacks.
Rafi’s songs are definitely ‘technically’ much superior to any songs by other singers. This is not a subjective claim, but one of truth and reality. A person who has any musical knowledge will agree. When bias creeps in, one will say the opposite (as has been shown recently in this thread), but it doesn’t take away from the fact that Rafi’s songs are technically much superior to Kishore’s or any other singer’s songs.
ref post 1202:
dhani ram ji:
“dil mein ik jaane tammanna ne jagah pai hai,aaj gulshan mein naheen ghar mein bahaar aayee” is a wonderful song. Why hear from us when the maestro himself had commented about the giant by humming this song (see mr. raju korti’s post). sd had once said that rafi was his first serve and kishore his second. The first serves used to be served at such speed that they sometimes became faults (only as far as public taste is concerned), but if you analyse those faults carefully you’ll find that the referee (the public) might have erred in making some of those calls.
myk has cited another sd composition “dil ka dard nirala” from kaise kahoon. rd had also composed a tune in the same genre, “tumhe dekha hai”, in chandan ka palna. Just listen to this song and see how rafi weaves his magic through the tune and the lyrics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqtl4Fawc2M
After the song was delivered, the young pancham had told the titan, “But Rafisaab, I didn’t compose this song.”
After you listen to this song, you’d realise why he had said that. People who compare kishore’s improvisation with rafi’s have no idea of music. Yes, kishore could improvise, but rafi could improvise ten times more. I have commented earlier that rafi’s voice had too many degrees of freedom; there were two famous md’s who would allow him to go in any direction he wanted to (I’m not including ka-lp-rd in this list). Naushad and roshan, on the other hand, would give rafi very little room to manoeuvre in terms of the tune; the improvisation would be mainly in the delivery of the words. But sd and, to some extent, madan mohan, would try to strike a balance and give rafi ample room to rafi to improvise. Listen to “apni to har aah ek toofan hai” from kala bazaar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KOYCgXLn3g
What modulation, what control! If you ask me, “Why wasn’t this an ace?”, I’d have to say, “I don’t know, maybe because khoya khoya chand overwhelmed everything else.”
Ref, Post No. 1201:
Fair enough, but just because Kishore has done well in those genres, does not mean one cannot prove “Rafi was better than Kishore”, when one can very easily prove that and when Rafi was clearly better. Just take any samples of Rafi and Kishore songs in “those” genres you mentioned, and do a technical study of them, and you will find that the Kishore songs are straight and easy to sing, whereas the Rafi songs have different complexities, varieties, variation of notes. So the technical abilities of Kishore you rave about time and time again are nothing exceptional if one were to do an objective study, its Rafi’s technical abilities in these songs and others of various genres that are exceptional. If Kishore was truly an extraordinary singer, he would have been employed by many MD’s in the 50’s and 60’s. Kalyanji mentioned that the types of songs being created in the 50’s and 60’s were not suited for Kishore. Yet you want to make the argument that Kishore was versatile enough to match Rafi which is hokey-pokey and going around the bush. Take a study of most of Kishore’s songs and you will find there is nothing even remotely difficult about them, so to say there is, is crossing the line and just out of bias. You want to ignore all the “lack of qualities” of Kishore, and yet highlight aspects you feel were there, which is just from your imagination and not true. When Kishore finally had success,
Let me just state an example of two songs to show the difference, both composed by K-A around the same time, and both of similar flavour, and both filmed on Rajesh Khanna. “Jeevan se bhari teri aankhen” (Safar) is excellent, one of my favourite Kishore songs, but the best Kishore can do is raise it to a level that he can only go to, and nothing more. His voice and skills are all present but only up to a point. For example, the “Tasveer Banaye Kya Koi Kya Koi Likhe Tujh Pe Kavita, Rangon Chhandon Mein Samayegi” part is nice, but due to Kishore’s limitations he can’t go further, and his voice doesn’t allow him to extract the needed punch at higher notes, which is why he has to resort to a softer voice at that level.
Now on the other hand, check out “Yeh raat hai pyaasi pyaasi” (Chhoti Bahu), one of my favourite Rafi songs, notice how Rafi takes the song to great lengths just by his rendition, voice and skills. For example, check out the “Pyaasi na guzar jaaye” and the “duniya savar jaaye” parts, and look at the punch Rafi is able to extract. By “punch” I mean being solid at that level, and something that catches your attention and you take notice of it. Compare the highs and lows of the songs, and you will notice a huge difference. Whereas Kishore who pulls high and only to a level where his voice can take him, and in general, that rendition is comparitvely weaker as opposed to a song where Rafi doesn’t even pull that high, and his rendition is still better and has more “punch”. If you look at the two songs objectively, leaving aside personal preferences, you can easily see the difference. I just concentrated on the high parts of the song (as an example), but in general, in all areas of both the songs, Rafi’s rendition and song is better.
