True Voice – Mohd Rafi
The following article was brought to my notice when Sharad posted it on MAS. The article has been trimmed down a bit keeping afloat Rafi details. However, anyone interested can go visit the source at http://tfmpage.com/forum/4980.6302.04.57.19.html
I am Swaminatha Iyer and I am 78 years old. I hail from Tiruchi and I am a part of music associations in Tiruchi, M’as as well as in West Bengal and Maharashtra.
I think it is wrong to condemn music or artists on either side of Vindhyas. Our Indian music is one of the few which has not been cleaned off by the western music though there has always been a influence. It speaks a lot of the richness of our music. Sometime back director of MTV had said that MTV westernized the music wherever it went but in India , MTV had to be Indianized for it to be accepted. A lot of this credit goes to the Indian film music.
I have been fortunate to have close personal association with Rafi, Sirkali, TMS, Dr. BMK, Kishore, SPB & KJY, PS, Mannadey and the one and only Lata Mangeshkar.
Comparisons are bound to come, but almost every artist or I have met considers Lata to be beyond comparison. Her talents are beyond anyone’s reach. Even Sirkazi used to talk of her singing like a die-hard fan as do countless others.
Now coming to the Rafi-SPB discussion. It might be difficult to convince an South Indian to believe Rafi is the better and at the same time Rafi crowd will never believe any other male singer comes anywhere nearer. There is one more mobile crowd, which is well conversant with Hindi and some south Indian language. Majority of them tilt to either Rafi or Kishore.
During one of my stays in M’as I had stayed with SPB. While talking of true voices he said, I don’t feel like half a singer when listening to Rafi. True voice is not a tech term but many in circle use it. Perfect example would be lata, but to understand consider our own PS who within her range is superb. People who do not have such true voices can never do justice to original. They generally underplay many parts of the song or fake it with bass/superficial singing. True voices make people like Sirkazi, Nusrat Fateh Ali khan, Lata… Inimitable. However since Sirkazi and Nusrat did not have the filmy voices their “real” following is limited to their local arena.
In addition to the true voice if the singer has a very good voice then in “most” cases he/she can better songs of others. It is this combination which makes Rafi stand out among the other male singers. There are many here who seem to have mistaken notions on a good bass and also on high pitch.
Bryan Adams does not require a monster bass in “Summer of 69” to sound real manly. It is the punch which gives that feel and that is decided only by the comfort level in most ranges (that is by what your throat can support). This you CAN never disguise with bass. Since people have talked about lack of manly voice viz. a viz. Rafi it was necessary to bring this point out. I have had the fortune of listening to most singers in studio and some times without a mike, practicing with MD’s.When Lata or Rafi do, the level is so high that people hesitate to even hum. It felt silly to sing in their presence (and it feels silly when someone says his voice isn’t manly).
In RD’s tribute when SPB sang “Aaja Aaja mein hoon” or “Chaand mera dil” it sounded only sweet and lacked punch if you compare with Rafi’s original.
Yesu once told me God has been partial to Rafi. He said “god gift term anavasyamaa romba common aa ippo use aardu”.. but idu Rafi kee thaan 100% porundu”. This person could sing “as intricately as a lady without sounding thin”, “cover any mood”, “versatility odey perfect example Rafi”. Yesu said most important is the comfort level over ranges which makes you feel God has been partial to Rafi. (But Of course in Rafi’s early career (1950’s) the voice was relatively feeble).
To people exposed to Rafi’s talent, these or any amount of praise can only seem less. I just wish he was alive and you people could get a live chance to hear him. Probably you can get hold of the DD album for the Geet Gaata Chal series where the first four episodes were dedicated to Rafi. Rafi is on camera singing “O Duniya Ke Rakwaaley” and many other songs. If you see and hear the last part you will realize why SPB said “impossible”. I think particularly those people who have talked about scales w.r.t Rafi should see this album. Its a known fact in industry that Rafi ruled high pitch and there is no male singer better in switching notes so easily. There are artists who can go beyond but then they sound strained or they don’t have pleasant voices when they venture into those territories.
Many singers of today are his compulsive followers. But they end up inheriting only part of his quality. Md. Aziz ended up with a sad voice. Mahendra Kapoor with a thick nasal voice. Anwar with a nasal voice. Sonu Nigam with a feminine voice. Rafi neither had a soft voice nor a heavy (bass) voice he had a good voice. Importantly did not strain at high notes, and voice if at all only became better at higher notes. If you see him singing it will remind you of Janaki. However diff the song is or the note is he will be smiling and singing. It is unthinkable that he cannot sing something.
There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo” song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect. There are lot of other songs of SPB where this great singer has played with songs in total control. You will find most south Indian singers who have had a good exposure say that it is beneficial to learn Hindustani as it gives better breath control and improves expression.
Rafi was not only able to glide over a song, the important thing was that he could express each word/sound when singing. It is one thing to hold your breath, start and reach a crescendo (high note), as like in “Shankara”, “Anbey (Yennai kaan villaye)” it is different ballgame if you have to do it from low notes or suddenly switch notes. With practice the former can be done, latter requires a special gift. Rafi had a natural ability to do the latter. In “Tum joh mil gaye ho” there is such a transition in the “karwaan mil gaya” part. I have never seen anyone do justice to most of his songs in my life time. In “parda hai parda” quawaali the similar part is “kar doon to, Akbar mera naam”. In fact most of his songs will have these specialty as it was his natural ability to sing freely in a wide range at the same time giving that extra expression.
