True Voice – Mohd Rafi
The following article was brought to my notice when Sharad posted it on MAS. The article has been trimmed down a bit keeping afloat Rafi details. However, anyone interested can go visit the source at http://tfmpage.com/forum/4980.6302.04.57.19.html
I am Swaminatha Iyer and I am 78 years old. I hail from Tiruchi and I am a part of music associations in Tiruchi, M’as as well as in West Bengal and Maharashtra.
I think it is wrong to condemn music or artists on either side of Vindhyas. Our Indian music is one of the few which has not been cleaned off by the western music though there has always been a influence. It speaks a lot of the richness of our music. Sometime back director of MTV had said that MTV westernized the music wherever it went but in India , MTV had to be Indianized for it to be accepted. A lot of this credit goes to the Indian film music.
I have been fortunate to have close personal association with Rafi, Sirkali, TMS, Dr. BMK, Kishore, SPB & KJY, PS, Mannadey and the one and only Lata Mangeshkar.
Comparisons are bound to come, but almost every artist or I have met considers Lata to be beyond comparison. Her talents are beyond anyone’s reach. Even Sirkazi used to talk of her singing like a die-hard fan as do countless others.
Now coming to the Rafi-SPB discussion. It might be difficult to convince an South Indian to believe Rafi is the better and at the same time Rafi crowd will never believe any other male singer comes anywhere nearer. There is one more mobile crowd, which is well conversant with Hindi and some south Indian language. Majority of them tilt to either Rafi or Kishore.
During one of my stays in M’as I had stayed with SPB. While talking of true voices he said, I don’t feel like half a singer when listening to Rafi. True voice is not a tech term but many in circle use it. Perfect example would be lata, but to understand consider our own PS who within her range is superb. People who do not have such true voices can never do justice to original. They generally underplay many parts of the song or fake it with bass/superficial singing. True voices make people like Sirkazi, Nusrat Fateh Ali khan, Lata… Inimitable. However since Sirkazi and Nusrat did not have the filmy voices their “real” following is limited to their local arena.
In addition to the true voice if the singer has a very good voice then in “most” cases he/she can better songs of others. It is this combination which makes Rafi stand out among the other male singers. There are many here who seem to have mistaken notions on a good bass and also on high pitch.
Bryan Adams does not require a monster bass in “Summer of 69” to sound real manly. It is the punch which gives that feel and that is decided only by the comfort level in most ranges (that is by what your throat can support). This you CAN never disguise with bass. Since people have talked about lack of manly voice viz. a viz. Rafi it was necessary to bring this point out. I have had the fortune of listening to most singers in studio and some times without a mike, practicing with MD’s.When Lata or Rafi do, the level is so high that people hesitate to even hum. It felt silly to sing in their presence (and it feels silly when someone says his voice isn’t manly).
In RD’s tribute when SPB sang “Aaja Aaja mein hoon” or “Chaand mera dil” it sounded only sweet and lacked punch if you compare with Rafi’s original.
Yesu once told me God has been partial to Rafi. He said “god gift term anavasyamaa romba common aa ippo use aardu”.. but idu Rafi kee thaan 100% porundu”. This person could sing “as intricately as a lady without sounding thin”, “cover any mood”, “versatility odey perfect example Rafi”. Yesu said most important is the comfort level over ranges which makes you feel God has been partial to Rafi. (But Of course in Rafi’s early career (1950’s) the voice was relatively feeble).
To people exposed to Rafi’s talent, these or any amount of praise can only seem less. I just wish he was alive and you people could get a live chance to hear him. Probably you can get hold of the DD album for the Geet Gaata Chal series where the first four episodes were dedicated to Rafi. Rafi is on camera singing “O Duniya Ke Rakwaaley” and many other songs. If you see and hear the last part you will realize why SPB said “impossible”. I think particularly those people who have talked about scales w.r.t Rafi should see this album. Its a known fact in industry that Rafi ruled high pitch and there is no male singer better in switching notes so easily. There are artists who can go beyond but then they sound strained or they don’t have pleasant voices when they venture into those territories.
Many singers of today are his compulsive followers. But they end up inheriting only part of his quality. Md. Aziz ended up with a sad voice. Mahendra Kapoor with a thick nasal voice. Anwar with a nasal voice. Sonu Nigam with a feminine voice. Rafi neither had a soft voice nor a heavy (bass) voice he had a good voice. Importantly did not strain at high notes, and voice if at all only became better at higher notes. If you see him singing it will remind you of Janaki. However diff the song is or the note is he will be smiling and singing. It is unthinkable that he cannot sing something.
There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo” song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect. There are lot of other songs of SPB where this great singer has played with songs in total control. You will find most south Indian singers who have had a good exposure say that it is beneficial to learn Hindustani as it gives better breath control and improves expression.
Rafi was not only able to glide over a song, the important thing was that he could express each word/sound when singing. It is one thing to hold your breath, start and reach a crescendo (high note), as like in “Shankara”, “Anbey (Yennai kaan villaye)” it is different ballgame if you have to do it from low notes or suddenly switch notes. With practice the former can be done, latter requires a special gift. Rafi had a natural ability to do the latter. In “Tum joh mil gaye ho” there is such a transition in the “karwaan mil gaya” part. I have never seen anyone do justice to most of his songs in my life time. In “parda hai parda” quawaali the similar part is “kar doon to, Akbar mera naam”. In fact most of his songs will have these specialty as it was his natural ability to sing freely in a wide range at the same time giving that extra expression.
Whereas SPB takes us to heavens with “Idu oru pon maali”,”Ilaya nila” “bisiladarenu”(kannada), when he sings Rafi’s song it lacks the punch or expression, though it has the bass. But at least most agree that SPB does some justice to original, whereas most others murder the original.
One trivial point I would like to add is that singing in Hindi is harder. There are more “JHA”,”CHA”,”HA”,”THA”, “KHA”,”JA”,”FA”. These take away the breath faster. The more expressive you are the more air you are using up. Just singing from Nabhi will not help, your throat also needs to do a lot, for singing in Hindi, Bengali etc. SPB makes you fall in love with his south Indian songs but same cannot be said about his Hindi songs. If you just glide through words having these sounds, you will never be expressive. Doing this as well as reaching high notes is not easy. Rafi had this gift and that’s why it is difficult to imagine anyone else in his shoes. Song “Chalkaaye jaam” has so much expression that it is unthinkable how anyone can sing it. When Rafi switches to a high note with “Mitwaa” in the song “Chaahunga mein tughey” you cannot replicate it with bass. Most others will sound as if they are shouting in such cases. That man’s throat had the ability to freely sing at such levels.
Versatility is not just the ability to sing in various styles, more important is how good you are singing in those styles. You have lot of Ghazal singers today but when Rafi sings a Ghazal you will sit up and take notice. You don’t have to be part of the Ghazal listeners crowd. This is one important aspect. Whatever style you sing you should be able to pull the common man to listen and not just a particular crowd. Pick “parda hai parda” or any qawalli and it will stand tall among other qawalli’s.
Variety is amazing :
songs of Guru Dutt’s Khagaz key phool or songs like abhi naa jao chod key, Aaja teri yaad aayi, Aaj kal mein dhal gaya, Aaj kal terey merey pyaar, Aasmaan sey aaya farishta, Dil ney pyaar kiya hai, Deewana mujh saa nahi, Din dhal jaaye, Duniya paagal hai, Jaane walon jara, Dil joh na kaha saka, Dil key jharokon mein, Dil kaa bhavar, Chalkey teri aakkhon sey, Kar chaley hum fida, khilona jaan kar tum, Woh jab yaad aay, Woh hain jara khafa, Vaadian mera daaman, Pathar key sanam, Chaand mera dil, Main zindagi kaa saath, Mainey poocha chaand sey, sun sun jaalima, Koi jab raah na paay, hum to chaley pardes, badan pey sitaarey, laal chadi maidaan, Tum jo mil gaye, O meri shaahey, Sau baar janam lengey, Tum mujhey yoon bhula, Tumney mujhey dekha, Terey merey sapney, Tumny pukaara hum chaley aay
Name a situation/mood and Rafi’s song will be there on the top.
Swami
post 980 and others of rafi lovers………….
between the lines there are bengalees who boast of having the entire collection of mohd rafi in west bengal. and, the bengalees waited in strength to hear mohd rafi at the calcutta stadium – in the wee hours of a musical morning.
classical singers are a failure in hfm and hence they boast that they are “puritans” not caring to have any links with film music. only k.j.yesudas stands out for he is a master in classica carnatic music and very popular as a singer in the south indian languages.
i know of some ustads who came to be used in the hindi films by naushaad saaheb but failed. i also know of a “ustad” who as soon as a singer does well in hfm , visits his house and start giving instructions re : his singing. then, h e will claim that this singer is his “desciple”.