Ofcourse Rafi could go to places with his voice that no other singer could, and this is just one of the countless number of example of Rafi being better than any other singer and being the best ever. One can name a countless number of examples to prove that Rafi was better than anyone else, and this is from an objective angle and not from any subjective viewpoint. Objective analysis is the best way to prove one’s point, because when viewing subjectively, one’s own preferences, choices, tastes etc. tend to come in which doesn’t quite prove anything, but just shows one’s liking towards certain things etc. Objective analysis without bias can paint the true picture, and one can prove a point.
The Chhoti Bahu song could have easily gone to Kishore, considering it was around the same time of KK’s popularity and the fact that it had Rajesh Khanna, but K-A knew Kishore’s limitations for such a song, and therefore gave it to Rafi, because only his art could do full justice to such a composition. Had Rafi sang the Safar songs, they would have been at a much higher level Kishore sang them in an excellent way, but he could not take it further, something Rafi would definitely have done. Rafi could sing Kishore’s songs and songs by other singers in his sleep, whereas Kishore and other singers could never sing Rafi songs.
Rafi had a better range than Kishore, yet you are saying that Kishore was his match ?, so this doesn’t make sense. Unless you would like to prove that Kishore’s range was as good (you will never be able to do so), no one will buy such an argument.
Rafi never exposed any flaws, in fact singing in a lot of genres, showed off Rafi’s versatility even more. The only singer who did to a large extent show off his flaws was Kishore, and you can associate Pancham with doing this. To you, Rafi may have had flaws, but that’s subjective, from an objective angle, he never had any flaws, and showed great versatility.
It’s not only a couple of genres, its many genres, such as classical, patrotic, bhajans, ghazals etc. where Rafi scores over Kishore and other singers. Yet you would like to associate Kishore with Rafi.
Ofcourse voice preference is subjective, but Rafi’s voice was much better than Kishore’s or any other singer’s voice, if you look at it objectively. Tell me of a singer who could match each actor in voice modulation, switch from soft to robust, and have such a perfect golden, sweet, melodious, smooth etc. voice.
Any knowledgeable musical mind will never put Kishore in the same league as Rafi, its a fact. So it shows, what you are saying is not based on knowledge or fact, but just your own views. So let’s draw a conclusion, that your views are purely subjective, because in reality, Rafi was much better than Kishore and others, technically more gifted, and certainly the supreme singer. Your claims are your own views, they’re not objective, and they clearly have a bias.
It is very easy to understand that Rafi was better than Kishore, if you feel otherwise, then it is purely subjective and not based on any proof. Even SPB is better than Kishore, he has a better range, has sung in more genres, and has a better voice etc. I rate Yesudas, SPB and Mukesh as the best singers after Rafi, Kishore is not anywhere near close.
You are repeatedly trying to highlight Kishore in a different light which is not taking you anywhere, and what you are saying is nothing extraordinary or new, just the same from any other Kishore fan trying to put his favourite in the same league as Rafi, and they are just your own bias views.
Also, I could name a countless number of songs and themes that Kishore and any other singer would never be able to sing and match, and which all these singers don’t have in their repetoires. It’s a very easy task. Your statement reminds of one I cam across years back, one wrote, that its “not easy to prove that Laxmikant-Pyarelal were better MD’s than Nadeem-Shravan”. Very hilarious I must say, just like your “not easy to prove Rafi was better than Kishore” staement/theory, its in the same comedy bracket, but hey everyone is entitled to their own views, no matter how “absurd” (inconsistent with reason or logic or common sense) they sound.
I find it a total waste of time to discuss such a topic, Rafi is clearly better than Kishore and better than any other singer, that going around the bush to write on this subject is not worth it. I am just writing for the sake of writing, nothing needs to be proven because it has already been proven, and I feel there are much better topics to discuss.
Surajit Bose ji,
You have skipped my request for you in post 1191. All those songs listed were of a Telugu singer named Ghantasala. Please send me your analysis of those classical songs (exactly like how you analyzed “Sakhi Ri Sun Bole” of Lata-Asha).
You can send me your analysis off-line as this is a Rafi board. I provided my e-mail address also in my previous post.
Thanks,
Pardus
Here’s one of Dhaniram sir’s picks- Parvar deegare aalam…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRBLNW454VU
And here’s personal favourite of yours truly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToM0WAi3aTc
Friends:
Please read this one:
“Yes, Rafi has probably ventured into a couple more genres that Kishore hasn’t, but in doing so, he has also exposed more flaws”.
What a statement…. (to go along with other gems).