Whereas SPB takes us to heavens with “Idu oru pon maali”,”Ilaya nila” “bisiladarenu”(kannada), when he sings Rafi’s song it lacks the punch or expression, though it has the bass. But at least most agree that SPB does some justice to original, whereas most others murder the original.
One trivial point I would like to add is that singing in Hindi is harder. There are more “JHA”,”CHA”,”HA”,”THA”, “KHA”,”JA”,”FA”. These take away the breath faster. The more expressive you are the more air you are using up. Just singing from Nabhi will not help, your throat also needs to do a lot, for singing in Hindi, Bengali etc. SPB makes you fall in love with his south Indian songs but same cannot be said about his Hindi songs. If you just glide through words having these sounds, you will never be expressive. Doing this as well as reaching high notes is not easy. Rafi had this gift and that’s why it is difficult to imagine anyone else in his shoes. Song “Chalkaaye jaam” has so much expression that it is unthinkable how anyone can sing it. When Rafi switches to a high note with “Mitwaa” in the song “Chaahunga mein tughey” you cannot replicate it with bass. Most others will sound as if they are shouting in such cases. That man’s throat had the ability to freely sing at such levels.
Versatility is not just the ability to sing in various styles, more important is how good you are singing in those styles. You have lot of Ghazal singers today but when Rafi sings a Ghazal you will sit up and take notice. You don’t have to be part of the Ghazal listeners crowd. This is one important aspect. Whatever style you sing you should be able to pull the common man to listen and not just a particular crowd. Pick “parda hai parda” or any qawalli and it will stand tall among other qawalli’s.
Variety is amazing :
songs of Guru Dutt’s Khagaz key phool or songs like abhi naa jao chod key, Aaja teri yaad aayi, Aaj kal mein dhal gaya, Aaj kal terey merey pyaar, Aasmaan sey aaya farishta, Dil ney pyaar kiya hai, Deewana mujh saa nahi, Din dhal jaaye, Duniya paagal hai, Jaane walon jara, Dil joh na kaha saka, Dil key jharokon mein, Dil kaa bhavar, Chalkey teri aakkhon sey, Kar chaley hum fida, khilona jaan kar tum, Woh jab yaad aay, Woh hain jara khafa, Vaadian mera daaman, Pathar key sanam, Chaand mera dil, Main zindagi kaa saath, Mainey poocha chaand sey, sun sun jaalima, Koi jab raah na paay, hum to chaley pardes, badan pey sitaarey, laal chadi maidaan, Tum jo mil gaye, O meri shaahey, Sau baar janam lengey, Tum mujhey yoon bhula, Tumney mujhey dekha, Terey merey sapney, Tumny pukaara hum chaley aay
Name a situation/mood and Rafi’s song will be there on the top.
Swami
Thank you commonmanji for this beautiful post. Offcourse Lataji has also sung fast numbers. But I think Ashaji’s voice was more suited than lataji so far fast numbers(specially cabarett dancing songs) are concerned while most of the music directors utilized Lataji’s sweeter voice for singing romantic songs. Both were classically trained but I think Lataji had an edge there. But then in the ghazal area Ashaji did a wonderful job as we can see in “Umraojaan”. But why Lataji has become more famous than her younger sister, I think due to the exeptional sweetness that God has given in her voice. I think Murthyji and Vitthalji can post their valued opinions in the matter.
“Ashaji was more fluent and versatile than Lataji”
i’m not sure if that’s true but i do know that asha is more ambitious than lata. she feels the need to sing all kinds of songs to prove how good she is. lata flat out refused to sing certain songs. there’s this misconception that lata could not do fun or rock and roll songs and that’s simply not true. here’s a nice, fast duet with her and mohammed rafi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nJR91eo-Qs
Dear Murthyji,
Thank you for the post. I get your point.Eversince the invention of radio, television and lastly internet, music has ceased to be confined within the national boundaries. Now people from any part of the world has access to listen to any song of any singer irrespective of the language in which it is rendered. Offcourse to know the lanuage would certainly be an additional advantage although it is not a compulsory prerequisite to arrive at a comparative judgement.Since we all share the common culture and tradition of India from the time immemorial we find lot of similarities in our mentalitiy, attitude, language and approach to life.Therefore it is easier for any person living in a particular region of this sub-continent to understand the cultural aspect of another region than a person belonging to different cultural background.
However, I am interested to know your views on one point. In your post 2114 you wrote that Ashaji was more fluent and versatile than Lataji. I have also heard some people saying the same thing.Please do not misunderstand me because it is not with the intention to start a Lata/Asha debate, but only due to curosity that I like to raise the point. At that time I was so obsessed with Rafi/Ghantasala issue that I could not ask you about that. Although I am a Lata fan and I place her above all female singers, I shall be happy if you please enlighten me in this area.
dear sri musharrafji,
very glad that you have joined the list of latest fans of ghantasala. but, musharrafji, again you got me wrong vide my post 2169. what i meant to say was that if and if rafi fans like you understand the telugu language also as well as they understand hindi language, then certainly they would be in a better position to know how filmier also the voice of ghantasala was apart from being classical. if i do not understand hindi language, still i can appreciate the qualities of the voice of rafi. but if i understand hindi also, then i will certainly be able to assess how filmier his voice was. this is my feeling i wanted to convey to all rafi fans. anyway, please understand that the telugu language also originated from sanskrit and the pronunciation of telugu words is very very close to that of sanskrit. regards.