I am wary of classical singers who if given a chance will turn the normal song in to a classical song on our stage. the singer will also badmouth every other singer. we are scary of this breed.
clasical students of music must “never” cross their music borders as they tend to get duly confused.
we have seen this in the above discussions .
binu nair. rafi foundation. binus2000@hotmail.com
Dear Surajit Bose,
The argument that because Rafi Sahaab was a Muslim he could sing better ghazals, qawwaalis, etc., does not hold water. If you hear Urdu from Muslims coming from different states in India and the Provinces in Pakistan you will know how different is their diction. Rafi Sahaab’s mother tongue was Punjabi and it is natural to infer that he had to face the same difficulties to surmount as any other singer in the field of diction. Playback singers such as Lata, though a Hindu and who had the Marathi/Konkani background, too had to correct her Urdu diction in the early part of her carrier and had a Maulana to teach her the language.
The fact is that during those golden decades of the Thirties, Forties and even the Fifties, proper Urdu diction was a must since the Urdu language was at its zenith in India and in most of the films the language was certified by the censor as “Urduâ€. Haven’t you heard Sohrab Modi (a Parsi) rendering thunderous Urdu dialogues and oration in so many of the old movies? Or Munshi Prem Chand, Kishen Chander, Rajinder Singh Bedi et all writing Urdu novels? Naturally, the song writers had to know Urdu too for penning the songs. These song writers were not confined to some of those names you have given above. Have you forgotten Shailendra, Rajinder Kishan, Qamar Jalalabadi and so many other Hindu lyricists? Many non-muslims, especially from the film fraternity, knew fluent Urdu. Even the South Indians who wanted to make a name in Bollywood had to know how to pronounce the language. In short, the Urdu language is not the prerogative of any religion.
Again, you’re wrong in assuming that Kishore Kumar never had the language advantage. You surely know that he was born in Khandwa. Now this town is located in south-western Madhya Pradesh (MP) state, and MP’s state language is Hindi the sister language of Urdu. Not to speak of his early Bollywood connections in the Forties when his elder brother, Ashok Kumar, was the superstar of the time. Have you forgotten the debut urdu song rendered by KK, a la Saigal style: “Marne ki Duaayen kyun Maange?†Therefore, your statement that Rafi Sahaab had the natural advantage over KK in matter of Urdu rendition also is without any substance.
If you think that only Lata Mangeshkar and K.L. Saigal come close to divinity, then it’s your choice. But then remember what these singers had to say of Rafi: K.L. Saigal had blessed the young Rafi when he was in his early teens (and not any other playback singer that time) and Lata Mangeshkar herself had admitted in her Sharadhaanjali that not for a thousand years such a singer as Rafi is born.
Dear Dhani Ramji and P.Haldar ji,
I must salute you guys for your experience and wonderful analysis and the way you put them across in your postings.
I would like to learn more from your writings so please keep up the good work.Your anecdotes are particularly enlightening.
The very mention of those Rafi gems bring tears in my eyes just remembering the rendition of those songs.I feel enthralled and elevated and brings back all those wonderful memories of the golden age of hfm which are seemingly being forgotten in the midst of the noise that we now know as hfm.
The more I hear rafi saab the more I feel Godliness around.We all are humble bhakt’s of this divine voice.
CHeers,
Ponnaps
Dear Bose sahib
we don’t doubt your credentials.We have no quarrel with your technical analses also.The only problem is that your are using technical facade in order to quite palpably denigrate rafi sahib.Your biases are writ large.what is the occasion to say at all that rafi knew urdu.If he did that that was an asset which he used to give us wonderful songs.After all to attain heights we need some background.
in your analysis you bring in all sorts of singers and want rafi to measure up to them.It is rafi versus
1 bade ghulam ali
2 sehgal
3 manna dey
4 lata
5 asha
6 everybody
that is what rafi is :all singers rolled into one.that is why he is the greatest of all.
In passing,according to an Indian Express headline,Parvez Musharraf,former President of Pakistan,listened to
rafi songs a day after his resignation.His favourite rafi song is chal ud ja re puncchi.
Pakistan has had some of the finest singers in both male and female categories.Nusrat fateh ali is the current rage.Mehadi Hassan and ghulam ali have gained international renown as ghazal singers?Then why is it that a top Pakistani leader turns to rafi in moments of crisis to rest and relax?any reactions and fulminations from the detractors of rafi?
Bose Saab,
You have written that only Lataji and Saigal Saab can be considered as GOD. Well, I am also a fan of Saigal but can we imagine saigal singing classical or qawali or songs at very high pitch which Rafi regularly did.
Mohammed Rafi Saheb is and always will be beyond comparison. It is indeed very sad that people try make these comparisons with the inimitable Mohd Rafi the anmol bharat ratna.
Mohammed Rafi the anmol bharat ratna is and always will be beyond comparison. It is indeed very sad that people try to make comparisons with the inimitable.
Ok, this is in reply to some of the rejoinders to my posts.
firstly, when i evaluate rafi’s classical singing prowess i am only looking at rafi’s classical prowess from a playback singing point of view. and even here, rafi is found lacking. he is good enough to not sound like a novice, as far as the common man is concerned, but he lacks the virtuosity to bring out the essence of a classical composition. And i am not even talking about crisp or complex taankari.
since most rafi fans like to boast of his classical prowess, i feel that this weakness must be highlighted. when i do that, people come back to me asking me not to look at “fully classical” elements or not to compare rafi with “real classical” singers.
well, if you push a song as an exponent of classical music, then you must also accept any comparisions that will be made against other classical artists. if you wish that such a comparision is unfair, then please do not try to push such songs as classical examples.
yes, “Madhuban mein radhika naache re …” is a good, nice song as long you don’t try to bring in the classical element into it. the truth is rafi utterly failed to bring out the essence of raaga hameer. he managed to hold the song together fairly well.
regarding “man tarpat hari darshan …”, i know of many singers fully immersed in classical singing who point out several areas where rafi fluffed. as an example, in one of the antaras that goes ” tumhare dwAar khaDa ek Jogi …”, he shoots off like a rocket near “dwAar” when he should have taken it more slowly. the effect is jarring, if you are really aware of the intricacies of the song-raaga stucture. When he sings ” sab guni.jaane pe”, he goes back into his head voice but the transition is not very smooth and it gives the impression that he is shouting. the same can be said for “O duniya ke rakhwaale” and other songs of “Mughal-e-azam” and “Chengiz Khan”.
Most of rafi’s classical compositions would probably been better executed by Manna Dey. But Manna Dey’s biggest problem was his voice was not as young and soothing as rafi’s. Manna Dey’s voice was never soft and young enough to be in popular demand as a hero’s voice.
And please don’t compare lata-rafi duets to evaluate lata’s singing prowess. If a female singer is made to sing at typical male keys, she is at a major handicap. Rafi handling a given high note better than lata should be way above par for the course. I have far more faith in the classical approach to assigning comfort ranges than on filmy composers who arbitrarily make Lata sing in Rafi’s pitch and then make her climb all the way to the topmost pitch.
to those of you who like to point out that kk was never used in the 1950’s and 1960’s by MD’s like roshan, OPN, SJ, Naushad etc. and only by mediocre MD’s like RDB, kalyanji anandji, bappi lahiri etc., i can use reverse logic and say that rafi needed such genius MD’s to make him popular while kk was so good that he even made talentless MD’s like rajesh roshan successful.
c ramachandra, anil biswas, khemchand prakash, husnlal bhagatram etc. rarely used rafi, and i could use that as an example of rafi’s weakness.
the only advantage that rafi had over kk in pure technical terms is that he took just about enough classical training to help him learn the “contours” or “pronounciation” of a semi-classical song better than kk. that in itself, IMO, is not enough to classify rafi as superior to kk. it is because of this reason AND that his voice suited most heroes of the times that rafi was given precedence over other singers.
otherwise, even mukesh sang more songs than kk during the ’50’s and ’60’s including classical songs like “Matwaali naar thumak thumak …” etc. does that mean mukesh is a more accomplished singer than kk ?
it is one thing if you like rafi and listen to him alone, but it is quite another if you use certain kinds of songs as examples without truly understanding the intricacies involved in such compositions.
