True Voice – Mohd Rafi
The following article was brought to my notice when Sharad posted it on MAS. The article has been trimmed down a bit keeping afloat Rafi details. However, anyone interested can go visit the source at http://tfmpage.com/forum/4980.6302.04.57.19.html
I am Swaminatha Iyer and I am 78 years old. I hail from Tiruchi and I am a part of music associations in Tiruchi, M’as as well as in West Bengal and Maharashtra.
I think it is wrong to condemn music or artists on either side of Vindhyas. Our Indian music is one of the few which has not been cleaned off by the western music though there has always been a influence. It speaks a lot of the richness of our music. Sometime back director of MTV had said that MTV westernized the music wherever it went but in India , MTV had to be Indianized for it to be accepted. A lot of this credit goes to the Indian film music.
I have been fortunate to have close personal association with Rafi, Sirkali, TMS, Dr. BMK, Kishore, SPB & KJY, PS, Mannadey and the one and only Lata Mangeshkar.
Comparisons are bound to come, but almost every artist or I have met considers Lata to be beyond comparison. Her talents are beyond anyone’s reach. Even Sirkazi used to talk of her singing like a die-hard fan as do countless others.
Now coming to the Rafi-SPB discussion. It might be difficult to convince an South Indian to believe Rafi is the better and at the same time Rafi crowd will never believe any other male singer comes anywhere nearer. There is one more mobile crowd, which is well conversant with Hindi and some south Indian language. Majority of them tilt to either Rafi or Kishore.
During one of my stays in M’as I had stayed with SPB. While talking of true voices he said, I don’t feel like half a singer when listening to Rafi. True voice is not a tech term but many in circle use it. Perfect example would be lata, but to understand consider our own PS who within her range is superb. People who do not have such true voices can never do justice to original. They generally underplay many parts of the song or fake it with bass/superficial singing. True voices make people like Sirkazi, Nusrat Fateh Ali khan, Lata… Inimitable. However since Sirkazi and Nusrat did not have the filmy voices their “real” following is limited to their local arena.
In addition to the true voice if the singer has a very good voice then in “most” cases he/she can better songs of others. It is this combination which makes Rafi stand out among the other male singers. There are many here who seem to have mistaken notions on a good bass and also on high pitch.
Bryan Adams does not require a monster bass in “Summer of 69” to sound real manly. It is the punch which gives that feel and that is decided only by the comfort level in most ranges (that is by what your throat can support). This you CAN never disguise with bass. Since people have talked about lack of manly voice viz. a viz. Rafi it was necessary to bring this point out. I have had the fortune of listening to most singers in studio and some times without a mike, practicing with MD’s.When Lata or Rafi do, the level is so high that people hesitate to even hum. It felt silly to sing in their presence (and it feels silly when someone says his voice isn’t manly).
In RD’s tribute when SPB sang “Aaja Aaja mein hoon” or “Chaand mera dil” it sounded only sweet and lacked punch if you compare with Rafi’s original.
Yesu once told me God has been partial to Rafi. He said “god gift term anavasyamaa romba common aa ippo use aardu”.. but idu Rafi kee thaan 100% porundu”. This person could sing “as intricately as a lady without sounding thin”, “cover any mood”, “versatility odey perfect example Rafi”. Yesu said most important is the comfort level over ranges which makes you feel God has been partial to Rafi. (But Of course in Rafi’s early career (1950’s) the voice was relatively feeble).
To people exposed to Rafi’s talent, these or any amount of praise can only seem less. I just wish he was alive and you people could get a live chance to hear him. Probably you can get hold of the DD album for the Geet Gaata Chal series where the first four episodes were dedicated to Rafi. Rafi is on camera singing “O Duniya Ke Rakwaaley” and many other songs. If you see and hear the last part you will realize why SPB said “impossible”. I think particularly those people who have talked about scales w.r.t Rafi should see this album. Its a known fact in industry that Rafi ruled high pitch and there is no male singer better in switching notes so easily. There are artists who can go beyond but then they sound strained or they don’t have pleasant voices when they venture into those territories.
Many singers of today are his compulsive followers. But they end up inheriting only part of his quality. Md. Aziz ended up with a sad voice. Mahendra Kapoor with a thick nasal voice. Anwar with a nasal voice. Sonu Nigam with a feminine voice. Rafi neither had a soft voice nor a heavy (bass) voice he had a good voice. Importantly did not strain at high notes, and voice if at all only became better at higher notes. If you see him singing it will remind you of Janaki. However diff the song is or the note is he will be smiling and singing. It is unthinkable that he cannot sing something.
There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo” song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect. There are lot of other songs of SPB where this great singer has played with songs in total control. You will find most south Indian singers who have had a good exposure say that it is beneficial to learn Hindustani as it gives better breath control and improves expression.
Rafi was not only able to glide over a song, the important thing was that he could express each word/sound when singing. It is one thing to hold your breath, start and reach a crescendo (high note), as like in “Shankara”, “Anbey (Yennai kaan villaye)” it is different ballgame if you have to do it from low notes or suddenly switch notes. With practice the former can be done, latter requires a special gift. Rafi had a natural ability to do the latter. In “Tum joh mil gaye ho” there is such a transition in the “karwaan mil gaya” part. I have never seen anyone do justice to most of his songs in my life time. In “parda hai parda” quawaali the similar part is “kar doon to, Akbar mera naam”. In fact most of his songs will have these specialty as it was his natural ability to sing freely in a wide range at the same time giving that extra expression.
Whereas SPB takes us to heavens with “Idu oru pon maali”,”Ilaya nila” “bisiladarenu”(kannada), when he sings Rafi’s song it lacks the punch or expression, though it has the bass. But at least most agree that SPB does some justice to original, whereas most others murder the original.
One trivial point I would like to add is that singing in Hindi is harder. There are more “JHA”,”CHA”,”HA”,”THA”, “KHA”,”JA”,”FA”. These take away the breath faster. The more expressive you are the more air you are using up. Just singing from Nabhi will not help, your throat also needs to do a lot, for singing in Hindi, Bengali etc. SPB makes you fall in love with his south Indian songs but same cannot be said about his Hindi songs. If you just glide through words having these sounds, you will never be expressive. Doing this as well as reaching high notes is not easy. Rafi had this gift and that’s why it is difficult to imagine anyone else in his shoes. Song “Chalkaaye jaam” has so much expression that it is unthinkable how anyone can sing it. When Rafi switches to a high note with “Mitwaa” in the song “Chaahunga mein tughey” you cannot replicate it with bass. Most others will sound as if they are shouting in such cases. That man’s throat had the ability to freely sing at such levels.
