True Voice – Mohd Rafi
The following article was brought to my notice when Sharad posted it on MAS. The article has been trimmed down a bit keeping afloat Rafi details. However, anyone interested can go visit the source at http://tfmpage.com/forum/4980.6302.04.57.19.html
I am Swaminatha Iyer and I am 78 years old. I hail from Tiruchi and I am a part of music associations in Tiruchi, M’as as well as in West Bengal and Maharashtra.
I think it is wrong to condemn music or artists on either side of Vindhyas. Our Indian music is one of the few which has not been cleaned off by the western music though there has always been a influence. It speaks a lot of the richness of our music. Sometime back director of MTV had said that MTV westernized the music wherever it went but in India , MTV had to be Indianized for it to be accepted. A lot of this credit goes to the Indian film music.
I have been fortunate to have close personal association with Rafi, Sirkali, TMS, Dr. BMK, Kishore, SPB & KJY, PS, Mannadey and the one and only Lata Mangeshkar.
Comparisons are bound to come, but almost every artist or I have met considers Lata to be beyond comparison. Her talents are beyond anyone’s reach. Even Sirkazi used to talk of her singing like a die-hard fan as do countless others.
Now coming to the Rafi-SPB discussion. It might be difficult to convince an South Indian to believe Rafi is the better and at the same time Rafi crowd will never believe any other male singer comes anywhere nearer. There is one more mobile crowd, which is well conversant with Hindi and some south Indian language. Majority of them tilt to either Rafi or Kishore.
During one of my stays in M’as I had stayed with SPB. While talking of true voices he said, I don’t feel like half a singer when listening to Rafi. True voice is not a tech term but many in circle use it. Perfect example would be lata, but to understand consider our own PS who within her range is superb. People who do not have such true voices can never do justice to original. They generally underplay many parts of the song or fake it with bass/superficial singing. True voices make people like Sirkazi, Nusrat Fateh Ali khan, Lata… Inimitable. However since Sirkazi and Nusrat did not have the filmy voices their “real” following is limited to their local arena.
In addition to the true voice if the singer has a very good voice then in “most” cases he/she can better songs of others. It is this combination which makes Rafi stand out among the other male singers. There are many here who seem to have mistaken notions on a good bass and also on high pitch.
Bryan Adams does not require a monster bass in “Summer of 69” to sound real manly. It is the punch which gives that feel and that is decided only by the comfort level in most ranges (that is by what your throat can support). This you CAN never disguise with bass. Since people have talked about lack of manly voice viz. a viz. Rafi it was necessary to bring this point out. I have had the fortune of listening to most singers in studio and some times without a mike, practicing with MD’s.When Lata or Rafi do, the level is so high that people hesitate to even hum. It felt silly to sing in their presence (and it feels silly when someone says his voice isn’t manly).
In RD’s tribute when SPB sang “Aaja Aaja mein hoon” or “Chaand mera dil” it sounded only sweet and lacked punch if you compare with Rafi’s original.
Yesu once told me God has been partial to Rafi. He said “god gift term anavasyamaa romba common aa ippo use aardu”.. but idu Rafi kee thaan 100% porundu”. This person could sing “as intricately as a lady without sounding thin”, “cover any mood”, “versatility odey perfect example Rafi”. Yesu said most important is the comfort level over ranges which makes you feel God has been partial to Rafi. (But Of course in Rafi’s early career (1950’s) the voice was relatively feeble).
To people exposed to Rafi’s talent, these or any amount of praise can only seem less. I just wish he was alive and you people could get a live chance to hear him. Probably you can get hold of the DD album for the Geet Gaata Chal series where the first four episodes were dedicated to Rafi. Rafi is on camera singing “O Duniya Ke Rakwaaley” and many other songs. If you see and hear the last part you will realize why SPB said “impossible”. I think particularly those people who have talked about scales w.r.t Rafi should see this album. Its a known fact in industry that Rafi ruled high pitch and there is no male singer better in switching notes so easily. There are artists who can go beyond but then they sound strained or they don’t have pleasant voices when they venture into those territories.
Many singers of today are his compulsive followers. But they end up inheriting only part of his quality. Md. Aziz ended up with a sad voice. Mahendra Kapoor with a thick nasal voice. Anwar with a nasal voice. Sonu Nigam with a feminine voice. Rafi neither had a soft voice nor a heavy (bass) voice he had a good voice. Importantly did not strain at high notes, and voice if at all only became better at higher notes. If you see him singing it will remind you of Janaki. However diff the song is or the note is he will be smiling and singing. It is unthinkable that he cannot sing something.
There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo” song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect. There are lot of other songs of SPB where this great singer has played with songs in total control. You will find most south Indian singers who have had a good exposure say that it is beneficial to learn Hindustani as it gives better breath control and improves expression.
Rafi was not only able to glide over a song, the important thing was that he could express each word/sound when singing. It is one thing to hold your breath, start and reach a crescendo (high note), as like in “Shankara”, “Anbey (Yennai kaan villaye)” it is different ballgame if you have to do it from low notes or suddenly switch notes. With practice the former can be done, latter requires a special gift. Rafi had a natural ability to do the latter. In “Tum joh mil gaye ho” there is such a transition in the “karwaan mil gaya” part. I have never seen anyone do justice to most of his songs in my life time. In “parda hai parda” quawaali the similar part is “kar doon to, Akbar mera naam”. In fact most of his songs will have these specialty as it was his natural ability to sing freely in a wide range at the same time giving that extra expression.
Whereas SPB takes us to heavens with “Idu oru pon maali”,”Ilaya nila” “bisiladarenu”(kannada), when he sings Rafi’s song it lacks the punch or expression, though it has the bass. But at least most agree that SPB does some justice to original, whereas most others murder the original.
One trivial point I would like to add is that singing in Hindi is harder. There are more “JHA”,”CHA”,”HA”,”THA”, “KHA”,”JA”,”FA”. These take away the breath faster. The more expressive you are the more air you are using up. Just singing from Nabhi will not help, your throat also needs to do a lot, for singing in Hindi, Bengali etc. SPB makes you fall in love with his south Indian songs but same cannot be said about his Hindi songs. If you just glide through words having these sounds, you will never be expressive. Doing this as well as reaching high notes is not easy. Rafi had this gift and that’s why it is difficult to imagine anyone else in his shoes. Song “Chalkaaye jaam” has so much expression that it is unthinkable how anyone can sing it. When Rafi switches to a high note with “Mitwaa” in the song “Chaahunga mein tughey” you cannot replicate it with bass. Most others will sound as if they are shouting in such cases. That man’s throat had the ability to freely sing at such levels.
Versatility is not just the ability to sing in various styles, more important is how good you are singing in those styles. You have lot of Ghazal singers today but when Rafi sings a Ghazal you will sit up and take notice. You don’t have to be part of the Ghazal listeners crowd. This is one important aspect. Whatever style you sing you should be able to pull the common man to listen and not just a particular crowd. Pick “parda hai parda” or any qawalli and it will stand tall among other qawalli’s.
Variety is amazing :
songs of Guru Dutt’s Khagaz key phool or songs like abhi naa jao chod key, Aaja teri yaad aayi, Aaj kal mein dhal gaya, Aaj kal terey merey pyaar, Aasmaan sey aaya farishta, Dil ney pyaar kiya hai, Deewana mujh saa nahi, Din dhal jaaye, Duniya paagal hai, Jaane walon jara, Dil joh na kaha saka, Dil key jharokon mein, Dil kaa bhavar, Chalkey teri aakkhon sey, Kar chaley hum fida, khilona jaan kar tum, Woh jab yaad aay, Woh hain jara khafa, Vaadian mera daaman, Pathar key sanam, Chaand mera dil, Main zindagi kaa saath, Mainey poocha chaand sey, sun sun jaalima, Koi jab raah na paay, hum to chaley pardes, badan pey sitaarey, laal chadi maidaan, Tum jo mil gaye, O meri shaahey, Sau baar janam lengey, Tum mujhey yoon bhula, Tumney mujhey dekha, Terey merey sapney, Tumny pukaara hum chaley aay
Name a situation/mood and Rafi’s song will be there on the top.
Swami
what’s this man trying to say in this “unwanted prose”? Moderator ji, we are tired to the hilt – reading his nonsense posts due to this mans bad ear drums and prejudices.
binu nair
Hi Sudip,
thanks for posting an objective and reasonable reply to my post. i wish other fans would have done the same. discussions can be had without resorting to flames. but that’s probably why there are fans, :-). and i am telling this in an unaffected way. i get irritated similarly when kishore’s fans start fawning on him on his websites.
anyways, getting back to the points in discussion. i did point out songs where kishore’s improvisations are a little more obvious but the point stands that they are obvious mainly because they were made outside the actual “song” itself. improvisations within the song, of which there are plenty of examples, are more easily explained because great playback singers have a proclivity for expression that lends itself to subtle variations such as inflection of the voice, change in its texture, punctuation which involves proper placement of gaps in adjacent words, tailing off of the tone and so on.
