True Voice – Mohd Rafi
The following article was brought to my notice when Sharad posted it on MAS. The article has been trimmed down a bit keeping afloat Rafi details. However, anyone interested can go visit the source at http://tfmpage.com/forum/4980.6302.04.57.19.html
I am Swaminatha Iyer and I am 78 years old. I hail from Tiruchi and I am a part of music associations in Tiruchi, M’as as well as in West Bengal and Maharashtra.
I think it is wrong to condemn music or artists on either side of Vindhyas. Our Indian music is one of the few which has not been cleaned off by the western music though there has always been a influence. It speaks a lot of the richness of our music. Sometime back director of MTV had said that MTV westernized the music wherever it went but in India , MTV had to be Indianized for it to be accepted. A lot of this credit goes to the Indian film music.
I have been fortunate to have close personal association with Rafi, Sirkali, TMS, Dr. BMK, Kishore, SPB & KJY, PS, Mannadey and the one and only Lata Mangeshkar.
Comparisons are bound to come, but almost every artist or I have met considers Lata to be beyond comparison. Her talents are beyond anyone’s reach. Even Sirkazi used to talk of her singing like a die-hard fan as do countless others.
Now coming to the Rafi-SPB discussion. It might be difficult to convince an South Indian to believe Rafi is the better and at the same time Rafi crowd will never believe any other male singer comes anywhere nearer. There is one more mobile crowd, which is well conversant with Hindi and some south Indian language. Majority of them tilt to either Rafi or Kishore.
During one of my stays in M’as I had stayed with SPB. While talking of true voices he said, I don’t feel like half a singer when listening to Rafi. True voice is not a tech term but many in circle use it. Perfect example would be lata, but to understand consider our own PS who within her range is superb. People who do not have such true voices can never do justice to original. They generally underplay many parts of the song or fake it with bass/superficial singing. True voices make people like Sirkazi, Nusrat Fateh Ali khan, Lata… Inimitable. However since Sirkazi and Nusrat did not have the filmy voices their “real” following is limited to their local arena.
In addition to the true voice if the singer has a very good voice then in “most” cases he/she can better songs of others. It is this combination which makes Rafi stand out among the other male singers. There are many here who seem to have mistaken notions on a good bass and also on high pitch.
Bryan Adams does not require a monster bass in “Summer of 69” to sound real manly. It is the punch which gives that feel and that is decided only by the comfort level in most ranges (that is by what your throat can support). This you CAN never disguise with bass. Since people have talked about lack of manly voice viz. a viz. Rafi it was necessary to bring this point out. I have had the fortune of listening to most singers in studio and some times without a mike, practicing with MD’s.When Lata or Rafi do, the level is so high that people hesitate to even hum. It felt silly to sing in their presence (and it feels silly when someone says his voice isn’t manly).
In RD’s tribute when SPB sang “Aaja Aaja mein hoon” or “Chaand mera dil” it sounded only sweet and lacked punch if you compare with Rafi’s original.
Yesu once told me God has been partial to Rafi. He said “god gift term anavasyamaa romba common aa ippo use aardu”.. but idu Rafi kee thaan 100% porundu”. This person could sing “as intricately as a lady without sounding thin”, “cover any mood”, “versatility odey perfect example Rafi”. Yesu said most important is the comfort level over ranges which makes you feel God has been partial to Rafi. (But Of course in Rafi’s early career (1950’s) the voice was relatively feeble).
To people exposed to Rafi’s talent, these or any amount of praise can only seem less. I just wish he was alive and you people could get a live chance to hear him. Probably you can get hold of the DD album for the Geet Gaata Chal series where the first four episodes were dedicated to Rafi. Rafi is on camera singing “O Duniya Ke Rakwaaley” and many other songs. If you see and hear the last part you will realize why SPB said “impossible”. I think particularly those people who have talked about scales w.r.t Rafi should see this album. Its a known fact in industry that Rafi ruled high pitch and there is no male singer better in switching notes so easily. There are artists who can go beyond but then they sound strained or they don’t have pleasant voices when they venture into those territories.
Many singers of today are his compulsive followers. But they end up inheriting only part of his quality. Md. Aziz ended up with a sad voice. Mahendra Kapoor with a thick nasal voice. Anwar with a nasal voice. Sonu Nigam with a feminine voice. Rafi neither had a soft voice nor a heavy (bass) voice he had a good voice. Importantly did not strain at high notes, and voice if at all only became better at higher notes. If you see him singing it will remind you of Janaki. However diff the song is or the note is he will be smiling and singing. It is unthinkable that he cannot sing something.
There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo” song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect. There are lot of other songs of SPB where this great singer has played with songs in total control. You will find most south Indian singers who have had a good exposure say that it is beneficial to learn Hindustani as it gives better breath control and improves expression.
Rafi was not only able to glide over a song, the important thing was that he could express each word/sound when singing. It is one thing to hold your breath, start and reach a crescendo (high note), as like in “Shankara”, “Anbey (Yennai kaan villaye)” it is different ballgame if you have to do it from low notes or suddenly switch notes. With practice the former can be done, latter requires a special gift. Rafi had a natural ability to do the latter. In “Tum joh mil gaye ho” there is such a transition in the “karwaan mil gaya” part. I have never seen anyone do justice to most of his songs in my life time. In “parda hai parda” quawaali the similar part is “kar doon to, Akbar mera naam”. In fact most of his songs will have these specialty as it was his natural ability to sing freely in a wide range at the same time giving that extra expression.
Whereas SPB takes us to heavens with “Idu oru pon maali”,”Ilaya nila” “bisiladarenu”(kannada), when he sings Rafi’s song it lacks the punch or expression, though it has the bass. But at least most agree that SPB does some justice to original, whereas most others murder the original.
One trivial point I would like to add is that singing in Hindi is harder. There are more “JHA”,”CHA”,”HA”,”THA”, “KHA”,”JA”,”FA”. These take away the breath faster. The more expressive you are the more air you are using up. Just singing from Nabhi will not help, your throat also needs to do a lot, for singing in Hindi, Bengali etc. SPB makes you fall in love with his south Indian songs but same cannot be said about his Hindi songs. If you just glide through words having these sounds, you will never be expressive. Doing this as well as reaching high notes is not easy. Rafi had this gift and that’s why it is difficult to imagine anyone else in his shoes. Song “Chalkaaye jaam” has so much expression that it is unthinkable how anyone can sing it. When Rafi switches to a high note with “Mitwaa” in the song “Chaahunga mein tughey” you cannot replicate it with bass. Most others will sound as if they are shouting in such cases. That man’s throat had the ability to freely sing at such levels.
Versatility is not just the ability to sing in various styles, more important is how good you are singing in those styles. You have lot of Ghazal singers today but when Rafi sings a Ghazal you will sit up and take notice. You don’t have to be part of the Ghazal listeners crowd. This is one important aspect. Whatever style you sing you should be able to pull the common man to listen and not just a particular crowd. Pick “parda hai parda” or any qawalli and it will stand tall among other qawalli’s.
Variety is amazing :
songs of Guru Dutt’s Khagaz key phool or songs like abhi naa jao chod key, Aaja teri yaad aayi, Aaj kal mein dhal gaya, Aaj kal terey merey pyaar, Aasmaan sey aaya farishta, Dil ney pyaar kiya hai, Deewana mujh saa nahi, Din dhal jaaye, Duniya paagal hai, Jaane walon jara, Dil joh na kaha saka, Dil key jharokon mein, Dil kaa bhavar, Chalkey teri aakkhon sey, Kar chaley hum fida, khilona jaan kar tum, Woh jab yaad aay, Woh hain jara khafa, Vaadian mera daaman, Pathar key sanam, Chaand mera dil, Main zindagi kaa saath, Mainey poocha chaand sey, sun sun jaalima, Koi jab raah na paay, hum to chaley pardes, badan pey sitaarey, laal chadi maidaan, Tum jo mil gaye, O meri shaahey, Sau baar janam lengey, Tum mujhey yoon bhula, Tumney mujhey dekha, Terey merey sapney, Tumny pukaara hum chaley aay
Name a situation/mood and Rafi’s song will be there on the top.
Swami
Vitthal ji and Singh ji,
As both of you think that ghantasala cannot be compared with anyone, I don’t understand why you are wasting your time here. To show that ghantasala is much better than rafi? Do you think any “true” rafian will buy that? I am sure ghantasala has his own web site; why don’t you post your comments there? After all, we don’t go and post comments there. If you have problems with what Swaminathan Iyer has written, you should contact him.
Vitthal ji, by now I have heard many of ghantasala’s songs and I will tell you something: he wouldn’t have been widely acceptable in hindi films. That has got nothing to do with his singing prowess. It’s just that his voice and style wouldn’t suit stars like Dev Anand, Dilip Kumar, Dharmendra, Rajendra Kumar, Shammi Kapoor and others. Hindi films don’t have a Ramayana or a Mahabharata plot in every scene. And in romantic songs, you just can’t beat the likes of Rafi, Hemant and Kishore. This is my personal opinion and others may disagree.
I am sure that ghantasala’s voice sounds more romantic to you and a lot of other telugus. Peoples’ likes and dislikes are often dictated by the milieu they come from, which often translates to what is called parochial bias. That is understandable. And that is precisely why I’ve requested you several times not to prolong this debate.
