True Voice – Mohd Rafi
The following article was brought to my notice when Sharad posted it on MAS. The article has been trimmed down a bit keeping afloat Rafi details. However, anyone interested can go visit the source at http://tfmpage.com/forum/4980.6302.04.57.19.html
I am Swaminatha Iyer and I am 78 years old. I hail from Tiruchi and I am a part of music associations in Tiruchi, M’as as well as in West Bengal and Maharashtra.
I think it is wrong to condemn music or artists on either side of Vindhyas. Our Indian music is one of the few which has not been cleaned off by the western music though there has always been a influence. It speaks a lot of the richness of our music. Sometime back director of MTV had said that MTV westernized the music wherever it went but in India , MTV had to be Indianized for it to be accepted. A lot of this credit goes to the Indian film music.
I have been fortunate to have close personal association with Rafi, Sirkali, TMS, Dr. BMK, Kishore, SPB & KJY, PS, Mannadey and the one and only Lata Mangeshkar.
Comparisons are bound to come, but almost every artist or I have met considers Lata to be beyond comparison. Her talents are beyond anyone’s reach. Even Sirkazi used to talk of her singing like a die-hard fan as do countless others.
Now coming to the Rafi-SPB discussion. It might be difficult to convince an South Indian to believe Rafi is the better and at the same time Rafi crowd will never believe any other male singer comes anywhere nearer. There is one more mobile crowd, which is well conversant with Hindi and some south Indian language. Majority of them tilt to either Rafi or Kishore.
During one of my stays in M’as I had stayed with SPB. While talking of true voices he said, I don’t feel like half a singer when listening to Rafi. True voice is not a tech term but many in circle use it. Perfect example would be lata, but to understand consider our own PS who within her range is superb. People who do not have such true voices can never do justice to original. They generally underplay many parts of the song or fake it with bass/superficial singing. True voices make people like Sirkazi, Nusrat Fateh Ali khan, Lata… Inimitable. However since Sirkazi and Nusrat did not have the filmy voices their “real” following is limited to their local arena.
In addition to the true voice if the singer has a very good voice then in “most” cases he/she can better songs of others. It is this combination which makes Rafi stand out among the other male singers. There are many here who seem to have mistaken notions on a good bass and also on high pitch.
Bryan Adams does not require a monster bass in “Summer of 69” to sound real manly. It is the punch which gives that feel and that is decided only by the comfort level in most ranges (that is by what your throat can support). This you CAN never disguise with bass. Since people have talked about lack of manly voice viz. a viz. Rafi it was necessary to bring this point out. I have had the fortune of listening to most singers in studio and some times without a mike, practicing with MD’s.When Lata or Rafi do, the level is so high that people hesitate to even hum. It felt silly to sing in their presence (and it feels silly when someone says his voice isn’t manly).
In RD’s tribute when SPB sang “Aaja Aaja mein hoon” or “Chaand mera dil” it sounded only sweet and lacked punch if you compare with Rafi’s original.
Yesu once told me God has been partial to Rafi. He said “god gift term anavasyamaa romba common aa ippo use aardu”.. but idu Rafi kee thaan 100% porundu”. This person could sing “as intricately as a lady without sounding thin”, “cover any mood”, “versatility odey perfect example Rafi”. Yesu said most important is the comfort level over ranges which makes you feel God has been partial to Rafi. (But Of course in Rafi’s early career (1950’s) the voice was relatively feeble).
To people exposed to Rafi’s talent, these or any amount of praise can only seem less. I just wish he was alive and you people could get a live chance to hear him. Probably you can get hold of the DD album for the Geet Gaata Chal series where the first four episodes were dedicated to Rafi. Rafi is on camera singing “O Duniya Ke Rakwaaley” and many other songs. If you see and hear the last part you will realize why SPB said “impossible”. I think particularly those people who have talked about scales w.r.t Rafi should see this album. Its a known fact in industry that Rafi ruled high pitch and there is no male singer better in switching notes so easily. There are artists who can go beyond but then they sound strained or they don’t have pleasant voices when they venture into those territories.
Many singers of today are his compulsive followers. But they end up inheriting only part of his quality. Md. Aziz ended up with a sad voice. Mahendra Kapoor with a thick nasal voice. Anwar with a nasal voice. Sonu Nigam with a feminine voice. Rafi neither had a soft voice nor a heavy (bass) voice he had a good voice. Importantly did not strain at high notes, and voice if at all only became better at higher notes. If you see him singing it will remind you of Janaki. However diff the song is or the note is he will be smiling and singing. It is unthinkable that he cannot sing something.
There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo” song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect. There are lot of other songs of SPB where this great singer has played with songs in total control. You will find most south Indian singers who have had a good exposure say that it is beneficial to learn Hindustani as it gives better breath control and improves expression.
Rafi was not only able to glide over a song, the important thing was that he could express each word/sound when singing. It is one thing to hold your breath, start and reach a crescendo (high note), as like in “Shankara”, “Anbey (Yennai kaan villaye)” it is different ballgame if you have to do it from low notes or suddenly switch notes. With practice the former can be done, latter requires a special gift. Rafi had a natural ability to do the latter. In “Tum joh mil gaye ho” there is such a transition in the “karwaan mil gaya” part. I have never seen anyone do justice to most of his songs in my life time. In “parda hai parda” quawaali the similar part is “kar doon to, Akbar mera naam”. In fact most of his songs will have these specialty as it was his natural ability to sing freely in a wide range at the same time giving that extra expression.
Whereas SPB takes us to heavens with “Idu oru pon maali”,”Ilaya nila” “bisiladarenu”(kannada), when he sings Rafi’s song it lacks the punch or expression, though it has the bass. But at least most agree that SPB does some justice to original, whereas most others murder the original.
One trivial point I would like to add is that singing in Hindi is harder. There are more “JHA”,”CHA”,”HA”,”THA”, “KHA”,”JA”,”FA”. These take away the breath faster. The more expressive you are the more air you are using up. Just singing from Nabhi will not help, your throat also needs to do a lot, for singing in Hindi, Bengali etc. SPB makes you fall in love with his south Indian songs but same cannot be said about his Hindi songs. If you just glide through words having these sounds, you will never be expressive. Doing this as well as reaching high notes is not easy. Rafi had this gift and that’s why it is difficult to imagine anyone else in his shoes. Song “Chalkaaye jaam” has so much expression that it is unthinkable how anyone can sing it. When Rafi switches to a high note with “Mitwaa” in the song “Chaahunga mein tughey” you cannot replicate it with bass. Most others will sound as if they are shouting in such cases. That man’s throat had the ability to freely sing at such levels.
Versatility is not just the ability to sing in various styles, more important is how good you are singing in those styles. You have lot of Ghazal singers today but when Rafi sings a Ghazal you will sit up and take notice. You don’t have to be part of the Ghazal listeners crowd. This is one important aspect. Whatever style you sing you should be able to pull the common man to listen and not just a particular crowd. Pick “parda hai parda” or any qawalli and it will stand tall among other qawalli’s.
Variety is amazing :
songs of Guru Dutt’s Khagaz key phool or songs like abhi naa jao chod key, Aaja teri yaad aayi, Aaj kal mein dhal gaya, Aaj kal terey merey pyaar, Aasmaan sey aaya farishta, Dil ney pyaar kiya hai, Deewana mujh saa nahi, Din dhal jaaye, Duniya paagal hai, Jaane walon jara, Dil joh na kaha saka, Dil key jharokon mein, Dil kaa bhavar, Chalkey teri aakkhon sey, Kar chaley hum fida, khilona jaan kar tum, Woh jab yaad aay, Woh hain jara khafa, Vaadian mera daaman, Pathar key sanam, Chaand mera dil, Main zindagi kaa saath, Mainey poocha chaand sey, sun sun jaalima, Koi jab raah na paay, hum to chaley pardes, badan pey sitaarey, laal chadi maidaan, Tum jo mil gaye, O meri shaahey, Sau baar janam lengey, Tum mujhey yoon bhula, Tumney mujhey dekha, Terey merey sapney, Tumny pukaara hum chaley aay
Name a situation/mood and Rafi’s song will be there on the top.