Kishore, like rafi, was abundantly blessed with these gifts by which he could elevate even the most pedestrian of tunes and lyrics to the status of high art.
but kishore went even further. any doubters of kishore’s imagination with respect to music just have to give an ear to songs from “Door gagan ki chaon mein” and “Door ka rahi”, or even “Jhumroo” – films for which he composed and sang most of the songs. such beautiful and melodious compositions like “Aa chal ke tujhe”, “koi lauta de mere”, “beqarar-e-dil”, “panthi hoon main”, “thandi hawa yeh chandni”, “matwaale hum matwaale tum” etc. give an indication of how musically gifted he was.
regarding 1, kishore’s voice is in fact one of the very few “true-tone” voices in the music industry. it was crisp, clear and robust, fluid and mellifluous. so much so that sometimes his mere speech sometimes took on a musical temper.
while it is true that there are certain genres of songs that rafi sang that kishore would probably not have been able to do justice to, it is more because of rafi’s unique voice than due to kishore’s technical limitations. and vice versa is also true.
many people comment on rafi’s superiority as being de facto, as if it is a fact, and the proof being that most MDs chose him over other singers, esp. through most of the 1960’s. however, it is a more superficial arguement that it appears.
people who tout the fact that stalwart MDs like OPN, Naushad, Khayyam etc. chose rafi, need to agree that, while rafi did do full justice to most of the songs outside the semi-classical, a certain, and by no means small, amount of credit for the compositions should go to the MD’s too. kishore had no such luxury. it is to entirely to his credit that MD’s like RDB, rajesh roshan, bappi lahiri were so successful. while you said in your earlier post that kishore’s songs for these MD’s were still mediocre, you forgot the point that i was making. had these songs been sung by any other singer, including rafi, they would have been even less than mediocre.
further i wouldn’t even listen to songs from sharaabi (except, perhaps, for “Log kehte hain”) and alag alag. they were mediocre outputs from fading MD’s using an aging kishore.
i still maintain that rafi’s semi-classical prowess probably carries more repute than it actually warrants. if somebody who argues that rafi is as good as lata or saigal in rendering classical songs (and then goes on to point to a few rafi-lata popular duets), i would say they have no clue as to what to look for, technically.
take a song like “madhuban mein radhika”. rafi doesn’t go off-key anywhere in this song, and yet he fails to bring out the gist of the raga (hameer). on the other hand, lata’s rendering of “man mohana bade jhoote” comes immersed in jaijaivanti raga.
even a cursory listening to lata’s songs like “jyoti kalash” from “bhabhi ki choodiyan” or “Sanware sanware” from “anuradha” or “man mohana bade jhoote” will give an indication of the vast gulf between her and the rest. it’s hard to overstate her command of the swara.
similarly, one could listen to “rum jhum rum jhum chal tihari” from “tansen” by saigal (in shankara raga) and marvel. he covers a full two octaves in this song, and glides through it beautifully. and he doesn’t make it appear like he is struggling anywhere.
i have no desire to argue with the rest of the posters nor do i have any desire to “prove” my classical credentials.
most of the posters who criticize kishore take only his songs from the 1970’s as an example. people forget that kishore made his debut in 1948, and has sung some beautiful songs during the 1950’s and 1960’s. the fact that they continue to repeat ad nauseum the same mantra, tells me that they have no clue as to kishore’s earlier works for MD’s like khemchand prakash, sajjad ali, anil biswas, husnlal-bhagatram, n datta etc.
just to give a few samples:
husn bhi hai udhaas
woh meri taraf yun
aa mohabbat ki basti
lehron se pooch lo
mere dil meri jaan
mere neendon mein tum
yeh raatein yeh mausam
a rough analogy of the difference between the two can be given by the following example. rafi can be likened to gavaskar, a man of impeccable technique, a man by the book, well-rehearsed while kishore can be likened to somebody like richards. nobody can teach you to play like him, but what he does out there is pure magic.
one could argue that rafi sang a wider spectrum of songs, and appreciate him for that. but, from a purely technical angle, it cannot be said with any certainty that rafi was the superior singer. rafi, being a tenor, could sing at an “absolute” higher pitch than other singers. but, that doesn’t make him superior to other singers. otherwise, many classical singers (bhimsen joshi even) would have to quit, if “absolute” high pitch singing is the sole criteria for judging singers.
likewise, kishore (being a baritone) could go to an “absolute” lower pitch than most singers (hemant kumar is the only other singer who comes close), and yet i don’t take that into effect.
Re: Post 1035
Dear Mr. Haldar, once again you have brought an excellent example of two renditions of the same song to emphasize the prowess of Rafi Sahib. ‘Man re tu kahey na dheer dhare’ is one of the best songs in hfm. The ease with which Rafi Saheb’s version traverses between the words is amazing. This song has some of the word-combinations in which the highs and the lowes are adjacent. One can see that in Anup’s version these word-combinations are not as well modulated as in Rafi Saheb’s version and that’s why his version flows so smoothly. Also, as you pointed out, the word enunciation, with the correct emotions attached to them, makes this song a thing of beauty.
Incidentally, some one had pointed a long time ago in this forum that after Rafi Saheb’s death, kk started his next concert with this song as a tribute to the master. I will like to hear that too.
Although many categorize this song as a bhajan but I fail to understand what is in this song, except some Sanskritized Hindi, that makes it a bhajan. May be someone will enlighten me.
This debate can also be compared in another way. The success of movies
at the box-office is connected with good music. As far as Rafi is concerned
whether the movie is hit or a flop at the box-office (if the music director is
good and the lyrics also good), chances of his songs becoming a hit were
very high most of the time (regardless of whom he is singing for).
However with Kishore Kumar this was not always the case. Most of the time
movies has to be a hit at the box-office for his songs to be successful. Take
for example some actors for whom he sang. When Dev Anand was a big star
in the 50’s and 60’s whenever KK sang for him majority of the time songs were hits however in the 70’s when his films were not doing well so were the songs sung by KK (maybe one song per movie was successful).
When Rajesh Khanna was the superstar of the early 70’s KK was providing
hits after hits (this possibly was the best that was produced by KK in quality
also) but no sonner as Rajesh Khanna movies started to fare badly at the box-
office so do the songs by KK (again one or two hit songs per movie). Even
Amithab Bachan early movies at the box-office were not hits and in those movies KK did not perform that well.
This also explains why we don’t hear quite a few of the hit songs that KK gave
at the time and are no longer popular now (like today’s music), because if
a movie is successful then even a average song can become a hit but fades away after some time. This proves that KK never really was a King maker
contrary to claims by many of his fans who says because of him many stars
became superstars. I think he always went with the tide and never against
the tide.
Also we need to remember in the 50’s and 60’s music played a major role for
any movie to become a hit. However in the 70’s movies were mostly action
based with multi-star cast and more importance to dialogues, here music was
given less importance, lot of movies became big hits even though music of those movies was just average. These things also helped KK to remain on top
in that period as the bar was lowered as far a music was concerned.
Friends,
Just now, I was hearing after many many years a Rafi-Asha suet from Film:Chacha Chowdary(1953)—MD:Madan Mohan. The song is “Hasna Gaana Mauj Manaana Lallalallala Lallalallalla”.
In this song, before each of the three antaras, Rafi Saab sings a Carnatic style aalaap (exactly, carnatic style!!!) and sings so beautifully like an authentic, well-trained, veteran Carnatic Music Exponent. Even I was surprised as I never heard earlier any Carnatic stuff from Rafi Saab.
So, Rafi Saab did excellently a plethora of things, not known to even ‘knowledgeable’ persons and not known at all to ‘Ignoramuses’ of the type we find in this thread!!!
Some of these Ignoramuses try to comment on Rafi Saab just as The Six Blind Men tried to describe an elephant.
To ‘know’ Rafi Saab even partially, one must certainly have an ability to appreciate music from one’s heart . Now what I said is an essential condition, but still not an adequate condition. One should also have a very wide and deep knowledge of his work. Now, do these Ignoramuses fulfill even one of these two conditions? They don’t.
So, why don’t they go and try to understand the likes of Himesh, Shan, etc. which is more or less of their level?
If anyone wants, I can upload that Chacha Chowdary duet.