Please remember that Rafi has universal appeal. he is heard in every state in India, even in all the states south of the Vindhyas. Yesudas and S. P. Balasubramaniam idolise him. I will never forget what Yesudas once said: “If you want to learn playback singing, all you need to do is to listen to Mohd Rafi’s songs.”
I am not going to participate in this debate anymore. But I wish the two of you the very best. You praise your lord and we praise ours.
hi anil,
you’ve got the right man 🙂
my favorite voices are rafi, yesudas, spb, and kk (before 1975).
thanks for posting that song from suhana safar. one of my favorites. i also like the fast track title song from the same film. rafi is energetic, injects a lot of fun, sounds very natural, and sings with heart. that’s his inimitable style.
Haldar sir,
Dhanyavaad sir, bhagwan ki daya se sab kuch thik thak hai aur rahega bhi. Aapko bhi meri shuhkamnayein, krupaya sweekar karein.
In my pure view, it is not correct to agree with some of your views and at the same time it is also correct to agree with some of your views. Let me clarify this point from two different views i.e as a rafi fan as well as a ghantasala fan, as I have heard both of them to a large extent.
As rafi fan :
I agree with you that hindi industry has a variety of talents and many singers even from other languages could try their luck their and many have become successful. But in hindi playback singing rafi sure, had a versatile edge over others and that is the reason rafi ji is widely appreciated. Next, yes, the national language factor certainly has important parameters. Hindi being such, definitely gives a scope for the benchmark factor by virtue of its inherent national quality and the recognition it enjoys among a wide range of people as compared to other regional languages, however greater they may be (for instance telugu language itself). Naturally, rafi being the king of bollywood playback singing, by virtue of his status, clearly becomes a benchmark factor for other singers, including singers of regional languages. But surely, if you go by the artistic talents, this nationality and benchmark popularity factor has strictly no relevance on which comparisons can be made and conclusions drawn.
As a Ghantasala fan : The telugu industry is known for its rich contribution to film essence. The Mythological and the Janapada genres, in my view, are the greatest in telugu field as compared to any other language films in India. The telugu industry is like a chakravyuha in the Mahabharata, i.e. only talents who are really exceptional can alone achieve recognition there. Ghantasala was such talent that he achieved such exemplary heights. Even with crores of people available in telugu, the technicality of the industry is as such, that it is not at all easy to even attempt to achieve success in such industry. So, it can be inferred that hindi industry was so easy to accomodate many people and many people could try their and achieve success but leader can be only one like rafi. Whereas in telugu industry, even trying to attempt/achieve success is difficult, and in such industry to grow to such greater heights as achieved by ghantasala is a major factor to reckon with and it is such factor that puts ghantasala makes class apart as a playback singer in this industry. Unless, one is well conversant with this industry, proper conclusions cannot be made with regard to its qualities and even contributions of singers. Haldar ji, sure if there are for instance 20 genres in playback singing, I can vouchsafe correctly, that in at least 17 to 18 genres ghantasala has a clear cut edge than other singers, including rafi, (in telugu rafi’s songs are no shakes at all )
The padyam genres, hari katha genres, janapada genres, sanskrit slokas genres are a typical difficult genres that even trained musicians with extraordinary talent fail here. But ghantasala has created such wonders in these areas, that no other singer can even come close, sure haldar ji. Musicians hold that whoever is capable of rendering such genres, is capable of rendering any genre in music. That is why, ghantasala fans rate him above every other singer. And sure, in these genres, I am sure, even rafi is going to fail. Ghantasala was so steeped in music in these genres, that he did not consider trying for singing in hindi at all, and there was no necessity for him to try at all because the industry has given him scope to rise to such impeccable and incomparable heights. He was such a talent which ensured that there would not be any competition as long as he was there and that happened. Whereas many who had tried in hindi, surely might have failed in their respective industries or their industries sure, might not be so capable of giving recognition to them as singers to raise to recognisable heights.
Just imagine haldar sir, with such a majestic status for their icon, no ghantasala fan can ever tolerate any single word against him, which is generally done out of ignorance for this incomparable talent of andhra, and for whom even the great rafi had the highest regards. Even lata mangeshkar has highest regards for ghantasala, as she stated him incomparable. In my honest view, as a versatile musician, ghantasala stands incomparable and ahead of all others.
Haldar ji – 1996
All other singers are compared with rafi, sure, but I disagree on ghantasala being compared to rafi when there is absolutely no necessity for a incomparable legend like ghantasala to be compared with anybody. But why this happened ?
My 1971 post clearly explains in detail the reply to your question and post. I do not see any reason to repeat the facts again.
Btw, i have replied whatever you have asked, and I am waiting for your response and views for my post 1991 ? (Are you trying to conveniently or intelligently ignore the questions there in ?)
Vitthal ji,
Let us not get into the ghantasala-rafi comparison game. It will take us nowhere. As I’ve said before, I didn’t want to participate in this debate; I was provoked to. The two singers did not play in the same field and even though there are commonalities in music, when you are comparing singers from two different domains, there’s bound to be the apples vs. oranges factor.
I’ll ask you one question, though. Why is it that everyone compares his/her idol with rafi? If you consider the main male signers from the 40s onwards, you have saigal, rafi, mukesh, talat, manna, kishore, hemant, mahendra k, ghantasala, yesudas and spb. With this set, you can make 55 pairwise comparisons. But what are the predominant comparisons?
1. rafi-kishore
2. rafi-manna
3. rafi-ghantasala
4. rafi-yesudas
5. rafi-spb
6. yesudas-spb
7. yesudas-ghantasala
9. ghantasala-spb
I’ll have to admit that mukesh, talat and hemant fans have not bothered us at all. Of late, rafi-saigal has entered the fray, thanks to kishore fans. Part of the rafi-manna comparison is also instigated by this crowd. And Raju Bharatan has insulted the guru-shishya relationship by comparing mahendra k with rafi. This article was in such poor taste; it was written after mahendra kapoor had just passed away.
So out of 55 possible pairwise comparisons, around 10 are active and 6 of those include rafi (counting saigal-rafi). What does that tell you?
That rafi is the gold standard: every male singer, past or present, will always be benchmarked against him. That is not to say another singer won’t be better than him in some aspect or the other, but overall, he defines the gold standard for playback singing.
(1982) Priyaji , many thanks for your valuable tips. Though I admit I am new to this forum but not unaware of the gimmicks played by certain headstrong who do not want to admit that there are some people having the edge over talent on one another. I am concerned about P. Haldar sir comment about the great Ghantasala garu. If a person is unbiased let him listen the songs of both the singers and then decide. We are just layman we do not have any right to judge these great singers who spent all their lives in singing and entertaining the masses. We the fans should have atleast the courtesy to acknowledge the greatness of the legends. I am the great fan of Rafi Sahab though I acknowledge the greatness of Ghantasala Garu and immensely proud of them.
Are rock n roll songs are the litmus test for great singers? As evident from the comments of P. Hardar Sir, many have acknowledged that he is very knowledgeable person and senior member of this forum. I respect the senior members of this forum and expect from them to be atleast unbiased while commenting.
Thanks a lot Utthara ji, Vithalji, Murthy2010 ji for your insight and lovable posts. Keep on going.
H.A.K. Walijah
haldaar sab, thank you for your mail.
When it comes to classical songs in Hindi films, Rafi saab is one of the best. Everyone acknowledges that Mannada sings classical numbers superbly. But Rafi saab too is equally superb. Like you mentioned there is Madhuban mein radhika nache re and there is , kuhu kuhu bole koyaliya(this is just for info and not for comparison. The original was sung by Ghantasala). According to me, both were superb in this song. Rafi saab can sing any type of song effortlessly __ be it classical, romantic, sad, fun, qawwalis(he is the best), haunting, teasing, angry, frustration, philosophical..all genres and all moods.
regards
Utthara
Priyaji, hello.
thank you for your mail. it was very enlightening.
I agree with you totally that Rafi saab has this talent of pronouncing some words witha certain emphasis. That is what I love about his singing. he is matchless when it comes to his adas and andaz of singing.
Here are a few examples which illustrate how rafi saab is not merely technical in his singing but pours life into every word.
1. Mein nigahen tere chehre se…how well he says tauba tauba taubaaa tauba in the stanza. Each tauba is said in a different way.
2. Ehsaan tera hoga mujh par….mujhe tumse mohabbat hogayi hai..the way he says mohabbat….he conveys all the mohabbat in the world in the way he says that one word.
3. Yeh zulf agar khulke bikahrjaye to achcha…wow! in how many different ways he says achcha….
4. Huyi shaam unka khayal aagaya… the way he says sawal aagaya..where he goes high pitch only for sawal. he has used this technique in quite a few songs. Like in Manri tu kahe..when he sings jinka moh kare…moh goes slightly high. Similarly in Hum bekhudi mein tumko pukare…the way he sings chaleeeeeeeeeeegaye. This word goes thoda high pitch. Bas, I love to listen to the way he sings.
5. In kabhi na kabhi kahin na kahin…in the stanza he says kabse is maikhane mein…..so much nasha he puts into that one word maikhane.
I can go on and on about Rafi’s excellent singing .
And I can go on listening to Rafi forever.
cheers
Utthara
Contd… haldar ji, (to my previous lengthy post again), I am writing these posts sitting in my office, as I am really enjoying the musical discussion here.