Dear Vitthalji,
Thank you very much for your kind remarks and for your musical posts that enabled me to enjoy the artistry of ghantasala more than ever. I am also happy to note that your knowledge of Rafi songs is much more than I thought. That confirms my very high opinion I had formed about your perception of music. Frankly speaking, I enjoyed this healthy debate that helped me expand my mental horizon in music. Both Rafi and Ghantasala were great singers whose contribution to Indian film music shall always be remembered as long as people listen to Indian film music. Regards.
2194 – Dear Musharaff ji
Thanks for your post. Woh Bharath desh hai mera is one of my favourites of rafi. In many places in Andhra Pradesh, this song can be heard on independence day – Aug. 15th. Mere dosti mera pyar is a normal song if compared to many other gems of rafi. Take for instance, as you mentioned, paun choo lene do, aapne yad dilaya, yeh mera prem patra, chaudvin ka chaand – numerous gems, which cannot be counted on fingers or written in few lines. But I firmly believe that the mid 50’s to late 60’s rafi had the perfect voice – full of mesmerism and during this period the gems rolled for which no comparison can be seen in the hindi film world. Obviously, somehow I really admire the modulation skills of rafi in yeh chaand sa roshan chehra – I just get carried away by the song whenever I hear it. It was the perfect song flowing from his great voice. Same feelings are applicable in telugu too. The himagiri sogasulu and numerous other gems correspond to that. I reciprocate my affectionate feelings for your post and liking for ghantasala songs and padyams, which but reflects a true perception towards understanding music and a great singer in his way. Very few people can do that. You have said you have become a ghantasala fan – in fact which confirms you are a true music fan. – Regards.
Dear Viththalji,
I would be very happy if you could listen to 3 songs of Rafi and let me know your views.
1) Film-Dosti: Song: Mere dosti mera pyar.
2) Film-Dosti; Song: Chahunga main tujhe sanjh savere.
3) Film-Sikandar-e-Azam:Song: Jahan daal daal par sone ki chidia karti hai basera, woh Bharat desh hai mera.
All the songs are available in smashhits.com. The first two are also available in You tube. In smashhits.com you have to put your cursor in music and then click “Oldies”then you will find all the old films alphabetically. I am sorry I could not give you a direct link to the songs like you due to my inadequate knowledge in computer. In you tube the first song may start with the words “Koi jab raha na paye” instead of “Mere dosti mera pyar”. Hope I have not overburdened you. Regards
Dear Murthyji, post 2169,
To understand or appreciate a song, possession of musical ears is more important than to have the knowledge of the language in which it is rendered. A person without having a musical perception cannot understand a song even it is sung in his mother tongue. My mother tongue is Bengali, not Hindi, Urdu, or Telegu. But that does not bar me from enjoying songs sung in those languages. I have immensely enjoyed, Shiva Shankari and other songs of Ghantasala. I can understand hindi more than urdu because hindi and bengali both have originated from Sanskrit. But I have also enjoyed many urdu songs of Rafi and ghazals of Mehdi Hasan without understanding considerable number of verses. About Rafi, Lataji has stated in one of the introduction she said in the beginning of one audio CD sung by Rafi which is in my possession. ” Woh har tarah ki gana is khubi se gaate the ki gaana na samajh ne walo bhi wah! wah! karte the. Ayese kalakar bar bar janam nahin lete” This is not only true for Rafi but also to some extent true for other great singers like Ghantasala too other wise how could I also enjoy Himagiri Sogasulu or Vagdanam-Velugu Choopavayya and Manasuna manasai without understanding telegu?
Now why I rated Rafi over Ghantasala from the filmy angle that I have already depicted in my previous posts the repeatation of which here is unnecessary. It is up to you to accept or reject that. I do not mind.
Regards.
Vitthalji, Thank you for presenting the beautiful”Padyalu” sung by our disnguished singer Ghantasala. If one listens to this song he will be marvelled at the technical expertise that he possessed in his voice. I think I by this time I have become a fan of Ghantasala too.
Musharraf ji – thanks a lot for your post. One last genre only for you – the padyam – please pen your views.
http://www.chitramala.com/audio-songs/pop_new.php?sid=5174&wid=749
Common man – for your views as well please.
2182 post MK Jhu
“The gods were partial to Rafi when it came to the beauty of his voice. Ghantasala had a phenomenal talent for grasping the tehcnical rigor (no amount of training is going to allow someone to reach Ghantasala’s ability to easily sing the technicalities of a song”
Yes, therefore they were both special – great in their own ways – blessed by divinity
Musharraf ji – I respect your views – long live rafi and ghantasala in the hearts of music lovers.
musharaff ji – forgot one point
They were divine gandharvas of music in human form to create the evergreen songs in their respective fields – god’s mysterious creation.
Musharaff ji and vitthal ji
2179 post song himagiri sogasulu
yes, I listened to the ghantasala songs – Himagari sogasulu the duet – I really fell to the song – There is no difference in the greatness of both rafi and ghantasala – each is capable of creatic magic with their renditions. Each has his own speciality. Some one said they are two poles and two corners of a river of playback singing – perfectly correct.