Swami
post 1098 arun ji….
yes . we must never compare mohd rafi with other singers and say the other singer is better. true mohd rafi fans must ask their hearts how many times they have done this – knowing ly and unknowing ly.
as i said earlier some elements “chalti gaadi mein chad jaate hai ” ( enters the mohd rafi bandwagon to prove there are better singers ) but fails and then beat a hasty retreat or use foul language – when they run short of sound logic.
in a democracy and open debate this can be expected.
binu nair. mumbai.
Mr. Arun:
I’m afraid I don’t have the answer and I suppose only the author of the article could explain, others can only take guesses.
Anyway, personally speaking Ghantasalaji (great as he is) is not the South’s Rafi, the title belongs to K.J.Yesudas sir. As I’ve mentioned before Ghantasalaji is a different type of singer from what Rafisahab was… This South Indian great was technically and classically very accomplished (he used to compose so many songs, both filmy as well as classical). On the other side his voice wasn’t the kind which goes with the handsome hunks of the Hindi filmdom (though it went well with the South Indian actors), nor was he too comfortable in the fast-paced, breezy numbers. When this Rafisahab V Ghantasalaji debate was at its peak in this site I happened to ask some Telugu friends (all musically inclined and musically gifted) on their take on the subject. They were all rather surprised that such a debate had indeed taken place. And the universal opinion was that Rafisahab cannot really be compared (when speaking of all-round brilliance). Just think of it, on one side he’s being compared with a classical maestro (Ghantasalaji) and on the other, with a peoples’ singer (Kishoreda). How versatile he must be.., then.
Mr Anil, post 1095
Correct. I agree with you. But till today i could not understand one thing. Perhaps you and other rafi lovers could clarify my doubt. This original article written by swaminathan iyer is quite interesting especially bringing out the greatness of rafi sahab, which is indeed true and no doubt about it. But my doubt is, he has mentioned all the southern singers, comparing to rafi ji. Why he did not mention ghantasala ji anywhere (who was much famous) in his article, I am not able to understand. I am not clear whether swaminathan himself felt confused between ghantasala and rafi or he might have thought that bringing ghantasala into picture would land into a controversy, i am not clear till today. could anybody clarify.
My request to all readers is not to bring any comparison between rafi sahab and ghantasala ji, but to clarify my only genuine doubt tha when all the southern singers have been mentioned in the original article, how the so acclaimed southern mohd. rafi missed the list.
Good song, Mr.Sudip and Rafisahab has sung it as only he can. BTW, this song reminds me of the more famous ‘hum ko tumahari ishque….’ in certain parts… is it just me or anyone else with similar opinion?
excellent find Sudip ji @ 1092…
RAfi saabs singing itself is music to the ear…
come to think of it..there are several songs in the 50s 60s where all the Rafi ssab had was a tabla accompanyment or a faint violin backing while the weight of the song was carried on his vocal capabilities alone…but this one really takes the cake!..thanks for the post…
Ref: Post 1086:
P.Suseela is a marvelous singer. Her name has been mentioned by several experts (including the gentleman who’s written the original article here) when speaking about true voice. Indeed she is irreplaceable and inimitable. In many ways she’s similar to Talat saab; sweet, true voice but limited vocal range (and mood range).
Dear Bose when your in a dark room when u on the light you feel that light has more power from SUN light………..I want you to marks on singers as I am doing.
1.mohd Rafi 100%
2,Lata Ji 98%
3,Ashi Ji 90%
4 Mannay Day 90%
5,Mukesk 85%
still KK is not in my list,I tham more than 60% of people agree with me but but no one be able to make a list without Mohd rafi.would you please do the same but be honest only 1%..
this very thick skinned visitor should first ponder whether h.m.v. kishore kumar’s songs would have a longer longevity comparted to the songs of talat mahmud, mukesh and manna dey.
KK would lag behind by miles in any comparison as the above mentioned singers have such soulful songs to their credit that it will last for another few hundered years.
the other point i would like to stress is that kishore kumar himself if alive would have asked the moderator to throw out this gentlemans posts questioning mohd rafi’s supremacy to the seas and told this bandhu : “stop this nonsence acts – at once”.
I appeal to this person not to downgrade Kishore Kumar by his fancy thoughts(using disguises of a music expert) in the eyes of mohd rafi and music lovers.
and this mans posts also reminds me of a mumbaiya quote : “chalti gaadi mein chad jaana”, meaning getting in to the bandwagon of a mohd rafi train to show to the world, kishore kumar is a better singer !
this man – folks, has given us much mirth and laughter . thanks. now lets all relax, enjoy his jokes and listen to some quality songs of mohd rafi, lata, asha, suman, saighal, talat, mukesh,manna dey and kishore kumar – not necessarily in that order.
binu nair, rafi foundation, mumbai…. binus2000@hotmail.com
A song with zero music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqwtKcvknC0
It is amazing how Rafi manages to scale with ZERO,I repeat, ZERO music.
Please read my last line as : KK is NOT even close to Rafi Saheb.
Mr. Bose doesn’t know anything about good music, he is a jealous man, but fact is fact that Mohammed Rafi Saheb is the best singer ever India has produced. KK is even close to Rafi Saheb.
xxx
who can have the cheek to compare sublime melody of hemantda with jarring noises of kishoreda ?
haldarji
you are absolutely right.everybody is facilely dismissive of mukeshbhai.whatever be kishoreda’s touted talents,mukesh is far ahead in quality of output.you have challenged bose da to cite 20 classical songs of kishoreda to match as many of mukeshbhai. shri bose says that he is not a fan of rdb. i challenge him to cite a hundred best songs of kishore from pre rdb era and i shall cite an equal number of those of mukesh to prove the superiority of the latter by matching each song.
Besides rafi,the other male greats are talat,mukesh,hemant and manna( when he is at his best), others are just passable.these penetrate deep into the heart and soul of the listener while kishoreda only scratches the surface.
do you know kk had 4 wifes?and once he changed his name?only card you kk fans had that Lata Ji please try to use her,with kk you not be able.
As u said ur are not Rd fan!!!!!!!!!!?should be SD or may I know?
Anil Biswas was at top in 1940’s if am not wrong because he didn’t use Mohd Rafi he went down.Anil used Mohd rafi for 12 songs and last on 1958 when Mohd rafi was at top but anil biswas used KK only for six songs only 2 films!!!!!???Anil Baswas Ji liked Talat Ji do you think that Talat Ji was better singer than M Rafi?If yes Do you know whay Talat Ji said about Mohd Rafi.
when people who know about music they speak they put Naushand and OPN list of 5 best MD..
All cards in our hand
singh saab – posts 1071 &1075
True are your words. Rafi ji’s renderings which you have posted in 1075 are incomparable renderings. As you said, Kishore kumar, leave similar renderings, he did not have even renderings close to the above numbers of our dear rafi sahab. Yeh chand sa roshan chehra ,and other numbers posted therein are really great numbers – incomparable.
The telugu solo song is not opening. The other one what a duet sir, I was out of the world on hearing it. The duet and the music is simply mind blowing. Truly, ghantasala ji also is a very very great and incomparable singer. P suseela is also great in the song. Simply perfect and melodious song.
Thank you very much for the great songs posted in post 1075. I got happy sleep on hearing all the above renderings. I heard all of the songs 4 times. Thanks again sir for your efforts on spreading true music to all the true lovers of music. keep it up singh saab.
mr.bose: please listen to ” takdeer banata hoon, khoone jigar se re, khoon jigar se………. and tell us whether k.k. could have sung it as fluently as mohd rafi.
i think that if mohd rafi and kishore kumar were alive today, the composers would have taken mohd rafi for the song. if, kishore kumar would have been selected by any chance, KK would have called up mohd rafi and invited him to the studios. then, he would have told the producer/composer team – that this song belongs to mohd rafi and left the scene just as he had done this on some occassions. mohd rafi would have finally sung it, anyway – making it one of the treasures of hfm.
binu nair,
Here is a comment made by an Anonymous person from an article I came across on the net, that talked about Rafi and Kishore:
“If you know and understand music in an unbiased fashion, you would know that as a singer, Kishore is/was a nobody compared to Rafi. It’s a fact that can’t be changed regardless of any amount of media push. Such was the greatness of Rafi, that no singer, however great individually, can be compared to him.”