Versatility is not just the ability to sing in various styles, more important is how good you are singing in those styles. You have lot of Ghazal singers today but when Rafi sings a Ghazal you will sit up and take notice. You don’t have to be part of the Ghazal listeners crowd. This is one important aspect. Whatever style you sing you should be able to pull the common man to listen and not just a particular crowd. Pick “parda hai parda” or any qawalli and it will stand tall among other qawalli’s.
Variety is amazing :
songs of Guru Dutt’s Khagaz key phool or songs like abhi naa jao chod key, Aaja teri yaad aayi, Aaj kal mein dhal gaya, Aaj kal terey merey pyaar, Aasmaan sey aaya farishta, Dil ney pyaar kiya hai, Deewana mujh saa nahi, Din dhal jaaye, Duniya paagal hai, Jaane walon jara, Dil joh na kaha saka, Dil key jharokon mein, Dil kaa bhavar, Chalkey teri aakkhon sey, Kar chaley hum fida, khilona jaan kar tum, Woh jab yaad aay, Woh hain jara khafa, Vaadian mera daaman, Pathar key sanam, Chaand mera dil, Main zindagi kaa saath, Mainey poocha chaand sey, sun sun jaalima, Koi jab raah na paay, hum to chaley pardes, badan pey sitaarey, laal chadi maidaan, Tum jo mil gaye, O meri shaahey, Sau baar janam lengey, Tum mujhey yoon bhula, Tumney mujhey dekha, Terey merey sapney, Tumny pukaara hum chaley aay
Name a situation/mood and Rafi’s song will be there on the top.
Swami
surajit ji: the proof of the sweetest pudding is in it’s eating and enjoying. music lovers are enjoying mohd rafi songs – close to seventy years and enjoying. mohd rafi is a towering personality among all the singers and by now he has become a cult figure. your group of kishore lovers may not digest the facts and hence your attempt at – inventing theories about kishores range and voice. Please read again, again and again before you venture out to bring kishore kumar, your h.m.v. on the sama pedestal as mohd rafi. i am talking of post no. 1346. sound recordists of hfm has “universally” accepted that rafi’s voice hits the mike at “uniform range” compared to any other singers. and in the matter of range and voice modulation too, no singer can ever dream of matching mohd rafi saaheb. binu nair, rafi foundation, mumbai. cell: 0 9833 250 701
swamy ji- 1338
A wonderful and dignified conclusion by you. I too agree with all your views.
All fans
what eligibility does anybody has to pass comments against great playback singers ? Does anybody know how much struggle they might have undertaken to deliver the entertainment which people are enjoying through their songs. Sitting and passing comments is a very easy job.
REF MAIL 1346,IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN `THEIR EXPECTATIONS` AND NOT HIS,
THE MESSAGE SHOULD ALWAYS BE LOUD & CLEAR.
BY THE WAY MR.BOSE YOU STILL HAVE NOT REPLIED TO MY QUERY ,YOU HAVE DONE SO MUCH RESEARCH ON KK ,BUT STILL ARE NOT ABLE TO REPLY
1 ) WHERE WAS KK FROM 1950-1972
2 ) IF HE WAS SUCH A COMPLETE SINGER WHY NONE OF THE GREATEST MDS FELT LIKE GIVING HIM SOME SONGS ( ALTHOUGH HE HAD RECORDED SONGS WITH THE MDS WHERE HE WAS THE HERO IN THE FILMS )
surojjit bose : kishore kumar ka badnaami karna aur unko pedh par chadana chodh do. jithna hai uthna hi bolo.
i wish to give you an example. at a musical concert at shanmukhananda hall a professor/music lover told me that “Kishore Kumar ruled for about three years – when rajesh khanna was peaking in form”. he never can take place of any singer. binu nair, mumbai
this is for you surajit bose : sound recordists of h.f.m. would always say that when mohd rafi sang, the sound recordists had to do very minimal work as his voice travelled and hit the mike at very uniform scale. rafi’s voice is god given says kaushik bhai, it had the correct range, scales and modulation which no singer had. with rafi we had very little to do unlike other singers including lata bai, asha bai. minoo karthik seconds this opinion .for your info, kishore used to leave the studios as and when songs were not to his liking or whenever he could not render a song up to his expectations. your theories of kishores voice are all about your unfulfilled dreams or desires. keep it up. it’s your views. we seldom agreeeeee.
binu nair, mumbai, binus2000@hotmail.com
I hope u KK fans remember that today we lost great singer KK in 1987.please don’t compare him with any singer for this week jest remember his great songs
MohdRafi fan
Thanks Dhaniram sir for all the kind words, encouragement and advise. I value it much (coming from a ‘guru seshtra’).
I suppose I blew my top unnecessarily, I assure you it will never happen again (especially in this site dedicated to a ‘farishta’).
Dear Swamiji:
If you think I was targetting you among the ‘neutral’ group I was referring to, let me clarify it was not the case. Infact I respect your views a lot and agree with much of them. And you can count me in among the Ghantasalaji fans. You know what, once I was introduced to Ghantasalaji (courtesy this site) I did a lot of listening to him, reading about him and even made many of my (Keralite) friends listen to him. Let me tell you, this musician deserves all the respect that he commands in South India and elsewhere.
I sincerely apologise to you if I’m, in anyway, a cause of your decision.
Manishji :
I stand by my opinion on KK’s ‘mere naina….’. I (personally) find the rendition to be laboured and dull. I’m not too sure if KK was being true to the script, the hero looks well-groomed (despite the long hair), he’s playing rhythm guitar and he looks pensive (but not too sad or disturbed). And I (personally) don’t suppose KK or Hindi movies cared for such things so minutely those days (Remember the rustic old man yodelling in ‘tum bin…’)
Here’s another famous one in which one can find (personally speaking) the same dull, dry voice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnIGuY5JjHA
One can say KK did justice to the picturisation, however I don’t suppose he would have sung it any differently at the lower notes (eg. at ‘lekin koi mrea apna….’), given another situation.
Again not his fault, the sustained low-pitch singing wasn’t his cup of tea (personally speaking)
Now please watch KK in his elements
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNHbax_kcq4
He is superb in this song because he’s within his comfort zone (when speaking of notes).