Viththaiji,
Thanks for the musical posts. I have listened to both the duets “Fifty fifty’ and “Himagiri Sogasulu”. But I have liked the second one much more because in this song Ghantasala’s classical ability has been fully utilised. One can see the real talent of Ghantasala in this song. The tune is melodious and suseela has also done full justice to it by her sweet voice.
hi bhushan,
“Sir, it is natural to expect some posts, specially if you convey some facts which are not controversial or untrue – I know many rafian friends, – balanced, knowing the truth (not like this common man) who agree with each and every point of what has been stated here. even there are many friends among kishore kumar fans who never argue – very balanced and understanding (again not like this common man)”
i get it. you just want people to “agree with each and every point” of your narrow minded views. only those who “agree with each every point” of your narrow minded views are balanced and understanding. you want people to conveniently stifle their views for your satisfaction and distort truth with insincere formality. that’s just too bad. i will speak what i believe is true.
siri,
“Do you say rafi knew music well and ghantasala did not ? What do you mean by your point ? or do you want to convey that rafi fans are better musicians than ghantasala fans.”
this one is my favorite. rofl…what a gem. i said that some ghantasala fans are only interested in talking about how is more knowledgeable or who has what kind of training and grossly ignore the artistic aspect of music…how do you reply to this? by trying to challenge with who *knows* more. you have just proven the exact point i was making! you forced this question even though i never asked it and in fact tried to avoid it! because that’s your primary criteria for music (or so it seems)…who *knows* more? music is more than just knowing. anyhow, music for me is not an academic affair. it is a hobby and a passion for music lovers to enjoy and relax.
“there was a lot of fuss made by you and others when it was mentioned by sri Vitthal once that rafi approached ghantasala but ghantasala never approached rafi”
but that says very little! it just means that rafi was very modest, humble, and saintly. what does it say about ghantasala? lots of possibilities (some of them quite false!) but why speculate. you can’t make much from these formalities.
“You have run away from kishore kumar site failing to give replies to musicians and now started to put your views on common people who are not much experts on music.”
oh this is just great 🙂 great, great comedy. i really appreciate this. i honestly appreciate the presence of all opinions. it’s great to have ghantasala fans. but this is great commedy. i have not “run away”. the comments are uploaded once a year on that site…you should know that…so often i’ll just lose interest. i missed any queries…i’ll have to check them.
“Dr. Rao has not made any adverse comment, he has praised rafi as a great and accomplished singer – you have unnecessarily blown out of proportion your biased views”
I welcomed his comments. I just candidly expressed my own views.
“Why are you so insecure ?”
LOL, this was another favorite. you’re reading into all this waaay too much! to answer your comical question, i have proven to be extremely secure and proudly grateful for the achievments, impact, and singing of mohammed rafi. i am so confident about him that i have on a number of occasions accepted that while i consider rafi overall the greatest, there are certainly aspects or particular songs where other singers may have the edge. i clearly stated that ghantasala’s rendering of “kuhu kuhu” was better or that ghantasala was better for the songs that placed tremendous emphasis on the technicalities of music. i have often stated that there are some songs that kishore kumar sang that not even my favorite could have bested. i have accepted that rafi was mortal like any other person and sometimes came into a recording with a cold or poor health and it showed (especially in the late 1970s). i comfortably accept these things because overall i am extremely thankful for the phenomenon that was mohammed rafi, the mount everest of singing!
honestly, i welcome all dissent and comments from all fans. i do appreciate the occasional comedy 🙂
murthy2010,
“at last you have made a confession”
confession? lol, you’re taking this stuff waaay too seriously.
sastry,
“Your comments are susceptible – lacking in ethics.”
lacking in ethics? lol. is this a court hearing or are we just here because we love music? that line provided great comedy. thanks 🙂
you both seem to be fans who are too academic and methodical and fail to appreciate the artistic aesthetics.
bhaskamurthy,
“Adinarayana rao, recorded kuhu kuhu song in hindi for rafi – never preferred rafi for any telugu song”
perfectly understandable and takes away nothing from rafi’s singing in hindi which was his base.
“never attempt to sing like ghantasala – it is simply never possible.”
agreed.
vitthal,
“what a mess is being created sir ?”
just for fun 🙂 i like a candid discussion where everyone says what he wants to say and doesn’t have to distort his thoughts for the sake of politeness. if i’m not fan of anr, i’d like to say so.
“accordingly the voice used to change soft, hard, coarse, rough, velvet, classical, filmy etc. etc.”
now this i’d love to hear! i saw one of the songs you posted (where his voice sounded pretty good imo) but couldn’t find the other which i’d like to listen to see the transition.
hi anil,
“I don’t really agree with your view that Mukeshji was a technically deficient”
yeah i didn’t mean to say that declaratively but more as a possibility as others interpret. ghantasala fans often argue that ghantasala was a better singer than rafi because ghantasala could sing technically really, really hard songs. my reply is that rafi was very proficient technically and was almost never limited by his technical ability in the 5000 songs that he sang and that’s all that matters to me. at this point what stands out is the other things like rafi’s voice quality, expression, etc. however, i would not so confidently make the same argumetn for mukesh (even though his songs are inimitable & immortal). if a ghantasala fan suggested that ghantasala was better than mukesh for technical reasons, i wouldn’t really be able to refute. i understand that shankar jaikishan had to work very hard with mukesh to get him to sing certain tunes correctly and patiently stood by at the request of raj kapoor. this is not to take away from mukesh’s eternal expression but i can see a valid argument for technical proficiency. with singers like kishor, rafi, and ghantasala it was never really an issue.