This person is absolutely correct, and so are the countless number of people who echo this statement, and other statements in similar fashion.
As Ilayaraaja said “Rafi is Rafi”.
ref post 1046:
venkat ji, glad to see you back on this forum. Where have you been all this time? I read with interest your observation of rafi saab’s carnatic-style rendition of the chacha chowdhary song. Let me try to give a possible explanation; you might call it a wild guess. rafi saab was trained in the kirana gharana under ustad abdul waheed khan and the other stalwarts subhro had rightly mentioned in his post (dhani ram ji, please note that he did not take talim from Baba Allaudin Khan, who belonged to the maihar gharana). Now the kirana gharana imbibed a lot of influences from carnatic music, which maybe why rafi saab excelled in such carnatic-style songs.
Rafi was a “phenomenon”, and yet people want to associate Kishore and others in his league and class, which is pure nonsense.
ref post 1063:
what mr. shailendra mehta has written in his post is absolutely true. I haven’t read what is in the link, but I remember this chandan mitra guy; he writes for airline magazines. He either concocted the interview or put words into manna da’s mouth. It seems that our esteemed visitor has moved from urdu to husnlal-bhagatram to k. l. saigal to raju bharatan to chandan mitra. With a few more years of classical training, he will definitely become a pandit.
I heard manna da last two years back at a concert. During that concert, he mentioned rafi saab’s name four times. After the concert ended, I went backstage and talked to him for a few minutes. Great man and still going strong. And one of rafi saab’s oldest friends.
It’s a pure “joke” to associate any singer in the league and class of Rafi and Lata because Rafi and Lata are miles ahead of all singers. These two are truly the greatest singers of all time, no two ways about that.
“i have never claimed that kishore is the best singer. if you read my posts i have always stressed that lata and saigal were the best singers we had. i was indicating that kishore is as good as rafi in terms of ability. it is just incidental that he didn’t get a chance to sing as many varieties of songs as rafi or mukesh.”
That’s fine, your opinion is your opinion, but I don’t understand how you can term a singer like Saigal in the same breath as Lata. On the other hand, it was only Lata who could come very close to Rafi, as the total singer. Kishore was never in Rafi’s league in terms of ability. It’s like comparing the North pole to the South pole. Kishore was very limited, even SDB told him point blank, that he could never be a Rafi. Regardless of what music personalities, or you and I say (and by the way the majority of music personalities, fans etc. all hail Rafi as the greatest), it is so clear that Rafi was miles ahead of Kishore and every other singer. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.
Your incidental point is also not true. Kishore had the chance to sing every type of song from the 50’s to the 80’s. It’s just that he was very limited in his abilities so he did not get that chance. Don’t use the “didn’t get a chance” argument as an excuse for Kishore’s lack of abilities, its illogical and its definitely not true. How come RDB didn’t give his qawwali’s to Kishore ?. How come Madan Mohan didn’t use Kishore for his ghazals ?. How come Naushad didn’t give any classical songs to Kishore ?. There lies your answer.
Saigal was no where near Rafi or Lata in terms of ability. Had he continued singing into the 50’s, he would have been an “also-ran”. He didn’t have the range nor the ability nor the versatility to be the best singer. I don’t understand how you can bring up a singer of his calibre in this discussion. Every time I listen to Saigal, I fall asleep (no offence).
“if you think about it, even mukesh sang more types of songs than kishore. using that arguement, one could say that even mukesh is a better singer than kishore.”
Which he definitely is, not only based on more types of songs, but just ability itself. The ability to cover many genres, shows one’s versatile nature. Ofcourse it is a big part of being a really good singer, as opposed to being an average singer. Kishore doesn’t have any good ghazals, classical songs, bhajans, patriotic songs etc. which shows he lacked a lot of abilities, and yet you want to associate him with having a lot of ability ?. It doesn’t make sense, and what you’re saying is definitely not true.
“all of you seem to want to make rafi the best in every category. according to you, rafi is the best classical singer, the best ghazal singer, the best light music singer, the best bhajan singer etc. and you are accusing me to be biased.”
It’s not that we want to make Rafi the best in every category, its just that Rafi “was” the best in every category. Take any of those categories, and list the top songs in each category and you will find Rafi songs at the top of the list in every category. There is an analysis that Sudip did a while back on various genres, and Rafi was not only mentioned as being solid in every genre, but he came out tops in all of them too. All we’re doing is mentioning the truth, nothing more, nothing less. You are definitely bias, your posts have shown that, associating something with Kishore when it is not true shows bias.
“a music director is not the only person who makes the decision of choosing the singer. the producer/director and sometimes even the actor carries a lot of weight.”
If this is another excuse at Kishore not getting a lot of chances, then it won’t work. A music director is the captain of the ship, they envision who will sing their creation. ofcourse the producer/director, actor etc. has say, but its the MD who is the captain of the ship. Kishore lacked great ability which is why he wasn’t taken very seriously. Even in his limelight period in the 70’s, his genres of songs were limited. So are you still going to say he didn’t get chance to sing many varieties of songs even then ?. It seems you’re making too many excuses to try and cover up Kishore’s drawbacks but it won’t work.
“think about manna dey. he was as good a singer as rafi in most categories (much better than mukesh in any case) and yet producers used to create so many problems when a music director wanted him to sing for the hero. he mentioned in the interview i posted previously how the producers insulted him when shankar wanted him to sing “sur na saje†for bharat bhushan and also for raj kapoor in chori chori.”
Manna Dey was never as good as Rafi in many categories. He even mentioned himself (in several interviews) that he knew Rafi was the best singer, followed by himself (in his opinion), and then others.
“and yet, considering how manna dey sang “sur na saje†or “laaga chunari mein daag†or “kaun aaya mere man ke dwaare†or qawwalis like “na to karwaan ki talash hai†or bhajans like “tu pyar ka sagar haiâ€, do you think he cannot sing “man tarpat hari darshan†or “o duniya ke rakhwale†?”.
Yes, he could not because those songs were out of his range. If Manna could have sang those songs, then Naushad would have gone to him instead of Rafi. SPB made a comment of “impossible” when talking about “O duniya ke rakhwale” and how any singer would not have been able to render it, only Rafi could have sang that song. Rafi only could have sang ‘Man tadpat hari darshan” the way he did.
“in those days, and rightfully so, most people wanted rafi to be the screen voice of the hero (except for mukesh/raj kapoor and kishore/dev anand). rafi was fortunate that movies in those days contained situations where there was scope for ghazals, bhajans, and classical based songs.”
So now you’re saying Rafi was fortunate to get the songs he sang, and forget about ability because there were others who were in the same level or better. Your arguments show that you are sad, or jealous at what happened. Why don’t you make the same case for Lata. If Rafi was fortunate, then Lata was also fortunate, which is why Asha didn’t get the songs that Lata did, or Suman, or Geeta, or others didn’t get those songs even though they were similar in ability or better (if we take your argument view). This makes no sense, as Lata and Rafi were the two best singers ever which is why they received all the best songs, and there’s no two ways about it. Don’t confuse situations, and other circumstances for ability, its a very weak argument, and very illogical. You just mentioned “righfully so” meaning Rafi should have been the choice to sing those songs because of his ability, but then you contradict yourself by saying he was fortunate to receive those songs, it doesn’t make sense. Also why do you think most people wanted Rafi to be the screen voice for virtually everyone ?. A simple answer, because he was the best singer. Also, adding to this, why do you think he received every type of song to sing ?. Another simple answer, because he was the best at singing every type of song.
The bottom line is “Rafi was Rafi” and “Lata was Lata”, the two greatest singers ever, which is why they received the songs that they sang.