Since this theorising has reached a crescendo, I think I’ll have to point out a few of the flaws (which are too many to list here, in full)
#1. The theory postulates that Rafisahab’s vocal range is ‘just a bit more’ than KK’s. In the ‘draft copy’ of the doctrine it was stated that Rafisahab’s range was 2 octaves while that of H.M.V (borrowing the phrase from Binu sir) was 1.5 to 1.75 ranges, when challenged Rafi sahab’s was subsequently corrected as 2.5 but along with KK’s was also given a ‘free lift’ (3 octaves with yodelling and 2 without it).
Any one who knows something about music will tell you the difference between a 2.5 octave range and 1.5-1.75 one (the factually correct ranges for the two singers in question), this is as big a difference as covering 100 mts in 10 seconds (world standards) and 12 seconds (college standards).
#2. Then there is this ‘assumption’ of Rafisahab being no great shakes in semi-classicals and the assorted degrading of ‘Duniya ke rakhwale’, ‘madhuban mein radhika’ and co. and its composer.
And to proove it, the postulator went on with many ‘corollories’ which were contradictory and each farther fromthe truth than the other.
For instance it was stated that ‘Madhuban mein radhika’ suffered on account of Rafisahab not getting the ‘gist’ of the ‘raaga’ while ‘Duniya ke rakhwale’s shortcoming was (majorly) that this ‘simple’ song was made ‘complex’ by the singer who wanted to ‘draw attention’ to his singing. So where does this place Rafisahab? Someone who is no-classical or too-classical? Or are we to take it that this Colossus is a rank bad singer who wouldn’t just get it right? And what about ‘Duniya ke rakhwale’? A nursery rhyme?
I really don’t know whether to laugh at this part of the theory or cry
#3. To proove ‘his master’s’ superiority, all sorts of doctrines were put forth, again fairy tales and assumptions.
Let’s check out one of them. It was said that KK was a ‘spontaneous’ singer who could do a lot with any song while Rafisahab was a ‘trained singer’. Remember, it had been proved before that Rafisahab wasn’t a good semi-classical singer. So what was he trained in? Qawwalies? Bhajans? Or just playback singing? Dear friends, please inform me if there was/is any such ‘gharanas’ where one was/is trained to be a play back singer. Again if you read between the lines, there is this implication that Rafisahab is some one who never really learned the ‘naunces’ despite the training.
#4. The ‘theory of subjectivity’ was another try at glorification of the mediocre. According to this theory, each one to his own… so if someone likes a David Dhawan movie, so be it..he’s the best film director, the Satyajit Rays are good for only their fans; Afridi is the best batsman in the world (so many people likes his batting and he can ‘add things to batting, trained batsmen can’t’), Sachin is the best one for his fans only (after all he has ‘technical flaws’).
#5. The best part of the package is the glorification of all the cheap numbers (only because they were sung by a particular singer). I’m sure these songs would’ve been dismissed aside by the ‘well-trained’ music expert if sung by others (esp by someone whose name starts with the alphbet ‘R’).
Finally, One can’t be too critical of the theory too, mix-ups can happen during the procees of copying and pasting from other sources…
And I’m waiting for responses on my ‘series’ of videos…
Regards and good night.
I recently saw the Sonu Nigam concert “Rafi Resurrected” where Sonu stated when he was growing up listening to many different singers, what set Rafi apart from the others was his ability to render more genre of songs than any other singer. So as Sonu sees Rafi as his guru he is following the same way and is now regarded as the top of the male class of present day singers.
As far as Rafi saab is concerned he has had a hit number in nearly every style from Ghazals, Bhajans, Rock & Roll, Qawalli, sad numbers, fast pitch, Disco, the list goes on…… so far there has NOT been any other singer that could match Rafi’s magnificent range in his voice!! If no one cannot see this then that person is blinded when it comes to recognising a really gifted singer! Kishore da himself would render a Rafi number as a tribute in his concerts, now what does that tell you – his admiration to Rafi Saab!
Kishore da was no doubt a great singer in his own right which I am personal fan but Rafi had that technical edge! Rafi would try and sing anything that came to him – Kishore did have his limitations as with the other male singers of his time. Even with fast paced numbers such as “Chal Chal aagai nikhal” a foot drum stomping number which Rafi gave a really hard punch to!. “Yamma Yamma” another example, the list can go on!
I cannot understanding how anyone can think of comparing Rafi’s range??
To dear Kishore fan Surijit ::
You brought up rotten examples to acknowledge Kishore’s talent, ok fine you please carry on listening “cheel cheel kawwa” and “aaaki seedhi lagi”, however let me inform you that true music lovers will always prefer following type of songs more than these cacophonous songs, you can also improve your taste by listening to the following numbers(if you want to do so, otherwise….)