“Sorry, Ghantasala can sing the songs mentioned with quite ease”
Do you honestly believe that Ghantasala can sing “Yeh Dil Na Hota Bechara” or “Ek Ladki Bheeghi Bhaagi Si” as well as Kishore Kumar? No doubt that Ghantasala could technically sing those songs in his sleep. But he won’t capture the magic of Kishore Kumar. To be honest, of course I’m playing around here. You and I both know full well that each of these legendary singers had unique qualities that allowed them to sing a particular song that only that singer could take to such heights.
“The kuhu kuhu song – how easily ghantasala sings – it is a filmy song not classical”
I agree with you that the song is not purely classical. Of course you’re right. But it’s not very filmy either IMO. You my friend have been subject to the limitations of a smaller Telegu industry so your view of what is filmy and is not is more skewed and limited. I consider a song like “Kitna Pyara Vaada” or “Dil Pukaare Aaa Re” as a purely filmy song. Rafi’s voice is just beautiful and that’s why he’s singing it and not someone else who could also sing it.
I repeat that Ghantasala would technically sing these songs in this sleep. But his voice won’t take the song to the heights that Rafi’s mellifluous voice did. The gods were partial to Rafi when it came to the beauty of his voice. Ghantasala had a phenomenal talent for grasping the tehcnical rigor (no amount of training is going to allow someone to reach Ghantasala’s ability to easily sing the technicalities of a song) and he certainly had a very good voice but that voice was just not as versatile or as filmy as Rafi’s. Depending on your point of view or the song in question, there will be a different answer for who was greater. From my point of view, it’s Rafi and it’s not even close. From the HFM point of view, it’s Rafi and it’s not even close. HFM has different criteria than Telegu.
“Telugu ghantasala voice suits exactly the actor – ANR – hindi same actor -did rafi’s voice suited ANR no.”
rafi’s voice suited dharmendra, vinod khanna, shammi kapoor, dilip kumar, jeetendra, rishi kapoor, etc. that’s a far greater achievment 🙂 i’ve never watched rafi’s songs on ANR before 1971 (when rafi was still at his best) so i can’t really comment. i don’t know much about ANR but the few snippets i’ve seen, i didn’t see anything to write home about.
“He was one singer whose vocal range could outclass any other singer, whether it was me, Asha, Mannada or Kishore bhaiya. Yet, he never believed in dominating the scene.”
while i appreciate this from lata, i stand behind my assertion that i take the words of luminaries with a grain of salt. they don’t say these things as absolute truths as they as a tribute. i also agree with sudip’s prior comment that it wasn’t vocal range alone that made rafi rafi. rafi was a phenomenal combination of many things. each of the singers had something that stood out. each singer sang songs that no one else could have bettered. rafi & lata are like apples & oranges and one cannot compare them. but overall, i hold rafi & lata in the highest regard. this is not the say that the other singers are replaceable…of course not!
hi bhushan: i never made any claims on rafi’s telegu songs. i know that he sang in the telegu movie aradhana (1976) which was a re-make of geet. at this point, rafi’s voice was not as consistent because of his checkered health. besides, it’s hard to judge a singer when he is not fully comfortable with the language.
Musharraf ji,
It was nice to have discussions with you and share songs. I shall close with a last duet of ghantasala and suseela – composed in his own music direction. Please pen your views. I forgot to give this song earlier.
http://www.chitramala.com/audio-songs/pop_new.php?sid=7835&wid=1146
I am sure all my rafian friends will have a replica (in music) of rafi and lata on hearing this song.
sorry musharaff ji
missed the link
http://www.chitramala.com/audio-songs/pop_new.php?sid=5760&wid=1244
The song is from early 70’s
Musharraf ji
A duet for you – composition of the greatest telugu music director – S Rajeswara Rao. Singers – suseela and ghantasala. Narrate your feeling of ecstasy after you hear it. Will remind the best of rafi-lata duets
Dear friends,
Exactly thirty years back Rafi Sahab on this day bade farewell to this world immersing millions in tears.
May God grant him eternal peace! Amen!
2153 – common man
Did rafi had a filmier voice in telugu songs ? Can you clarify please. We can say no.
Anil cherian
The questions look childish. Only one question, how come many rafi fans are attracted by ghantasala as can be seen, otherwise can this discussion continue so long for so many years with so many posts. As already said, please realise there are two poles north and south – that is it.
2164
That was a good post as far as hindi playback singing is concerned and not beyond that. Agree with all the points which are beyond dispute. But in the country HFM is not all, there is lot more than that. Even god has many incarnations – though almighty is one. Siimilarly, music is one but the incarnations as artists are definitely many – each great in his own way – Without understanding this basic philosophy and truth – dragging arguments.