Dhaniram sir
Thank you sir for the compliments… I have just listened to the kohinoor song.. it’s a nice one, thanks for referring to it. I’d rather not discuss Rafisahab V Lataji (on classical mastery) here, I’d mail my observations to you.
Mr.Ponnaps:
Nice of you to come up with the taqdeer ka fasana song. Actually this song is superb demo for a lot of things.. #1. It parades Rafisahab’s smooth switch thru notes. #2. It shows pretty clearly how genius (Rafisahab’s) can rival and even surpass technical mastery (Lataji’s)… {I’m not hinting that Rafisahab is technically inferior}.#3. It disproves one of the many theories that’s being floated around in this site of late, that ‘absolute’ high pitch is nothing much to talk about. As Mr.Sudip rightly pointed out, the higher notes can express and convey things, lower notes can’t and this is a perfect example… Lataji sings in a lower scale (I suppose the same one as Rafisahab’s in the first video) and just see the difference the slightly higher scale can make to the song (the second video)#4. This is another good example of what the learned gentleman who wrote this article wanted to convey (and something Haldar sir mentioned in a previous post)- Rafisahab’s strengh in voice (or his throat), his throat could hold anything, I bet this same song, he could have sung a couple of scales higher and that would have been just as phenomenal as this one and since he doesn’t strain at high notes who could express all the emotion and that’s what makes everyone cry when listening to it (I’m sorry, those who think this is yelling are not considered part of ‘everyone’)
Haldar sir
I’m sorry, tried as hard as I did, I can’t list 20 KK songs in the category you mentioned.
All
Please don’t be intimidated by the jargons that’s being bombarded by certain people… a greater knowledge of music (or the jargons?) doesn’t make someone a better appreciator.. Years of listening (to good music) does…
Guys:
I see overreaction to Manna’s interview here. I had mentioned in post 1058 that “MOST TALENTED” does not mean “THE BEST”. Please do not get trapped into these out-of-context quotes and rebuttals..
Its like saying “ROHIT SHARMA IS THE MOST TALENTED CRICKETER IN INDIA”. Would you protest if I said that and start comparing with Tendulkar?
recently at Krishna Janmashtami celbrations near london a british lady sang ‘sukh ke sab saathi dukh mein na koi’ from gopi..it was just amazing hearing the song and was telling my friend theres no escaping Rafi saabs songs whereever u go..
was quite heartening to see the devotion the lady put into the song..could only think of Rafi saab at that moment..
here is bhakti ras from Rafi saab..feeling of devotion imparted into the song is jus mindblowing…not even a manna da or a specialist bhajan singer like Anup jalota can provide such devotional content into the renditiion..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVYEk7FN0pQ
Bose ji,
I continue my message. To prove my credentials, I post greatest songs of mohd. rafi here. I feel kishore ji, though had great songs, could not have these type of incomparable beautiful songs.
This is from kashmir ki kali. Could you match anyone with this song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txv7RCe8DXM
The following is from the chaudvin ka chand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9Vw2fL1Hw4
Baiju bawra – o duniya ke rakwale
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uobapLcZXJM
See the great range and movements of the great rafi sahab. Kishore ji did not have any such great renderings. Rafi ji on the other hand had more great renderings than kishore ji.
I was also mentioning sri ghantasala from the south. Hear these two great telugu musical hits (both music directed by ghantasala himself) you will know what true music and singing is. How to sing a raag with complete ease and perfection is known from these songs.
A beautiful solo
in.youtube.com/watch?v=zQCfnnda-0M – 89k –
An extraordinary duet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7RX5dqWPrA
Disclosure : KIND ATTENTION : RAFI LOVERS AND THE MODERATOR.
I AM NOT INTERESTED IN ANY COMPARISONS, BUT I AM ONLY INTERESTED IN SPREADING GOOD MUSIC TO ALL TRUE MUSIC LOVERS IN AN IMPARTIAL WAY. HOPE ALL THE TRUE MUSIC LOVERS WILL ENJOY MY ABOVE POSTS TO THEIR HEARTS CONTENT.
Dear anilji
ref: 1054
Please accept my compliments for a wonderful blog.You have cleared up much fog created by a facile use of terms
I need your and others help to fully grasp the nature of a song that I heard for the first time 45 years ago and instantaneously took a fancy to.And then the song was lost in the flood of Rafi’s own songs besides the cacohany that replaced the music of 50s and 60s.The cds that one gets these days don’t contain such gems of yesteryears.And Rafi has an endless number of such forgotten songs.Much is being made these days about classical songs in films but nobody seems to bother about the cold reception that most of them got.The most glaring example is Mughl – e – Azam piece aaj gaavat man meiro jhoom ke by Ustad Amir Khan and Pandit Pulaskar.Who has ever heard that song or hears it today? Rafi’s song that I have in mind and that I heard yesterday on Farishta channel of Radio Worldspace after a gap of four decades is: zaraa man ki kiwadia khol saiyan tore dware khare.To me this neglected and forgotten song appears to be as melodious as any sung by anybody. Shri Surajit insists that Rafi doesn’t measure up to Lataji in classical singing.I strongly disagree with him.Both Lata and Rafi have been two of the greatest gifts of God to India.I listen to both of them in reverence with bowed head.It seems to me sacrilegious to dissect thier work.But now that questions are being raised about Rafi’s ability and his flaws are being highlighted to put on pedestal an ordinary singer,one is constrained to defend one’s icon.
Lata is undoubtedly very great but as I have previosly stated Rafi has an edge over her.I cited Lata’s duets with rafi as well as parallel songs.rafi either excels lata in them or is her equal.Rafi’s flaws have been bandied about but nobody has said that sometimes lata too falters.Her voice thins out and occasionally gives the impression of a scream.One song cited by Shri Surajit Sawariye from Anuradha is a wonderful composition by Pandit Ravi Shankar and could have been better rendered by a singer with a better volume.Where Lata falters ,rafi remains steady.I don’t know in waht way is Zara man ki kiwadiya less than Lata’s cited by shri surajit.so i need you help to be enlightened about it..
Shri surajit’s citation from manna interview has confounded me.I have myself heard maana say that rafi had no equal not even lata.In printed interviews also i have read hi says the same thing.How is it that in the pioneer interview he has radically changed his views?
dear fellow rafians,
I am again requesting you not to get into any kind of argument with this visitor, because by so doing, you are bringing down rafi to kishore’s level. I’d like to begin a new discussion. Some of you are dismissive of mukesh bhai — and I do acknowledge his tendency to go besura from time to time — but I’d like to argue that he sang better classical songs than kishore did. Why don’t some of you compile Kishore’s 20 best “classical” songs (whatever that might mean) and I’ll provide Mukesh’s 20.
In my youth, I bought a few LP records on classical film songs. I can’t remember a single kishore song on any of them. Here’s a list of songs from a 2-pack CD released by saregama:
—–
This set of 2 compact discs features 32 Classic songs from Hindi Films.