Sudeepji (Hope you don’t mind my comments, unsolicited) and everyone:
I was emphasising Rafisahab’s prowess in the lower notes only to prove a point. I understand that his is not the best (in HFM) range in the lower notes and that Saigal saab and Mukeshji can strike monster low-notes with ease. My point is:
#1. It’s a wrong conclusion that Rafisahab was good only at mid-high pitches
#2. KK’s forte was not the lower notes, rather (like Rafisahab) he was at his best in mid-high pitches, just that his upper peak was a good 5-6 notes below Rafisahab’s. ‘Rafisahab was tenor, KK was baritone’ is a pretty hollow statement (contradicted, typically, by the statement ‘Rafisahab’s natural ‘sa’ was d# and KK’s c#- *just 2 notes’ gap*)
#3. KK, though he can technically strike a lower note than Rafisahab, sounds too dry and harsh to ears at those levels.
#4. Rafisahab can hold his own (when compared to KK) when it comes to sustained low-pitch singing (eg. ‘meri awaaz suno…’). His voice, retains that natural easy-on-ears property (though it gets huskier and heavier) at lower notes.
And if you all want to listen to a ‘real’ low pitch song, here is one (in a language not many of you will follow)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oY9oIHNmPY
Someone was trying to prove that KK is Sampras to Rafisahab’s Federer,He’s not, the singer above is (my) Sampras. However I don’t rate him above my singing Federer, though Sampras (to me) is better than anyone (including Federer) who’s ever picked up a tennis racket (and I’m fighting with all the kiddies in my Pete orkut community on this).
*P.S: This is a very ‘subjective’ view by an ‘ordinary’ music lover for other ‘ordinary’ music (and Rafisahab) lovers. The ‘neutral’ ‘wizards’ would be doing a great service to me by staying away from it.
surjit bose: we are tired of your analysis, pleading to treat kishore kumar on the same levels of singing legend mohd rafi. yes. kishore sang some very great songs and also some very low quality songs in his predictable hoarse and melody – less voice which you are unable to detect due to ur obsession with KK. Please remembter that k.l. Saighal saaheb sang less than 100 songs and with these 100 songs, saighal has become a towering legend. do remember that only about 60 of his songs are available now. Similar way mohd rafi was the toast of the music industry for close to forty years. no one can ever come near mohd rafi saahebs talents and records . your H.M.V. did sing some very good songs and i love most of them. but never think ever that kisore kumar could come any way near mohd rafi – who had the sweetest voice and scales for “any” type of songs. and in voice modulation – no singer ever could take the place of rafi. so please listen to some of the great songs of mohd rafi from 1946 with unbiased ears. u will naturally cease then to write all your irrevelent theories herein.
Dear Swamy,
It was a great priviledge to interact with you. You have experienced so many things in your life that I and many others will never have the opportunity to experience (meeting with Rafi, SPB, Yesudas etc). Thanks for sharing some knowledge. It’s so sad that when a person becomes so wise and knowledgeable and has experienced so much – he is elderly and soon to move onto to the next step after this mortal life. You are no doubt a die hard, Rafi fan. I strongly agree with you that both Rafi and Ghantasala were great and great in different ways. As for picking one or the other – it depends on the listener’s background, subjective preferences, and what kind of songs he likes.
Please seriously consider doing us one favor and writing a column or two on Rafi’s death anniversaries. Just once a year (or twice, one more for Ghantasala!). I’d much rather read your candid, inside information not available anywhere else than some commercial column in the newspaper. I thoroughly enjoyed your posts and your writings. Music is just so subjective and deep into people’s hearts that there will always be dissenters – that’s nothing to be discouraged.
I hope you live long and well and in good health.
post 1331
Dear Surojit Boseda
if you claim you know everything and ur H.M.V is the best, then why debate as we have totally opposite views.. Best wishes for you to discuss in sister kk site and not here,
You are distracting and disturbing us a lot when we want to gain more knowledge from veterans like haldarda,MYK sir,XXX sab, Anil Cherian sir,Manish sir n others..
I am humbly requesting you to leave this site as ur views are negative,biased and jaundiced to say the least. This is Rafi sahab’s site and we do not want intruders who repeat parrot like…
If you do not agree with our views pl read and ponder or else walk off
Mr. Binu Nair, Mr MYK, Mr. Anil, Mr. Pardus and all other rafi lovers and other music lovers,
I am posting here my last message in this forum and perhaps, I expect it to be received in true spirit by all genuine music lovers.
Before closing, I want to sincerely express my profound thanks and gratefulness to the esteemed moderator of this great site of the great bollywood playback legend viz., shri mohd. rafi sahab, for having posted my messages in sharing musical thoughts about the great rafi ji, with many music lovers and rafi ji fans.
I have been very happy to have been associated in this forum with many rafi ji lovers (and also of other great playback singers) and in sharing musical knowledge all these days. I thank all the lovers of rafi ji, for sharing their thoughts alongside with me all these days with patience and perseverance.
I also wish to congratulate Shri Binu nair ji, the leader of the Rafi foundation, and wish that rafi foundation grows to greater heights in tune with the great rafi sahab’s level and contribution in hindi film world.
Whatever may be views of people, rafi ji is regarded as (by majority) the greatest in hindi film world, (to be clear, i feel even greater than lata mangeshkar, the nightingale), and i feel, such voice, for coming decades can rarely be found (may not be found) and it is great fortune for all music lovers to hear songs of this great legend even today i.e. after his leaving in 1980.
As Shri MYK observes, indeed I am fascinated (and continue to be fascinated) by the voices of Mohd. Rafi as well as Shri Ghantasala Venkateshwara Rao, (Famed by name Ghantasala) in Indian Playback singing, and similar to some esteemed people here, with good classical knowledge base, I regard these two playback singers as the greatest ever playback singers in Indian film world. To me, like other people with classical knowledge here, whatever applies to rafi ji equally applies to ghantasala ji also (in his own field and area of contribution and in classical film songs to be greatest). Both possessed great fascinating and divine voices surpassing other playback singers so far known in the Indian film world (one in Hindi and another in telugu). I personally feel, true music lovers should enjoy music of these great legends (continuing in full flow till today – after decades of their demise) without paving way for undesirable and undignified comparison.
Shri MYK – your point – Aradhana in telugu was in 1976 (after ghantasala ji passed away in Feb. 1974) – i was referring to the dispute between NTR and ghantasala in 1969, where rafi ji had sung for Bhale tammudu film in telugu , (subsequently, dispute between ntr and ghantasala settled, – ntr had no other option for success) so sir, no issues on this front.