Your post 1988 says :
“My blood pressure shot up after I found that he has placed Lata on a pedestal and Rafi a notch lower. Why don’t you folks unleash s. janaki and p. susheela against ivy? We’ll just love it.”
Sure, p suseela and s janaki are evergreens. P Suseela is no lesser to lata mangeshkar. P S voice is also melodious and attractive in many songs vis-a-vis lata mangheshkar, who too is great. Haldar ji, put some views as well on P suseela voice in the songs shared in the previous post.
My deep respects to all the music lovers here.
Singh ji,
Welcome, I fully appreciate your views. Mr. Swaminathan Iyer, has deliberately avoided ghantasala, as he knew that ghantasala alone was peerless like rafi. So too was literally confused between both these legends and thought it would be better to remove ghantasala and bring all other southern singers into the discussion as that was comfortable. .
Utthara ji,
Thanks for your great post(s). You are correct in each and every point, which I fully appreciate. You may kindly pay a visit to kishore forum as well, as recently, we had many discussions there about southern music and its legends. Regarding ghantasala forum, please go to www. ghantasala.info and by registering there, you can have discussions there.
Walijah sahab,
My deep respects and appreciations for your posts here. I fully accept and support you points as true.
Murthy 2010 ji,
Welcome, I fully endorse your views on the great ghantasala. They are perfectly correct and no dispute about this. In fact, the highest civilian award padmavibhushan was recommended for ghantasala by the state govt. That should be sufficient to speak about the recognition the govt. has given for him.
Priya sanyal ji,
Thanks a lot for your great post(s) and your clean conscience views. Very true, the language knowledge will be a great asset to appreciate “more” the great ghantasala similar to the great rafi. Thanks again.
Common Man,
Your views are well taken, Both are lovers of music, you stand at one corner and we are in another corner. Ultimately, we enjoy golden music of the golden era of the golden legends with golden voice.
Anil Cherian ji,
Your points are noted. I hope you can put up a better presentation on south indian music and its legends as you are aware of its technicalities and greatness. Your post 1965 has some valid points.
P Haldar ji,
My respects for your posts and thanks for the same.
I had already stated that I could catch the essence of your “clean conscience” for the concerned subject matter in your posts above. I am aware of the hindi music of 50’s and 60’s quite well, and sure, there is no doubt about rafi’s superiority and peerlessness in any form in the hindi playback singing. Any individual will surely feel pleasant whenever he hears those rafi songs in that golden music of hindi film era.
Next, Sure same thing applies to ghantasala as well, the 50’and 60’s was as well as golden era of music in the south as well, especially telugu, for which there in no comparison. The rock n roll genre was only a typical western style composition and was sung by ghantasala in the late 60’s by which his health was not as perfect as was earlier. So certainly there is some change in his voice. Moreover, the video is also of poor quality. I had just given the link to remove the notion that ghantasala has not sung rock n roll genres. There are many other songs in rock n roll genres and western style compositions, but links are problem. Even many are sung in his own music direction, as he was a versatile music director as well. For sure, you cannot show any playback singer in any of the genres of playback singing (in telugu to be specific) who can be even nearer to ghantasala, and his songs, even sung in poor health conditions, exceed the expectations, they are so perfect and cannot be replicated and hard to sing by another singer. As utthara ji puts, the knowledge of language will be just a definite asset.
Since you have stated, you are not much aware of ghantasala, here is a brief article, which will give you insight about him. I hope you will appreciate every bit of it.
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mp/2003/02/11/stories/2003021100450100.htm
Just hear this song of ghantasala and suseela and give your views : only for sharing a musical gem.
How pleasant and energetic it is with great expressions (again lanugage knowledge will be great). But musically You will enjoy this to be sure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEyoLj5QUNg&feature=related
This melodious duet again between both, (a patriotic genre)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqA_zXNZvUc&feature=related
Haldar ji, sure you would appreciate the above numbers, Not for comparison, but for sharing.
Next, you had put one question and continue to discuss on various genres of playback singing, now kindly give opportunity to us to pose one question.
What is your take on classical / semi classical genres on ghantasala vs. rafi. In my view, ghantasala being a well trained classical expert, was surely far ahead than rafi in these genres and I have to support your typical conclusion “as correct” in your post 1987 2nd para. This view is held by carnatic as well as hindusthani musicians. It is not that rafi had not rendered these genres beautifully and to the best of his ability, but surely ghantasala was a “clear class apart with ease” in this genre among all known playback singers. It may be siva sankari or kuhu kuhu song etc. etc. but for sure, ghantasala rules here. Even the great rafi had admitted to that while making observation on Kuhu kuhu song.
The Rafi song’s one take OK view is great. The siva sankari song is recorded in one take only Haldar ji and for sure many tougher compositions as well have been recorded in only one take by ghantasala haldar ji. My contention is whatever great points are put up for rafi, similar points you can clearly find for ghantasala as well. That is why both were considered peerless and equallly great.
Anyhow, thanks and nice for the musical discussions.
Lastly, I am myself a rafi fan being a extreme lover of his many songs. He is peerless like ghantasala. Rafi’s and kishore kumar’s popularity is definitely more by virtue of their association with the national language, as such they are generally known to many people other than regional singers.
With best musical regards,
Vitthal
Common_man,
Good points in post 1977. Let me add a little more. We have already debated this elsewhere (assuming you are the ‘man’ I think you are).
Rafisahab’s voice is great and right in its tone; also it is finely (a bit too finely for the comfort of many classical music fans) polished. That’s why that ‘pleasant’ feel. Then there is the harmonic effect, which Haldar sir explained some time back. Rafi sahab could also vary the heaviness and sweetness of the voice almost at will- Haldar sir and Sudipji have talked about this. Not many male voices can do it without sounding artificial. S.Janaki is another singer who’s mastered this.
Here he goes sweet on a sweet-faced Sashi (in the movie you mentioned)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksdU-KQyolY
Here is a more punchy (yet soft) voice for Dharam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxEFW-C_MtE
The right voice for Rajendra
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-78cpIDDCZE&feature=related
Bolder one for Bachchan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-PmtXVVf68
Friends,
Here’s the clip in which Pancham says, “one take, ok”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDYb_Rhd52o
post 1975:
singh saab,
main theek-thak hoon; aap kaise hain bataayie. You are right. I read this article after a long time and found that ghantasala’s name was not included. This Swaminathan Iyer is a dangerous guy. Do you think it could be Tamil-Telugu politics? My blood pressure shot up after I found that he has placed Lata on a pedestal and Rafi a notch lower. Why don’t you folks unleash s. janaki and p. susheela against ivy? We’ll just love it.
post 1977:
utthara ji,
my post was intended only for those who consider ghantasala to be better than rafi in every aspect/mood/style of singing. I have lost count of the times the siva shankari song has been posted to demonstrate ghantasala’s superiority over rafi. Here’s the typical conclusion:
“rafi is not in the same league as ghantasala. Forget the two sisters, rafi lags behind even manna in classical songs. You can consider rafi and kishore to be on par in classical songs.”
Such comments make me wonder who sang “madhuban mein radhika nache re”, “radhike tu ne bansari churayi” and “nache man mora magan dhikna dhiki dhiki”. Can’t be rafi, right?
Folks come here and cite a carnatic-style song in which, according to them, ghantasala was way better. All I asked was to request ghantasala fans to provide examples of his songs in rock ‘n roll style before pronouncing my judgment. Is that such a big offence?
I listened to the ghantasala’s song that vitthal ji posted with open ears and an open mind. And I gave my unbiased opinion. My opinion has got nothing to do with language — rock ‘n roll is neutral between hindi and telugu. You listen to it and you can figure out who is singing in the true andaaz and who isn’t. I never said that ghantasala cannot sing a rock ‘n roll number. But knowing his classical background, I very much doubted his ability to do full justice to this genre. That’s all.
In my humble opinion, Rafi is the King of Rock, Asha is the Queen and Kishore is the prince. Other than Kishore, there’s another singer who I think can do justice to such songs: it’s S. P. Balasubramaniam. Manna Dey has sung such songs but he is way behind. In a subsequent post, I’ll describe a situation when the King and the Prince collide in mid-air.
As you might be aware, the “jaan pehchan ho” song was included as the title track in an american film called “ghost world”. The westerners who heard it didn’t undertand the language but were totally overawed. If the world were a global village during rafi’s time as it is now, he would have had a much larger following in western audiences. Sub-standard songs get Oscars nowadays.
Anyway, I surfed the web and randomly sampled some comments on the “ghost world” track; they are all by americans. Here they are:
————
1. Great graphic novel, great movie, great soundtrack. The disk is mostly comprised of classics, all of which are brilliant tunes that you may remember for a very long time. Particular highlights include Skip James’ “Devil Got My Woman,” Pink Anderson & Simmie Dooley’s “C.C. & O. Blues” and Robert Wilkins’ “That’s No Way to Get Along.” Lionel Belasco as well as Vince Giordano and the Nighthawks both contribute many tracks that can be called nothing less than stellar. Also an odd but welcome inclusion is Mohammed Rafi’s ‘Jann Pehechaan Ho,” which is underhandedly one of the most memorable songs on this soundtrack. We also get the novelty tracks from the film (“Graduation Rap” and the hilarious “Pickin’ Cotton Blues”) as well as originals by Craig Ventresco and David Kitay that remind us that this is a film soundtrack, not a classics compilation. It’s an all encompassing soundtrack which we can greatly appreciate, and those familiar with the artists will enjoy their music while those who aren’t have a treasure trove of gems to discover.