Venkat
I don’t know why you all KK fans are RD fans also!!!!!!!!???,why you Rd fans say that Mohd Rafi came back in 1976 with RD film?plz give me RD hit films without Mohd rafi please please hit as Music?Dear KK fans do u think that Rajesh Khanna and Mr Bachchan was super star because of KK voice?jest listen to Mohd Rafi songs singed for Rajesh Khanna ……..how long Rajesh Khanna was superstar?who is the actor who had best songs in his films?why RD used mohd Rafi more than KK in Shaan Rd last film with Mohd Rafi?why LP back to Mohd Rafi?Why OPN said it was his biggest mistake when he put mohd rafi out of his music room?why mostly people said the best music was in 1960’s and no music after 1980?why dharji back to Mohd rafi?why Dilip kummar was not able to give hit with KK same as Rajendr kummar?why Raj Kapoor who used Mohd Rafi so less said that Mohd rafi is the king without crown?!!!!what happened to actors who used Mohd Rafi in 1960’s and they switch to KK in 1970’s?why shammi kapoor said that there are many who made Shammi Kapoor but there only name without him there is no Shammi Kapoor of course it greatness of Shammi Ji but you don’t think that is true?
this mad manush must have understood by now – the following that mohd rafi commands. this is only a trailer. there are millions and millions of indians and non-indians everywhere – who will testify mohd rafi to be the numero uno singer of the world.
this manush is a trouble maker and not a music lover. now, i am fully convinced.
binu nair.
this man cannot revive the kishore kumar site and he is here throwing his mad theories , which no one will believe (including his family members) who must be loving Man tadpat hari darshan ko and Madhuban me radhika naache re which has become our national treasure.
this man is a trouble maker and he will also disagree what our manna dey saaheb told about mohd rafi. : ” on a scale of one to ten – its only mohd rafi as a singer. others will follow from no. eleven onwards”. this from a veteran singer who was a serious contender to mohd rafi for more than 30 years or so.
pls give this mad music theorist a test to know his musical capacity by a national panel of musicologists in his area of residence and then throw all his posts to the – arabian sea.
binu nair, mumbai.
I think there should be chat room in where we can speak about music only what is true and as you KK fans,if there is please advise me’
We should know that people like Hussein Sheikh who is not from India but he know more than you and me about Mohd rafi that is the magic of Mohd Rfai voice and there are many arabs who love mohd rafi as we saw at Sa Re Ga Ma when song one from Oman who is fan of Mohd Rafi as he said once(raed in news paper) at he was singing KK song when he was in school of other great singer but his friends said him that his voice is like Mohd Rafi voice..
i asked of my friends who is KK fan he said that a night when I am alone I like Mohd Rafi songs!!!!?
naushad said once Mohd Rafi came to his home that request that the song he singed was not ok he want to sing it again as Naushad you singed it well but he wants to sing it again what he did that mean the true how honest singer was Mohd rafi…………………….
Aaja Aaja†was not easy to be sing by Mohd rafi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????Asha ji said many time it was not easy for her and once at Sharjah TV in 1980’s or 1990’s I am not sure the year but she siad that she won Rs 500 from Mohd Rafi because mohd Rafi said her that the winner will pay Rs 500 to the loser for the same song,in the same film in all songs there is Mohd Rafi voice and this one of few films in which a singer in all songs.Aaja Aaja†is also easy for Asha ji as I think she is great singer but she want to show that RD was great…If naushad Ji said that Mohd Rafi was not able to sing I will agree because he made songs for singer as Naushand said that KK asked him why you don’t give me songs and the answer was my songs are not for you will not be able to sing my songs.
why when you speak about KK you put RD what do you think that KK is nothing without RD?
Kk was good singer but mohd Rafi is and will be greatest singer,why you KK fans are not thinking that KK should has Bharat Ranta awards as Lata ji got?
It is Red line to say that mohd Rafi was not able to sing or some one can sing better than mohd Rafi……………………….
You are absolutely spot on, Mr.Harvinder. This was the point I was also trying to make in one of my earlier posts. Some people subjects Rafisahab to severest of scrutinies, comparing him with the best in every genre, finds (so-called) flaws and therefore declares he’s not as good as he’s made out to be. And they simply push through another singer without any of these litmus tests and proclaim he’s oh-so good (just bcoz he ’emotes’, and yodels).
Kishore fans:
Please listen to these two songs. The first one is by Kishore (a song that I can hardly digest past the mukhda) and the second one by Pakistani Akhlaq Ahmed, who had a base similar to Rafi. This would give KK fans a good idea of how it would have sounded in Rafi’s voice (if not better). This should put to rest the speculation that Rafi could not have sung KK’s songs..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE7lsLplg5w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pL4KSSw3LI&feature=related
Surajit: I would like you to compare the performances and tell us how Kishore fared in the “avarohana” compared to this Pakistani singer..To me he had too many rough edges along the transition
Great post, Haldar sir. You may rest assured we are not swayed by what these guys write. God has given us ears as you mentioned and he has given us Rafi sahab.
Nice of you to post that Yesudas sir song here… infact I must thank God for enabling me listen so much to Rafisahab as well as South’s own Rafi.
By the way, have you listened to the “duniya ke rakhwale….” by a young looking pandit (I watched it sometime back and can’t remember his name) in the youtube? It’s the same old story, the classical maestro does his things well but at the end of it we feel like being served a meal without the main course.
Mr. Haldar,
I fully agree with you, and you are absolutely spot on with your analysis. We should not pay attention to such people who write rubbish on great forums like this one. Rafi-saab was, is, and will always remain the greatest of all time and nothing will change this fact.
I would also like to mention something on the topic of retakes. I don’t think Rafi-saab ever needed any retakes on a song because he could not interpret it or could not sing it. If at all he needed any retakes, I think it would have been on his own suggestion. As I mentioned earlier, he was the only singer with the fastest pick-up.
vasant desai once refused to do the music score for some movie as kishore was supposed to render all the songs from the movie, kishore’s voice was nightmare for many great pedant music directors and vasant desai was one of them…
however, here i must admit that kishore is one of the six greatest male playback singers we have ever had, but as far as quality is concerned his plight is worst when compared to other 5-{rafi,talat,hemant,manna,mukesh}.
rafi, lata and talat were closest to divinity with rafi sahab leading from the front…
haven’t developed my ears & taste yet for the real greats- kls,mullick etc…
friends, I’d like to request all of you not to react this person who keeps writing without any basis. Initially, I thought he has a good grasp of classical music but maybe he was a little naive. Now I realise that he doesn’t know anything about hindi film music. This is typical of some convent-educated bengalis who claim to know about classical music by taking some music lessons and by dropping a few names here and there (like husnlal bhagatram) to show that he knows so much. All he knows about hfm is through some alleged comments made by rd (as told to raju the clown). His comments are so ludicrous that they are not worth responding to. As someone commented earlier, only someone who finds a donkey’s braying sweet would point to the salil composition sung by kishore as an example. If you have heard this composition sung in malayalm by yesudas, you would never even care to listen to the kishore version. If you haven’t heard the yesudas version, here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrnxDjBYO7M
For those twenty and thirty-year olds who love good music (like old monk xxx, myk and anil cherian), please don’t get swayed by articles written by some stupid people. God has given you ears, listen to rafi saab’s songs and judge for yourself. This man was considered a genius by some of the greatest musicians of the country. Presidents and prime ministers came to greet him. Pandit Nehru wanted a private audience with him. The conductor of the Birmingham Symphonic Orchestra did several concerts in his memory.
I’d like to close this post with a couple of rafi songs delivered by the bengali actor bat-ball on screen. Here’s a favorite of mine from rajhaat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S_a9NQ9uTs
And the song that has been ranked no. 1 in the outlook poll:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvW7LbUidao
Now hear the same song in bhajan samrat anup jalota’s voice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE-V4UzSUPI
Please remember that anup jalota is a specialist bhajan singer, but I’m sure you’ll notice the difference.
No one, I repeat no one, could interpret the essence of a song like rafi saab. He could take the original tune and magnify it hundred-fold. People who find it difficult to accept this plain truth can go elsewhere.
Post 1022: Please give us solid proof that Rafi Saheb was finding difficulties in singing songs from ‘Teesri Manzil’ and ‘Maya’. Do you have any audio proof of RDB and/or Salil Chowdhary?? I am sure you do not have because it’s rotten stories and unbelieveable. Recently, Asha Bhosle was seen in Sa Re Ga Ma Pa Challenge 2009 in Zee TV, where she, herself said that, she was getting trouble in singing “Aaja Aaja Main Hoon Pyar Tera…”, why she did not say Rafi Saheb also was getting trouble in singing the said song?? Rafi Saheb has sung more difficult songs than this one with ease! So, my dear Rafi Saheb fans, do not believe Mr. Bose and his fake stories here on this site. He is trouble maker and has come to disturb us just for nothing! Mr. Bose, please stay away.
Mr Bose’s comments enlightened many like me with exchange of information, especially on semi classical stuff.