I wish to sincerely convey that, without giving rise to any comparison thoughts, it can be truly said, that as rafi is to hindi, ghantasala is to telugu ( in all ways). I reproduce hereunder comments by qualified greats on ghantasala ji (reproduced from ghantasala.info.com – for information, music lovers may refer to tributes to ghantasala in the site). (These views without doubt, equally apply to rafi ji too) Mr. MYK will not have dispute about comments by these greats (as he wished comments by people who have greater knowledge on music)
SPB – A song (by any singer), has to be sung either similar to ghantasala or has to be lesser than him, because rendering a number by ghantasala is ultimate and and to be more precise, the song has be sung only in the way in which ghantasala sings. Na bhuto na bhavishyati (past, present or future – we cannot find such a singer) – This is only a part/extract of a telugu commentary by spb who in 1993, had unveiled a statue of shri ghantasala at public gardens at hyderabad,wherein, lata mangeshkar was the chief guest.
P Suseela – Ghantasala master’s singing ability and contribution to the playback singing is a ocean, – all other songs by others have to flow like a river into that ocean. The lone singer, who can sing in any style and type and repertoires, be it classical, romantic, hindusthani, western etc.
K J yesudas – The great musician, Shri Ghantasala Venkateshwara Rao’s reverberating and fascinating voice is the main cause for popularity of south indian music. Moreso, his devotional numbers are incomparable (for full text, site may be seen – this is only an extract)
M Balamurali Krishna ( speech is in telugu in MP3 recorder) – Shri ghantasala had the capability to sing a song in complete perfection, depending upon the situation of any type, perhaps rarely found and his contribution to the playback singing in the film world cannot be similarly found.
Illayaraja – Ghantasala is the only singer who can give a guarantee that all songs in a film will be hit.
Other comments by s janaki, lata mangeshkar and others can be read/heard from his site.
The above comments have been posted here, for the information of true music lovers (who do not have knowledge/having limited knowledge about this great legend from the south) and should not be taken as a statement of comparison or otherwise.
Finally, similar to my predecessors, i also with to state that, I did write much about ghantasala, only to share with people about existence of a great music playback legend in the south (similar to rafi ji in bollywood) in the 50’s and 60’s (which was hard to believe by many) Lastly, music is to be heard by all with true interest, as it is one of the gifts given by God to mankind. (And i consider both rafi ji and ghantasala ji as instruments of god sent to earth to entertain people with their great voices and talents)
I have seen many people who did not like rafi ji’s voice or also ghantasala ji’s voice, but majority of the people have been inspired by these great voices. (of course, everybody’s personal choice is equally respected)
Friends, thank you all for the kind co-operation all these days and may god bless all people and may all the readers here and coming generations , continue to cherish hearing the great rafi sahab songs.
Thanks & Good bye.
anilji and pardus
pardus,you patronisingly pontificate to anilji that he should neutrally enjoy the songs of all singers.first,let me remind you that controversy regarding the relative merits of singers was not kicked up by anilji or any rafian.anilji only responded to the attack on rafi.we rafians know for certain that rafi is by far the greatest singer and therefore never compare him to anybody.we just want to listen to him without bothering about what others sing.it are,however,fans of other singers (here,those of kishore and ghantsala)who have a constant and irrepressible itch to enhance the prestige of their icons by comparing them to rafi.
you make a personal attack on anilji by questioning his qualifications to judge the quality of misic and singers.i don’t know what your own qualifications are but here is someone better known than you who holds rafi to be the supreme singer.you must have heard usha mangeshkar’s name.she is lata’s sister and a singer iof considerable merit herself.at a press conference at pathankot in panjab yesterday she said that she adores lata but her favourite singer is mohammad rafi.now what will you say about usha’s qualifications? and she is lata’s sister.what better proof are you looking for? in many of my posts i have said that rafi is a better singer than lata and i have given proof of it by citing parallel (tandem ) songs and duets where rafi is always better than lata.now you will question my qualifications for saying so.gentleman,we are not dogmatically saying anything on our own.we are only corroborating what those who have knowledge of music at the highest level have been saying in general.if a stray musician here and there praises some other singer,it is passe.look,shakespeare by general consensus is regarded as the greatest dramatist of all times.and yet great tolstoy and not so great bernard shaw held a contrary opinion.so you can plough your own furrow and hold whomsoever you consider to be the best or greatest,we are not concerned but please don’t cast aspersions on others’ abilities,sensibilities and qualifications.
first you say that for you all are equal and then you chip in for ghantsala.i don’t understand on what objective grounds is ghantsala being compared with rafi sahib,a singer of international standing while ghantsala is hardly known outside the claustraphobic confines of his own state.he is not widely known even in tamil nadu and much less in kerala.in north india nobody has ever heard of him.no north indian maestro has ever mentioned him and even south indian stalwarts like a r rehman,yeshudas and spb root for rafi.in which dreamland do you live,mr pardus? i would recommend to you a pakistani sufi singer– pathanay khan.listen to him.ghantsala has a voice strikingly resembling a second rung pakistani punjabi singer,inayat hussein bhatti.you haven’t probably heard atta ullah khan.let me tell you that pakistan was far ahead of india in music in the seventies,the period of ascendancy of kishore in hindi movies.you should hear some of that sufi music.
anilji,there is no need to be perturbed over unfair criticism.rafi sahib was a saintly person and in his life time he faced many brickbats calmly.let us take inspiration from one of his finest songs,the like of which was beyond the singing capabilities of kishore or ghantsala:
bhala karne wale bhalai kiye ja,burai ke badle duayen diye ja
one of the greatest qualities of rafi is that he could infuse soul into a song,as in this one.you must have heard this one also:
insaaf ka mandir hai yeh bhagwan ka ghar hai
and :mehbooba teri tasveer kis tarah main banaun
in my college days i used to hear a wonderful rafi song which is not heard these days nor found on cds:
mayoos to hoon vaede pe tere kucch aas naheen aur aas bhi hai/ main apne khayalon ke sadke tu paas naheen aur pas bhi hai.
and the alaap and the song:zindagi bhar gham judai ka hamein tadpae ga.
listen to these songs,anilji,and ignore the bunkum being laid about that any other singer can be even a patch on rafi sahib.
i would just add one observation to what you have said about the flexibility of rafi’s voice.no other singer has as curvaceous a voice as rafi with the exception of lata.