1.Mann re tu kahe na dheer dhare– Rafi
2.sine mein sulagte hain armaan– Talat and lata
3.Jo baat tujmhe hai teri tasveer mein nahi– Rafi
4.Laaga chunri mein daag– Manna
5.Yun hasraton ke daag– Lata
6.Mohabbat hi na jo samjhe… Talat
7.Dil ka bhawar kare pukar—Rafi
8.Dekhi zamane ki yaari–Rafi
9.main kahin kavi na ban jaun—Rafi
10.na ye chand hoga–Hemant
11.jane wo kaise log the jinke– Hemant
12.Gar teri nawazish ho jaye–Talat
13.Bhooli hui yaadon–mukesh
14.o jane wale ho sake to laut ke aana-mukesh
15.din dhal jaye-Rafi
16.chuu lene do nazuk hoton ko–Rafi
17.Mile na phool to– Rafi
18.Tujhe kya sunau dilruba– Rafi
19.Mitwa lagi re kaisi anbujh aag–Talat
20.Kaun aaya mere mann ke dware–Manna
Dear Surajit
to the songs listed by Mr pardus,i wish to add: kuhu kuhu bole koyalia,a lata rafi duet from the film Swaran Sundari composed by adi narayan rao.to me it seems to as pure a classical song as the film world would allow.this song is what we expect to enjoy music at a very high level.in this one classical song lata definitely trails rafi.
All rafians
one of my favourite songs is:dil mein ik jaane tammanna ne jagah pai hai,aaj gulshan mein naheen ghar mein bahaar aayee.rafi sings it with matchless beauty.i would like to know your views.
All participants
it is a season to glorify some singers at the cost of others.one singer who is often made to pay is mukesh.but in creating sheer melody mukesh has hardly any equal (except rafi,lata and asha).one of my all time favourite is a lata mukesh duet from the obscure film madaari: dil lootne wale jaadugar ab maine tumhein pehchaana hai.any takers.mukesh is at his mellifluous best in this song.
Dhani Ram,
Firstly, I never complained that Kishore was not given an opportunity to sing more songs. My only assertion is “not singing is not the same as not being able to sing”.
Objectively, it is possible to evaluate a singer only till a certain point. Beyond that, the moment we venture into talking about different genres, we are venturing into subjective realms.
The first basic requirement for any good singer is a strong adherence to swara or what is called “sruti-shuddha”. Given a song, the singer must exhibit as good a control over his voice within all boundaries of the song as is deemed required.
Secondly, the singer must be able to grasp the nuances of the composition. It’s mood, the message the song purports to convey, how the song is to be picturized on the screen etc. This is reflected in how the singer renders the song. Modulations and inflections in the voice, change in its texture, proper punctuation involving proper placement of gaps, tailing off of the tone and so on.
Finally the singer must exhibit a technical mastery over the idiom, which manifests itself in how comfortable the singer is in rendering the song. This can also be gauged by how much the singer has contributed to the bare tune that has been handed over to him by the MD. He has to emboss with it an original personality. The artiste has to add to the skeletal tune and pass on more than what was received from the composer. Mere technique can never substitute for it. One has to supply a lot of musical imagination.
These hold true for all genres of songs. And the technical requirements, or the vocal skills that are called for, vary for songs of different genres and different moods. Fun/boisterous/happy songs call for a different set of vocal skills from sad songs and from romantic songs, and from classical songs. And vice versa.
Based on these criteria, Kishore, like Rafi, has done great in many different kinds of songs. Happy, fun, romantic, sad, rock and roll, songs of both fast-paced and slow rhythms, songs at high and low pitches.
Yes, Rafi has probably ventured into a couple more genres that Kishore hasn’t, but in doing so, he has also exposed more flaws. And regarding Mukesh, though he did well keeping within his genres, it must be admitted that he has covered fewer moods than either Rafi or Kishore. Further, he is more apt to go off-key than either Rafi or Kishore.
Except for Sudip and Manish Kumar, who have clearly stated the reasons for Rafi being their favourite singer, the rest of you are basing your claims on the assumption that Rafi’s songs are “technically superior” to Kishore’s songs. I had already stated in an earlier post that this is very subjective and misleading. Singing any of Kishore’s so-called “fun/nonsense” songs is as challenging as singing any of Rafi’s songs. The vocal skills that are called for in these songs are nothing to be sneezed at.
The issue is not whether Rafi has more beautiful compositions to his name. He probably has. But that doesn’t necessarily prove that he is the “better” singer.
Now, the moment we start talking about how Kishore’s songs do not “do anything” for you, we venture into subjective realms. Sudip and Manish Kumar, both claim that Kishore’s songs do not evince as strong an emotional response from them as does Rafi. Fair enough. It’s perfectly acceptable, but it’s also a subjective assertion. Kishore fans might say the opposite. This is something that cannot be proved or disproved.
Taste in music is, to a large extent, subjective. Unless we are talking about dudes like Sanu, Abhijeet, et al.