A lot is being written about Rafi’s ability to render at high pitch ( ~ 2.5 octave range).. I think it is being overemphasized unnecessarily. With due regards (or lack of it), Narendra Chanchal, AR Rahman and Himesh Reshammiya can also render songs at high pitch… Rafi’s had lot of additional qualities/attributes:
1. Ability to make smooth transitions (drop to a low pitch immediately)
Quotes on #1:
Asha Bhosle “His greatest ability was that he could sing at a high pitch and shift to a low pitch immediately. He could manage that very well.”
A.R. Rahman:” I am always on the lookout for new talent. These days I am looking for a good male voice. Like Rafi, not ‘roughy’(laughs). Someone who can switch octaves with that ease.”
2. Ability to retain sweetness at very high pitch
Quote on #2:
Lata Mangeskar: “Unke awaaz mein ek namrata the. Even in high pitched songs he had a namrata about it”
3. Ability to sing from the navel and still sound sweet
Quote on #3
Anandji: “He would sing from the naabhi (navel) which gave his singing a depth and punch without being loud. This is where his clones failed — they would shout while imitating a song like Yahoo!”
Mr Bose is also deceived by #3. It seems like Rafi is yelling, but he is not (as clearly evident from his live performance in youtube, he is as cool as ice at that pitch with no facial change at all). Most of his clones think they can imitate him but they end up singing from the throat not from the navel.
Re. Post 980: Dear Mr. Haldar, the fault is NOT in the song ” Man Tarapat….”, but it is in Mr. Surajit A. Bose. He has no knowledge of good and pure music.
last monday (18th) i went to pune for a book launch where speakers after speakers were talking of the “greatness” of mohd rafi and one of the speakers stole my heart.
he said : that he was fortunate to have attended a recording of rafi saaheb and he was astonished by the experience.
he said : rafi stood in the glass room before the microphones and was singing the lyrics without any movement of the body . the song was from the movie : jab jab phool khile, the number being : uf uf khuda, humko tumse pyaar aaya, pyaar aay…..
the speaker said : aaila and said in chaste marathi; how singers would jump, throw up their hands and move their body while singing this number. but, rafi was cool and this mesmerised him about rafi – forever.
mohd rafi was born for the hindi film industry and no rafi will perhaps be born again – this is what many people really say.
i for one enjoy his songs for they touch your hearts directly – all of them. like me there are millions and millions of indians and non-indians.
and after a year with the rafi foundation and musical events , we never ask whether one is a rafi fan – especially after a person told me : who will not like rafi’s songs?
binu nair, rafi foundation, mumbai.
surajit bose : ur ears are partial and u are prejudiced ; that’s the twin problem with you. not mohd rafi’s singing by any chance.
the world loves lata and rafi. but you will like only lata and saighal saaheb and they are the gods for you.
the third one is that you want to boldly show your prejudices in the mohdrafi dot com.
mohd rafi fans are “never” amused – by any chance.
binu nair, mumbai.
When it comes to a melodious voice, it’s one and only one Mohd. Rafi Saheb. KK’s voice had no melody plus he had a hoarse voice which is true. Please listen to KKs song in Aap Aaye Bahar Aayee when he tries to yell the word “Kaisa”…. it’s hilarious. So, no one can be compared to Rafi Saheb, not even Lata (where is she now? Maybe her lean phase).
Post 978: Music directors like Anil Biswas, C Ramchandra, Salil Chowdhary were never on top, they rarely used Rafi Saheb. It was their misfortune that they did not use Rafi Saheb.
the reason I bring this up is to dispel Mr Bose’s attempts to propagate a myth about Rafi sahabs classical skills by nitpicking on certain instances in certain songs from the mindboggling body of work of Rafi sahab which in itself is unfair in an overall analysis.The analysis is based on a very narrow view of classical singing in itself instead of taking a holistic view of classical singing in the world of hfm..
Rafi sahab is indeed the most complete singer of classical numbers in hfm and has proved it beyond debate by his work..mere propaganda by Mr.Bose will not change things..
i have microscopically examined the songs from Rani Roopmati that MR.Bose quotes and find many an instance where the other classical singer is falling short in diction and effect..this is something Rafi saab was superlative in ie maintaining the diction and throw of words to emphasise the meaning all the while falling within the rigid boundaries set by classical music…in one stanza in order to retain his classical bearings the other singer even fails to complete the pronunciation of certain words which is a strict no-no in hfm..one could observe this shortcoming in many a classical delivery and evn by the most accomplished of classical singers but this is unacceptable in hfm(maybe its ok after the late 1970s when the music started overpowering the singer/lyrics)…one would never find such a discrepancy in any of the 1000s of songs sung by Rafi saab…also looking at the setting of the song it looks like a guru-shishya scene where Rafi saabs voice is that of the shishya and I can draw my own inferences from that in the context of the movie ofcourse which Mr bose has cleverly avoided..
Mr Bose needs to realise this is abt. classical singing in hfm and not about classical singing in a concert or competition..all arguments and cases need to be put forward in this context and his failure to do so is the reason why I call his postings false propaganda..
we have already established that talking abt classical capabilities is just a facade Mr Bose employs to bring in his own agenda of fallacy to promote his regional favorite kk(what a joke!).
talking of diction and throw,have you noticed why no pure classical singer ever makes it big in hfm?its because of the lack of diction,emotion,tonal quality(suited for hfm) and an inability to bring out the meaning of those special words which are the char chand of the lyrics.All this along with the association of the song to the actor emoting it,was the hallmark of Rafi saabs singing and no other singer even comes anywhere close to bringing out all these qualities while still ensuring the rules of the classical base are not violated…and this you can see consistantly for more than over 4 decades of work,over varying genres,different actors and their different histrionics,changing tastes of the listener and changing trends..not to mention bucking the inherent favoritism and regional bias prevalent..
this is what makes Rafi saab incomparable and his achievements something other singers can only dream of emulating..
ofcourse there are some fanatics who like to take the shortcut to ensure their idols reach that stature by indulging in the comparison business and Im glad they have decided to stop spreading their false propaganda and desecrating this forum…
Folks,I picked up this analysis from the RMIM group that MR.Bose mentions abt.Thought it was an interesting observation from the poster.
this is another facet to this comparison business and shud bring things into perpective,
Copied and Pasted below :
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BTW, have you guys noticed a trend here:
When we talk about Rafi’s semi-classical songs, people point out classical
giants such as Bhimsen Joshi etc. When Rafi’s GHazals are mentioned, Habib
Wali Mohammed is cited. When his devotional songs are mentioned, another
non-filmi singer is compared…. a person who can be compared with so many
greats has to have a SOLID range! And mind you none of these non-film
personalities would’ve survived in the film industry. That is where the
greatness of Rafi lies. He was the most versatile singer. You could depend on
him to go from “Madhuban me radhika naache re…” to “Sar jo tera chakraae…”
from “Kabhi KHud pe kabhi haalat pe rona aaya…” to “Ye chand sa roshan
chehra….” and from “Na to kaarwaan ki talaash hai…” to “Man tadapat Hari
darshan ko aaj…” and from “Kar chale hum fida jaan-o-tan saathio…” to
“Jungal me mor naacha kisine na dekha…”. And he was not merely a jack of
all trades. He excelled in each and every trade within the realm of filmdom.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)…. and a RAFIan
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Mohd Rafi was muslim because of that be singed qawwali’s and ghazals better than KK!!!Is a great joke?!!!!!!what about bhajans?manan Dey and Lata Ji they are not muslim but they can sing qawwali’s and ghazals ..
Dearest Bose i want say a a story once I asked Pakistan friend do u like Mohd Rafi?the answer was no I asked him why?he said that because Mohd rafi was Pakistan and he went to India!!!!!!!!!!!do you think the same way? Mohd rafi was more Indian than you and anyone else jest listen to song in flim Johar in Kashmir
Anil Biswas was one top in 1940′ he liked Talat Ji more than Mohd Rafi that is true but that not mean that Talat Ji is better singer than Mohd Rafi
,Anil Biswas, in a radio interview in the 1960’s, said that KK was the most gifted male singer he worked with. And Anil Biswas was reportedly the hardest taskmaster among all the MD’s.â€than why he use KK only for two flims only kk singed only 6 songs for him and Mohd Rafi singed around 12 songs for him and when Mohd Rafi was at the top in 1958 Anil Biswas came to Mohd Rafi to sing for him not to KK,
Dear Kk was good singer the problem is with you Kk fans(i am also KK fan as he an actor)they want compare him with Mohd Rafi why they don’t want compare him with Lata Ji or Mannay Day or Makesk Ji,Why Lata ji fans also wants to compare he with Mohd rafi not with KK?why KK toke Rs 1 less than Lata Ji?!!!!
Ref Post 977:
Dhani Ram, a fantastic piece of writing my friend, keep up the excellent work.