Tracks :
Sur Na Saje – Film : Basant Bahar – Manna Dey
Madhuban Mein Radhika Nache – Film : Kohinoor – Mohd. Rafi
Jhanak Jhanak Payal Baje – Film : JJPB – Khan Sahib Amir Khan
Prem Jogan Ban Ke – Mughle-E-Azam- Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali
Prrchho Na Kaisa Maina – Filom : Meri Surat Teri Ankhen – Manna Dey
Bole Re Papihra – Film : Guddi – Vani Jairam
Sanware Saware Kahe Mose – Anuradha – Lata Mangeshkar
To Hai Mere Prem Devta – Film : Kalpana – Mohd. Rafi & Manna Dey
Aayo Kahan Se Ghanshyam – Buddha Mil Gaya – Manna Dey & Archana
Ajun Na Aaye Balamwa – Film : Sanjh Aur Savera – Mohd. Rafi & Suman Kalyanpur
Laga Chunari Mein Daag – Film : Dil Hi To Hai – Manna Dey
O Sajana Barkha Bahar Aayi – Film : Parakh – Lata Mangeshkar
Ketaki Gulab Juhi – Film : Basant Bahar – Manna Dey & Bhimsen Joshi
Beeti Na Bitai Raina – Film : Parichay : Lata Mangeshkar & Bhupinder
Humen Tumse Pyar Kitna – Film : Kudrat – Parveen Sultana
Kaise Samjhaoon – Film : Suraj – Mohd. Rafi & Asha Bhosle
CD 2
Babul Mora Naihar Chhooto Jaye – Film : Aavishkar – Jagjit Singh & Chitra Singh
Jo Tum Todo Piya – Jhanak Jhanak Payal Baje – Lata Mangeshkar
Jhanak Jhanak Tori Baje – Film – Mere Huzoor – Manna Dey
Garjat Barsat Sawan Aayo Re – Film : Barsat Ke Rat – Suman Kalyanpur & Kamal Barot
Re Man Sur Nein Ga – Film : Lal Patthar – Manna Dey & Asha Bhosle
Radhika Tune Bansari Churaiya – Film : Beti Bete – Mohd. Rafi
Tere Naina Talash Karen – Film : Talash – Manna Dey
Hansne Ke Chah Ne – Film Aavishkar – Manna Dey
Ka Karoon Sajani – Film : Dooj Ka Chand – Manna Dey
Rasik Balma – Film : Chori Chori – Lata Mangeshkar
Chham Chham Baje Re Payaliya
Sawan Aaya Ya Na Aaya – Film : Dil Diya Dard Liya – Asha Bhosle & Mohd. Rafi
Lapak Jhapak Too Aare Badarwa – Film : Boot Polish – Manna Dey
Mainon Mein Badra Chhaye – Film : Mera Saaya – Lata Mangeshkar
Jare Badra Bairi Ja – Film : Bahana – Lata Mangeshkar
mr.s.bose, u have lost ur musical balance and now has turned extremely emotional and irrational. we hope you will get better soon – hearing more of kishore kumars songs (most of them hoarse and losing sur many a times ; but some very good ones at that) and spending less of your time herein for a lost cause. we sympathise with your state of mind and your musical jehads . pls remember that extremists are always in a minority and the majority of the music loving population treats maestro mohd rafi as the ultimate in music.
binu nair, mumbai
Bose ji,
Kishore was a great singer with good attractive voice. But majority opinions and research has revealed that the greatest voices in indian playback singing are of mohd. rafi and the southern great i.e ghantasala. This is the opinion of also of majority of indian playback singers. Other singers have their own specialities and attraction, but the versataility and range with divine voice effect belongs only to the above two.
Friends,
Let us stop the argument and do some good music ourselves. Any one who id good composer or director having sound knowledge of key board please get in touch with me. Lets us create music than discussing who is better and what other people have done.
Hope this will sound better. Talking about people and their caliber is easy. How abour your doing something. Rafi & KK have done what ever they were supposed to do. Now it is ur turn guys. Rock on.
Dear Bose the link u gave there some mistake manna dey never never never never never put KK before Mohd Rafi even not in the dreams who wrote that there should be mistake, in manna dey voice where he put Mohd rafi from 1 to 10 not wrote,I can say that KK said that mohd rafi is best singer ever born on this earth but not in KK voice but in case of manna dey on his own voice he said that abount Mohd rafi.
You may be anti muslim(sorry for use this word)or memeber of KK family or you don’t who is Mohd Rafi and who is KK!! or child age of 8 to 14….
Lata ji never speak about KK greatness about singing only about him as human…
How many hit films as music RD had?how many film star or MD who said that they are great because of KK?
Surjit Bose keeps referring to in his posts as to how mds like Sajjad Hussain had strong admiration for kk. The fact is Sajjad Hussain use to call kk as “Shore Kumar”. For Mr. Bose’s information Shore in Urdu means ‘unwanted loud noise”.
Also, what Mr. Bose is saying is a figment of his imagination and holds no value. His comments are absurd, and full of lies. I echo Mr. Haldar’s words, that we should not pay any attention to a person who writes such nonsense.
Rafi was, is, and will always be, the greatest singer of all time.
myk,
i have never claimed that kishore is the best singer. if you read my posts i have always stressed that lata and saigal were the best singers we had. i was indicating that kishore is as good as rafi in terms of ability. it is just incidental that he didn’t get a chance to sing as many varieties of songs as rafi or mukesh.
if you think about it, even mukesh sang more types of songs than kishore. using that arguement, one could say that even mukesh is a better singer than kishore.
all of you seem to want to make rafi the best in every category. according to you, rafi is the best classical singer, the best ghazal singer, the best light music singer, the best bhajan singer etc. and you are accusing me to be biased.
from the above perception, it is clear who is biased.
a music director is not the only person who makes the decision of choosing the singer. the producer/director and sometimes even the actor carries a lot of weight.
think about manna dey. he was as good a singer as rafi in most categories (much better than mukesh in any case) and yet producers used to create so many problems when a music director wanted him to sing for the hero. he mentioned in the interview i posted previously how the producers insulted him when shankar wanted him to sing “sur na saje” for bharat bhushan and also for raj kapoor in chori chori.
and yet, considering how manna dey sang “sur na saje” or “laaga chunari mein daag” or “kaun aaya mere man ke dwaare” or qawwalis like “na to karwaan ki talash hai” or bhajans like “tu pyar ka sagar hai”, do you think he cannot sing “man tarpat hari darshan” or “o duniya ke rakhwale” ? in those days, and rightfully so, most people wanted rafi to be the screen voice of the hero (except for mukesh/raj kapoor and kishore/dev anand). rafi was fortunate that movies in those days contained situations where there was scope for ghazals, bhajans, and classical based songs.
here is one song that kishore rendered well in raga MaruBihag:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQxhxetL2Rk
But then again, there are people out there who ignore logic and post foolish and crazy comments, like the ones we have seen from Mr. Bose. It’s perfectly fine to have a favourite artist, but when you go overboard and post illogical comments, then you are crossing the line.
Rafi was a once in a lifetime phenomenon. What he did, no one could do at that time, no one can do now, no one will be able to do in the future, and no one will be able to do, and no one can do ever. As I said before:
There are far too many aspects of Rafi’s singing, skills, and talent (i.e voice, range, melody, versatility, emotion etc.) that makes him better than any other singer, male and female. These aspects make it impossible for anyone to be compared to him, and if anyone is compared to him then it is a joke. The only fair comparison as I mentioned earlier would be Rafi vs Lata. There is a huge space/gap between Rafi and the rest, as Rafi is in a league and class of his own.
Rafi was, is, and always will be the greatest singer of all time, and the first and last word in singing.
Rafi was far ahead of any singer in every aspect, that its a joke that others like Mr. Bose are comparing him to any singer including an amateur like Kishore. It’s not logical to compare any singer to Rafi when he was miles ahead of them in every aspect (genres, voice, melody, range etc.).
Mr Surajit Bose — regarding your post #1056, the Chandan Mitra interview was a one-off & a hoax. There are about 5-10 different interviews where I have seen Manna Dey proclaim Rafi to be the greatest ever, and even greater than Lata. I’ve even met Manna Dey in person a couple of times during small concerts, and he told us himself that Rafi was so great that he holds positions 1-10 in playback singing. He also said that Kishore is nothing in front of Rafi, but that he is criticized & threatened by Bengalis every time he states the facts about Kishore. He also said that Kishore had so many weaknesses that he would’ve never become a successful singer if RD & SD didn’t have a bias towards him.
Fans like you are biased, blind, narrow minded, and clearly have an inferior taste. Kishore had so many weaknesses as a singer that it’s funny to even start listing, and only biased people like you can think of him as a superior singer. Even his voice is so constipated, nasal, hoarse & cheap that only blind & deaf fans like you can like something so inferior.