2. Amazon.com
If You Like Blues…, December 15, 2003
By Daniel Lee
This review is from: Ghost World (Audio CD)
This is an excellent soundtrack if you like blues. I got it just for the Mohammed Rafi track used in that Indian dance routine. What’s nice about this soundtrack is that the music for the film was chosen specifically based on it’s merits. This is a rarity these days, with many movies incorporating music because of some record deal or the company trying to promote some up and coming band/singer.
3. The other day I was at a club where they played Mohammed Rafi’s “Jan Pehechaan Ho.” I went to ask the DJ the name of the song, but neither he, nor I, could find it on the LP. So I went into work today depressed at being unable to remember the name of the track or the movie in which it had played. Then I told my boss that I was looking for a song that was “indian, surfy and sort of a guitar swing.” Luckily he’s an inhuman music machine and was able to name the song, and the movie (Ghost World). Thanks, boss.
MP3: Mohammed Rafi – Jaan Pehechaan Ho
Kicking off with a drum beat reminiscent of a frenzied version of Benny Goodman’s “Sing Sing Sing (With a Swing),” “Jaan Pehechaan Ho” quickly jumps into a swinging surf beat with some of the best horns you’ll ever hear. It’s a powerful blast of music that commands your attention. And it’s interesting to note that the melody is so catchy that it doesn’t matter if it’s sung in a foreign language: it’ll get stuck in your head for days.
slight correction regarding rafi in haseena maan jayegi: i meant to refer to “voice modulation” and not diction. they are completely different things so i don’t want to stir confusion. rafi showed great voice modulation so that the two singing shashi kapoors in the same scene sound different.
i’m not a big fan of over sensitivity or inconsistent, unsustainable political correctedness. we don’t live in a perfect world where everyone is soapy happy and share the same exact thoughts, values, or inclinations. it is impractical to deny this. i make comparisons only in response to the ghantasala fans who try to point out how their idol is superior. o sure, i have no problem with differing conclusions. express whatever you like no worries. but i have the same right to point out areas where rafi reigns supreme. i don’t take offense from truth or reality even if it is not the most convenient or does not appear prim or is less than flattering. truth and reality stand above all and so i embrace them. and sadly, it just so happens that spirited comparisons can be fun, have us look at issues differently than we’d normally do, and often raise interesting points.
Never hell Utthara, its rather heaven to explore music layer by layer as being unbiased is sign of purity.Let me learn to assimilate this purity as if may be, I`m not biased but I
get little intolerant,always! sometimes we all,(including me) talk as if we r here to award Bhrata Ratna to the best voice and dealing with all useless technicality to define divinity of our fav singer forgetting that music is in itself a divine art!
I`m not saying this in our present context of Rafi vs Ghantashala initiated by most famous article of kishoreda`s fan`s website named,” » An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar”,
Consiquently, throughout the entire comments on this article “True voice” we r in state of cold war or some time hot.And most of time fans of kisore kumar feul the mindless talks but I would never miss to say that even this article is miss spirit to talk of Rafi sahab in true form as it has counted lack in other singers!
What a great name this article has,to define our master but can`t True voice of Rafi sahab be self evident in Truth of Rafi sahab`s singing.
let me say we, rafians, r not a bit biased to compare Rafi ji with anyone whatsoever. as we r quite content in singer Rafi and person Rafi— Singer Rafi says everyone is my Guru including a wandering saint or fakir, his elder brother and from ustads to even music directors,audience all and appreciate all singers… Person Rafi is so much devoted for music that he don`t even think his voice as his but of Ibadat(worship) or that of his beloved listeners… so, we follow him and can never think low of any one…
But as far, I could know ghantashala ji he is simply genious and I do pray for his soul and thank him millions time to gift us his immortal songs! But comparison is language of hatred,with such state we can never appreciate him as we do rafi sahab.
, let me talk from hindu mythology, Radha knew krishna lives in every grain of dust but when she come to compare she could never find anyone equal to krishna of vrindavan
,, Meera knew that even Ram and krishna both is same, but while comparing in her famous song,mere to girdhar gopal,she only say,the one who wear crowne of peacock is my husband and none else! So is ram Bhakta Hanuman, he knew that ram himself is vishnu but he knew nothing but Ram of Raghukula…such is the language of love,no one can understand but what we can understand is that it in itself is complete. And whose heart is complete ,such person can love all and can see best of all…
As far as mohd Rafi is concerned a singer,whose best part I love is the way he pronounce each and every word in a song as if he live it while singing,same word when repeated carry his divine expression and as a person ,he was such a simple down to the earth person, and
to whom every one can fall in love only one condition required, lets keep complex -jelous feelings away!
I would also say sorry if I sound like preaching but I just sharing what I feel…
Hi common_man,
I believe I have caught you again. Keep posting.
Speaking of ‘filmy’ voice, Ghantasalaji’s was very much one from the South Indian film music perspective. Here’s a few South Indian film songs of the ’60s (not sung by Ghantasalaji):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8mgrtqbfNw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_YIOD60rqc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEH4G1A8P8I
You should be able to pick the similarity in voice type (between Ghantasalaji and between they themselves).
With the advent of Yesu Das sir, the typically textured voice went out of vogue from the Malayalam film music. It lingered on longer in other South Indian languages since SPB himself has a voice (especially when he was young) which has several shades of this particular voice type.
When it comes to HFM, there were several ‘filmy’ voices. Saigal saab & co were the filmy voices of the ’40s and beyond, Talat saab’s was very much a filmy voice when we speak about the ’50s. The difference between Rafi sahab and most others is that Rafi sahab’s voice is a filmy voice forever. It hasn’t gone passe and I don’t believe it ever will.
(1973)H.A.K. Walijah ji, for ur reagrds and respect and love for goldenera music, on behalf of uttharaji,me and every Rafi lover/bhakta, I bow down to u with all affection and reverence to welcome you to mohd rafi dot com.
as u have started writing u r like a family member to us, so plz never ever get hurt by any comments written here, and out of humour, let me correct u with our true feelings…Sir, plz never call these singers ,the singers of Past…especially Rafi ji, for to us he is eternal.
Now, let me interfere in defence of post that u mentioned as 1968, P.haldar ji is very devoted Rafian and we all have great value for him and his words. What he told is not exactly what u r reading, actually same questions asked in different context is answered to different person with different way.
I`ve a daughter,5 year old she ask too much questions and sometimes of god as is if kali is stronger or durga, out of irritation,sometimes I say I don`t know any god!
As u r new ,u might not know that entry of Ghantashala ji in this site of Rafi sahab is always very awkward… There so many people who r biased of Rafi sahab`s excellence and they most of time either use manna ji name, or lata ji`s name or ghantashala`s name to create feud here. And we r provoked to react! one of the example I quoted above written by Raju Bhartan in filmfare for Mahindra kapoor with all low words for Rafi sahab. Let me assure as I can say 99% of Rafian do respect late M.kapoorji, but after reading that article any Rafian can get angry to react against Kapoorji as even headline is, Mahindara kapoor is one who kept rafi on his toe!…these r like Britshers divide and rule policy,
similarly, by last so many months on many website out of jealousy of Rafi sahab`s saintly nature and his genious singing, they consciously or sub cosnsciously keep on comparng Rafi sahab with so many singer….and same thing happened even here,
As I got feb up of reading praise of Ghantashala by the person whose only aim is to compare, I thanked uttharaji who understand both side very well, for not talking comparitive but rather tributing…and hence, I welcome you too!
Thank you!
Vithalji,
I thought Ghantasalaji did a fine job with that western tune especially considering his voice type and his musical background. But, like Haldar sir, I also don’t think he’s not in the Rafi league in this song. SPB is better equipped for this type, so is KJY.
Haldar sir,
Here are a few KJY gems from Malayalam for you (in case you haven’t heard them already)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEx6KxfB0XE
I don’t think I have to tell you what ‘raag’ this is composed in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Bfph4hTmnw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ajiKwpCIlw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qA1lqa5psE&feature=related
Dosts,
I don’t think Ghantasala needs certificate from any of us that he is brilliant. Nor does rafi saab needs one. It is unfair to compare one legend with the other. The other reasons being Hindi and Telugu are two distinct languages. Similarly, Hindustani and Carnatic are two distinct styles of classical music. While Hindi songs are based on Hindustani music, Telugu and other southern songs are largely based on Carnatic, though the songs have borrowed hindustani ragas. There are even some mishra or mixed ragas.
Haldar saab, I aprreciate your views. May i point out that while saying you don’t want a debate, you are doing just that by saying Ghantasala’s rock and roll is not as good as Rafi’s. Sir, I understand that you are not familiar with the language or the singer. Each one is entitled to his or her opinion. having said that, Haldar saab, i frequently read your posts and have high regard for you and your rich knowledge.
if i made these comments, it is because I want to make it clear that Ghantasala is one of the best like rafi is one of the best. I am a huge fan of both. For me, in Hindi songs, it is only rafi. When it comes to southern songs, it is Ghantasala. Not that I don’t like the songs of other singers. People can ask me who the hell am i to make things clear? Whether I am qualified? I have a big qualification __ of being an unbiased fan. For me, Rafi and Ghantasala are personification of music…are like two sides of the same coin.