Even Pyarelal (of LP due) said Mohammed Rafi was one step ahead than Kishore. Now please do not say Pyarelal doesn’t know music!!!
Post 1331: Kishore had hoarse voice. True voice means Rafi Saheb.
Hi friends:
I’ve raised my concerns before, it seems I’ll have to do it again. There is an effort from the ‘neutral’ (and objective) people to ‘rmimise’ this site. Why I’m saying ‘rmimisation’, is because over there, things are in such a state that one has to be apologetic and conditional when praising Rafisahab. But one can go ga-ga over Kishoreda without getting labelled ‘biased’ or ‘subjective’. The same thing is being tried out here (and indeed much of what’s being spread around here is xeroxes of rmim debates). And I suspect theses efforts have found some result, many of the senior contributors to this site have been staying away for long and we have stopped debating our core subjects.
It’s actually very easy to execute the agenda. One only needs some knowledge of old songs, some tech terms and a degree of smartness. Then he/she can pose as a neutral (and objective) music ‘wizard’. As we know, this ‘neutralty’ tag carries weight and ensures popularity. They join in with someone who says, for instance, that Rafisahab is good at romantic songs (because they are ‘neutral’) but add up their own (most relevant and most consequential) comments either elevating KK to the same stature or hinting at some defects in Rafisahab’s rendition. On the other hand, when some one says KK has done a mediocre job at a certain song, they object vehemently (because they are ‘neutral’) citing ‘technical’ reasons and branding the speaker and his opinion as ‘subjective’ and ‘inconsequential’. They declare that they do not need the backing of opinions from famous music personalities (because these people are ‘subjective’) but think they can pass final judgements on songs like ‘Duniya ke rakhwale’ and its creators (because they are ‘trained’ as well as ‘objective’). And they even know ‘precisely’ what elements constitute good singing (because of the training, obviously) and any additions/ deletions to these elements are all ‘subjective’. They are bound to know, you know, because they are neutral (and objective).
To wind up, let me cite some ‘partial’ statements from ‘subjective’ (and untrained?)people’
1. Mohammed Rafi was ahead of Kishore kumar- Pyarelal
2. God was partial to Rafisahab- K J Yesudas
3. Rafisahab is the most complete singer- SPB
4. I like 3 singers the most- Yesu, Balu and Rafi. But Rafi is Rafi- Illyaraja
5. These days I am on the look out for a ‘good’ male voice- A ‘Rafi’ voice- A R Rehman.
And here is some ‘neutral’ gems from ‘objective’ and ‘trained’ wizards.
1. Kishore and Rafi are ‘equally’ good. (though KK has sung more complex songs, was more ‘spontaneous’ and added so much to a song)
2. Kishore had a very good vocal range.
My comments: KK’s range was 1.5 to 1.75 octaves compared Rafisahab’s 2.5 and Yesudas sir’s 2.75.
3. KK could cover all genre of songs (though Rafisahab tried to venture into (exactly) 2 additional genre, he was found wanting in them and KK more than compensated with his own genre)
4. Kishore has the crispest, smoothest, firmest voice around.
Surajit, myk:
I do not think merely scaling high pitch or low notes is the highlight of Rafi’s singing. I think we are emphasizing on the wrong point. You have Saigal and Mukesh and (arguably Kishore) at the lower end who could do a better job than Rafi. On the higher end one can cite Chanchal.. What made a difference were
a) his amazing ability to switch back and forth instantaneously and effortlessly. Several eminent personalities like AR Rahman, Asha Bhosle, Usha Khanna had cited this. Take this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70P1uMkV56s
You will find singers who can go lower than the lowest note in this song. Arguably you can possibly find a screamer like Himesh Reshammiya who can shout higher than the highest part. But you will find no one ( I repeat, no one) who can switch back and forth so easily. Please try singing this song and you will understand what I mean.
b) His ability to retain sweetness at high pitch. Lata, Anandji and several others commented on this ability. This is because he sang from the navel..
Manish wrote:
“Sudip:
Can you elaborate as to why you say “Badi Sooni Sooni Hai†is an RDB composition? This never occurred to me. ”
-SD was in his death bed during the music composition of Mili. Though the music was made under the SD banner, RD literally did the work.
Hi Anil Cherian,
Unlike your comment, I never hinted at your regionality. That’s why your’s was a cheap shot and mine was not. I think you know the english language well enough to have come across statements like “for every x who likes so and so, there is a y … “.
There may be men who were sensually aroused after listening to “Aaja re aa zaraa …”, but I am not one of those and I personally didn’t like Rafi’s whispering and hushing at the end. I personally feel more romantic when I listen to “Bhool gaya sab kuch, yaad nahin ab kuch” or “Dil kya kare”. To each, his own. You can, in no way, prove that “Aaja re aa zaraa” is superior to “Roop tera mastana” technically speaking. If you are not talking about the technical aspects, then you are venturing into subjective aspects (like emotions) and these cannot be generalized, or proven as facts. I repeat, you CANNOT prove that “Aaja re aa zara …” is technically superior to “Roop tera mastana”. They may be superior, for you, but that is completely irrelevant and inconsequential.
Yes, like I said, singing is first and foremost about striking the right notes. And no, not all singers in HFM from the previous era were equally good at this. Mukesh and Hemant Kumar went off-key very often. Further, Mukesh, Talat, and Hemant never covered the range of moods that a Rafi or Kishore did. So, again, the singers from the previous era were NOT equally good.
Yes, if the song is not a classical song, alaaps and taans are not needed. I raised those questions because you were saying Rafi’s songs were technically superior to Kishore’s songs of the same genre. And I was asking you what makes you think so ? I repeat the question again. What makes you think that those songs of Rafi were superior to that of Kishore ? Did Kishore go besura ? Did Rafi execute any alaaps and taans, which Kishore could not ?
Kishore’s voice is not smooth ? Kishore has the crispest, smoothest, firmest voice around. If you plot a time vs. frequency graph at a give pitch, you will get a straight line. That’s why it is true-toned. That’s how smooth, crisp, and true-toned it is. And he is able to hold this at any pitch, at his mandra saptak and taar saptak. If you love Rafi’s voice and don’t like Kishore’s voice, fair enough. But that doesn’t mean Rafi’s voice is superior. If you believe that Rafi’s voice is better than Kishore’s voice, then prove it.