Regarding my previous post I should have mentioned that first few links are for ‘Taqdeer ka fasana’ from Sehra and the last link is ‘Mere dushman tu meri dosti ko tarase’ from Mere Humdum Mere Dost….
and talking about Sehra who can one forget this most melodious song from the same movie..Rafi lata duet ‘Tum to pyaar ho’…check out how sweet and mellifluous Rafi saab sounds…soo pleasing to the ear…few would believe its the same one who also sang taqdeer ka fasana in the same film..such is the incredible range of emotions that only he could deliver…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwesUjcV-ok
post 1056 surajit ji: nothing personal. only hard facts from the musical scene. never ever compare cheese and chalk for you will reach nowhere.
you should know by now that mohd rafi has the largest number of fans in west bengal and then in gujarat, both, politically diametrically opposite states. but, as far as music tastes go – both march hand in hand and they worship rafi saaheb out there. you will not digest this fact like many other facts about our music history which millions of people around the globe understand and accept. and in kerala 90 % of the pople love rafi saaheb and yesudas. in many other states, its rafi, talat, mukesh and manna dey whose musicals people prefer to watch and remember. yes kishore kumar has some very good songs but that never will make him a better singer than mohd rafi.
i myself has met kishore kumar , like some of his songs and i respect the man. but not blindly like you.
more, mohd rafi has the largest fan following in countries like maldives, surinam, holland, west indies, south africa, usa, u.k., gulf countries and most other parts of the globe.
this fact was re-told to me by my friend playback singer mohd aziz ( munna azis ) from w.bengal who is now settled in Mumbai.
when mohd rafi saaheb visited west indies, there was a stampede there in the sixties. there are maximum number of rafi musicals at any given of time. all this shows the popularity of the maestro – mohd rafi.
we dont expect you to believe all this and we do not care for your parrot type posts which lacks lustre and punch – just like that of your – h.m.v.
binu nair .. mumbai.
Bose Saheb,
Your focus has now shifted from semi classical singning to cherry picking interviews such as cited by you where Manna Dey rates KK as the best in an edited interview. I have watched atleast three live interviews of Mnna Dey (I am sure you have watched them on You Tube) where he rates Rafi as the supreme as far as male playback singers are concerned in hindi cinema. Going by the fact that Manna dey was very proud of his classical training/education, he is on record to call Mohd Rafi as semi litterate and Lata as illitrate. Not very pleasing words about KK da’s classical or other singning skills on a diffrent forum. How do you react to that.
It was alright to critic semi classical aspect, but trying to bring the comparison is unfounded. As music lovers, We all respect KK da’s singing genius. As a fellow rafian has rightly stated Rafi Saheb was Sir Garfield Sobers (All the bests rolled into one). I admit in patches and on their day Lara or Richards would outshine Sobers and bradman.
That interview by Manna should be taken with a pinch of salt, as many a times he has mentioned that Rafi is the greatest, so his comment there hold no value. I am not surprised that you brought up such an interview, because if one writes nonsense, then one can also bring up other nonsense things/items as well.
“also, if naushad felt that way about kishore, anil biswas felt the same about rafi. what do you say about that ? c ramachandra had the highest regard for kishore’s capabilities and potential as a singer. and c ramachandra was a musician trained in the best of classical music (he and bhimsen joshi had the same guru – sawai gandharva).”
Actually, most MD’s dismissed Kishore. Most of the genius MD’s never thought highly of Kishore’s singing skills which was perfectly fine, because Kishore didn’t have high singing skills to begin with.
“as much as most of you want to try and make something you believe in to be a fact, rafi’s classical singing doesn’t make the cut. he can convince a listener uninitiated into classical music, but if you have an ear tuned to classical music, it is very clear that he missed that grasp of classical music.”
Rafi’s classical singing definitely makes the cut, in a huge way. He never missed any grasp in classical music, as he was the best in classical music. Pandit Gyan Praksah Ghosh, Naushad, KC Dey and many other classical music experts all hailed Rafi as the best classical singer, and it is clearly evident when you hear Rafi’s classical songs. So your comments don’t hold any value and are clearly just your opinion which will not change the fact that Rafi was the best classical singer. I think you want to try and make something you believe in to be a fact, and not anyone here. Whatever anyone is saying here (besides you) is the truth. Btw, you must have heard Rafi’s “concert version” of ‘O duniya ke rakhwale’ and the classical part of “mehel udaas” which was Rafi brought into the song himself, and which was a masterstroke that no singer can ever replicate. Kishore and others would have failed miserably in that aspect, and for this song SPB said “impossible” meaning no one can touch Rafi. ‘O duniya ke rakhwale’ has got to be one of the top ten songs of all time. You lack knowledge as well as classical knowledge which is why you’re making such nonsense comments.
“the trouble with kishore is that kishore makes it look easy. he rarely draws attention to his singing. it’s just smooth as silk and seems so natural that all the hard work and artistry behind the songs is overlooked. rafi and manna dey make it much more obvious that singing well is hard work. it’s easy to admire “man tarpat hari darshan†or “o duniye ke rakhwaale†because every phrase of the song calls attention to itself as a Classical song that is hard to sing. Admiration is the expected reaction — and also the lazy one.”
Actually Kishore songs are so simple, that anyone can sing them. Kishore rarely draws any attention to his singing because he was not an extraordinary singer like Rafi. Rafi was the only one who made singing look so easy. Even in classical songs, he made it look so easy whereas one can see that Kishore and Manna and others are trying hard to sing their songs. LOL please spare us more laughter by not associating the terms smooth and silk with Kishore when he clearly was as far from those two phrases as possible.
“for all the alleged “simplicity†of kishore’s songs, i have not come across a single person who can re-create most of his songs.”
Ofcourse no one can re-create the original, that’s the same case with any singer’s songs. However I have come across many who have come very close to the original Kishore songs. His songs are so easy to sing, that it becomes child’s play after. No one can come close to the original of Rafi songs, they have a very high level of difficulty, but he made this high level of difficulty look so easy.
“most of you dismiss yodelling as though it were noise. that is just an indirect way of saying “i am sorry, i just cannot do itâ€.”
Actually its not an indirect way of saying anything, its a direct way of saying, “its a circus act and not important”. All singers knew it wasn’t important, yodelling doesn’t make one a great singer, which is why they didn’t pay attention to it. On the other hand, Kishore had severe limitations, and could not match up to other singers, so he yodelled to try and get attention, and paid attention to yodelling because he didn’t have other singing skills.
Btw, Rafi yodelled in some songs as well, you can search the site and find out those songs. Such was his huge talent, that he could so so well something Kishore specialized in. Rafi could do anything others did, but others could not do anything Rafi did.
“that only proves that if there is something you cannot replicate, you just push it away using the excuse that “it is not musicâ€. music doesn’t have to stick to “traditions†to be called “good musicâ€.”
The only thing anyone is pushing away here is the truth, and that is you who is pushing away the truth. You and your posts have shown that you hardly have any musical knowledge. A person who says Kishore is the best, and that KLS sang classical songs great, should be taken lightly and not seriously, and should be shown the right path. As I said no matter what anyone says or writes, Rafi will always be the greatest singer ever. It’s a proven fact that no one can change.
Your posts are now seriously a comic full of laughter.
Surajit:
Throughout this thread we have quoted eminent singers, musicians, actors and also expressed our own preferences. I have little clue on how each individual sees this debate. But to me, ‘most talented’, ‘favorite’, ‘greatest’ are all DIFFERENT. You cited Manna’s interview and I agree with him that Kishore was the most talented. But as I said, ‘most talented’ ‘favorite’ ‘greatest’. My favorite actor is Amir Khan, but that does not make him the greatest actor..My favorite female personality is my girlfriend but that does not make her the greatest beauty. So, my request is let is not use these terms interchangeably.. The “greatest” has to be a judged on several measurable factors with some permissible degree of subjectivity.
The last time Manna talked publicly about the “greatest male singer ever†(NOT “one of the greatest singersâ€) was in the obituary for Naushad in the renowned Bengali daily Anandabazar Patrika. A translated version of that obituary is here (pls read the conclusion):
http://www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=813233
If you suspect this is a handiwork of Rafians, here is the original untranslated version:
http://www.anandabazar.com/archive/1060513/13nibon.htm
You also wrote:
“rafi, being a tenor, could sing at an “absolute†higher pitch than other singers. but, that doesn’t make him superior to other singers. otherwise, many classical singers (bhimsen joshi even) would have to quit, if “absolute†high pitch singing is the sole criteria for judging singers.”