Walijah saab, Vithalji, Singhji and murthyji, whatever you have said about Ghantasala is very true. Even when the producers knew that it was his last days, till they insisted that he sing for them. If any other singer did not shine during that period, it is not because Ghantasala suppressed them or played politics. In this respect, Ghantasala was like Rafi __ very humble, down-to-earth, generous. For him, sangeet was tapasya.
When it comes to Hindi songs, rafi saab has no peers. na bhutho na bhavishyati. This applies to Ghantasala when it comes to telugu songs .
I request friends not to compare two legends. What are we gaining by saying one is greater than the other? Shouldn’t we be enjoying and celebrating music together?
Sorry if you thought I was preaching. I wasn’t doing so.. It hurts to see legends being disparaged like this.
No offence to anyone.
Vithalji, if there is a Ghantasala forum, I would like to visit it.
With musical regards
Utthara
Dear Vitthal ji and Singh ji,
I appreciate your response. Even if you consider ghantasala to be greater than rafi, I have no problems. It’s only when folks start commenting that ghantasala is better than rafi in every aspect/style of singing, I start wondering if that is indeed true. Because I still haven’t found a singer in the world, let alone India, who is better than Rafi in every aspect. I honestly admitted my ignorance about Ghantasala at the outset and that is why I asked you to give me some examples of ghantasala’s rock ‘n roll numbers. Among the south indian singers, yesudas remains my favourite and I’ve commented earlier that he was singularly unlucky not to make it big in hindi films.
Vitthal ji, thanks for posting the rock ‘n roll song by ghantasala. This is my honest opinion: no patch on rafi. I’ll tell you something else: he won’t have a chance against kishore in this genre. You may not agree with me but you cannot change my opinion.
Again, I want to remind my friends that I didn’t want to participate in this debate. But a lot of claims have made with respect to the ghantasala vs. rafi topic and I cannot sit idle until those tall claims are substantiated by evidence.
So what you are going to see is a series of posts from me on different genres of playback singing.
hi vitthal,
“This is where again the problem starts. How can you conclude that ghantasala has not sung rock and roll numbers.”
mr haldar never concluded that ghantasala has not sung rock n roll numbers. the problem starts when i or you or anyone jumps to conclusions or impatiently misinterprets. here’s what he wrote:
“Can you entertain us with some of ghantasala’s rock ‘n roll numbers? Let’s swing, man.”
you shared that one rock n roll number. i look forward to more rock and roll numbers. until i hear them i don’t have much to say.
hi murthy2010,
“while listening to rafi songs, i have observed that his voice was almost the same for all hindi heroes he sang for. not much versatility he had, to reflect the voice of the hero he sang for.”
sudip pointed out that rafi was very good at capturing an actor’s persona. imo, this is the most important feature to look for when matching a playback singer and an actor. rafi was very versatile in this regard. i honestly don’t give much importance to a singer like rafi to take his sweet, divine voice and try to mould it into a different, less pleasant voice that resembles the actor. having said this, it is nice to have both.
truth is, it is hard to predict how an actor will sound when he is singing. sudesh bhonsle sounds closer to what you’d think amitabh bachchan sounds like when he’s singing than when amitabh bachchan is actually singing! rafi’s voice did not perfectly resemble dharmendra’s speaking voice or shammi kapoor’s speak voice but with regards to the two factors (1) rafi captured and contributed to the on screen persona or dharmendra & shammi kapoor (2) rafi’s voice was just right…not too heavy or too light…so often his voice was not clearly a mismatch but credible. when you combine the perfect grasp of persona with a moderate voice that can credibly match the actors…you get what truly happened which is rafi balanced his melodious voice for several dozen actors with amazing versatility and success. the exceptions were rafi’s voice was not a great match was with actors who had very deep voices amitabh, sanjeev kumar, and pran. nevertheless, he still captured the most important criteria which was persona and that’s why rafi has song great & successful songs for amitabh & sanjeev kumar.
“khush rahe tu sada” perfectly captures the screen, sanjeev kumar’s acting, and the character’s persona. it is a joy to listen to *and* watch on sanjeev kumar. as sudip pointed out, “atthara baras ki” on amitabh from suhaag is a song where rafi’s voice does not match amitabh’s deep barritone but he perfectly captures the persona. you can object to the second criteria but all in all, it is joy to listen to and watch that song on amitabh in the scene. rafi add’s to amitabh’s persona with that robust voice of his.
i think it was a great asset for rafi to have a voice that wasn’t too light or too heavy but just right. it gave him more versatility than it limited him. his voice gelled very well with a lot of actors save for a few exceptions as i mentioned above. this is not a signficant point but i did want to address it for the heck of it. like i said, i don’t want a singer with a voice as sweet as rafi’s to reduce his voice so it sounds like an actor’s less pleasant voice. the whole point of the playback singer is to credibly add to the actor’s persona and rafi does that well.
i will take your word on ghantasala’s diction and modulation for other actors. truth be told, i’ve heard and observed many valid points regarding rafi’s diction for actors. sudip pointed out a video from haseena man jaayegi where rafi uses different diction for two shashi kapoors on the same scene! the difference is clear and amazing! there’s one objection i have to ghantasala’s voice on his actors but will not state it because it really is a pleasure to hear different opinions and i don’t want to upset anyone. moreover, i don’t want to generalize.
dear fans,
in this post i would like to comment on the comments made by mr haldar on ghantasala in his posts 1969 and 1970. first of all, he admitted his ignorance of ghantasala and therefore i advise him to confine his comments to rafi only and not focus on ghantasala. certainly he is not a better person to judge between these two legends. next, he commented that the comparison of ghantasala to rafi doesnot make any sense because the former didnot sing in hindi. mr haldar should understand that we are comparing the singers and not their languages. okay. for argument sake, both ghantasala and rafi sang telugu songs. now compare them in telugu. where does rafi stand before ghantasala in telugu songs? no where.will mr haldar accept this? i doubt very much. but the fact is, mr haldar should understand that the comparison of singing talent of rafi and ghantasala should be based NOT on languages BUT on the characteristics of their voices like pronunciation, clarity, voice pitch and diction, expression, melody, solidity of voice, depth of voice, range of voice, ability to sing solidly without break effortlessly and effectively in all pitches especially in high and higher pitches, etc.,etc.etc. if a jury comprising both carnatic and hindustani musicians opts to judge on these lines, certainly they score ghantasala over rafi. this is an irrefutable bitter fact for rafi fans.
P Haldar sir,
How are you ? After a very long time in this true voice col.
In my view, rafi-ghantasala debate is valid and permissible in this True Voice col. because, this thread particularly discusses about rafi vs. various other south indian singers. So, perfectly every south indian fan has a right to respond and post his decent views in this thread.
Haldar sir, Ghantasala was a brilliant singer part excellence, like rafi, and sure, as I have heard a plenty of him, he certainly ranks above other playback singers, again like rafi.
You will note that in the above article, the main author, Swaminathan Iyer, has mentioned all south indian singers, with the s o l e e x c e p t i o n of the great ghantasala, – this itself proves that the author knew very well that ghantasala and rafi were altogether similar and in different league than others.
Otherwise, the author when he has mentioned all southern singers, but did not mention ghantasala who was a major force in southern playback singing and who ruled the world of playback singing like a colossus for 3 decades without any competition due to his incomparable skills(no southern singer or any other playback singer has such record in my view), – the reason could only be that the author very well knew that ghantasala was another singer like rafi. Otherwise how could the author avoid such a major singer of the south in the above article. It is clear the author knew about the greatness of ghantasala and thus avoided his name in the article above.
dear fans,
to the knowledge and information of rafi fans who donot know much about ghantasala or telugu/sanskrit languages, i want to add few more lines in this post about the legendary incomparable ghantasala. he was the only film singer in our country who introduced the technique of changing the voice pitc h and diction to suit the voice of heroes like anr and ntr(the stalwarts of telugu films) to give life to the roles played by them in several telugu films, whether social, historical, mythological or otherwise. he was so versatile in this technique that the fans of anr and ntr used to visualise the faces of their respective heroes just by listening to the songs sung by ghantasala for their heroes. he could tone and vary the pace of his voice pitch and diction differently for anr and ntr. and he could do that so effortlessly with lot of ease and perfection. while listening to rafi songs, i have observed that his voice was almost the same for all hindi heroes he sang for. not much versatility he had, to reflect the voice of the hero he sang for. though the languages help the singers to sing and reflect the meaning and beauty of those languages, it is the characteristics of the voice they have which make them great or legendary or otherwise. therefore, the singing talent comparison should be based not on language they sing but on the qualities of their voices. please understand that i am not trying to show rafi in poor light because i am a fan of both the legends. regards.
First of all my respect & regards to Uttaraji and Priya ji for your in-depth posts about Ghantasala garu.
I would like to introduce myself to this forum, since I am the great music lover and madly in love with singers of past. My respect towards Rafi Sahab, Kishore da, Manna da, Mukesh ji and many more. As I grown up among telugu speaking people and I know the songs of Ghantasala garu and at the same time my mother tongue is urdu so I well aware of the songs of Rafi Sahab. In this way I know both the singers and listening both since my childhood. Even now I listen to the great singers in my privacy. I am a frequent visitor to Rafi Forum since many years but I did not lift my pen as I always reading the posts and write up and enjoying it.