This is the perfect reply to all those ignorant people out there who compare any singer (inlcuding KK) to ‘Saatwan Sur’ Rafi. Rafi was and is the first and last word in singing.
Sir, if you don’t mind, please give Binu-ji your email contact details, and I will ask him for them. I would like to discuss music matters with you offline.
Dear fellow Rafi lovers:
Let’s simply ignore these posts. Even I was taken for a ride, till I realised which way things are going.
If several years of training in Hindustani music leads people to wrong conclusions, I suspect there is something wrong somewhere.. for half-a-century of extensive training and research by a stalwart (KJ Yesudas sir) affirmed rather than diluted his view of Rafisahab as the ultimate in singing (which includes semi-classical singing too). Then there is this other maestro from the south Illyaraja who says ‘Rafi is Rafi’.
At the same time I agree that Rafisahab’s prowess in the hard-core classical stuff (as dictinct from semi-classicals) is limited, simply because he wasn’t trained for the job and let me tell you that a greater mastery of classical music would have made Rafisahab a lesser play-back/ light music singer.
ref post 949:
dear surajit, I read your post several times, each time with more and more disbelief. Over the years, I have heard kishore fans say a lot of things, but I’ve never heard anyone say anything derogatory about “man tadpat hari darshan ko aaj” or “madhuban mein radhika nache re”. They are part of our national treasure. From the first time I heard “man tadpat” as a kid to this day, I’ve never found any fault with that song. It enjoys such an exalted status in Indian music that there is no need for me to say anything about the song. But it is a safe bet to say that 100 years from now, this song will continue to be played at temples across India. Shakeel wrote this song in Sanskritized Hindi, something you’d admit that Rafi wouldn’t have been proficient in. Yet, can you find a single Hindu singer who would be able to enunciate those two words “Hari Om” better than Rafi? If you find, let me know. And, for your information, Rafi’s native language was Punjabi, not Urdu, though he could read and write in the Urdu script. In undivided India, urdu was a language used regularly in Lucknow and surrounding areas. In that era, most Hindus (especially the UP Kayasthas) of that area knew that language quite well.
I’d like to share an email that a friend of mine, also a student of classical music like you, had written to me last year on the shakeel-naushad-rafi combine:
“Soumen has presented me with a 4-CD collectors’ pack of 70-odd songs of Naushad. It is titled ‘Remembering Naushad’, and comes with a write up on the man and some rare photographs. One shows him greeting Raichand Boral and another of him in the company of Jaikishen and OP, all three in jacket and tie. Yesterday evening I went back 30 years in time. Not that I haven’t heard Naushad in between, but there were a few songs that I heard after a very long time. One such was ‘Aaj ki raat mere dil ki salami lele’ and another ‘Koi sagar dil ko behlata nahin’. The latter was a favourite with me even when in my youth I was a die-hard SD-Kishore fan. I’d like to believe that my musical taste and sense have mellowed, matured and become more refined since then. It may or may not have, but yesterday I played ‘Koi sagar’ no less than 3 times in succession and enjoyed it more with every hearing. In fact, if someone were to tell me that, barring ‘Hari Om’, it is the best song to come out of the Naushad-Rafi encounter, I should very likely stop to wonder if he might not actually be right. I say this with full realisation of the existence of the ‘Madhuban mein Radhikas’, the ‘Mere mehboobs’ and the ‘Duniya ke rakhwales.’ It is based on Raga Kalavati (origin, Carnatic), which is of a somewhat frivolous temper… It is amazing how Naushad could conceive it to be capable also of conveying a mood of gloom and pathos. I heard the second antara, ‘Zindagi ke aine ko tod do, is mein ab kuch bhi nazar ata nahin’ and wondered if Shakeel had written better lines in his life. But I have heard very few Rafi fans speak of this song as one of his best. I have never been able to figure out why.”
That is the kind of respect that even a genuine kishore fan has to offer for such songs. Bengalis are earning a bad name for the kind of comments that seemingly educated people like you are making. Please keep in mind that the person you are commenting on was a darling of some of the greatest musical figures of New Theatres, Calcutta — that includes giants like R. C. Boral, K. C. Dey and K. L. Saigal. Get a copy of Manna Dey’s autobiography; there’s a picture of k. c. dey (kana keshto) looking in the direction of rafi with utmost fondness — though he couldn’t see in reality — realising the arrival of a genius on the music horizon. I don’t know whether you know who Pt. Gyan Prakash Ghosh is; if you ever heard him commenting on Rafi, then you’d have known what he thought of him. People like you are small fry, no matter how many years of classical training you have had.
Mr. Dhani Ram has discussed the technicalities of the “man tadpat” song in detail, but let me comment on another aspect of this beautiful bhajan (in my opinion, the greatest bhajan of all time). Rafi’s voice has three dimensions: shakti, bhakti and masti. In this song, he pours in so much bhakti that it could turn a non-believer into a believer. Imagine kishore singing this song; bhakti would immediately go out of the window.
In the classical dimension, most music lovers consider lata, manna and asha to be rafi’s peers; I don’t know of a single rafian who would even consider kishore in this category. He definitely was a great singer with unique qualities, but singing classical songs was not his forte. I am not talking about simple raag-based tunes, some of which he has sung very well. But I am talking about what is usually implied by classical songs in films — a good example is “laga chunri mein daag”. How many songs does kishore have in that genre? Except for rd, who continued to display that rare adamant streak, not a single md of repute used kishore for any song that can be really called classical. Condider s. d. burman, whose fondness for kishore is well known. Why did he turn to rafi to show his ustadi on ashok kumar in “nache man mora” when the younger brother was available? Because the old man knew that kishore would have to be hospitalized the following morning. On the shakti axis, let me point to a priceless composition by dada’s assistant jaidev, ab koi gulshan na ujde ab watan azad hai:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_5o63j3c6c
This is called “strength”, not yelling. Lata’s and Manna’s voices would not be able to retain their strength at the high notes. And Kishore would have taken the first train back to Khandwa if he were asked to sing this song (no offence meant).
And this is a warning to future intruders to this site. If you want to sing in praise of hari or krishna, listen to rafi’s bhajans; no mortal would be able to come anywhere near him.
rafi saab, kaise kategi zindagi tere bagair tere bagair… Listen to this unreleased song composed by madan mohan and ask yourself, has there been anyone like him?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCqjXa39RKE
dear bose ref mail 963,you could not upgrade kk,so trying to downgrade rafi saab,what a pity ,withdrwaing,because the battle was lost before it began,
Rafi saab is the undisputed leader,even in seventies,the entire industry could not stop the colossous to return back to the throne
By the way you have not responded to my earlier mail where was kk from 1950-1970 ( i have changed the period from 1955 to 1950 ).
My one more advise please train yourself listening to rafi saab `s classical songs.
Ref Post 963:
“Anil Biswas, in a radio interview in the 1960’s, said that KK was the most gifted male singer he worked with. And Anil Biswas was reportedly the hardest taskmaster among all the MD’s.”
Which is why KK is no where when it comes to singing qawwali’s, ghazals, classical songs, bhajans, and various other genres. If he was so gifted, he would have been the top most male singer, as well as covered these genres with ease. Comments like these (especially from MD’s who went into oblivion soon) hold no water.
KK was never in the same league as Rafi, even SDB (who’s comments I’d take more seriously) told KK that, and even KK accepted this fact. The majority also are of the view that Rafi is the greatest male singer, far ahead of all others.
KK’s range was no where near Rafi’s, even if you account for the circus act of yodelling (which you brought up).
Ofcourse one can say Rafi was better than all, there are far too many countless aspects of his brilliance that other singers lack.
Dear Bose Sahib
I am afraid,sir,that you are putting a veneer of technicality over what you believe instinctively where your prejudices and biases are clearly pop out.
Let me ask a simple question:Why wasn’t Man mora bawra,a raag based song and filmed on Kishore,given to Kishore?
You say that Lata is superior to Rafi in classical songs.How is Lata superior in Peehu Peehu Bole Koyalia?
What do you think of switching of scales in Zulf lehrai teri aur meiri taqdeer bani? Any comparable Kishore song?
A very large number of Rafi songs begin with alaap which is often the most beautiful part of the song.Alaap is a part of classical singing.Any examples from Kishore oevre?
In duets with Lata and Asha,Rafi always matches note with note.Why is Kishore deficient? Ramayya vasta vayya begins with a beautiful taan by Rafi.In Dayya re dayya laaj mohe laage,otherwise sung entirely by Asha,the most beautiful part is Rafi’s aa aa aa aa hai.This kind of flow is seen in many Rafi songs as in Asha and Lata songs.Where does kishore stand in this?