-That is not the sole criteria. But we are talking Hindi films here where high pitch often depicts passion and pathos. So when Rafi sings “Kahedo koi na kare yahan pyar” at high pitch, it is not mere singing. It is an expression of pathos and sends a message that drenches hearts.. No wonder Bhimsen Joshi was never a successful playback singer..
Finally to wind up on the “greatest” argument. Let us not delve on “talent” and “potential”.. Kishore had a golden voice but the qualitative value of what he delivered was way short of what he “could have”.. I do not want to be speculative here.. Putting speculations aside, Rafi and Lata have contributed the best of songs and hence are the greatest…
One thing I absolutely agree with you is Kishore of 50s and 60s was better than Kishore of the 70s and 80s..Very few people can appreciate that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UTQwzb5lmw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7UOXUCb38o&feature=related
Ive been hooked to this song all day and yesterday and hence brought this up..im just immersed in the artistry involved in the rendition..
This is what is rivetting stuff!I cant imagine any singer in this world who could ride the peaks and troughs so effortlesly.look at the adjacent highs and lows in this song and the way its pukled off..Check out the amount of emotions being put into the singing..you can actually hear crying in the voice..im sure Rafi saab did all this effortlesly with that typical smile on his face..
No singer I repeat no singer can ever come up with this kind of rendition…
Take Lata below for example.Same song,lyrics,tune and same kind of situation in the movie.But the outcome is so flat…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQi5H4sMlO0&feature=related
i dont even want to talk abt kk in the same breath…sorry Surajit he just doesnt have anything in his repertoire to show that comes anywhere close…and what lousy songs have you listed there…so uninspiring and dull..the mere voice quality is such a turn off for a qawwali..really average stuff if you consider the gems in the HFM treasure…
I guess Its your own bias at work or is it that only listening to the banal stuff your idol has to offer your hearing faculties have failed to be discerning anymore..one would never know..i can only pity you on your poor choice of songs and if you are happy with the ordinary then so be it…
regarding your other posts.No amount of talking rubbish will submerge the facts.You need to walk your talk and show us evidence of supposedly better versions instead of just writing reams of biased BS.But ofcourse you wont be able to do that bcos there just wont exist any such..and im sure you yourself cant come up with any such either..BUT WRITE YOU WILL!
anyways here goes another beautiful incomparable rendition to sign off with…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJzxG5PhGuY
Binu Nair and others,
first and foremost, it is not worth getting so emotional over a musical discussion that doesn’t effect us directly in any way. it’s just a forum where we exchange opinions. i have not been rude to any of the fans here. i don’t see any reason why you all have to resort to personal insults over this matter.
getting back to your posts. many of you have quoted manna dey’s praise of rafi. i can do the same regarding kishore. pls read this interview of manna dey.
http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnist1.asp?main_variable=Columnist&file_name=mitra55.txt&writer=MITRA&validit=yes
for those of you who are too busy to read through it, let me post the relevant parts:
CM: You belong to a generation that produced the greatest male singers of our age. Who was the most talented of the lot?
MD: Undoubtedly Kishore. He was simply fantastic, especially considering he had no formal training in music. He was also a very colourful personality, always laughing and making others laugh. Of course, unlike us, he was very money-minded which was perhaps a good thing because those days, singers were often shortchanged. It is said he would walk out of a recording halfway if the money wasn’t paid. He had a driver called Abdul who would be sent off to the producer’s house to collect the fee in case it had not been paid in advance. Kishore would start singing but his expression would change according to the sign Abdul made from across the glass partition of the recording studio. He would beam if Abdul indicated in the positive, or make an excuse and stop midway if the indication was negative!
But his singing was just marvellous. I remember just staring at him almost to the point of losing my cue while recording Yeh dosti for Sholay. He was simply mesmerising.
CM: Getting back to singers of your time, how would you rate their abilities?
MD: Although I was closest to Talat Mahmood among the singers and felt sorry he destroyed himself by trying to become an actor, I believe Kishore was the best, followed by Rafi and Hemanta. Of them, Kishore and Hemanta had God-gifted voices. Rafi was a mix of a good voice and training. I honestly don’t place myself in the same category because mine is a trained voice. I have no hesitation in saying they were better than me.
Unknow,
i am a fan of KK but i am not a fan of RDB. i have already stated a couple of times in this forum that kishore’s best singing period was in the 1950’s and 1960’s (till about 1970 or 1971). After 1972, his voice started losing it’s flexibility and was not utilized well. further, once AB became the leading hero, there was hardly any focus on music (only action) and that was the main reason why there are very few melodious hit songs in that period.
why do all of you only talk about RDB when you talk about kishore ? RDB used kishore fully only in the late-60’s (padosan) and early 1970’s (starting with kati patang). kishore made his debut in 1948 with ziddi and sang close to 300 songs before RDB came into the picture. kishore sang his best songs for many movies in the 1950’s. some movies were hits and some were not, but the songs were hits.
here are a few where kishore’s voice was melodious and his singing was as smooth as silk (and the MD was not SDB). his transition across registers was effortless and there is no strain in his voice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxuLswNyFmA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XQRvmAwUL0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2lwaK2MKOw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSP03xwwUgI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5ElDU6zndg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhqgK0vUjB0
also, if naushad felt that way about kishore, anil biswas felt the same about rafi. what do you say about that ? c ramachandra had the highest regard for kishore’s capabilities and potential as a singer. and c ramachandra was a musician trained in the best of classical music (he and bhimsen joshi had the same guru – sawai gandharva).
as much as most of you want to try and make something you believe in to be a fact, rafi’s classical singing doesn’t make the cut. he can convince a listener uninitiated into classical music, but if you have an ear tuned to classical music, it is very clear that he missed that grasp of classical music.
the trouble with kishore is that kishore makes it look easy. he rarely draws attention to his singing. it’s just smooth as silk and seems so natural that all the hard work and artistry behind the songs is overlooked. rafi and manna dey make it much more obvious that singing well is hard work. it’s easy to admire “man tarpat hari darshan” or “o duniye ke rakhwaale” because every phrase of the song calls attention to itself as a Classical song that is hard to sing. Admiration is the expected reaction — and also the lazy one.
for all the alleged “simplicity” of kishore’s songs, i have not come across a single person who can re-create most of his songs.
most of you dismiss yodelling as though it were noise. that is just an indirect way of saying “i am sorry, i just cannot do it”. that only proves that if there is something you cannot replicate, you just push it away using the excuse that “it is not music”. music doesn’t have to stick to “traditions” to be called “good music”.
One doesn’t have to like any artist to acknowledge them as the greatest. For example, one can be a fan of Bappi Lahiri, but still acknowledge S-J or SDB or Naushad etc. as the greatest MD’s and who are better than BL.
Mr. Bose, same is the case with you, your bias for Kishore will not make you see others who were better than him. You may like/not like Rafi, and Kishore may be your favourite, but you should know that no singer was as good or in the same league and class as Rafi. If you cannot see this, it doesn’t really matter, and no one cares, but may you be shown the right path in the future.
Anyways, one doesn’t have to acknowledge the truth, for it to be the truth. If one does not want to accept reality, it still won’t change the truth that Rafi is the greatest of all time. No matter what Mr. Bose, anyone on RMIM, any fools, or anyone out there in the world says, the truth, reality and fact is that Mohammad Rafi Saab is the greatest singer of all time, and the first and last word in singing. It’s also great to know that most of the knowledgeable people out there in music, such as singers, musicians, MD’s, lyricists etc. (including fans) think so as well.
Dear Rafi fans:
Rafi sahab wasn’t a tenor…. if someone knows what’s a tenor. And KK wasn’t baritone… Even the legendry Jim Reeves (with a much deeper voice that could come down below F in the 1st octave) was considered only a ‘soft-baritone’. Actually these terms don’t apply 2 Indian music (classical or otherwise). Just for the information of members who may not be too familiar with these terms.