To P. Halder saab – Reply your post : 1968
With all my due respect I try to reply to your comments made about Ghantasala garu. Sir you may not have heard about Ghantasala garu, , which shows your ignorance about him. Music is universal, having no barriers and bourndaries. Language is not litmus test for a singer. If you see today, the Hindi singers are running towards South specially towards Telugu & Tamil films, you may count, Udit Narayan ji, Sonu Nigam ji, Sahdana Sargam ji, Sukwinderji All the singers have great songs in hindi films, what you call for this. You alone do not know about Ghantasala garu, it does not mean that he is anonymous, but what about those people who know both the singers and both the languages. You can write such comments and degrade the sanctity of the music. As such Hindi music industry is open nationally, likewise the Dravidian languages are also in the same manner open nationally, any Indian citizen may come, sing and prove his/her r talents. You also raise the point that Ghantasala garu was handicapped because of language problem, which surely not at all true. He was busy with the assignments and did not have much time to focus on Hindi songs, (he stop singing in tamil language due to this constraint) and at the same time he need not prove his talents nationally as a recognized singer. He was also a recipient of Padma Shri, the Govt. of India recognized him and respected him. The other aspect of the Bengali singers flocking to hindi film industry due to over ambitiousness, avarice of money and fame. As Ghantasala garu was a simple soul not having much inclination towards money and fame nationally.
Rafi Sahab was such a good soul that he never degrade nor refuse to sing in any language, if the producers of telugu films offered him to sing how could he deny that. He sang almost all regional languages, then why the grudge towards telugu? If Ghantasala garu did not sing even a single song in hind film, did it make his name and respect less than Rafi Sahab? No, absolutely not. Being ignorant and airing your comments so boldly, I appreciate you for that.
With heartfelt regards
H.A.K. Walijah
Haldar ji – contd… to my previous (lengthy post)
Here is a link to typical rock and roll genre composition by ghantasala and suseela – duet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-4E67Apfe8&feature=related
This is not for comparison pl. Only to convey and re-affirm utthara ji’s statements as said earlier – every mood and every genre and remove the notion that rock and rolls genres of ghantasala are not found. There are many more – but links are problem.
P Haldar ji – 1968 –
My respects to your views in your post.
Could get at some aspects of your post and I appreciate your clean conscience points, but in my view that does not put at rest the crux of the discussion. There is no necessity to debate between rafi and ghantasala, as one was brilliiant in hindi and the other was brilliant in the south. Both are of course two different corners. Why this actually happened, Let us go into the roots, since long back the point put forth by many rafi fans (leaving few balanced gentleman rafi fans) was that in the indian music industry, there is no brilliant singer as rafi. This was the problem and it cannot be accepted. The Indian music industry does not start with rafi and end with rafi (if somebody thinks so, it is purely a ignorant approach) There are many great artists in Indian music, (all may not be popular, and mainly yester year greats popularity is enveloped in time, they were surely popular when they were there) and due to the aforesaid view from indian music, that has been the reason for entry of ghantasala and of course, you know what appreciations ghantasala has received even from other language music lovers, whenever he has been introduced in any forum. Had it been a discussion that rafi is greatest in hindi – yes the issue is totally different, even I do not see the reason for any comparison. But when the point comes to indian music, surely the debate is worth mentioning and I think, many musicians, both hindusthani and carnatic are better judges to make comments on “such” legends and their contributions, certainly better than you as well as me. And you are also aware of the outcome of the views of such musicians. And you will accept that, it is but natural, to expect reactions from ghantasala fans only when such terms are used – no singer has ….., the greatest in indian music….. etc. because ghantasala too was such a divine singer, who could move the hearts of the people and is credited with a contribution to music, which has no peers and comparison. It is held that music was never in such perfect harmony and melody, as was in era of ghantasala. In Hindi, the same view is held by rafi fans as well.
If there are no such issues (no singer ….etc. ) , I do not think any ghantasala fan has ever interfered.
Your comment by an artist that sing like rafi and people will run after you. Same proverb was there in the south in 50’s, – try to sing like ghantasala and people will run after you.
Next, your point of trying luck in bombay is like commenting or asking chattrapati sivaji to go and try to become the mughal emperor – the intention is mughal emperor may be badshah, but what about sivaji – you very well know, he was badshah of the south. Was there any necessity for sivaji (due to this status) to try for the same. In fact, it was the mughal emperor, despite his status, wanted to poke his hand into the territory of sivaji. But you know, what is sivaji’s greatness, the mughal emperor could not even put his foot there. (no offence meant to any music lover’s views and any legend and this is only to put a instance/example for the view on trying luck in bombay and nothing else please).
Post 1969
This is where again the problem starts. How can you conclude that ghantasala has not sung rock and roll numbers. Kindly remember Utthara ji’s comment – ghantasala’s contribution is in every mood and every genre and this is absolutely true. To be sure, Rafi might not have attempted some specialised genres, for which ghantasala is widely appreciated. However, there is no end for this debate. That is why, I feel and I kindly request you to note that both were exemplary singers, and I am sure, with your hindi knowledge about rafi, if you had simliar knowledge about telugu, you would have been the first person to argue about ghantasala similar to rafi, when it comes to contribution to Indian music, and not hindi music. Both were brilliant legends. I have heard many telugus saying – rafi as the ghantasala of bollywood (as ghantasala is elder to rafi) and similarly, many saying ghantasala as the rafi of the south (as hindi is widely recognised). I hope you get it haldar ji and you will always kindly remember that ghantasala is the father of southern playback singing and the southern music industry has its roots to the greatest ever exponent of the southern film music in its foundational form, in a way that his contribution has no peers and comparison.
Btw, There are rock and rolls numbers rendered by ghantasala ( in his own music direction as well) – I am not able to get the links in you tube. If I get access to that I will try to upload the same.
Regards,
Vitthal
Koto ajana re! There is so much to learn. Some ghantasala fans have commented that he was better than rafi in every aspect of singing.
Well, in honour of common_man’s post 1957, why don’t we start with a 1957 song, “laal laal gaal jaan pe hai lagoo” from Mr. X, which pioneered rock ‘n roll music in hindi film songs.
Here’s a small sample of rafi’s other rock ‘n roll songs:
aaja aaja main hoon pyaar tera (teesri manzil)
aaj kal tere mere pyar ke charche har zaban par (brahmachari)
jaan pehchan ho (gumnam):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHA_S48KRrI
Teesri Manzil rocked the nation in the mid 60s and this is what Chhote Nawab had to say about the recording of one of the famous songs from that film:
“One take, ok”. Just one take and he sings like Elvis.
This post is intended only for ghantasala fans who consider him to have an edge over rafi in every style of singing. Can you entertain us with some of ghantasala’s rock ‘n roll numbers? Let’s swing, man.
Dear friends,
I didn’t want to be drawn into the ghantasala-rafi debate because I don’t know much about ghantasala. To tell you the truth, I hadn’t even heard of him till the 1990s. You can call me ignorant if you want to, but I can vouch for the fact that he hardly has any name recognition in the north, east or west. Which is not to say that he is not a great singer. But he did not sing in hindi films and so comparing him with rafi does not make much sense.
Common_man in post 1957 talks common sense:
“the hindi film industry was open nationally and not regionally and therefore encompassed a larger pool of talent. the telegu industry for all of its unique, distinguished characteristics, was not as rich or competitive as the hindi film industry.”
You can say that ghantasala was handicapped because of the language problem but if so many bengalis with their rosogolla accents made it big in hindi film music, I don’t see why ghantasala couldn’t go to bombay and try his luck. keep in mind that rafi’s native language was punjabi and he had to face an uphill battle against the chost urdu-speaking talat, especially in ghazals.
In this context, I would also like to quote what S. D. Burman once told Nirmalendu Chowdhury, the famous folk singer from Bengal, when he had approached Dada for a song:
“Have you heard of Rafi? Sing like Rafi and people will run after you.”
The other think folks should remember before commenting is that the hindi-telugu relationship is not a symmetric one. If rafi hadn’t sung a single telugu song, or for that matter a single bengali song, I and other rafians wouldn’t have cared a hoot. He sang those regional songs because producers and music directors came knocking on his door. In contrast, most regional singers would have considered a rare honour to sing in hindi films.
I know that a lot of my telugu friends on this forum would not like my comments, but as you are well aware, when it comes to hindi film music, I don’t have a single parochial bone in my body. And, therefore, I am not afraid to air my comments.
Utharaji, you’ll find the song linked to my post# 1947. If you ca’t play the link, I’ll provide another one.
Anilji, which song are you referring to? Please let me know. Will definitely listen to it.
regards
Uttharai
Anil Cherian saab,
tauba, tauba. i wasn’t criticising you. Was just telling those friends who haven’t heard of Ghantasala about his brilliance as a singer. I have high regard for you.
Priyaji, thank you for your appreciation. I read almost all your mails. I am amazed by your passion and fairplay. Hats off to you.