Your citing yodelling to make Kishore compete with Rafi is utter frivolity.
Why does Kishore rush through and even miss notes?Lacking free flow unlike Rafi he sings with jerks.While Rafi sings each word with the emphasis,emotion and modulation required to create the desired effect,why doesn’t Kishore have the staying and stabilising power.
You say that unlike Rafi Kishore wisely kept away from classical singing.Why didn’t he equally wisely stay away from romantic singing?His voice was rough and heavy and was unsuitable for soft romantic songs.
Why is it that Meire naina sawan bhadon is sung better by Lata and Hamein tumse pyar kitna yeh hum naheen jaante better by Parveen Sultana?Because both Lata and Parveen have greater flexibility and wider modulations,the qualities that Rafi demonstrates amply and Kishore is deficient in.
True debate is not between Rafi and Kishore but between Rafi and Lata.And there are those who would say that they are well matched but Rafi has an edge.I am one of them.Just compare Rafi Lata parallel songs and duets.To cite some.Dil beqraar sa hai.Rafi modulates and emotes better.Dil jo na keh saka.Rafi outstrips Lata.Tum hi tum ho meire jeevan mein phool hee phool hain jaise chaman mein.Lata is sweet but mostly flat and mechanical.Rafi conveys right modulations and emotions.Door basa lein dil ki jannat:Rafi outclasses Lata because of his better base and volume.The same in Laagi chhoote na ab to sanam and teire bina soone nain hamaare.And scores of other songs.
Rafi is excellent at lower pitch.Listen to Mujhe le chalo aaj phir us gali mein and jinhein naaz hai Hind par voh kahaan hain.At lower pitch Kishore quite often lapses into bleating.
Rafi’s base was classical and he was steeped in the musical traditions of our country.His forte was ghazal and folk with a strong input from qawwali.What were Kishore’s musical roots?Or was he only a wild bull who took the Bollywood by storm in its stage of decline?
Why is it that only Lata and Rafi have matching repertoire and not Lata and Kishore?
Mr Bose,with due apologies,you are a Kishore fanatic and you give your biases a technical veneer to overawe the lovers of other singers.Your finding excuses and alibis for Kishore’s weaknesses and hurling Rafi’s imagined flaws into the faces of Rafi fans is not going to cut any ice.
Hi everybody,
I think it’s best that we stop continuing this discussion . This being a site dedicated to rafi, i understand the love and affection flowing through. I admit i made the mistake of bringing up this comparision.
However, it just irks me when people use “semi-classical songs” as a trump card to prove his superiority over KK. As a student of hindustani classical music for over 12 years, i am not being rude when i say that rafi’s capabilities in semi-classical songs is very mediocre.
And this has nothing to do with voice or tonal quality etc. Rafi had a great voice, excellent tonal quality, diction, emotions, modulation etc., but singing semi-classical songs were not his cup of tea. If you, as rafi fans, disagree with me on this point, that’s fine. i will not argue further.
I just ask all the classically knowledgeable fans to listen to “baaT chalat na_ii chunarii ra.ng Daarii†from “Rani Roopmati” (you can find it on youtube) and tell me what you think about rafi’s classical prowess. Or listen to “u.D jaa bha.nvar†from the same movie and compare it to Manna Dey’s version.
As much as people tend to push “Baiju Bawra”‘s songs as an exhibition of rafi’s classical abilities, for a listener who is tuned to true classical music, it is easy to see that rafi’s rendition was decidedly average. you can take my statement any way you want.
to conclude, i maintain that rafi was a great singer of many kinds of songs, but semi-classical songs were not his strength. he was not comfortable with those songs.
regarding singing ghazals, qawwalis etc., the answer is very simple. rafi was very well-versed in urdu and farsi. His being a muslim helped him a lot by making him very proficient in these languages and words. And most of the song writers in those days (Majrooh Sultanpuri, Shakeel Badayuni, Mehdi Ali Khan, Sahir Ludhianvi, Hasrat Jaipuri) were urdu poets. So it was very easy for rafi to pronounce the words and sentences correctly. he had a natural advantage. this is something that kk never had.
rafi was a great singer, but he was not a god. no singer is perfect. actually, the only singers that come closest to divinity were lata mangeshkar and k l saigal. the rest, inlcuding rafi, kk, manna dey etc. were all great singers, but below these two.
that being said, i will now withdraw from posting here.
Regarding post 966, Binu Nair ji,
It is not surprising that, as a rafi fan, you would feel that way. But, given the success and the status this song (and also, “Kuch to log kahenge”) and movie achieved, i can’t help but disagree with you.
nobody, IMO, nobody but KK could’ve rendered the song the way it was done. The pathos and loneliness that KK expressed in this song was exemplary
Naushand Ali was great without KK and OPN was great without Lata Ji but there is no one great without Mohd Rafi,when people speak about good music they say from when Mohd rafi start singing and the end was when Mohd Rafi left us…………
Dear Surajit A. Bose plz don’t compare KK with Mohd Rafi,KK was a good singer and please read what people who know about music what they said about Mohd Rafi,do u know who was Madan Mohan,OPN,Naushand Ali,Lata Ji and many more about Mohd Rafi?who are you and me to compare some one with Mohd Rafi when man like Madan Mohan said that he should’t be pay when mohd Rafi sing from him,Opn there was no opn if there was no Mohd Rafi…………………….Raj Kapoor who use mohd Rafi so less but he said that Mohd Rafi is the king without crown…………
the problem with kk fans is that by comparing with the ultimate ,they upgrade kk.
Mr Bose’s post 949 was expected to disturb most of Rafi saheb fans and please Kishore da fans. But for some of us who are fans of both, with preference for Rafi Saheb, it is hard to believe that Kishore was better. I however agree with Mr Bose to an extent that there are a few songs where Rafi saheb’s voice squeaks at very high notes – I do not know whether it is delibertate or the MD stretched him too far.
I am not technical at all, but as a music lover when i compare the voice control, sweetness, range and all types of songs, it is impossible to even think any one cmoing close to rafi saheb.
I accept that the quality of Rafi Saheb’s voice had taken a gradual dip after mid sixties and was no where towards 79-80 to near perfect and godly voice of late fifties to mid sixties. Such was the dominance of Rafi Saheb, that before the split with Lata in 63, he sounds far more fluent and melodious in duets with one and only Lata.
May be another veteran on this forum mr haldar could talk about his three dimension study.
I respect Mr Bose’s views, but can not accept by any stretch of imagination that Kishore da, however great he may be, to be better than Rafi Saheb.
i wonder,how some people dare to compare the god of singing with the one who has absolutely nothing or very little to show in various categories of singing such as ghazal,qwalis,semiclassical,bhazaans or patriotic songs.it is the reasons why rafi saab was miles ahead of others in 50s & 60s. however with the advent of 70s the likes of RDB ruled the land & adhunik & popular music came to the fore.rafisaab was undermined & deliberately ignored during this period but again resurfaced & arrieved with a bang till inevitable occured.he was,is & will be remain as a phenomenon for ever!!!
Mr.Bose’s post is nothing but another desperate attempt by a KK fan to bring up the comparisson issue yet again.Mr Bose starts quite condescendingly praising the website and also saying he finds the never-ending debates of who is the greatest singer greatly amusing.
But soon enough his true intentions are exposed when he almost immediately starts pursuing his true cause which he himself mentions as greatly amusing just a little while earlier.
Mr. Bose – this post is about Rafi sahab.You are welcome to appreciate the golden voice like most posters do and also attempt to criticise Rafi sahabs singing though your criticism reeks of bias and is quite unfounded bordering on plain lies with little evidence to substantiate.This again makes us doubt your true intention.I wonder if you even read the original post or just came in to the picture to rake up the comparison issue.
agree you trying to critique Rafi sahabs singing but one cant help but wonder why in Gods good earth would anyone bring in KK into a post regarding classical singing capabilities.Just incredulous!And the kk song you choose to elucidate your points is such pedestrian fare I had to read it twice to believe my eyes.Are you really serious about this or are you a novice in hfm or is this the best u think kk has produced?I can almost see you extolling the classical virtues in eena,meena,deeka next!Or probably this was the build up to introduce the comparison topic into the discussion.
sometime I wonder if kk fans have nothing better to talk about other than the comparison topic.Why cant you spend time and effort in critique/appreciating kk songs instead of wasting it in muddying Rafi waters.Look at the topics in kk forum.All are languishing with no interest and with less that 100 comments while the comparison post on the same forum has 1100+ posts!!Is this the only way you can talk about your idol??
not only kk fans..ever wondered why on almost every other singers forum there exists a thread trying to prove their idol is superior to Rafi saab?On the tfm page you’d find SPB fans trying to prove it and KJY fans doing the same thing.Manna De fans want to prove he his better than Rafi saab and so does kk fans..Interestingly on the thread in the kk forum there were some folks saying Gantasala is a better singer than Rafi saab and this went on for a long while without any mention of kk until a die hard kk fan had to remind everyone that the thread was a Rafi-kk comparison not a Rafi-xxxxxx comparison.This was quite hilarious and I couldnt stop laughing at the stupidity of it all.
question is why always Rafi saab..why no SPB-kk superiority discussion or kk-manna de discussion or any other combination.why why why does everyone want to only compare with Rafi sahab???
all this makes me think that it is in the best selfish interest of the XXXXX fan to indulge in this comparison business so atleast in this way fans can ‘force’ their idol to apparently attain Rafi sahabs stature which is otherwise unacheivable.