Anil cherian,
Never please bring any other singer in between two fixed poles. ghantasala is being discussed like rafi after 37 years of his passing away. Which playback singer has such following in india other than rafi and ghantasala. Just show any other playback singer with such popularity after decades of their passing away. SPB and Yesudas currently available, do they have similar following. Many of ghantasala fans are younger chaps posting here, including some in 30’s – Which record like bhagavad geetha of ghantasala is played in temple daily after decades of the passing away of the respective artist ? The south is blessed to have such foundational singer, who is the light to the southern singers and ultimately all of whom have followed his ways. Now please do not tell ghantasala came first and other talented singers came next – But the benchmark remains rafi in hindi and ghantasala in south – this truth cannot be changed. Only jealousy can speak otherwise.
Dear Mr Anil Cherian & Mr Haldar
Nice posts-I think in future there is no point in responding to such comments on Rafi sahab. I also wrote on this issue after lot of reluctance. I really doubt if any other singer could have done justice to ‘Jungle mein mor nacha’ , ‘ye mehlon ye takhton’ ‘Tumse kahoon ek baat paron se” etc..
the sheer versatility of Rafi sahab in Indian film music-yes I would say Indian film music and not Hindi film music- is really unmatched. When you combine suhc great (playback) singing skills with equally great personal traits, you get only one Rafi in a millennium.
As someone had said, there could be many singers like Rafi in the past or future but there cannot be one more Mohammad Rafi.
That , I think, sums it all.
Lata on Rafi:
http://www.thehindu.com/arts/music/article528270.ece
“He was one singer whose vocal range could outclass any other singer, whether it was me, Asha, Mannada or Kishore bhaiya. Yet, he never believed in dominating the scene.”
“It is very wrong to say that Kishore Kumar overtook Rafi bhaiya in the early 1970s.Kishore was no doubt at his peak, but Rafi bhaiya was equally effective with Tere naam ka diwana, Gulabi aankhen, Yeh duniya yeh mehfil and Tum jo mil gaye ho. Even Kishore bhaiya never felt he was ahead of Rafi.”
dear sri musharrafji,
vide your post 2159, please understand that i am fan of both the legends and i have been listening to the songs of both of them for many and many years and i understand both the languages very well. it is not that i am posting my views without listening to the songs of rafi minutely or taking the support of some senseless posts of common man. see his post 2153 which doesnot make any sense at all. by the way, you have mentioned elsewhere in your previous posts that you do not know much about the telugu language. so, that being the case, i wonder how would you rate rafi more filmy than ghantasala. unless you know both the languages very well and understand the meanings and moods, you cannot even compare them and conclude who is more filmy. what do you say? in fact, many and many rafi fans do not know much or anything about regional languages and yet they feel rafi is the best of all. how come? i wonder. regards.
2159 – Musharraf ji
thanks for your post. I am happy to meet a nice music lover who could enjoy sweetness of the songs in music, as compared to some of other people who fall short of appreciating music in its true form or true way. I am again happy to note you have liked the two songs – i was mentioning the two songs of ghantasala were from the same film for the same actor – change in voice and melody depending upon the situational essence of the songs – specifically this was addressed to common man here – you could catch correctly Mr. Musharraf ji – thanks and regards.
Anil cherian
Lata vs suseela,
P suseela’s voice is more stronger and melodious than lata mangeshkar, in some songs. However, both are well matched against each other as both were well technically qualified. Sure lata has got more weightage. But rafi vs ghantasala, the latter has a clear edge, when overall traits as a musician are looked and taken into account which ensured that none could compete or dominate him as long as he was there. it is not the case of lata vs suseela.
post 2162:
Mr. Anil Cherian,
Excellent post! Everything you’ve said is true. SPB cannot speak for more than 10 minutes without mentioning Rafi’s name. And Yesudas’s respect for his idol is known to everyone. At every opportunity he gets, Manna Dey speaks of Rafi. You’ve now read what Lata M thinks of Rafi. If Kishore Kumar were alive today, he’d have probably given the greatest tribute to him. In an interview given to the Illustrated Weekly of India in the 80s, Kishore da had stated that he listens to Mohd Rafi during his leisure time. The electronic version of that interview is available in cyberspace, but not surprisingly, the mention of Rafi has been taken out by Kishore’s fans. So many of his contemporaries consider him to be the greatest playback singer ever, but now you have ustad khan, pandit bose and their chelas commenting on a singer who has been held in the highest esteem by the most famous singers the country has produced. I don’t know what to say, except that I’m enjoying the comedy.
Coming back to comedy, I agree that the Mehmood-Manna combo was a potent one, but I think the Mehmood-Rafi combo was equally good. As far as comedy goes, Rafi to me is Johnnie Walker Blue Label, Kishore Johnnie Walker Gold Label and Manna Johnnie Walker Green Label. Most other singers are at the Black Label or the Red Label category.
For those of you who haven’t seen the “jangal mein mor nacha kisi ne na dekha” act on screen, I’d request you to view the video below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWk3v6pwbPc
Salil, for all his bias against Rafi, knew that there was only one singer who could give the right type of Johnny Walker nasha. No amount of classical training would have prepared you for this song. Rafi acts so well in this song that all that Johnny Walker has to do is to follow its essence on screen. Looks like a simple song, but try it and you’ll stop talking about octaves and taans. You’ll then realise why it is impossible to beat this man in the field of “playback” singing.
As far as Mehmood-Rafi combo goes, I’d like to cite a parody composed by Pancham in Waris:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZyCFWS7zZc
Manna Dey is very good in comedy songs; he has sung several of them in Bengali too. As a kid, I used to hum the “bade miya diwane aise na bano” song quite often, with Rafi on Joy Mukherjee and Manna on I. S. Johar; here it is for your pleasure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEJ68jGliyw&feature=related
What flair, kya e-style!