Walijah saab,
whatever you have written about Ghantasala is absolutely true.
with melodious regards
Utthara
Utharaji,
I wasn’t trying to prove that Rafi sahab is superior, rather I was trying to say he was different (from Ghantasalaji). Even with my modest classical music base, I can make out that the singer from the south has an edge over Rafi sahab (and for that matter any other Indian play back singer save Yesu Das sir and Manna da) in several areas of singing. When I said he sang like a “Bhagvatar”, it wasn’t meant to project him as a singer with limited repertoire. I was speaking about his basic singing style and his voice texture.
The only point (not raised by you) I wanted to contest was that “Rafi sahab is better accepted because he sang in Hindi”. I would rather give the credit to Rafi sahab’s voice (great voice without being ‘ustadish’) and the style (not strictly classical but without violating the ‘rules’). He appeals to all; the language is not the only (or even the biggest) factor.
Hope I made myself clear. I look forward to your views on the song/ singing in the link I provided in my previous post.
Vithalji many thanks for your two posts at 1959 and 1960 and I very much appreciate all that you have written. i also concur with most of your views and hence there are no issues on any point whatsoever with us. I also thank you about the tidbits on how rafi sahab came to singing songs in telugu and I too have heard about this earlier. i am informed that rafi sahab indeed met ghantasala first before he recorded his songs in telugu to seek his blessings and tips on singing songs in a language completely alien to him. both rafi sahab and ghantasala had immense regard for one another and it is these virtues that make legends out of mortal human beings. perhaps one of these days we can meet if you are in hyderabad, even if you cannot join rafi foundation, hyderabad chapter. thanks once again.
1959 vitthal: fair enough, that’s not the impression i got from the other recent posts but hey…maybe i erred. i have no doubt that ghantasala was as unique and great to telegu as rafi was to hindi. good day!
Further to my post 1959: a brief introduction to those who does not know the Great Ghantasala –
Ghantasala was a singer par excellence and composer of Telugu films. As a freedom fighter he was jailed for two years in Alipore. He served as the “Aasthana Gayaaka” (court musician) for TTD. He was also a recipient of the Padma Shri. The famous renderings of Ghantasala include Bhagwatgita, partriotic songs, Padayalu (unique genre of Telugu – singing the versus in dramatic style), film songs, folk songs etc. He introduced the technique of changing the voice pitch and diction to suit the actor singing the songs on the screen. People were so enamoured by this that they started imagining the hero of the movie just by listening to him sin over the radio. Such was his brilliance.
Ghantasala, was ofcourse the great playback singer in Telugu ruled more than twenty years having no peers. His vocals were suited the yesteryears Heroes, as such there was no competition in Telugu industry. Whereas in hfm, many talanted singers were around and Rafi Sahab was outshined among them and standout as the only singer whom the next generations followed. Whereas in Telugu after the death of Ghantasala, the smiliar voice singer Ramakrisha shine for little then the reign was handover to the all great S.P. Balasubramaniam, the versatile singer like Rafi Sahab. Ghantasal in no way an inferior singer compare to Rafi Sahab. He was a trained singer like Rafi Sahab. Both were like giants in Indian music industry. The were the examples for the next generations to follow their footsteps. Great singers will always remain remembered for generations. Ghantasala and Rafi Sahab were such singers. Even now the old generation cherish the sweet memories of the legends like Ghantasala and Rafi Sahab.
contd to my previous post…
Utthara ji and A S Murthy garu,
some interesting points on rafi ji and telugu music as well.
I was given to understand that there was dispute between NTR and ghantasala and NTR searched for a singer who could really attract and mesmerise people, like ghantasala did with his songs, and he was advised that perhaps only mohd rafi alone could do that and with this intention NTR had invited rafi for singing telugu songs. Rafi ji, as the telugu was a foreign language, was understood to have met ghantasala for learning tips of singing telugu songs. This incident is recalled by music lovers which proves the friendship factor between two evergreen legends. This happened only for the films Bhale tammudu in 1969 and talla pellama, subsequent to which NTR had again switched over to ghantasala and rafi’s remaining telugu songs were only after the demise of ghantasala.
But, my concern remains, it would have been great if rafi had rendered some original telugu compositions, which I know are really difficult to execute, under some of the greatest telugu music directors. All of rafi telugu songs are possibly his hindi songs and tunes, rather remakes of hindi songs only, which rafi ji had already rendered in hindi, as Utthara ji, states here. It is pride to note that rafi ji had rendered telugu songs.
One of the telugu songs of Rafi, perhaps Uttara ji could enlighten me on this, goes like this — allah, hey bhagawan, this song is a devotional song on Lord Venkateswara and Allah, a song which I like of rafi ji in telugu. I am unable to recall from which film this song is, and I have heard it only once in telugu long back. Perhaps, A S Murthy Garu and Utthara ji, could clarify me on this.
1952 – A S Murthy garu,
Thanks for your post.
I am employed in a reputed corporate group in a very senior position and I may not do real justice, if I join, Rafi foundation at Hyderabad. That is the main reason, I could not join rafi foundation at Hyderabad. BTW, thanks a lot for your advise and kind views, which I immensely respect. Since, I am a fine lover of music, I just drop in at times, to pen few views of mine, only to share music.
I hope you might have seen my post 1951 (last line) and that will show my regard for rafi – the evergreen “peerless” singer of hindi film world for 50’s and 60’s . BTW, you might have observed from many of my comments, whenever I talk of hindi film songs, even in other forums, I maintain rafi ji is my favourite singer in hindi songs. I have ever maintained that the 50’s and 60’s contribution is a golden era of hindi film music for which there cannot be any comparison.
Hope your observations vis-a-vis the other gentleman’s observations on hindi singers diction stands clarified with my above para. Regarding the judgement factor of telugu people, I feel the view might be linked to edge of telugu people’s knowledge of both languages as compared to the single sided knowledge of hindi people and not with a intention to show others in a poor light. (this is my view) I mean to say that the perspective adopted by people having knowledge of both languages will be certainly different from the perspective of people having knowledge of single language. Utthara ji stands best example for that as Utthara ji had put the correct points, which you too had agreed to.
Common Man – 1958 – I request you kindly to know things first in a proper perspective, otherwise proper conclusions cannot be reached. You may kindly refer to my numerous posts in kishore forum currently and also comments of Utthara ji (recent posts). I vehemently disagree with your views on your last 2 lines in post 1957 & 1958 and any musician also will so, because it is written without knowing proper realities and with incomplete knowledge of telugu industry and its rich roots of filmy music. Kindly do not take offence.
BTW , I am a rafi fan, and I have been contributing to this website for so many years. On absolute similar terms, as telugu man, I know ghantasala too equally well, and I fully concur to Utthara ji’s post here, where she says both rafi and ghantasala are equally great, again equally great and absolutely no doubt on this.
Anil Cherian – Hope you needs to have a fresh relook at your post, which I completely disagree from the views of “filmy music”. Do you think your views are valid for a “monarch of filmy playback singing”.
Thanks & regards,
vitthal
to clarify, ghantasala has a filmy voice too and i have seen songs where he has captured the persona of a hero. so i won’t say that he is suited to sing only classical songs (he proved otherwise during his long, successful career). but his voice is just not *as* filmy as rafi’s. that’s my conclusion from listening to and observing the qualitative vocal textures of both singers. when i listen to 5 straight songs of ghantasala (by searching “ghantasala fun songs” on youtube) i say his voice is decent (which it is on absolute scale). but when i switch over to a rafi songs before 1972, only then do i realize a great, comparative difference in vocal texture.
hi vitthal: you just can’t tolerate a viewpoint different than yours so you brush it aside as “lack of knowledge” or going against “facts”. ghantasala for all his skills did not have a voice as filmy as rafi’s which would be a big disadvantage in hfm. the hindi film industry was open nationally and not regionally and therefore encompassed a larger pool of talent. the telegu industry for all of its unique, distinguished characteristics, was not as rich or competitive as the hindi film industry.
***“Nafrat se tum jinhe dekhte ho, tum marte ho jinko thokar, kya unpe guzarti hai, dekho ek baar kabhi ghayal hokad…”
I,personally, don`t find any point of debate here! I really admire every of utthara`s article or comments.but especially, Post 1946 and 1951 is a demonstration of modesty while being talking of a legend(Ghantashalaji) with all reverence.
Being a devoted Rafian, let me confess rafains point of view(still it would be truly my
personal view)…What is rafi saab to me? I can`t answer but I simply say he is like endless sky to me. Now I see at the sky and what I see is countless stars there…I can`t understand why critics only think there can only one star in the sky. But what makes difference is that to whom we r closest among all the stars. And in our case we r closest to Rafi saab, so he is like sun to us and we can`t compare him with other stars as sun is our life now….but if someone is closer to other star and r far away from our sun, rafi saab…we can`t call them devoid of light as every stars is embodiment of light in itself…. But some stars gives life and other burns but in both case light is omnipresent!
Though I`m born in a family whose soul is music, still, i didn`t know much about Ghantashalaji`s singing or songs But its very unfortunate for anyone to get acquainted with
legend like Ghantashala in such a manner like me and many others too.
.In most of the hindi cinema page,where rafi saab name is mentioned and debates going on, I sometimes read its shehgal..kishore da,
manna ji,sometimes, Latji or asha ji, sometimes its Ghantashalaji or Ahmad Rushdi or Nusrat fateh ali khan or Ghulam ali etc or even todays sonu nigham of kumar sanu r not only compared but called better than rafi saab.I just amaze in my own heart thinking is music a language of love or hatred.But its a matter of marvel that just one person compared with so many people.