Perhaps the answer lies in Manna De’s response to how he would rate all the singers in HFM.He said : From 1 to 10 its Rafi sahab from 11 onwards all others would follow.
Finally.I would urge felllow Rafians not to get sucked into this kind of propaganda discussions by non-rafians.Lets enjoi what Rafi sahab has given us,let us get drenched in Rafi rain,get intoxicated in Rafi madira.Its their loss if they have failed to appreciate the finer aspects of Rafi sahabs singing.
Responding to xxxx fans’ propaganda is just doing them a favor as explained earlier.lets not break our heads over it.
xxx, Venkadri:
How can you talk of Rafi-Chitragupta without mentioning the Vaasna song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyobVfNiVXs
I listen to this song whenever I am in the “mood”….No song goes better with wine and solitude than this one..However, for this song, I would give Sahir as much credit as Rafi..
Surajit wrote:
“‘when Rafi hits that high Madhyam: “sun more vyaakul man†or “sab guNiijana peâ€, it is clear that Rafi is yelling and he is outside his comfort zone”…
-Rafi was never out of his comfort zone..Leave Rafi, I know several people who can sing that part…The difficult part is exactly the one which you think was a blemish..That was the slight leak in voice at high pitch which was delivered on purpose.
You definitely missed this DELIBERATE falsetto in vyaakul and guNiijana in this song..That was done advertently just to convey the feeling of devout lamentation.. This is the “liberty” that differentiates film music from pure classical types..
I recently heard a song by Ustaad Rashid Khan for the film “Jab We Met”..Perfect rendition, but the song was just “dead” for me (btw, I am a big fan of Ustaad Rashid Khan)… Rafi was an epitome of musical purity rightly blended with cinematic liberties..
Commenting on post 949, it is very sad to see that KK’s fans have such poor knowledge of music. They never understood KK properly what can one expect from them.
Shri bose: I believe two songs “if” sung by mohd rafi would have glorified them. one is the number : chingari koi badkhe (very hoarse voice) and the next kabhi kabhi mere man me (very hoarse voice – again).
these two songs rightly belonged to rafi saaheb and if sung by him would have turned to “pure gold” like the songs of film guide.
the composers erred here its felt as they reasons other than music in their minds when finalising the songs.
in this regard, laxmikant and pyare bhai’s musical sense about choice of singers has to be complimented.
i do not expect mr bose to concur with my viewpoint – by any chance.
binu nair
regarding post 957,
sir, please take a bow. i wouldn’t dream of disputing your faith in rafi as the greatest singer who ever lived.
RMIM has sadly become a playground for fighting these days, but 10-15 yrs back when there were far fewer posters around, the quality and dignity was commendable. Just read posts by Sanjeev Ramabhadran, Chetan Vinchi, Rajan Parrikar, your’s truly etc. Many interesting debates and illuminating points were brought forth.
regarding post 956
Sir, while i respect your appreciation of rafi’s talents, and your interest in continuing the lines of discussion i had put forth, we disagree on many points.
firstly, to really judge rafi’s classical prowess, just listen to “baaT chalat na_ii chunarii ra.ng Daarii” from Rani Rupmati, a duet with Krishnarao Chonkar. Or to “u.D jaa bha.nvar” from the same movie (incidentally, Manna dey easily outdid rafi in this song, and yet Lata’s tandem “aajaa bha.nvar, suunii Dagar, suunaa hai ghar, aajaa” from the same movie just sweeps past both Manna Dey’s and Rafi’s versions).
As far as “Madhuban mein Radhika” is concerned, Rafi did fairly well to hold the song together. But he didn’t do the hardest parts of this song (If my memory is correct, Ustad Amir Khan was summoned for the difficult passages) and he missed bringing out the essence of raaga Hameer. I didn’t say that he went off-key or he lost his sur etc. It is with capturing the essenece of the raaga. When you talk about classical virtuosity in a filmy context this is of paramount importance.
The only male film singer who, in my opinion, comes close to having the greatest range and is a truly gifted singer is Saigal. Listen to either “so jaa raajakumaarii” or “ruum jhuum ruum jhuum chaal tihaarii” from Tansen. Saigal fathoms the depths of vocal range that most singers can only dream of.
it’s silly to suggest that rafi can sing upto 3 octaves or 3.5 octaves etc.
only singers I know of who could even reach this range are the pure classical exponents like Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan (who, even in his old age in the ’60’s when most of the recordings were done) who could sing from mandra Sa to ati-taar sa, and some other classical singers.
… continued.
regarding post 954 –
#1 I guess I didn’t make myself clear. What I forgot to add was that it is not necessary that these variations (subtle or not so subtle) should follow any set pattern. That is, a variation doesn’t have to stick to the patterns described by either Hindustani or Carnatic classical music. As an example, let’s take up KK’s ability to yodel.
It is hard for me when people dismiss yodelling just because it doesn’t conform to any set or known classical patterns. When KK yodels, he demonstrates a remarkably high degree of voice control and yet that has nothing to do with classical variations. And that’s what I was talking about.
I never claimed that rafi didn’t achieve mastery and control over sur … just that KK did as well as Rafi in this regard. It’s a different matter that KK demonstrated his improvisations and variations a little differently than Rafi.
#2 KK sang many beautiful songs long before RDB came into the picture. Songs for MD’s like Khemchand Prakash, Anil Biswas, Husnlal Bhagatram, Sajjad Hussain. These are all stalwart MD’s who are so proud that they wouldn’t tolerate anything less than a perfect take. And none of them would compromise on their melody just because they wanted to accomodate KK. Just listen to “HUsn Bhi Hai Udhaas” from “Fareb” or “Aa mohabbat ki basti” from the same movie, or “Jagmag jagmag karta nikla” from “Rimjhim”, or “Woh meri tarf yun” from “Kafila” etc. These were all between 1949-1953 and none of them were by either SDB or RDB. The suppleness which KK displays in his voice and how deftly and switftly he switches across notes is a treat. And believe me, some of the switches are swift and difficult.
Anil Biswas, in a radio interview in the 1960’s, said that KK was the most gifted male singer he worked with. And Anil Biswas was reportedly the hardest taskmaster among all the MD’s.
Regarding Manna Dey, just read what he had to say about KK and Rafi in this interview. The question comes a little deep into the interview:
http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnist1.asp?main_variable=Columnist&file_name=mitra55.txt&writer=MITRA&validit=yes
#3 I meant top rishabh relative to Rafi’s average D# / kaalii do Sha.Dja. It could be that the blame lies with the MD. yet, it’s hard to dismiss the fact that Rafi was shouting.
#4 Keeping aside the number of hits either singer had given out in the ’60’s and ’70’s, both Rafi and KK were at their peak during the ’50’s and ’60’s (till about ’65 for Rafi and about ’70-’71 for KK).
With that in mind, I disagree that age had anything to do with it.
It’s not that “Koi hamdam …” is straight as an arrow. The reason I took those two examples was that KK traversed a range of nearly 2 octaves in that song without ever giving the impression that he was being stretched to the limits of his range. While there were parts of “Man Tarpat …” and even “O Duniya ke rakhwale …” or from songs in “Chengis Khan”, “Mughal-eazam” where rafi was being stretched beyond his natural capabilities.
#5 Entirely erroneous. The octave is always relevant to the singer’s pitch. If you go by absolute pitch, you could make a claim that Rafi was a greater singer than somebody like Bhimsen Joshi just because Bhimsen Joshi’s natural “Sa” is lower than Rafi’s.