Lata on Rafi:
http://www.hindu.com/mag/2010/07/25/stories/2010072550090200.htm
“He was one singer whose vocal range could outclass any other singer, whether it was me, Asha, Mannada or Kishore bhaiya. Yet, he never believed in dominating the scene.”
“It is very wrong to say that Kishore Kumar overtook Rafi bhaiya in the early 1970s.Kishore was no doubt at his peak, but Rafi bhaiya was equally effective with Tere naam ka diwana, Gulabi aankhen, Yeh duniya yeh mehfiland Tum jo mil gaye ho. Even Kishore bhaiya never felt he was ahead of Rafi.”
Great discussion going on! While YEah, the mind Plays that sometimes we miss the real melody…
“man more bawara…” Rafi sahab to Kishore da
“Mann re tu kahe na dheer dhare” (kishore da to rafi sahab”
Simply, the message is… love, the heart feels in form of divine singing, voice and person.
Long Live Rafi Sahab!
Adab Rafi!
Haldar sir,
The one comedian who sounded better in a non-Rafi voice was Kishoreda himself. Yes, even for Kishoreda Rafi Sahab’s voice was the second best. I think Mannada did superb play backing for Mehmood whenever he got a chance and the actual voice similarity was more with Manna-Mehmood combo than Rafi-Mehmood combo.
Common_man,
I don’t really agree with your view that Mukeshji was a technically deficient singer (if that’s what you really meant to say). There may be a few songs here and there where he did sound a little beat off-key somewhere. But that doesn’t make him an ordinary singer. He had many unique strengths. It is almost impossible for someone to sing like Mukesh and not sound amateurish.
Hi Common_man,
Nice posts, all of them… too bad certain people simply can’t see or simply refuse to see your points.
Ghantasala fans,
Let me repeat once again, Rafi’s greater popularity is not only on account of his singing in Hindi. The sweetness of his voice and the free flowing style appeals to most, whether they are able to follow the lyrics or not. The scenario is pretty similar when it comes to Lata V Suseela. For all her singing prowess, Suseela would not match up with Lata’s uncommonly sweet voice, to a neutral ear.
Let me ask you a few questions.
#1. How come there are many Telugu people who are more drawn towards Rafi than Ghantasala?
#2. How come Rafi has (much) greater fan following in Kerala and Tamilnadu (two states where Hindi is not spoken much)?
#3. How come a master Carnatic classical singer/light singer combo- K J Yesu Das- consider Rafi his icon? (now please don’t answer me that KJY has made this statement about Ghantasala or that speech in a certain ceremony where he praised Ghantasla- it is a fact that for KJY, Rafi is the ultimate)
#4. What do you have to say about SPB’s fascination for Rafi? (again I don’t expect you to contest the fact- that Rafi is SPB’s singing God).
#5. How come Ghantasala has so few fans among the young people of Andhra Pradesh?
#6. How would Ghantasala’s voice/style gel with some of the current crop of South Indian heroes?
All,
I saw an interesting argument a few posts above of SPB finding defects in Rafi’s singing. Really? What’s the big deal? Even I can find a few defects. But the point is does that make Rafi a lesser singer- for SPB and for others? No, it doesn’t. A Ghantasala has to be technically (applying strict Indian classical music norms) perfect; a Rafi doesn’t. Rafi is Rafi not because of his strict adherence to classical music rules. One can actually say that non-compliance to Hindustani classical musical rules is a major factor that accounts for Rafi’s immense popularity among people who are not from the Hindi heartland.
Correction – listen to their songs
At the end of the day whatever the quarter given or taken, Rafi & Ghantasala will remain the epitome of singing for their fans respectively. No point in continuing the discussion like a saas bahu serial. Rather listen their songs & enjoy life.
Dear Murthyji,
Thank you for your post. Acually what I stated in my last post is not anything new. From the very beginning I was maintaining that Ghantasala was classically superior to Rafi but Rafi was more capable in rendering more melody and sweetness in the minds of the audience in the filmy songs that he sang. Both Rafi and Ghantasala were great singers with different voice structures, bestowed on them by God that made the difference in their relative performance. Ghantasala’s voice structure which was strong and coarse that made him sing filmy songs based on different types of classical ragas easily. Rafi on the other hand possessed a soft and melodious voice that enabled him to sing all types of filmy songs more effectively. I am not telling that Ghantasala could not sing non-classical filmy songs. Otherwise how could he dominate the telegu film industry for such a long time? But here we are making a comparison between songs of rafi with Ghantasala.
Murthyji, voice is an important factor here. This is godgifted. Mukesh, Manana Dey, Kishore Kumar, Taalat mehmood, Ghantasala, Rafi, all had different types voices that influenced them to sing different types of songs that suited their respective voices. I agree with commonmanji when he said, it needed a silky or velvet voice like Rafi to sing “Aise to na dekho” or “Abhi na jao chchod kar” which Ghantasala with his strong voice might not be able to create the same sweetness and melody that Rafi did. There are hundereds of songs like these and other types too for which Rafi was the perfect voice. On the other hand Rafi with his classical ability would not be able to do full justice to sing ‘Shiva Shankari” or “Shyamala dandakam” or songs like these. Rafi’s voice was so unique that whatever song he sang instantly captured the mind of the listener more than any one else. I would request you to please listen to Rafi’s songs a little minutely and compare them with Ghantasala’s. you will yourself get the answer.