When Tendulkar was at his peak, he was compared with Brian Lara and V.Richards and even bradman and found lacking in a few fields. He was expected to be aggressive like Richards & Lara, solid in defence like Gavaskar. Likewise critics always like to find or create the impression of so called flaws in Rafi saheb’s singing. He was expected to be as classical as Mr Ghantasala (i have heard his songs in telagu which I do not understand, but his voice is out of this world for instance Chal ud ja re panchhi in his language has more punch, whereas Rafi saheb’s is smooth as silk), as sweet as Saigal, as heavy and forceful as Kishore da. Qawaal like Nusrat and so on. How can one be master of all. He was all rolled into one with near perfection in all the fields. What appeals me the most is that there are songs which are rendered straight from the heart and one gets the impression that he used to get some divine force in his voice. Surprisingly, no one dares to compare Lataji and look for flaws there yet.
Surajit Bose — you either have some bias due to a non-musical reason, or you can’t discern between good & bad. Just analyze Rafi’s body of work in an objective & unbiased way, and will realize that he is the most complete & greatest ever Bollywood singer. Kishore was good in his own right, but his body of work sounds extremely juvenile and childish, and so are the Kishore variations that you have mentioned in your post #1022. Plus, Kishore had a horrible voice for singing and several of his songs sound cheap because of his voice limitation. Not his fault really, but he did have severe limitations and too many to list. No wonder, most topmost music directors except his biased Bengali friends(RDB + SDB) avoided Kishore like a plague till the 70’s. Hopefully, one day you will grow up and see the light.
Rafi had a strong base in Classical Music. Rafi Sahab received training from prominent classical Ustads like Abdul Wahid Khan, Pandit Jiwanlal Matto, Ghulam Ali Khan and Firoz Nizami.Some of his immortal songs like ‘Man Re Tu Kahe Naa Dheer Dhare’,” Madhubaan mein Radhika Naache Re’ and ‘Naache Maan Mora Magan’ reflect these capabilities. His grasp of nuances in classical music are beyond comparison with any other Hindi playback singer.
It is a big mistake to somehow prove that Rafi is better than Kisore or vice versa.Both were distinct and any virtuoso of Indian music should be mature enough to refrain from making such comparisons.I must mention though,that Kisore did not improvise ‘Tum Bin Jaun Kahan’ by adding ‘yodelling’.The quality of Hindi Playback songs deteriorated and has been deteriorating since 70’s and the ‘yodellings’ can be attributed as one of its cause.Nevertheless, Kisore’s songs were gems as was Kisore himself.
One can compare average performers and say who sang better.But with singers like Rafi,Lata and Kisore,comparisons reflect immaturity.True genius always stands apart.
Re: 1022
I went to the link, the writer has embedded in his post. The song starts with beuautiful music but then it is folled with the braying of a donky pretty soon another donky joins the braying. I did not think lataji sang that badly. It must be the recording!
Ref Post 1022:
Let’s break up you faulty arguments one by one:
You wrote:
“rafi is a great playback singer, undoubtedly, but not as good a classical singer as many here seem to think. his grasp of the nuances of classical music is rudimentary, at best. And i am not even talking about crisp or complex taankari. lata mangeshkar and k l saigal are the only playback singers who come the closest to stand-up to a scrutiny of their classical compositions.”
Rafi was the best male playback singer and classical singer by far. Manna Dey and KC Dey who were more trained than him in classical music, as well as Pandit Gyan Prakash Ghosh also were of the same view, as well as countless others. It’s a joke to compare KLS to Rafi in terms of classical singing, he was no where close. Lata is the only one who can compare to Rafi in classical singing. I’m not sure how and why you think that Rafi was not great in classical singing, however it won’t change the truth.
You wrote:
“so, once the classical element is taken out of the equation, we can heap praises on him deservedly because his voice, his capability to emote, his diction and pronounciation are all excellent. but the same could be said of kishore.
Nope, why should you take the classical element out, when Rafi was virtually the best classical singer ?. Just because Kishore lacked classical ability, it doesn’t mean you should take it out for Rafi. You are wrong, Kishore never had the voice, nor emoting capabilities of Rafi. His pronounciation is nothing compared to Rafi. Only an amateur in music would mention such lethargic statements.
You wrote:
“This is because we are now entering into a realm which becomes subjective. if you ask mukesh fans about the emotive power of mukesh’s voice, they will say nobody can match him. and that is something that neither rafi or kk fans can argue about. it’s a personal choice.”
Definitely its personal choice, but any knowledgeable music fan will never ever compare Kishore or any male singer to Rafi. Leaving aside subjective opinions, based on musical qualifications, no one touches Rafi. You can be as critical as you want of Rafi, but sorry to say he had no weaknesses. Whereas Kishore had many flaws, many blemishes, and many drawbacks. SDB, Kishore’s mentor even told him point blank that he could never be a Rafi.
You wrote:
“no singer is perfect. they have their strengths and weaknesses. rafi is better than kishore in singing some types of songs. but the reverse is also true.”
Rafi is and was better than Kishore and others in singing every song. The only dimension where Kishore made his own was the “Y” demension as pointed out by Mr. Haldar a while ago, but still Rafi lead in this area too. Talk about ghazals, bhajans, classical songs, western, pathos, happy, romantic etc., KK is an amateur compared to Rafi.
You wrote:
“my measuring of a film singer is based on the following short takes:
1. a strong adherence to swara (what we call “techniqueâ€) – both shruti and laya. i also put emphasis on how smooth his transition is across registers.
2. his ability as far as the delineation of the emotional content is concerned
3. and finally, his natural ability to improvise and add to a basic tune that was given to him by the MD.
rafi is very good in both 1 and 2, but he still has a weakness in 1. rafi does seem to face some problems where he has to sing rapidly changing scales (this is more commonly seen in western music), and MD’s who incorporate this aspect of western music into their songs”
Your measuring is your own opinion, and even then Rafi leads all of your categories. Rafi was the only one who could switch registers with ease. Asha Bhosle also mentioned Rafi’s greatest strength was his ability to shift between notes with ease. What you are saying is total nonsense. KK never had the ability to switch between notes or registers with ease. He hardly had any range, it was only Rafi who was the master at this aspect. I can cite many examples where KK’s transition is very weak, and in general his range was average at best.
You wrote:
“salil and RDB commented on this. Salil, who always preferred mukesh to both rafi and kishore, commented on this when he touched upon a song in the film “Maya†– “Tasveer teri dil meinâ€. he said rafi took no less than a dozen takes before he got it right. RDB commented on how difficult it was to get rafi to sing “Aaja aaja main hoon pyaar tera†from “Teesri Manzil†the way he wanted. kishore was better in this regard.”
I would not take Salil’s comments seriously, what he is saying is rubbish. He has also mentioned that Rafi was the greatest of all time. I don’t think the Maya story is true, as Rafi was the only singer with the fastest pick-up, as pointed out by most MD’s. Rafi hardly needed retakes on any song, but he was very particular about rehearsals because he was a perfectionist. Kishore on the other hand had to take re-takes on many songs in his career. Also, he couldn’t even sing many songs, for example “Nafrat ke duniya” from HMS, LP had to call on Rafi for that song, and there are many other examples. Yet you have the nerve to say KK was better in this regard and other aspects, what utter rubbish. What RDB said is not true, that’s Raju Bharatan commenting there, I can’t believe you fell for that. SDB and RDB mentioned great things about Rafi that only Rafi could do and no one else. Also, RDB and Nasir Husain mentioned that Asha was the one having trouble with “Aaja Aaja” and never Rafi, so your comments hold no value at all.
You wrote:
“kishore also had a weakness in 1. He had problems where he had to maintain contours according to a “pattern†that is bound to a classical tune. And that is not because he is found wanting. It’s just that he had to “learn†it and it was not spontaneous for him.”
Nope, that was because Kishore was definitely found wanting. Kishore did not have that much abilities as a singer. If he did he would have been taken seriously as a singer much earlier, and not only when he was handed a break by the Burmans. In the 50’s he wasn’t even considered a fourth option and had to resort to acting. I suggest you do some research on your idol before you comment at such places, especially this forum. Even if Kishore learned anything, he couldn’t go far. You can only go as far as your ability can take you. Kishore had limited abilities as a singer, and its a joke to compare him to a mountain such as Rafi.
You wrote:
“but point 3 is where kishore most scores over rafi. kishore is always able to add a touch of his genius to the tune, adding impromptu improvisations, but always keeping within the structure of the song. many co-singers, MD’s commented on this. i will give a few examples:”
LOL touch of genius ?. Are you seriously kidding me. Most Kishore songs sound straight with very little variations and variety. The only person who added his touch of genius to songs was Rafi. The many co-singers, MD’s commenting on this is rubbish, as most singers, musicians, MD’s, lyricists have commented on Rafi’s ability to do that and much more, and they all hail Rafi as the first and last word in singing. If others have commented on Kishore’s abilities to do whatever, I wouldn’t take it seriously because the truth is Kishore had many limitations.