Recently on this site,we talked on melody of Mubarak beghum but did we talked low of lataji for singing or did we say mubarak beghum is better with comparision….Never!
Why can`t such a legendary personality have their own identity. Why can`t Ghatashala ji be one honourable identity even if rafi saab name not used ….
This is really a hurting as they use Great Ghantashala`s name only to show rafi saab inferior and subconsciously a hidden conflict is started in the mind of person who don`t know these legends well. Similarly, I saw a link on this site by someone about Mahindra Kapoor ji.The writer wrote article on Kapoor ji on his death.the writer wanted to praise kapoorji by giving title of his article as the man who kept Rafi on his feet” http://www.rediff.com/messageboard/comments/movies2008oct01kapoor/1
And all the rubbish is written there for rafi saab against mahindra kapoor, ignoring the fact both were Guru sishya or like a affectionate Father son.
Similarly, such mindless conflict or comparison with rafi saab and Ghantashalaji is never appreciation but to raise conflict.
My knowledge of other singer is negligible, so I can`t talk about other, but I can say, surly Ghanatshala ji is great but are not Kishore da really great? Surly kishore da was genious in so many ways. lataji was too. But what about Bishmillah khan, Pandit jasraj and Bhimsen joshi and what about Bade ghulam ali khan? Lets move abroad, now what do we think of Michael Jackson, beetles or Presley? The count goes endless. There r so many greats, the world is filled with stars but does it make Rafi sahab inferior, no way!
Just three points,as my post has already being so lengthy,for rafi sahab that make rafi sahab incomparable in universal context.
1)
There r so many person who sing and r really good person but rafi sahab was like a lotus in mud filled pond…Lotus is always unattached with dirt and retains all purity ,and with rafi sahab its the dirt of materialism or lust of glamour films industry in whom he lived a saintly life…with no ego and such a humble heart and down to the earth person with unmatchable faith in God!
2)
He could sing every kind of song, recently I listened his Portuguese song and also his suku suku in surinam that he song in front of Royal family, yet he sang with so ” Masti”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-6j6UYk3jM&feature=related
and also remember
his Bhajan naat sharif etc, thats still most famous of so many bhajans released every day…
and nonfilmy ghzals and also that of films….his songs of 40s, 50s, 60s ,70s, and also rocks like kya hua tera wada,puccho na yaar,jan pehchan ho,
,or his dilber janiye, or his romantic song,duets,and philosophical songs,sentimentals,
his patriotic songs,qawalis etc, and other regionals like nain lad jayehen or nazruls bengali`s songs….
. One person with so many variety with such a perfection makes his voice that of God…
3)The way he used to work.So hard thats impossible for so many people. For singing just a song he used to do riyaz for so many days.His life was singing but he couldnot bear ego for it and was extraordinarily dedicated for singing as if he was just a new comer and he used to respect all call it new music director or any ordinary person.Even with ordinary song he used to work hardest.He considered ever music directors his guru and lived every moment of his life also in practical way as if he has just started learning music…he never said that he is Mohd Rafi the singer but told that its God whose blessings is this not he,so he can`t rest for his voice is not his but to one who love this voice………..Such, a fighter and heroic attitude makes him peerless
Now one song of rafi saab, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzCJiBfsGNw
“Nafrat se tum jinhe dekhte ho, tum marte ho jinko thokar, kya unpe guzarti hai, ek baar kabhi ghayal hokad…”
Uttaraji many thanks for providing the list of songs that Rafi Sahab rendered for Telugu movies. I had always thought there could be upto 12 songs, but perhaps the nine mentioned by you are the complete list. Thanks for giving us the insights too.
Musharrafji, Murtygaru and Anilji,
if I am replying now, it is not to enter into a debate on who is greater. Being born and fed on Telugu and Hindi songs, I wish to clarify certain points on Ghantasala.
He was a trained classical singer, yes, I agree. To say that he sang like a bhagavathar and that his voice was suited only for classical numbers , is a great injustice to the icon. I must have heard almost all Ghantasala songs like I have done of rafi saab. Again, I am not comparing them.
Permit me to say that Ghantasala was the singing voice of all heroes for for three dedades and more till his death. He had this talent to chage his voice to suit the hero. He sang for all the heroes during those decades . All the evergreen telugu romantic songs written by legendary lyricists, tuned by maestros are sung by Ghantasala. There are the soft whispering romantic songs, hte loud songs, the teasing songs, the tragic numbers, the philosophical ones, the angry ones, the happy ones ___ in every mood and every genre.
Here I have to mention that like rafi saab who was the voice of Johny Walker, similarly, inTelugu Ghantasala sang for the legendary comedian relangi(eg: Maya Bazar) and other comedians. And how he disguised his voice!
Musharrafji, I sent the song link as an example. Ghantasala has sung several high pitch songs faultlessly. Which we all agree that Rafi saab did too.
For those of you who don’t know about Rafi saab singing in telugu films, here is a short list. I am very proud that rafi saab sang in telugu.
As for Telugu films, Telugu stalwart N T Rama Rao and Rafi were great friends. So in NTR’s home productions, Rafi saab has sung Telugu songs beautifully. He would write the lyrics in urdu and practise them till he got the diction perfect. NTR himself used to help him.
Bhale Thammudu, a remake of China Town (Shammi Kapoor and Shakila) had NTR playing Shammi’s double role. The songs which Rafi has sung in this film.
1. Enta varu gaani vedantulaina gaani (Baar baar dekho hazar baar dekho)
2. Goplabala ninne choosi(dekhoji ek bala jogi)
3. Nede eenade (a duet with P Susheela)
4. Gumma gumma gumma(yamma yamma) __ a duet with P Susheela
5. Bada dilwala hoon main __ this qawwali with P Susheela is half in Hindi/Urdu and Telugu. A must for rafi fans
Aradhana __another NTR starrer__ a remake of the Hindi Geet
Naa madi ninnu pilichindi gaanami (aaja tujhko pukare mere geet re)
Akbar salim anarkali __ another NTR production with his son Balakrishna playing Salim
Sipahi sipahi neekai __ a duet with P Susheela
There are some more NTR home productions for which Rafi saab sang.
Rafi also sang Urdu songs in the Telugu film Bhakta ramadasu.
These are picturised on the character playing Kabir
1. Dil ko hamare chain nahi hai
2. Kahe ka rona-dhona hai
3. Naam Ram se jyada bhayi
4. Darshan dena Rama
Rafi saab didn’t charge a paisa for these songs as Nagaiah, the Telugu actor-director-priducer, a well-respected stalwart, did not have enough funds to make the movie. Nagaiah too, like rafi saab, waived his fee for many films if he found the producer did not have enough money. having heard this, Rafi saab decided to help Nagaiah and sang the songs free. This shows Rafi saab’s generosity.
Thank you all for putting up with me
With musical regards
Utthara
Dear Vithalji,
adabrafi to you too. I just read your post no 1945. I would never join in any debate with the likes of you, anil cherianji, mykji, p haldarji, etc. for the simple reason that each of you is a more knowledgeable music lover. your individual posts for several years now on this website and elsewhere are a testimony to that. i am a novice when compared to you all. that was also the reason that i did not give any comment on this thread for several months now, though i have been reading with amazement the references that each of you have made in several of your comments. i admit i am not qualified to be in the company of such learned music lovers as you all. But your pointed comment in 1945 was addressed to me and i only would write on one or two points there. Here I quote from your comment : “BTW, the points raised by Murthy 2010 are facts, A S Murthy ji, in fact meeku kuda telusu avi purthiga nizamu ani. (you are aware that they are completely true)”. In response I also quote the points from the gentleman’s comment (1) “Therefore, ghantasala fans are better judges than rafi fans” and (2) “it will not be out of place to mention here that there some hindi film singers with better pronunciation and purity of voice than rafi”. Now, my comments in post 1940 began as an exercise to ask this gentleman to provide specifics for his statements. Also, I had requested him to come to this site with his full and correct name. While you say that all the points made by murthy2010 are facts, i still fail to understand how “ghantasalaji’s fans are better judges than rafi-fans”. Perhaps you can explain this. Also, who are the hindi playback singers with better diction and pronunciation than rafi sahab. My queries have remained unanswered whereas my comment post under 1940 have been taken rather differently.
Lastly, i never knew that you were invited to join the Rafi Foundation, Hyderabad Chapter and that you rejected the offer. I am sorry to hear that. May I request you once again to be in touch with us so that perhaps you can understand the realities from any of the members of our organization ? I sincerely hope you do that and that we are blessed with such learned music lovers as you. You can log on to our blogsite at http://rafifoundation.blogspot.com/ for all the mobile numbers of our members and you are most welcome to contact any one of them and get to the bottom of what all we do here.
Vithalji, I have responded only because you state that what all was written by murthy2010 in post 1939 is true. I would not join in any diatribe with anyone normally. thanks for your post though.
Musharraf ji,
This statement needs relook, musharraf ji. If you read the article, the link which I had provided you other day, You will get it.
“His non-classical songs could not create that impact as his classical songs did.”
I agree with Utthara ji and A S Murthy ji, both rafi and ghantasala were peerless.