Viththalji, thank you for the post.I listened to both the songs”Vagdanam Harikada and Vagdanam velegu Choopavayya, the duet by Ghantasala. Both are beautiful songs. I liked the second one more because of the sweetness of the song. I wished Rafi could sing an antara of that song alongwith the female singer.
Binu nair ji – contd. to my immeidate previous post on numerology
The 2nd house in astrology rules voice and a beneficial aspect on 2nd house gives a very pleasant and attractive voice. Both rafi and ghantasala in their horoscopes have connection of jupiter, the highest benefical planet, to their 2nd houses, which is the main reason for their attractive voices. Ghantasala’s rasi appears to be taurus , ruling venus, par excellence planet connected with music and musician, thus fully complying with the requirements of music from astrological point of view. I think rafi ji’s was scorpio rasi ( not so sure) – again the rasi being mutually in aspect to the taurus sign. Sorry for bothering with my views – but thought that when the issue has come, I could pen some views. Thanks and regards.
Vitthal ji
Thanks for referring my name.
Binu Nair ji – the date 26th amounting to 8 in numerology is ruled by saturn which is a friendly planet to venus, ruling music. Thus, people born on 26th have interest towards music and depending upon other planetary factors link to their lucky numbers can show success as a musician.
2140 – common man
Sorry, Ghantasala can sing the songs mentioned with quite ease, but on the other hand, how many songs of ghantasala can be so easily sung by rafi or kishore or others on the scale and beauty of ghantasala? Could you kindly clarify ? The kuhu kuhu song – how easily ghantasala sings – it is a filmy song not classical – Telugu ghantasala voice suits exactly the actor – ANR – hindi same actor -did rafi’s voice suited ANR – No. Rafi’s songs in telugu for NTR – not at all suitable – ghantasala’s voice was perfectly suitable for NTR. NTR and ANR are filmy actors not classical performers. Rafi’s telugu songs are copies of his hindi tunes and he never attempted any telugu song of any great telugu music director. NTR out of some dispute with ghantasala brought rafi, that too, under a music director of telugu who was NTR’s faithful follower. Great music directors of telugu such as rajeswara rao, asked NTR to simply get out if he dictated terms on singers for their compositions. S Rajeswara rao and pendyala always preferred ghantasala for their compositions and these two were numero one filmy music directors and not classical musicians. Adinarayana rao, recorded kuhu kuhu song in hindi for rafi – never preferred rafi for any telugu song – Adinarayana rao used to say to other singers – never attempt to sing like ghantasala – it is simply never possible.
contd…
In the same site, in terms of popularity, no current singer in bollywood is visible similar to the greats mentioned in previous post. Similarly, in the south, ghantasala stands numero one , being the legend alone of yester years – Current singers of the south – SPB is no where near. Only K J Yesudas, currently available singer, occupies the next from the south among playback singers. Lata Mangeshkar stands top among the females – single legend among the top 10 in females – remaining all are music directors – good mixture of hindi and southern industry talents – really interesting and shows the Indian talents – deserving artists getting deserving popularity.
P haldar ji – Your previous post
Your quiz question : I think the comedian is none other than kishore kumar. Am I correct ?
http://www.whopopular.com/India/Musicians
The legends being continuously discussed occupy their ranks among top 5 musicians of India – 3 being people who passed away decades back. Among the top 5 only 2 are current musicians i.e. music directors and not playback singers, hence are in no way comparable to the other 3 greats. Really fascinating.
2152- Murthy 2010
Hundred percent agree with your views. None can challenge your post.
“in telugu films, do you think ghantasala achieved incomparable success without any filmy touch in his voice?”
yes and it’s because he was in the telegu industry and was not competing with mohammed rafi & kishore kumar who had far filmier voices.
dear sri musharrafji,
vide your post 2149, at last you have made a confession by stating that ghantasala is the best playback singer from classical angle and rafi is from filmy angle. but your confession is not complete. because show me one great singer in any language without filmy voice and with success on the scale of ghantasala. in telugu films, do you think ghantasala achieved incomparable success without any filmy touch in his voice? certainly no. you can say that ghantasala scores over rafi because his voice was both filmy and classical. i adivise you not to blindly take the support of fans like common man who do not have any common sense in their views. regards.
2144 – Binu Nair ji
Thank you sir, for the post. 26-6-1956 – date of birth and connection with music – Sir, I am not expert in these dates and numerology – Mr. Bhaskar Murthy has put up numerology – he would be the better person to answer your query sir. I was just happy to say that both rafi and ghantasala, two greatest & famous ever playback singers, were born in december – it was just my discovery and sir, has nothing to do with numerology.
Common man – what a mess is being created sir ? What are your views on my post on two songs posted – same film for same actor by ghantasala – His voice used to change upon the situations – change in voice technique uniqueness – this has to be understood sir, again I repeat – the language and culture and the scene in which song is rendered to be understood – accordingly the voice used to change soft, hard, coarse, rough, velvet, classical, filmy etc. etc.
Dr. rao sir , – Please do not take seriously.
Walijah ji, Siri, Bhushan ji, Musharaff ji, music lover ji – well documented points – I feel all are correct.