You wrote:
“in the duet “Aankhon mein kya ji†from “nau do gyarahâ€, asha bhosle said in an interview that the elongation that ends every kishore part of the song was added on the spot by kishore.”
Not a big deal, and a very poor example, I can give dozens of examples of Rafi songs, however I will not because I know judging by your comments, your musical knowledge is not at such a level where we can have constructive debates.
You wrote:
“RDB mentioned that the humming that precedes “Aanewala pal …†(hmm hmm aaha ha …) was added by kishore.”
LOL, again not a big deal. If you want to show examples, bring forward in depth songs, and not simple humming. The problem is you will never be able to find such Kishore songs because he did not have the ability to sing such songs.
You wrote:
“see how much kishore added to “tum bin jaoon kahan†compared to rafi’s version. give a song to kishore and he will improvise it so much you feel that that is the only way the song can be sung. Even the most pedestrian of tunes and lyrics have been made extra-ordinary by his ingenuity.”
Really is that so ?. The best version of “Tum bin jaun kahan” was the sad piano-based version by Rafi. How come RDB didn’t give that version to Kishore ?. The answer is because Kishore could not sing such a song. KK’s sad version pales in comparison to Rafi’s sad version of the same song. Even Rafi’s happy version is better than Kishore’s version.
You wrote:
“i don’t give as much emphasis to the correctness of the language or so-called diction, pronounciation etc.”
Why not ?. It is a very important part of singing. Your arguments show your bias, and they can’t be called constructive. Please spare us more laughter by not posting such nonsense on this forum any longer. The more you do, the more your case drowns.
Rafi is the first and last word in singing, and nothing you or others say will change this fact.
Well, I had always been talking about live singing. Singing inside the studio and singing live is like a difference of day and night.
Those of them who are hard fans of Rafi G may got to youtube.com and listne to live Suhani Raat Dhal Chuki, You will find the visible flaws in the live singing. Please note this again… i m not saying that he is not singing well, i am just trying to convey to those who blindly believe that Rafi g was completely flawless. Please listen to the live song and let me know if I am wrong. To my knowledge there is a difference the live and the recorded version. Awaiting your response to this. Please note that I dont want blind views. Please talk on facts. And I am telling you the facts based on what I have seen and heard. So, please take some effort and go to youtube.com and listen to the song. I am waiting ur comments on this. Yes, one thing great about Rafi G is that he does not leave the feel anyway, and has bulland aawaz. Also note that I am not comparing Rafi G with KK. I m just comparing Rafi G with the perfect Rafi Sahb.
Thanks
Ref 1010
Ponnaps is right in saying that KK misses the notes few time in the song “Kuch tou log Kahenge”
Ref 1022,
I think Mr. Boss has some points to make which really makes sense.
I do admit that Rafi sahb had a better command in the vocs, but some songs let me refer one
“Maut Kabhi Bhi”
In this song the allap in the beginning goes a little out of melody.
Listen to these words “Phir tujko Yes Pal na milega” Also note that at “Milega” Rafi Sahb is unable to keep the sustain.
. I am a very small man to critisize a great legend like Rafi Sahb, I admire him from the core of my heart. What a lovely singer he was. But I believe that any great singer can have his or her own flaws. So, that is one of them. Please let me know if I am wrong guys.
Thanks
Re. Post: 1022: This chap has repeated the same thing (like a parrot) as he did in his 1st post. Leave Kishore aside, even Saigal and Lata cannot be compared to Rafi Saheb. The song “Tum Bin Jaoon Kahan…” in Rafi Saheb’s voice was more melodious. RDB recorded this song with Rafi Saheb twice! Why he didn’t record it twice with KK? Regarding ‘Teesri Manzil’ and ‘Maya’ songs, it’s all fake stories. No one will believe it. Why don’t this chap realize that KK failed to sing the song from ‘Haathi Mere Saathi” and few others which went finally to Rafi Saheb. Please do not write if you don’t know the truth.
So the cat’s fully out of the bag now… it was threatening to do so for sometime… But what really baffles me is the same pattern followed by the species… of initially trying to relegate Rafisahab into a technically mediocre (and just) play back singer (much like the ‘other one’), then pitting him head on against the ‘other one’ in areas where they feel ‘he’ has an edge over Rafisahab… But the sad part is that even after all this excercise Rafisahab emerges the winner… for even in these category of songs, he’s the baadshah.
And I’m still at my wits end trying to figure out if there’s any real sense behind this theory… If for argument’s sake, we agree with the postulators of this theory that Rafisahab is not technically too sound, the logical conclusion is that only someone who’s technical better can outdo him. Amusingly, the postulators brings in another singer who (despite tall claims of capable of switching notes et al) is infact a non-singer from a technical point if view and tries to prove this one’s as good or even better. So what’s the final verdict?
Then there’s the punch line .. correct language, diction etc are nothing… this is from a keen follower (and practitioner) of ‘classical’ music. So much for the ‘shadgas’ and ‘rishabhs’.
Surajit:
Nice post. While I agree with the spirit of the post, I cannot agree less over the content. Even if I go by your parameters, I do not think Rafi is found wanting in #3. You have cited few anecdotes on Kishore. Similar anecdotes also exist in the Rafi world. Shammi Kapoor had mentioned several times that the “Taarif” repeated several times over Yeh Chand Ka Roshan Chehra, was entirely Rafi’s idea…Though I am fully aware that some contemporaries of Kishore has spoken hoighly of his innovations, I find Rafi to be more innovative. Reason being Kishore’s innovations are obvious and overtly flamboyant. I personally do not think there is a great innovation in humming ahead of a song..Rafi’s innovations are way subtler.
I can go song by song, but in the interest of time and space lets focus on one. Do you think the variations in the antara of “Main kahin kavi na ban jayoo” is an MD’s brainchild? Rafi sings every single word differently..When he sings “yeh jhuki jhuki niganen” he stretches Nigahen to portray a slowly drooping eye..When he sings “Lachak” he throws a tongue in the cheek sarcasm..You might rgue that these are aspects of #2, but that’s very fuzzy. Emotive content can be innovative as well.
I have read Salil’s opinion on Rafi as far as “rapidly changing scales” is concerned. But he did not suggest any alternative either. It is true that “Tasveer Teri dil mein” is not within Rafi’s favorite zone, but you must be kidding me when you say Mukesh could have switched scales better. I have already mentioned AR Rahman and Asha’s view on Rafi’s ability to switch back and forth. The best songs that come to my mind in this regard are “Jawaniyaan yeh mast” and “Na ja kahin ab na ja”.. I can only compare Manna/Salil’s “Zindagi kaisi hai paheli” to those.
One big aspect when it comes to #1 is the fluidity of voice. Rafi was amazing in this, to the extent, I still wonder how a male singer can be so fluid. Listen to “Kajalwale nain milake” (Devar/Roshan) and you will understand what I mean. Kishore was hardly as fluid and Mukesh was horrible. Manna had fluidity but somehow it was never well demonstrated in Hindi films (I am a huge fan of Manna De.. But I cannot recall Hindi compositions that compare with manna’s “Ei eto alo” (Alo Amar Alo), or “Jiboney ki pabo na” (Teen Bubaner parey) from bengali movies.
Finally, there is the question of range and genres. Your 3 points are absolutely critical when it comes to judging songs individually…For example, Anup Ghosal can score high on all 3 aspects of the Masoom song but that does not make him the greatest singer ever. I would like to emphasize on the aggregate aspect of Rafi’s contribution that can only be compared with Lata. That can only be judged when you consider all genres, all Music directors, all circumstances. Manna, in an interview, commented how every singer was affected by the change of technology in the 1970s. Kishore was at an advantage because his sonorous voice would overcome the sensitivity of the new microphones..Talat’s quivering voice would be so accentuated that he perished.. Rafi was the only one who could adapt..You can associate Rafi with “Yeh Zindagi ke mele” as well as “Yamma yamma”…Kishore was way too restricted that way..