#6 Claiming that rafi could sing at a lower pitch than KK is entirely untrue. Listen to passages in KK’s songs like “Panthi hoon main us path ka” from “Door ka Rahi” or even “Nakhrewaali” and listen to songs where Rafi tries to go low (not many songs sung by Rafi in this range), and you will see the difference. Rafi’s voice shows a husky whispering when he tries to go low, and that betrays his discomfort with the lower notes. He is not as crisp as KK.
#7 I would put KK’s range as roughly 2 octaves in his natural voice (without breaking/yelling), and close to 3 octaves when you factor his ability to yodel. ANd no, a range of 2 octaves is hardly “pedestrian”.
Rafi did traverse about 2.5 octaves but in many instances of such songs (as I took the examples above), he went beyond his natural range. ANd so I would put his range as not much higher than KK’s.
#8 I made this point because one cannot prove that one singer was technically superior to the other. And so other factors come into play to elevate a singer.
Dear Rafi lovers,
I 100% agree with with posts # 951,952,953,954,955,956 and 957.
On the recording of one song of movie ” Hathi mere saathi “, KK left the studio by telling ” Yeh gana mere liye mushkil hai Rafi mia ko bulalo” This shows the greatness and respect to one artist to another artist.
With regards,
Long live Rafi Sahab,
Dr. Khaja Aliuddin
Hi all,
Looks like I ruffled some of the feathers of people the wrong way. I have listened to songs of Rafi and KK right from 1948-1949 till their end, and I am basing my judgement on that. It’s not like I listened to 10 songs and came to conclusions.
My point is that I disagree with music fans who use the “semi-classical” card to prove Rafi’s superiority over KK. Rafi could do things that KK couldn’t do, but the other way around is also true. Rafi was great in singing many kinds of songs, but semi-classical songs is not one of those. The only playback singers, male of female, who even come close to fulfilling all the vital aspects of a semi-classical composition are Lata Mangeshkar and Asha Bhosle. Manna Dey is passable, but even at his best, he is not in the same league as those two. Rafi is not as good as Manna Dey. At least, KK had the sense to stay away from classical songs instead of doing a less-than-perfect job of it. Just because he didn’t sing doesn’t mean he couldn’t sing.
Reg. post 951 – WHat KK said about Rafi or Rafi said about KK do not have any bearing on this issue, mainly because they do so out of modesty.
Reg. post 952 – Any yardstick that you can bring up, I can state that KK is no less than Rafi. Their strengths are different, but it doesn’t prove that one is lesser than (or greater than) the other. If you talk about voice modulation, I can cite many outstanding examples of KK of which I give just 3 – “Aake seedhi lagi dil pe” from “Half-Ticket” (many fans of Rafi dismiss this song as a parody, and yet one can’t deny the fact that KK superbly negotiated his real voice with his falsetto voice, all in a continuous take – back when there was no technology to create magic like they can do today), “Hum bolega to bologe” from “kasauti” (he got the nasal voice of Pran down pat in this song), his songs for Amitabh, and for Rajesh Khanna.
Melody – If you ever get a chance, listen to KK’s songs in Fareb (1953, music by Anil Biswas). He sang a solo (“Husn Bhi Hai Udhaas”) and a duet (“Aa mohabbat ki basti” – with Lata). The deftness with which he negotiates some intricate passages in these songs is awesome. There are many similar songs – “Woh meri taraf yun” from “Kafila” (1952, music by Husnlal Bhagatram), “Meri neendon mein tum” – “Naya Andaz” (O.P.Nayyar, 1956) etc.
Touching the heart – this is entirely subjective. Mukesh fans will claim that Mukesh’s songs touch the heart more than any other singer, likewise for Manna Dey fans.
Regarding post 953 – I don’t agree to this logic. Because, using the same examples, I can say that Rafi needed music directors of the calibre of Naushad, OPN, and other greats to give him hit songs, while KK was so good that he even made mediocre music directors like RDB, Bappi Lahiri, Rajesh Roshan etc. hugely successful.
Post continued …
Since Mr.Myk has mentioned about Yesudas sir, I thought I (as a Keralite who’s been fortunate enough to listen to and watch this great singer from close quarters for so many years) would add my bit…
Yesudas sir’s mastery over (Carnatic) classical music is such that he can rival the best of classical vocalists (called bhagwatars in the south). His classical concerts have been appreciated by the best in the business. His vocal range is phenomenal (2.5 to 2.75 octaves) and like Rafisahab doesn’t strain at high notes… and at lower notes he’s one of a kind. Add to that the voice quality (bordering on perfection) and we have a picture of a near-perfect singer.
And to think, this singer considers Rafisahab as the absolute and accuses God of being partial to his “Mahaguru” (a term he often uses to address Rafisahab). I suppose this leaves very little scope for any debate on who’s the best and like many music lovers who’s been exposed to various kinds of music and various artists, I feel like laughing my guts out when someone compares Kishoreda (a good singer in his own right) to the Colossus named Mohammed Rafi sahab.
Also, there are far too many aspects of Rafi’s singing which make him miles ahead of his contemporaries and peers. I will list a few of these countless aspects:
a) voice
b) tonal quality
c) expression
d) natural ability
e) technical ability
f) range
g) modulation
h) versatility
i) emotion
Post 949: It’s only a jealousy by this chap, nothing else! Even 1000 Kishore Kumars cannot reach or touch Rafi Saheb.
Ref. Post 949:
It’s a joke to compare Kishore or any singer to Rafi. To say Kishore showed more authority in his vocal range than Rafi in his vocal range shows ignorance and blindness of the truth. “Koi humdum na raha” is definitely not in the same vocal range as “Man tarpat hari darshan ko”. The Rafi song has a much higher level of difficulty, more wider vocal range, and is way out of KK’s capabilities as a singer. Rafi was definitely much better than Kishore, and showed much more authority over his range, as well as had a much better and wider range, its a proven fact.
Why compare the two in the first place ?. Why put Kishore in the same category as Rafi “by force” ?. That’s the problem with some people, when its already a proven fact that Rafi was the best, also pointed out by the majority of MD’s, musicians, singers, lyricists etc., and absolutely clear when you hear the two singers, then why put KK’s name in the same breath as Rafi’s, its rubbish.
Rafi was definitely one of the best classical singers. Pandit Gyan Prakash Ghosh, the doyen of the classical genre, considered Rafi the best exponent of classical music, and you’re telling us that he was average in this category ?. Forget about Kishore, even Manna Dey can’t compare to Rafi in classical songs as well. The only person who can come close is Yesudas, he is miles ahead of Kishore (just like Rafi is), and behind Rafi as a singer. KK was no where in many genres of singing, including classical, ghazals, bhajans etc. and yet selected people want to compare him to ‘Saatwan Sur’, what nonsense.
KK was never comfortable in many songs, and to say he moved effortlessly across his range is due to the fact that his songs were majority of the time very easy to sing. Moreover, to say Rafi is outside of his comfort zone, or didn’t move effortlessly in some songs is ignorance of the fact that Rafi was never uncomfortable in any song and had such a wide range that he could sing anything with ease. Btw, anyone who knows classical music knows that “pitch” and “range” is definitely relevant, and because KK did not have such capabilities, why hide these two important aspects ?. There are so many drawbacks of Kishore as a singer, so many holes, that we could draw up a list of them and discuss them one by one. It’s nonsense to compare a candle (Kishore), to the sun (Rafi).
Don’t pay much attention to RMIM debates, its a place full of ignorance and bias. Your arguments have been heard a million times, but it will never prove that KK was better than Rafi, because he never was, as Rafi was and will always be the greatest singer ever. I am greatly amused at these comparisons between Rafi and KK, when Rafi is without a doubt the greatest singer of all time.
Reference 949
Shri Surajit Bose has talked technical without being technical in any way. Most of us on this forum have avoided technicalities, because the general tenor of the discussion has been that music needs to be judged by its mellifluous playing on the strings of your heart rather than a cerebral analysis of its madra saptaks and taar saptaks. But since Shri Bose has introduced the technicalities, I wish to answer him on his own ground and I apologise to those friends on the forum who might be less technically inclined.
Let me thank Shri Bose for accepting at the end of his message that Rafi had a wider range than Kishore. Talking of technicalities and in the context of film-singing, where the singer must render whatever is given to him, range of pitch is a great quality. Even someone like Mehndi Hassan about whom Lataji is known to have said that God Himself speaks through his throat, or someone like Manna Dey whose “Laagaa Chunri Mein Daag†matches the best renderings of classical ragas, or someone like Mukesh, whose melodiously humming voice would transport the listener — even all these greats had to face handicaps when it came to film-singing. So, from Shri Bose’s comment about the range of pitch, it is obvious that in the matter of film-singing, Rafi had the advantage of range over others.