As to why Kishore didn’t pick up classical singing, that can only be answered by him. But that doesn’t diminish his singing capabilities one iota.
In your post to Pardus, you were comparing Rafi to Federer and Kishore to Rodick ?. I don’t follow that game as much these days, but I do know that Roddick is not as successful as Federer. I can give you a much better and more correct analogy. If Rafi is a Federer, Kishore is a Sampras. Both are great players, only their strengths are different. And good luck if you are trying to prove that Federer is a better player than Sampras.
Ref – 1329
Hi Surajit,
You can to carry out detailed analysis on the KK website and find out how many songs KK sang between 1948 to 1969. Not more than 20 to 25 songs per year. As a result he was forced to act along with singing by Ashok Kumar for his survival.
Plus during his tenure of 2 decades he never worked as an actor for any big banner film makers of 1950s and 60s. Except Dev Anand in early 50s and late 60s he manily sang for himself as an actor.
Just forgot to mention this in my previous post to Anil Cherian.
Kishore is from the same generation of singers as Rafi. His first song was in 1948, and he continued singing throughout the 1950’s and 1960’s. I wonder how that can be overlooked. Some people seem to think Kishore came out of nowhere in 1969.
I politely disagree with Swamy Ji when he categorized Kishore in a generation of singers following Rafi.
Also, the first generation of film singers is not the Rafi/Kishore generation. It belongs to the era of Saigal, Mullick etc. Rafi, Kishore, Lata etc. come in the second generation.
Questions for people:
Swamy:
I *heard* that before the recording of “Kuhu Kuhu Bole Kohalia”, Rafi requested the MD to use Manna Dey instead. Then you’ve told us the story of Rafi’s dissatisfaction after the recording. After all of this, why did the MD still insist on Rafi? Why didn’t he just opt for a classical singer or Manna Dey – singers whom I think if they rendered the song instead that people today would not criticize? Why?
Secondly, wikipedia tells me that Ghantasala left for his heavenly abode in 1974 and that NTR’s Aradhana didn’t release until 1976. Therefore, despite any differences, was Ghantasala even around to be able to sing the Telegu version of “Mere Mitwa”?
Sudip:
Can you elaborate as to why you say “Badi Sooni Sooni Hai” is an RDB composition? This never occurred to me.
Anil Cherian:
I don’t think Kishore was uncomfortable at all in singing “Mera Naina Sawan Bhadon”. In fact, he tailored the song to his comfort. If he “sounds” uncomfortable – that’s the actual emotion of the song. The character is uncomfortable and sad and shaken. It’s sort of like how some people misinterpret Rafi in “Barbaad E Mohabbat” as being “tired”. No, he’s expressing the tired, sad emotion – which suits the character perfectly. As far as singing himself – he’s dont an excellent job! My opinion any way. Similarly, Surajit (IMO) subjectively made the same misinterpretation with the Baiju Bawra songs. Rafi the singer was never uncomfortable but he was *crying* out to God and overcoming the bad guys trying to stop his singing. That was the emotion itself. Mera Naina Sawan Bhadon may have been a shortcoming of Kishore the singer but it was a hallmark of Kishore the artist. Nevertheless, there is a difference that Sudip elaborated IMO.
Fascinating discussion everyone!
Hi Anil Cherian,
I will skip through most of your post and look at the songs you have used as examples.
Regarding “Mere naina saawan bhaadon”, Kishore rendered it very well. From what do you deduce that Kishore was uncomfortable at the lower note ? His voice didn’t falter or break nor did it go husky ? There was no “damage” done here. But there are better examples. See how he does from 0:50 to 0:57 in this song, just breezes through.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGQMjBBOVOM
And another great example is here below. Listen from 1:03 to 1:07.
http://www.radioreloaded.com/tracks/?5777
In any case, I don’t understand this fixation of singing at the high (or low pitch). If high pitch singing is the yardstick, nobody would be able to beat Chanchal.
If you try to play Kishore’s and Rafi’s songs on a key-board, you will note that:
Kishore’s average “Sa” is about C or C#, while Rafi’s is about a tone higher (D or D#). It’s then not surprising that Rafi can reach a higher note with more comfort than Kishore. Conversely, Kishore can reach a lower note more comfortably than Rafi. If you want to disprove the second point, good luck.
Regarding the “live” version of Rafi, first off, it’s not at all a good example that you have picked because Rafi sounded well past his peak. Rafi’s discomfort with the low notes stares you in the face, right away in the mukhda when he ends with “….. waaaa leeee”. That part you have specified at around 2:23 is a very bad example of low pitch singing. Rafi sounds really jaded.
If you persist on using rafi, a fine example that I can give you is right here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1UVs8R1F0A
Rafi does well at the lower scale when he ends the first part of the mukhda at 0:19-0:21 and the second part of the mukhda at 0:26-0:28. But this is not lower than Kishore’s lowest.
Mr.Surajit Bose:
You wrote
‘that was a cheap shot you took by implying that Kishore’s fans are limited to areas surrounding Bengal’.
So what about your remark about me in your earlier post. Now you want me to accept that ‘Anil Cherian’ stands for any individual…..hmm… a real nice one..
You couldn’t see why ‘deewane ka zid….’ is superior to ‘waada tera waada…’ or ‘aaja re aazara…’ superior to ‘roop tera…’. It’s only natural that you don’t. For your infomation, let me point out that when someone from the human male species is sensually aroused he sounds like ‘aaja re aa…’ and doesn’t sing ‘aahs’ in between lines and sings in (just) hushed voice.
And now you want us to believe that singing is all about striking the right notes et al. Going by your logic almost every play-backer from the previous era (in HFM or elsewhere) are equally good. Let it be so…. And where did the taans and alaaps come from? You were taking great pains in your initial posts that taans and aalaps doesn’t mean a thing (because KK never could do it) when it’s not classical singing.
Speaking of voices, I didn’t say I dislike KK’s voice per se. There are a lot of voices (around the globe) I like immensly, it’s just that KK’s voice is not one of my better-liked ones. The reason is not that it’s true-toned, rather it’s not smooth enough, soft enough, sweet enough, clear enough and crisp enough. It’s a voice that goes well with loud jovial songs and sad songs pitched in the mid-ranges with minimum forrays up and down. If you believe KK’s voice can match upto Rafisahab’s, let me wish you good luck. And do you mind clarifying why KK didn’t quite pick up the classicals if his is the kind of voice that ‘classical singers aspire for’?