Am besten lassen den anderen zu sprechen was sie wollen. Aber Muhamed Rafi saab ist No. 1 in singen. Vielen Dank
having seen all replies to my posts, i will deny from replying to those who just want to argue for arguement’s sake. my take on this issue is as follows:
rafi is a great playback singer, undoubtedly, but not as good a classical singer as many here seem to think. his grasp of the nuances of classical music is rudimentary, at best. And i am not even talking about crisp or complex taankari. lata mangeshkar and k l saigal are the only playback singers who come the closest to stand-up to a scrutiny of their classical compositions.
so, once the classical element is taken out of the equation, we can heap praises on him deservedly because his voice, his capability to emote, his diction and pronounciation are all excellent. but the same could be said of kishore. this is because we are now entering into a realm which becomes subjective. if you ask mukesh fans about the emotive power of mukesh’s voice, they will say nobody can match him. and that is something that neither rafi or kk fans can argue about. it’s a personal choice.
no singer is perfect. they have their strengths and weaknesses. rafi is better than kishore in singing some types of songs. but the reverse is also true.
my measuring of a film singer is based on the following short takes:
1. a strong adherence to swara (what we call “technique”) – both shruti and laya. i also put emphasis on how smooth his transition is across registers.
2. his ability as far as the delineation of the emotional content is concerned
3. and finally, his natural ability to improvise and add to a basic tune that was given to him by the MD.
rafi is very good in both 1 and 2, but he still has a weakness in 1. rafi does seem to face some problems where he has to sing rapidly changing scales (this is more commonly seen in western music), and MD’s who incorporate this aspect of western music into their songs – salil and RDB commented on this. Salil, who always preferred mukesh to both rafi and kishore, commented on this when he touched upon a song in the film “Maya” – “Tasveer teri dil mein”. he said rafi took no less than a dozen takes before he got it right. RDB commented on how difficult it was to get rafi to sing “Aaja aaja main hoon pyaar tera” from “Teesri Manzil” the way he wanted. kishore was better in this regard. To those who choose not to believe this, listen to this bengali song “O amar sojoni go” in this link:
http://www.salilda.com/filmsongs/bengali/antarghaat.asp
kishore also had a weakness in 1. He had problems where he had to maintain contours according to a “pattern” that is bound to a classical tune. And that is not because he is found wanting. It’s just that he had to “learn” it and it was not spontaneous for him.
but point 3 is where kishore most scores over rafi. kishore is always able to add a touch of his genius to the tune, adding impromptu improvisations, but always keeping within the structure of the song. many co-singers, MD’s commented on this. i will give a few examples:
in the duet “Aankhon mein kya ji” from “nau do gyarah”, asha bhosle said in an interview that the elongation that ends every kishore part of the song was added on the spot by kishore.
asha sings “rangeen hain mausam”
kishore follows” “tere dum ki bahaar haeeeeeee” the last part -“haeeeeee” was never present in the original tune. but if you listen to it, you will never know it.
RDB mentioned that the humming that precedes “Aanewala pal …” (hmm hmm aaha ha …) was added by kishore.
see how much kishore added to “tum bin jaoon kahan” compared to rafi’s version. give a song to kishore and he will improvise it so much you feel that that is the only way the song can be sung. Even the most pedestrian of tunes and lyrics have been made extra-ordinary by his ingenuity.
i don’t give as much emphasis to the correctness of the language or so-called diction, pronounciation etc.
Post 1019 – Anil
Yes, Rafi ji is the benchmark generally adopted, though it should not be so. This is because rafi ji is greatest and beyond comparison without any doubt. With an exception only to ghantasala no other singer can be compared to rafi. And your remark about debate going on for 250 posts, i request you to take on record only healthy comments and comparisons by knowledgeable fans of rafi sahab and ignore others, because the same would not serve any purpose. But pl. note that such comparisons cannot be made. Can you compare between Lord Rama and Lord Krishna, both being incarnations of almighty.
O K let me share some of my personal experiences and thoughts on our favourite and great rafi sahab.
Whenever you are in a depression mood, switch on a rafi sahab’s melodious number, you will feel relaxed. This has been personally experienced by me ( same has been the experience in case with ghantasala ji also) But I did not get such happiness with any other indian playback singer.
So many times I continue to hear the kashmir ki kali song – ye chand sa roshan chehra, what a great rendering. You feel a special type of ecstasy. Such power of influencing individuals is a gift of god.
Leave the composition and tunes, it is the presentation and singing in the golden voice of rafi ji, which mesmerises any individual and there is no doubt about it. As i already remarked, though other bollywood singers are great, the voice of rafi ji casts a shadow over all other voices, just as a black cloud covers the sky. And the result is pure rain drops to be drunk and enjoyed by any individual.
3 decades have passed, but you can see rafi ji continues to exercise influence on the present day singers. How many singers of today, have such influence, leave influencing but we do not know how many of them have vanished also. Thus, it is beyond doubt that the great rafi ji will continue to exercise supreme influence in the decades to come.
Mr. Anil, you would have got it. Comparison arises only with rafi sahab (though i mentioned in my 1st para that comparisons cannot be made for this great singer) – that is it, there lies the greatness of rafi sahab.
Long live rafi sahab in the hearts of all rafi fans and true music lovers.
Good bye.
1000 post we have crossed. and i am confident that we will cross 2000 post too with persons playing the comparison game in the mohd rafi dot com.
i salute a bengali by the name raju ghosh – who is a die-hard fan of rafi ji. it seems he is less prosperous. but, he will call me each week from calcutta, send me all the articles on rafi ji printed in w.bengal, meet rafi lovers there and report about the vip’s in bengal who are rafi saaheb lovers.
mr.asim khan and his family members are also taking the divine songs of rafi ji – further.
they tell me it’s a rafi world in w.bengal. keep up the good work – rafi lovers.
binu nair
Raghavanji, Yes it’s Gantasalaji that I was referring to.. and that battle (of comparisons) went on for nearly 250 posts….
Personally speaking, Gantasalaji is a (classical) singer first and a play-backer next whereas Rafisahab is a play-backer first and a (all-round) singer next.
Yes, Rafisahab’s voice is as close to perfection as one could imagine.. but tell me.. what made you think that I consider it otherwise?
Mr. Surajit bose saheb,
May I know upto what extent you have learnt hindusthani music. It will be pleasure to discuss about musical technicalities.
Post 1004 – Anil
Which classical singer comparison with rafi you are referring to. I think you should correct it as master playback singer with classical edge. Obviously, you would have got it, it is none other than the great ghantasala master of the south. But one point, I am a great lover of rafi sahab and i do not want to make ignorant comparisons between these two greatest incomparable contemporaries, (as the facts are already known to enlightened people) like some people who are simply making false comparisons here.
Further, let everybody note that rafi sahab possessed the greatest voice in bollywood, especially if you hear his songs from 55 to 70, i feel even lata mangeshkar falls behind rafi sahab. Mohd. rafi sahab’s voice is the voice which is capable of mesmerising any individual. If we carefully hear duets of lata and rafi, i feel rafi sahab excels, though lata ji is fantastic. Hindi songs means remembering mohd. rafi only.
Moreover, mr. Anil, Bose and others, – it is a fact that manna dey had a classical edge over rafi ji, but he did not have that great voice which rafi ji possessed, same goes with kishore kumar, he had a strong voice capable of attracting people, but melody wise rafi ji has an edge not only over kishore but also over other bollywood singers. There should be no doubt about it.
Bose ji, – I respect your knowledge about hindusthani music and i acknowledge your views about classical base of rafi sahab. Bose ji, it is true that there are other playback singers in india who possessed classical edge over rafi ji, but you will agree with me that when it comes to melody and attraction, it is rafi only in bollywood and none else. Great music directors such as shankar jai kishan, naushad etc. have composed great tunes, but those tunes look attractive, because great rafi sahab has sung them. If any other singer from bollywood had sung them, it is sure, they would be good, but not as greater and attractive as the great rafi sahab’s renderings.
post 1012: the song in case is : from film shararat and the song is : “ajeeb dastaan hai ye zindage, kabhi hassa diya kabhi rula diya – sorry for the error.
and op nayyar had duly decided that kishore kumar will be inept at singing “man mora baawra” and the song went to mohd rafi and lip synched by kishore kumar.
binu nair, mumbai….
ref post 1008:
Dear unknown saab, you have made some very interesting points. But please don’t mention anil biswas on this forum; I hope other rafians would stop doing that too. There’s no point in giving importance to a person who had very little to do with our rafi saab. By the way, are you from baluchistan?
binuji,
Congratulations for scoring the 1000th run. Your comment on Bengalis is well taken, but I have to admit that they are not what they used to be. When we were growing up, people used to talk about songs like “hari om” and “madhuban mein radhika” in hushed tones. If a child said anything untoward, the mother would say, “beta so ja, nahin to gabbar aa jayega”. Lekin zamana badal gaya — aajkal sab kuchh chalta hai. The fm channels in Calcutta play rd-kishore-asha round the clock; s. d. burman’s parichay is as rd’s dad. “bachna aye haseeno” is paraded as a great romantic song. Heard someone is making a film with that name. And the yardstick for classical songs is “ek chatur naar”. Raju bharatan has thrown an open challenge to rafi buffs based on this song. It makes you wonder if “paag ghungroo bnadh kar meera nache re” is indeed not better than “madhuban mein radhika nache re”.