Coming now to the “achievement of control and mastery over Sur†mentioned by Shri Bose, I wish he had given examples to show where Rafi lost his “surâ€. In fact Rafi’s gliding over the notes is so perfect that there is hardly a match except in the songs of Lataji. You must listen to the classical-based song “Painjania chhanke Raam†or “Madhuban mein Radhikaa Naache Reâ€, and innumerable others.
Shri Bose says that “the uninitiated into classical music blindly look for the “taans†and “harkatsâ€. One wonders which song by Rafi he is referring to? There is hardly a song where Rafi has used taans or gamak in a prominent manner. In fact taan and gamak has never been the prominent feature of light classical singing. It is typical of the pure classical singing. And where is there anything classical in Kishore to compare Rafi with? One can only think of “Ik Chatur Naar?†in which his gamaks have resulted in a broken voice, and rightly so because the purpose was to create comedy. If one were to call “Koi humdum Na Rahaa†a classical song, one would have to include virtually all Hindi film songs of yesteryears in that category, because all of them had a raga in the background. When one talks of the classical-based songs in Hindi films, one is referring to songs where not only the aaroh-avaroh of the raga was followed, but even the aakaar was maintained. When one thinks of Kishore, hardly any song that could be said to be classically-based comes to the mind to compare with Rafi’s classical-based songs.
Shri Bose’s criticism of “Man Tarpat Hari Darshan Ko Aaj†is shocking, to say the least. No one with even preliminary knowledge of classical music would say so. The song is deliberately composed over a wide range. The character in the film is Baiju Baawara and a classical song that he sings cannot be composed between Madhyam Saa and Madhyam Pa. The music director has chosen the correct raga and the correct person to sing the song for a character who is supposed to be a gnani of music.
Finally, let me draw the attention of the friends on this forum to the following paragraph in Shri Bose’s message:
“The placement of the base note / tonic is irrelevant. I’m assuming that
the tonic is placed wherever the singer finds it comfortable. Given that
in Indian music, the octave is relative to the singer’s pitch, I don’t see why the fact that Rafi tends to sing at a higher pitch than Kishore should mean anything. If Kishore can reach and sustain *Kishore’s taar gandhaar* more comfortably and with more pleasant results than Rafi can reach *Rafi’s taar gandhaar*, then the fact that Rafi’s taar gandhaar is F or F# while Kishore’s taar gandhaar is merely D# or E is beside the point. It’s not like they are tenors being judged on the quality of their high C. In fact, using this logic, one could say that Kishore was a better singer because he could sing at a much lower pitch than Rafi could.â€
One would get the impression that Shri Bose’s experience of Rafi’s songs is very limited. Rafi has never been found to be uncomfortable in any scale. To say that Kishore could sing at a much lower pitch than Rafi would mean that one has never heard songs like, “Itani badi duniya jahaan itnaa badaa melaa, magar main itnaa akelaa†or “Aaj ki raat, yeh kaisi raat, ki hum ko neend nahin aatiâ€.
Correction… Revised point #3.
#3. Rafi has a tendency to yell when he goes above top Rishabh. Pls. clarify which ‘top rishabh’ you are referring to.. if it’s the ‘d’ in the 3rd octave, you are totally wrong… Rafisahab could transcend another full octave… he could reach upto d in the 4th octave… if he ever yelled that’s only because the song/ situation demanded it. Pls. watch him live in ‘duniya ke rakhwale…’ and tell us where you find him yelling…
Post 949:
Interesting points… but not too convincing.
Let’s discuss some of the points raised here
#1. ‘The goal of any kind of classical training in vocal music is to achieve control of and mastery over Sur’…. No, it’s much more than that, one can say it’s an elementary objective … Both Karnatic and Hindustani classical afford ample flexibility and freedom for their followers to experiment with their things… and Rafisahab did a wonderful job with his subtle (and often undescribable) variations and improvisation. And pls. don’t try to sell us the argument that Rafisahab didn’t achieve control and mastery over sur (and KK did).
#2. ‘The effortlessness with which Kishore moves/switches from register to register is unmatched’…. Wrong… it’s like declaring that SRK emotes effortlessly than Sanjeev Kumar did. This is just an illusion for KK never really sang anything which required swift and wide-ranged switch of notes.. (just like SRK never really tried the kind of roles Sanjeev Kumar did). If in doubt, pls. read what Mannada had to say about KK’s songs. In the narrow (vocal) range within which he operated, helped by RDB’s chord-progression tunes, KK was able to create this feel (of effortless note-switch) and that’s just about it.
#3. Rafi has a tendency to yell when he goes above top Rishabh. Pls. clarify which ‘top rishabh’ you are referring to.. if it’s the ‘d’ in the 2nd octave, you are totally wrong… Rafisahab could transcend another full octave… he could reach upto d in the 3rd octave… if he ever yelled that’s only because the song/ situation demanded it. Pls. watch him live in ‘duniya ke rakhwale…’ and tell us where you find him yelling…
#4. ‘when Rafi hits that high Madhyam: “sun more vyaakul man†or “sab guNiijana peâ€, it is clear that Rafi is yelling and he is outside his comfort zone’ …. It has to be kept in mind that Rafisahab sang this one when he was barely into his 30s… and his vocal range wasn’t as huge as it was in the 1960s or ’70s. Again, it’s amusing that a straight-as-an-arrow song (koi humdam…) is being compared with an intricate semi-classical score to prove the ‘effortlessness in singing’…
#5. ‘People also claim that since Rafi can sing at an “absolute†higher pitch than Kishore, he is a greater singer. But anybody who knows Hindustani Classical Music knows that this is irrelevant’. …. Totally baseless argument. ‘Absolute’ is always absolute… whether it’s Hindustani, Karnatic or Western music… A singer who can strike higher notes without sounding strained can do much more than some one who can’t and it can’t really be off-set by higher range in the lower notes.
#6. ‘one could say that Kishore was a better singer because he could sing at a much lower pitch than Rafi could.’… KK couldn’t sing at a much lower pitch than Rafisahab. The live ‘Duniya ke rakhwale..’ would demonstrate it… KK could strike may be 0.5-1 notes lower than Rafisahab… but when he did it, it wasn’t pleasant to the ear
#7. ‘It could be argued that Rafi had a slightly wider vocal range (about 2 octaves) than Kishore (about 1.5-1.75 octaves’…. Amusing, again… 1.5- 1.75 octave range is pedestrian… any youngster competing in musical shows would possess a higher range… and there’s a huge gap between this and a 2 octave range.. as big as the difference between a 5 footer and a 6 footer. And Rafisahab’s range was not 2 octave.. it was abt. 2.5. I can’t see where KK showed higher authority.. Is it in “mere naina..?” (the only song IMO where he sustained in the 3rd octave)
#8. ‘Besides, technical mastery is just one and not the only criteria for judging singers’… Exactly… but then isn’t this a contradictory statement after all the effort to prove Rafisahab isn’t technically all that good?
#9. ‘Kishore kumar was truly original. That he could do what he did with no training in music is truly inspirational’. Agree 100%, that’s why most of the Rafi lovers (myself included) like KK and listen to him.
ref mail 949,there is no need to write who is better of the two,rafi saab was miles ahead ,please advise why there is almost nil songs of kk from 1955 to 1970 ,and from 1970 to 1980 ( specially from 1976-1980),if he was so great and versatile,why he was not used by his bengali ? mds also.
just listen to the songs of `April Fool`,md sj (the most versatile and commercially sucessful ),and you will know what is rafi saab
please do not waste your time & energy on this non existent issue.
Post 949.. its only a one sided view and open to a big debate – about kishore kumar by you sir.
but, why dont you write about mohd rafi’s voice modulation vs kishore, melody vs kishore, song output vs kishore and mohd rafi’s pious nature in work and life which has now become the talking point in the music world.
just a taan or few songs does’nt make a singer; it’s the overall output that does. more, rafi’s songs touch the heart directly, he is a singer of the masses and the classes, he has such a great output that – may be one life will be incomplete – to comprehend all his great output.
music lovers throng to his concerts even today , (we had about 25 concerts in mumbai alone) during the week of july 31 which is his death anniversary and innumerable ones everywhere else. all this speaks about the popularity of mohd rafi.
we expect you to remain a kishore kumar fan and enjoy the taans of his songs. all the best and good listening too.
binu nair, mumbai.
Re. Post # 949: Rafi Saheb was far far ahead of KK. Even KK had admitted this and most people believe this. Rafi Saheb was an alrounder while KK had many defects in singing classical, patriotic, ghazals, qawwalis…. etc. So, the answer is so simple.