Hey Mr.Pardus (whatever your real name is):
What’s wrong with you? You’ve played out your role (of glorifying Mr.Bose), then why do you stay back here (since you don’t appreciate Rafisahab)? To falsely accuse people? Shame on you, rather…
When did I say I pity you? Can you show me? When did I say ‘I hate Kishore’? Can you show me? And what was the racist comment? That a Bose or Banarjee would fall for KK’s voice and not a Cherian? Where’s the racism? If someone says a Cherian is more likely to be bowled over by K.J.Yesudas than a Bose, would you say it’s racism? Anyway it’s not surprising since it’s from a want-to be-called nuetral (and actually Kishore-worshipping) fellow. I know this clan well enough, with their hypocricies and double-standards. Who told you I’m not technically qualified to assess songs/voices? Do you want me to flaunt my credentials like some others?
And when it comes to Rafisahab and KK it’s not just a matter of liking one more than the other, may be it holds true w.r.to KK V Hemantda. But Rafisahab is so much ahead of KK to deserve a comparison on all-round ability. The only areas where there can be a comparison between the two is popularity, jovial songs and ‘y’ songs (as explained by Haldar sir in this thread). It’ almost like comparing Roddick to Federer. Roddick has a big serve (read a booming voice), a big forehand (read a flair for jovial song) but does he have a ‘game’ to match upto Federer’s? May be on a superfast court (a song like ‘jaanoo meri jaan…’) Roddick can hold his own but on others… he would be there to be battered and buried.
By the way, I liked some of your advises… and would be glad to have more of them. And I really appreciate your loyalty, would love to have a friend/fan like you..
post 1322 : pardus ji: you are cent percent or 200 percent right with your views . music comes naturally to the mind and to the soul. some writers herein trying to drive there points herein should know that it’s easier for one to take a horse to a well than making him drink the waters. same is true to music too. i am in agreement with your view – that no one must thrust their tase on others , it must come naturally. and singers/musicians must be treated on their merits – nothing else. binu nair, rafi foundation. mumbai. binus2000@hotmail.
MR.RAFIAN, I DON’T HAVE ANY RECORDED VERSION WITH ME. SPB SANG IT LIVE IN A RDB MEMORIAL CONCERT (TELECAST IN A SONY CHANNEL) SOMETIME IN THE LATE ’90S/EARLY ’00S.
ALL:
SINCE THE MERE NAINA SONG HAS BEEN MENTIONED, LET ME MAKE A FEW OBSERVATIONS. PLS. LISTEN TO THE ‘REAL’ VERSION OF THE SONG.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnORRvCp5ko
BEAUTIFULLY RENDERED (AS EXPECTED FROM THE GREAT SINGER).
NOW PLS. WATCH THIS ONE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QB8YHzEMog
SOUNDS LIKE A POOR COUSIN OF THE FIRST, RIGHT?. kk IS DISTINCTLY UNCOMFORTABLE THRU MUCH OF THE SONG HAVING TO DEAL WITH NOTES BENEATH HIS COMFORT ZONE (SHATTERING THE MYTH OF HIM BEING OH-SO-GOOD AT LOWER NOTES). EG. THE INITIAL ‘HAHAHA….’ (0.07-0.10), ‘PYASSAA….’ AT EVERY TURN(0.39-0.41, 1.03-1.05, FOR INSTANCE.), THE FIRST TWO LINES OF EVERY STANZA ETC. HE’S DONE A DECENT JOB AT THE HIGHER NOTES (‘AB SOCHOON NAHIN PHOOLE….’ FOR INSTANCE). BUT THE DAMAGE HAD ALREADY BEEN DONE, BIG-TIME. THE SONG CHALLENGED SINGER’S VOCAL RANGES (THOUGH NOT AS FIERCLY AS MANY OF THE RAFISAHAB SONGS) AND KK CAME UP SHORT. BUT WHAT’S THE BIG DEAL, HIS FANS HAVE CONDONED IT (AS THEY DO ALL THE TIME) AND INDEED THEY MAKE A BIG HUE AND CRY ABOUT THE ‘EMOTIONS’ HE’S PUT INTO THIS SONG.
NOW PLS. WATCH RAFI SAHAB (LIVE) GOING THRU HIS ACT.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGTQqfDxlEc
WHAT A FLOWING STYLE AND SMOOTH VOICE (THRU VARIOUS RANGES). PLS. LISTEN TO HIM HITTING THE LOWEST NOTES AT 2.27-2.30 AND THE HIGHEST ONES AT 2.51-2.55 AS IF HE’S TALKING A WALK IN THE PARK. AND THE EMOTIONS? IT’S THERE IN PLENTY (EVEN IN THIS LIVE VERSION), BECAUSE HE’S NOT STRUGGLIMG WITH NOTES.
AND NOW WATCH THIS ONE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfTggWSd1tg.
CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF PEOPLE WITH PERFECTLY UN-TOLERABLE VOICES PICKING UP THE MIKE AND BELTING OUT SONGS, THINKING ‘IF KK DID IT WHY NOT ME’?
SWAMIJI:
YOU ARE RIGHT. THE FIRST GENERATION SINGERS DESERVE EVERY BIT OF PRAISE THAT’S BEEN SHOWERED UPON THEM. I JUST WISH THE NEW-GEN KIDIDES AND TEENIES REALISE HOW GREAT THOSE PEOPLE WERE.
Anil Cherianji,
I apologize for my previous post. To me, art is completely subjective. One cannot measure art and one cannot measure happiness or joy one derives when experiencing an art like when listening to music.
It is impossible for me to measure or rate or compare the “move” that I get from hearing a Kishoreda’s song or Rafi saab’s song or Ghantasalaji’s song. I don’t plan to get moved by a song or a singer. It just happens. If it doesn’t happen, then it doesn’t happen.
To my mind, Kishoreda and Rafi saab sound equally good. I enjoy both their songs. I don’t try to compare which one of the two I enjoy more.
I really hate comparisons of art-practioners. But if I truly have to choose one, then to me Ghantasalaji is the greatest music talent in Indian Cinema so far, considering his film-singing, classical-singing and music-direction skills put together. But I don’t make it a point to convince others to agree with my views. And I am perfectly fine if others have their own choices (as long as they are fine with me having my own choice).
Please remember that tastes don’t need any technical justification, nor do they need any particular reason. You like Rafi saab because to your ears, he is the perfect singer. Basically you like him, that’s it.