Actually I want to thank Mr.Bose… Because of him, I’ve learnt so much about our beloved Rafisahab and his singing/songs from all the knowledgable gentlemen here..
Haldar sir, who is the ‘Kanchanjunga’? Is it the superb singer from Bengal who underachieved just because there was Rafisahab around? Or is it the usual (lady) suspect? I’m sure you are not referring to the singer who’s the best in “y” songs.
Dhaniram sir, You are absoultely on the dot.. We should thank God that Rafi sahab didn’t go too deep into classical music but instead chose to grace common folks with his wide array of incredibly beautiful songs.
kishore kumar is the biggest classical singer – in the world. true. very true.
but, for a classical song : man mora baavra, kishore tried in vain to get the right nuances up to 4.00 p.m. on the recording day, failed, and retreated requesting shankar jaikishan to bring in their favourite singer for the song.
mohd rafi walks in minutes past 4.00 p.m. records the song and leaves home around 6.30 p.m.
there are eleven songs picturised on Kishore sung by our inimitable mohd rafi – not one or two – to call it a fluke.
yes kishore kumar is a good singer, a great person who regarded mohd rafi as the ultimate in singing.
but, his fans has to understand kishore kumar much better than a mohd rafi
for rafi is a legend who has raised the bar for playback singing at such a level that only one can dream of reaching there.
Kishore lovers please make your favourite singers site – active,, then stronger. and this classical person needs to show his singing talents to prove that he has some knowledge of h.f.m and the hindi language.
binu nair, rafi foundation, mumbai.
Dear All,
This is a kind of unending debate which will lead us nowhere. Refering to some people who say Kishore was better than rafi, the fact is that he was not. Rafi had a better Range, Controle and Tone quality which none of u have mentioned perhaps, or you must have. My question is how many people out of us have heard Rafi,Kishore Da live on the stage. Should i say that singing in Studio is very different from live. And that is where you come to know the real caliber. But that is not the question here. The question is who is better?? difficult to answer as every single person will have a different choice according to ones Taste,experiince, and Knowledge. Have you heard people saying that Hamesh Rishamis is the best singer. What conclusion do u draw there? Most of the times the singer u listen to the most becomes your best. majority of u r not evn ready to listen to any other singers and have a biased opinions. That is what is happening with all of u. if I have to answer who is better? Rafi or Kishore, thn i must say that Rafi had a better comand. Those who dont believe this r the like of people who say Hamesh Reshmya is the best singer of all.
since Mr.Bose is unrelenting in pushing his agenda in the most distasteful manner brandishing plain lies all along and propagating personal tastes and biases as if those were the standard,allow me to repudiate his writings in the only language he seems to understand.
Mr.Bose: I could take your way of reasoning and forcefully prove the same things that you have set out to prove,albeit,on a donkey and here’s how.Please note this is not to compare the donkey with any one else but just a way of exposing the fallacies in your arguments.
I will make a 100 min recording of the donkey braying and research each of the sounds made by it and study it on a musical scale.
I am bound to find several points where the braying has traversed a range of octaves and reached very high and very low pitches as well.What is not of significance is what happens during and after the octave has been reached whether the tune was intact,the diction was perfect,the desired emotion was conveyed or whether reaching that octave was needed at all in the first place.Since Im just cherry picking certain instances and writing about it one would never know all this until he listens to all of the 100 min recording.Ofcourse the donkey doesnt have to care about how the braying fits into a storyline,an actors mannerisms etc. as long as it passes muster with Mr.Bose’s ‘hearing’ he will write about it.Ofcourse,the donkey can also make all silly sounds which no other animal can make or need make but by your parameters of judgement this is a natural talent.I would then give this type of singing a fashionable name to market this feature further and also have a website going by that name!
Next I will definitely find certain instances where the donkey has brayed in a slightly feminine voice and term it as falsetto.It doesnt matter if the falsetto is so jarring to the ear or can be replicated by any ordinary mimicry artist but since its called a falsetto it has to be a great acheivement.
I hope you can see where Im going with this.I will stop at this point before I start sounding insulting to anyone which I dont intend to.
To elucidate my point further,please listen to ‘Kuchh to log kahenge’ on the earphones and concentrate only on the voice.Count the number of times the taal is missed,the number of time he goes off key esp at the end of stanzas (eg. rainaaaaaaa,nainaaaaa,huiiiiieee),the pronunciation is almost rubbish througouht,bi instead of bhi,suboh instead if subah, overall its quite labored and tiring to the ear inspite of a beautiful tune…I must admit there are some sparks of brilliance though and it could be relative.
I just listened to ‘Koi humdum na raha’ and what is that echo-padding being provided at the end of the higher octaves????listen to ‘ae nazaaron na hason’ for eg…there are several instances of this echo-padding in the same song..you had earlier used this song as the falgship song to prove kk´s classical abilities..classical singing on crutches it looks like…gives credence to the ‘studio generated sounds for kk’ controversy doesnt it???
in the anamika song – its ‘hriday se lagaaya’ not ‘riday se lagaaya’,also its not ‘kaahe man samajh n paaya’ its ‘kahe man samajh ‘Na’ paaya’ you see its difficult to go down with the word ‘samajh’ and immediately pick up to say ‘Na’ hence the half attempt.
These are kinds of things that separates the good from the greatest in hfm.I could write reams on this but its not my style to criticise unnecessarily and ofcourse i dont feel the need to compare.
Finally,i wouldd like to say those who stay in glass houses shouldnt throw stones at bullet proof ones…
bose babu,
your assertions are all futile, stands no where and not at all acceptable to me at least, please make a note that the greatest talent from your part of country, who was mentor to kishore, always kept rafi on the highest esteem…
there is hardly any comparison b/w them, rafi sahab is/was/always miles ahead of competition..
——————————————————————————————-
to all::
how about comparing kishore da to hemant da on the basis of quality of their songs??
i believe these two numbers of hemant da are enough to topple all the quality numbers of kishore da:
1.ya dil ki suno dunia walo
2.jane wo kaise log the jinke pyar ko pyar mila.
bhajans the best Bhajan ever wrote in Bollywood was wrote by Muslim,music by Muslim and singed by Muslim,that is a gift of god in which god show us that we are only human………………………
Dear bose please be honest think as human
what can we say about that Mohd Rafi was not great boz anil biswas don’t like him but we fogot what said by madan Mohan,OpN,lata,Asha,Mannay Day,LP and many many more who know about music more than you and me!!!!!!!???
God help these people please,Thank you God ago 28 years ago still Mohd Rafi at the top
bhajans the best Bhajan ever wrote in Bollywood was wrote by Muslim,music by Muslim and singed by Muslim,that is a gift of god in which god show us that we are only human………………………
Dear bose please be honest think as human
what can we say about that Mohd Rafi was not great boz anil biswas don’t like him but we fogot what said by madan Mohan,OpN,lata,Asha,Mannay Day,LP and many many more who know about music more than you and me!!!!!!!???
God help these people please,Thank you God tago 28 years ago still Mohd Rafi at the top
ref post 992
Dear Surajit,
If you like kishore and saigal better than rafi, that’s fine with us. But when you come to this site and make strong claims, you should try to be factually correct. From your knowledge of the urdu language, it’s quite clear that you belong to the younger generation, otherwise you would have known a thing or two about the hurdles rafi had to face initially. The singer who had the maximum advantage when it came to urdu was talat, and that’s one of the reasons why madan mohan, the king of ghazals, stuck to him till the late 50s. What mr. nasir ali has written in his post is absolutely true; khandwa is much closer to lucknow than kotla sultan singh is and there is no reason to believe that rafi had an advantage over kishore with respect to that language. If you get a chance, see Ashok Kumar in mere mehboob and you’ll find him conversing in impeccable urdu. There’s another bengali, whose surname is bat-ball and who has delivered some of rafi’s gems on screen. But most people don’t even know he is bengali.
The maulana who helped lata pick up urdu was actually sent to her by our rafi saab. You might wonder how we know all these things; that’s because many of us have been following rafi saab for over 40 years and we used to keep track of every tidbit of his life. That’s why your post comparing jhum-jhum-jhumroo kishore with hari-om rafi was an affront to many of us. If you want to compare rafi and kishore on the basis of ykb, dostana and muqaddar ka sikandar, I have no problems. Honestly, let me tell you one thing; you can take out rafi’s entire ka-lp-rd oeuvre in the 70s and his work will remain unaffected.