And there’s another myth that’s being spread… of KK being able 2 sing at lower notes… actually he couldn’t/didn’t. KK also had a high-octave voice (similar to Rafisahab’s when speaking of pitches) and he was most comfortable at middle-high notes, just that his reach was well below Rafisahab’s at the higher notes (almost an entire octave less). Whenever KK tried to sing at lower notes it was too hard on ones’ ears… Rafisahab on the other hand did a fine job at lower notes at his peak prime (which IMO is the mid-50s to late 60s), Dhaniram sir has given many examples. There also a superb article from Gurumurthy sir in this site about such songs and I’d add on ‘mere mehboob tujhe….’, ‘meri mohabbat…’, ‘meri awaaz suno…’ to the listing. However the best demo would be the ‘Duniya ke rakhwale…..’ in the live version.. he starts the first ‘bhagwan…’ from G# in the first octave ( a note KK couldn’t strike at listener-pleasing voice). It’s true Rafisahab wasn’t too comfortable at lower notes towards the later stages of his life in this world. But still he came up with ‘boondhe hue sitarein…’, and off course the live recording of Naushad saab’s songs. And let me tell you something about Rafisahabs voice which I suppose has already been highlighted by knowledgable people here…. his voice texture changed with the pitch of the song, at lower notes the voice was pretty husky transcending to a sweet, full throated, light one at the higher notes (yet retaining the core masculinity). It doesn’t really happen with any other singers (IMO) except Yesudas sir.
I agree that KK was blessed and he was unique in many ways… to have a voice that’s heavy, often (IMO) rough, yet not too hard on ears… and the ability to scale (relatively) high notes with such kind of voice, these are all true gifts as well as his ability to improvise and add life to songs with his own things. Actually he’s very good and the real problem (for him) starts only if and when his fans start comparing him to the Colossus (or the Mt.Everest, as Haldar sir would have it).
Finally Rafisahab wasn’t Sunny Gavaskar, he was Sir Garfield Sobers, who did everything as well as anyone.
Correction:
The last sentence in the first paragraph of my previous post should read as:
“There is a huge space/gap between Rafi and the rest, as Rafi is in a league and class of his own”.
There are far too many aspects of Rafi’s singing, skills, and talent (i.e voice, range, melody, versatility, emotion etc.) that makes him better than any other singer, male and female. These aspects make it impossible for anyone to be compared to him, and if anyone is compared to him then it is a joke. The only fair comparison as I mentioned earlier would be Rafi vs Lata. There is a huge space between Rafi and the rest, as Rafi is in a league and class of his own.
Rafi was, is, and always will be the greatest singer of all time, and the first and last word in singing.
Btw, Mr. Bose, you’re the one that brought all this on yourself with all these nonsense and fantasy claims of yours, so the fact that you mention that you have no desire to argue with anyone or prove your “classical” credentials hold no water. If you are going to make such silly statements, then atleast try and back them up. Ofcourse you will never be able to back them up since your statement are silly, but don’t blame others for giving you a dose of reality. Your stupid comments would make any sane person react. Don’t bow out and chicken out from the game and say you don’t want to prove yourself, just admit you can’t prove yourself and end it there. Your statements will never be taken seriously by any knowledgeable music fan, so I suggest you stop posting more trash.
Ref. Post 1049,
Mr. Bose,
Some more bias examples from you. The point is that no matter what you say, you will never prove that Kishore was equal to Rafi. Rafi will always remain the greatest singer of all time, and this is the view of the majority of musicains, singers, lyricists etc. including Kishore himself. What you are saying is just frankly your opinion and not the truth on musical terms.
For a person who says KLS sang classical songs better than Rafi, you should take their comments with a pinch of salt. Pandit Gyan Prakash Gosh and KC Dey considered Rafi the best exponent of classical music, which he truly was, as shown by his songs. I’ll definitely take their views over yours, a junior in musical knowledge, and regardless of their words or what anyone says, its simply clear that Rafi was arguably the best male singer for classical songs. “Madhuban mein radhika” is the best exponent of Raag Hameer to this day. Rafi was the best at singing any type of songs, from raag-based gems to western songs to any type, you name it and he was the best at it.
Kishore songs also have the “noise” and “irritating” factor because his voice in general was not sweet, nor melodious, and was loud and not soothing. The only “true-tone” voice was Rafi’s voice who’s voice was very golden, very sweet, very smooth, very flexible, full of different shades, had perfect tonal quality, very melodious and like mount everest. Kishore’s voice was a mixed bag, on a good day his voice was just good, nothing outstanding, but in general it had a shrill, and was not flexible at all. His voice many a times seemed as if a tire was running over it (no disrespects meant to Kishore).
It’s mind-boggling how one can possibly rank Kishore alongside Rafi and the greatest singers of HFM ?. Saying Kishore’s voice was fluid and mellifluous and that sometimes his mere speech sometimes took on a musical temper is equivalent to saying Kumar Sanu had the best voice in the 90’s. It may be your opinion, but in reality its definitely not the truth. Kishore was no where close to being musically gifted. He was a good composer, but as far as singing was concerned he had many many flaws and drawbacks. A knowledgeable music fan and knowledgeable Kishore fan would accept this, and totally disagree with what you’re writing, but a bias Kishore fan such as yourself will not due to the fact that you are bias as well as other reasons. Singers like Yesudas, SPB, Ghantasala, TMS, Mukesh etc. were far better than Kishore and the best of them all was Rafi.
I have heard all those Kishore songs you mentioned from those films, and some are good, but nothing exceptional, and they even are no where close to any of Rafi’s average songs. Rafi’s average songs sound better than those Kishore’s songs because of the high level of brilliance from Rafi, so if that’s the case, forget about Rafi’s best songs, as they are totally out of Kishore’s league. As a Kishore fan, I was expecting you to come up with better songs, but you once again proved me wrong. I don’t blame you, since Kishore definitely doesn’t have the repertoire to match Rafi. Take Rafi songs in any genre (classical, sad, romantic, happy, bhajans, western, pop, jazz etc.), and they will top the list, you can’t say the same about Kishore’s songs or anyone else’s songs in any genre. What a joke to compare an amateur like Kishore to a giant like Rafi.
Kishore’s voice, range etc. were no where close to Rafi’s, its hilarious to even compare the two on that merit, as well as to associate Kishore’s name in the same breath and sentence as Rafi. Why don’t you take a chapter from SDB’s and other’s books and stop your nonsense, and engrave his words into your mind that KK and any other singer will never ever match up to Rafi. If any fair comparison is to be made, it should be Rafi vs Lata.
Ofcourse one can say with absolute certainty and clarity that Rafi was far better and superior to Kishore as well as any other singer because that is the reality and the truth. Your posts have shown that you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, and that you have a clear bias. Kishore was nothing like Richards, if he was, then he would have been the greatest singer of all time. Kishore at best can be considered like a junior cricketer, someone not meant for the big leagues. Why was Kishore no even considered a fourth option for singing in the 50’s and 60’s ?. Why did it take him so long to get noticed if he was so great ?. There lies your answer, so please spare us the nonsense and refrain from making such silly comparisons. Your views have already been torn a part by many here, but take them to musicians and pandits and they will laugh at you and rip them apart. So save youself the embarrasment and stop from posting such trash. Rafi was Richards, Bradman and everyone rolled into one. He was ‘Saatwan Sur’, a phenomenon.
I totally disagree with your view that RDB was successful due to Kishore. Pancham was successfull because he was a mega-talent, definitely not due to Kishore, and he gave Kishore straight and peppy tunes that were popular and this is the reason why Kishore was successful. RR was also very talented, not as much as RD, but talented in his own way. Even Bappi was talented, Kishore didn’t make him successful, so Kishore didn’t make any MD successful with his singing. On the other hand, Rafi made a whole lot of MD’s successful and great (along with the MD’s own talent), but you can’t say that about Kishore and any other male singer except Rafi. Also, had Rafi sang those songs that Kishore sang composed by RD, RR, Bappi etc., they would have been a countless number of times better than what they are.
You look like one of those insecure Kishore fans fighting to keep yourself above water in a wide sea. Your case is drowning by the minute, as the more you try and defend Kishore, the more you drown.