Now let’s talk about some of the md’s who you said did not work with rafi. One of them you mentioned is husnlal bhagatram. It is clear from your email that you were born much after independence, otherwise you’d have known that the song that rafi saab sang within hours after gandhi ji passed away was composed by this duo. Since you like saigal saab, let me also point to another composition of this duo sung by a young rafi in saigal style (ek dil ke tukde hazar huye):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSB7PLsbsVo
This song was recorded 60 years ago. By the way, do you have any idea how many husnlal bhagatram compositions rafi sang? What all the saigal bhakts — lata, mukesh and kishore — could only dream of, rafi did in his early teens; he met the legend and entertained the audience when the microphone failed. Not only that, he fulfilled his dream of singing with the legend. And saigal told the young rafi, “the keys to the kingdom are yours”. This is history, not the kind of bakhwas that one usually encounters in a forum like pancham’s, or the kind monica darling and her chela raju bharatan keep spreading.
I appreciate your knowledge of classical music. Since you and your gurus have found so many faults with rafi’s rendition, why don’t some of you record “man tadapat” and put it up on youtube? Address all the problems in rafi’s rendition and let us all appreciate how a perfect rendition sounds like. We are all waiting for someone to surpass rafi.
Unless provoked I don’t go after kishore, whom I admire as a singer, just as I admire a Himalayan peak. But then there’s Mt. Everest, which towers above every other peak; at some distance is the beautiful Kanchanjunga, stunningly beautiful in the reflection of the sunrise, but still a little shorter than the one and only Everest.
When kishore da came to Calcutta three years after rafi saab passed away, the compere started the show with the following lines:
gurur brahma
gurur vishnu
gurur deva maheshwara
….
If you hear these words in rafi’s voice, it will transport you to a different world; not a single singer would be able to bring out the effect that rafi did with these sanskrit words. It is not without reason that manna da said that rafi saab was an institution by himself. And kishore da understood that better than most of his fans ever will.
Binu sir:
Right on the dot… You have described this species beautifully… I also run a mile when confronted with these ‘puritans’… I’ve listened to some of them trying to sing film songs in TV and have felt like shouting at them to stop it and do something they are good at (like telling the world that Rafi sahab isn’t much of a singer or advising people how to sing etc.). Recently one such gentleman sang ‘Chaahoonga mein tujhe…’ in a (Malayalam) channel show attended by K J Yesudas sir.. and what a mess he made of that grand song…. Yesudas sir had to be at his diplomatic best to applaud him at the end of the song…
It’s really bizarre… Some months ago, there was this Rafi V a (specific) classical singer debate… now we have complex Rafi V (Kishore+classical singers) contest… It’s pretty understandable, for KK alone is not going to win the battle .. so why not throw in these ‘real classical singers’ to it?
Come on… Rafi had to sing classical stuff like a Pandit/ Ustaad, qawaalies like a Nusret saab, gazals like Mehndi Hassan saab, jaaz/ pop like Michael Jackson and he had to be a non-muslim and still sing these well? Only then could he be labelled greatest? And some other singer just had to put some emotion to it and yodel and he could rival or surpass Rafisahab? What a logic…. Hats-off…
Mr Bose:
“Man Tarpat” has become the epitome of Malkauns in Hindi film music. The “jarring” notes that you mentioned are so subjective, that they better not be discussed under any technical light. This song has passed the scrutiny of two puritans-Naushad and Bade Ghulam Ali himself, so it better not be touched by lesser mortals. Talking of Naushad, one anecdotal proof of Rafi’s range and versatility lies in the fact that he was the favorite of both the biggest puritans (Naushad and Khayyam) and the biggest populists (Laxmikant Pyarelal and Shankar Jaikishan).
You can slice and dice Rafi as much as you can, but in aggregate terms he will always prevail. In another thread I had asked anyone to list the top 3 film singers in each genres and find if there is any genre that Rafi does not figure in top 3. You can have point attributes where Manna or Kishore or Mukesh score, but again, not in the aggregate.
Rafi’s greatest strength was in the “mahoul” (ambience) that he created by his punch mixed with sweetness, complemented by the diction. To most listeners, that’s more important than dissecting every taan. To Rafi, the classical approach was not an end in itself, it was just a means to attaining the end. That’s why the Mukesh song “Matwali Naar” is just an OK song for me..It may be a decent rendition of “Bihaag” raaga, but that’s about it.. One can hardly feel what’s going on in the movie from that rendition.
You also credited Kishore for bringing the best out of mediocre music directors like Bappi Lahiri and Rajesh Roshan. You are correct, Kishore had the best song with them. But best of mediocre is still mediocre. Take the Shaarabi songs or the Alag Alag songs..That’s what is called “jarring”..Compare the two Darbari songs “Kabhi bekasi ne maara” and “Raha Gardishon mein hardam” and you will know what I mean. Leaving the “jarring” part aside, I could never fathom what mood the former was supposed to convey. Well to those who could not guess (I think there are many among those who play that song in the Kolkata festivals), it was supposed to be a “sad” song..Pardon me-I could never get past the mukhda of “Kabhi bekasi ne” and I could never stop listening to “Raha Gardishon mein”..
myk
thanks a lot for your appreciation of my views on rafi sahib’s supremacy in the field of music.Music is indivisible and its purpose is to create a mood.in our ancient treatises on music,there is detailed exegisis of nine rasas,that is nine types of emotions.A classical singer usually specialises in just one rasa.It requires tremendous training and technical skill.But quite often overkill in technical efficiency kills the spirit of music.classical musicians themselves hold divergent views regarding sur and taal.singers of one gharana do not consider singers of other gharanas even singers.In a recent interview ustad raza khan (if am recalling the first name correctly),the grandson of bade ghulam ali khan sahib,narrated how the great maestro had faced hostile criticism born out of jealousy for his great thumri voh jo hum mein tum mein karaar tha tumhein yaad ho ki na yaad ho.raza sahib said that he himself didn’t get credit for his own achievements because of vested interests.It will not be out place here to mention when rafi sahib’s classical skills are being challenged that bade ghulam ali sahib was the first great maestro to recognise and encourage rafi’s potential and in the initial stages rafi got classical training from him and ustad allaudin sahib.After shifting to Bombay,rafi sahib continued his classical training.So he had sufficient training to be able to sing filmy classical songs with great aplomb and,at the same time,was not a professional classical singer for which we must thank god.We don’t know what his contribution would have been as a pure classical singer but we know for certain that as a playback singer he created such unsurpassed melody and beauty in all genres(rasas) that we can get a complete experience of the entire range of music just by listening to his songs.Of course,there has never been scope for khyal in films.and i know that khyal can be very tiresome to listen to unless it is sung by a really great singer.some classicists are not ready to include even thumri and dadra in classical music.what wonder then that classical songs in films are frowned upon by the orthodox.But let us not forget that when man tadpat was released it was appreciated by many connoisseurs of classical music as a perfect rendition of raag malkauns.
when i say that you have to listen only to rafi to get a complete experience of music,i have in mind something as random as the following:
1.mahfil se uth jaane walo tum logon par kya ilzaam (melancholy.can you think of anything by lata of this kind?)
2.subhha na aayee sham na aayee jis din teri yaad na aayee.( nostalgia)
3.na jhatko zulf se paani yeh moti phoot jaayenge(romance)
4.naache man mora magan dhigda deegee (folksy celebration )
5.nain lad jaayeen hain to manvama kasak hoibe kari (folksy romance)
6.ai watan ai watan hum ko teri kasam teri raahon mein jaan tak loota jaayenge (sacrificial patriotism.I doubt if lata can replicate that bass in this song)
7.ai baharein baage dunya chand roz (philosophy)
8.saaz ho tum awaz hoon main,tum veena ho main hoo taar (pure classical without taans and gamaks,which unless you are classically trained can be very boring )
I listen to ustad amir ali,ustad bade ghulam ali,dagar brothers,ustad salamat ali and nazakat ali,ustad amanat ali and all other great classicists with great respect.One can’t by any means belittle their great achievements.But I wish to affirm that rafi sahib has reached out to a much much wider audience giving the same profound experience of music.For this reason i regard him as the greatest singer in living memory.
My e-mail id is:
dogra_suresh@yahoo.co.in
myk, i shall be glad to hear from you and all others.
the classical singers could be a success on their turf but a “big failure” when they come to comment or sing – h.f.s.(hindi film songs).
to show their “superiority”, they will criticise any singer,(including mohd rafi) or a lata , sing very poorly when given a stage and will flaunt gimmicks during the singing session (which could be easily detected).
as puritans of classical music they must “never” transgress their areas of music as they will tend to be “confused” and partial like mr.surajit bose.
There are some “very sincere musicians and singers of the classical genre” who are living a nobel life promoting our art and culture. they are few, exceptional and great men women.
I am writing this to request clasical puritans to stick to their art and never pollute the mohd rafi dot com which is a sincere site of legend mohd rafi lovers.
Binu Nair, Rafi Foundation….Mumbai.