Similarly, you don’t like Kishoreda’s voice or singing. Again, that is your taste too. You needn’t technically justify why you don’t like his voice. In fact, you can’t do that.
You really aren’t even technically qualified to justify why or where Rafi saab is a perfect singer (or Kishoreda is a bad singer) especially when you can’t even tell the raags of a song (like how easily Surajitji does).
So technical justification makes you look like a fool. Accept (to yourself first), that is the way your taste is. Then try to accept that others could be different.
Yes there are many who have exactly the same tastes/opinions as you have.
But there are also many people whose tastes don’t necessarily go along with you. To someone else’s ears Kishoreda could be the perfect singer, while they can’t stand Rafi saab’s singing (believe me there are such people). And to yet someone else, Ghantasalaji could be the perfect singer.
But most of us really don’t care. To us, we enjoy a song, either Kishore’s or Rafi’s or someone else’s. Our tastes aren’t abnormal (because going by that logic, your taste would be abnormal in our minds). Please remember, when it comes to taste/opinion in art, there is no superior or inferior. There is no right or wrong.
Don’t let your obsession with Rafi saab turn in to hatred and intolerance for other singers (and their fans). When your mind is filled with such hate, it is you (and people around you) who is affected the most. Music is supposed to bring joy and peace.
Thanks,
Pardus
post 1304 : mohd rafi was not a “classical singer” at all. do not get this premise wrong . please do not judge him as a classical singer. if you do that all your “theories” will go wrong. h.f.m. is a different ball game altogether and hence its seen that the real classical masters – i repeat , the real classical masters would not have anything to do with hindi films and its music. as a student of classical music , please please do not ever compare mohd rafi with what you are learning in your classical classes. you are bound to approach the wrong tree. mohd rafi , lata , saighal, kishore kumar and many of their ilk excelled in hindi film songs. manna dey was a real exception who had deep classical roots. in fact manna dey was the perenniel threat to rafi for forty long years. fate plays some real and peculiar games, my friend. rajesh khanna’s rise and kishores form – was unpredicted. rafi – on world tour, the need to take rest from hectic singing, religious minded people coercing rafi to quit singing and few other reasons saw kishore kumar’s stock rising post aradhna. coming back to the topic, mohd rafi was never a genious in classical singing. but, rafi is a genious in all the genres of the hindi film songs he sang during his illustrous career span – for no other singer has “matched” mohd rafi song to song – by far. and, this is not to underestimeate some of the very great songs of your favourite singer kishore kumar whose case you have been pleading for quite some time in this thread. binu nair, rafi foundation, mumbai. binus2000@hotmail.com
Anil Cherianji:
I am as much moved by Kishoreda’s “Phoolon Ke Rang Se” as much (if not more than) as any Rafi saab’s voice/songs. Please don’t think that I haven’t heard Rafi saab’s songs. I have heard virtually everything from “Ehsaan Tera Hoga” to “Ek Butt Banunga” to “Likhe Jo Khat Tujhe” to “Dil ka Bhanwar Kare Pukaar” to “Suhaani Raat Dhall Chuki” to “Chal kaaye Jaam” to “Main Zindagi Ka Saath Nibhaata Chala Gaya”.
Not just “Phoolon Ke Rang Se”, several of Kishoreda’s songs including “Pal Pal Dil Ke Paas”, “Woh Shaam Kuch Ajeeb Thi”, “Badi Sooni Sooni Hai”, “Yeh Shaam Masatani”, “Gaata Rahe Mera Dil”, “Mere Sapnon Ki Rani”, “Thandih Hawah Yeh Chandini”, “Dil Kya Kare”, “Sama Hai Suhaana Suhaana” move me as much, if not more than, any of Rafi saab’s great numbers.
If you feel sad/pity for me, for getting “moved enough” by Rafi saab’s songs. I feel equally sad/pity for you for not getting “moved enough” by Kishoreda’s songs.
I mean honestly, how can you be so shamelessly racist? Did you forget the basic saying that “Beauty lies in the beholder’s eye”? It is ridiculous that you are trying to objectify something that is purely subjective.
BTW, I am not a Bengali. Emotional involvement in a song is a subjective thing. People are different. Not all of them need to have the same taste as you do. I can understand it if you personally don’t like Kishoreda’s songs or renditions. But please do not try to universalize your opinions/tastes as the right way or thing.
How can there be a dispute on tastes? As the saying goes: de gustibus non est disputandum
Not just me, I know several native Hindi-speaking folk who get as much, if not more, moved by Kishoreda’s songs as Rafi saab’s songs.
You seriously sound like a religious fundamentalist here (only my religion is the true religion kind of thing).
Please google “Hal Hickman quote opinion” and read the 3rd link. It would be the best answer for you.
Comparison on technical details are fine, but your statement that unbiased people can’t get moved as much by Kishoreda’s songs is laughable (and itself reeks of bias).
BTW, I am completely neutral in Rafi-Kishore debate. I have no preferences. and enjoy both their good songs equally. Both have songs covering a gamut of emotions/situations, it is really futile (for me) to place one over other.
Thanks,
Pardus
Also, I forgot to mention, Rafi possessed the best qualities of all other singers, and all other singers did not possess any of his best qualities.
Rafi was truly a “phenomenon”.
Rafi was like “all other singers rolled into one”.
He could do everything others could do, but all others could not do anything that he could do. Others could sing in and specialize in certain genres, but Rafi could sing in and specialize in “all” genres, which seperated him from the rest. He was an ‘all rounder’, and truly the greatest singer of all time.
Ref Post 1304:
Alright, you may love Kishore’s voice and that is absolutely fine, but even then, his voice cannot be compared to Rafi’s voice. True, this is a subjective issue, but if one looks at the whole picture without subjective claims or bias, one can see Rafi clearly had the best voice among all singers. In terms of vocal range, sweetness, melody, versatility, various shades, modulation etc., Rafi was miles ahead of Kishore and other singers. You may admire Kishore’s vocals, but don’t compare him to Rafi or put him in the same league as Rafi.
This is the whole ‘crux’ of the issue. Moreover, Kishore simply doesn’t have songs that are as hard or as difficult to render as Rafi. This is your main argument, however one doesn’t need to hear a lot of music to know this. You may say people have not heard most of Kishore’s songs, but for me who has heard most of his repertoire (from my good friends who have most of his Hindi and Bengali songs), Kishore does not match up to Rafi in any way, in terms of difficulty of songs, voice, range etc. I do agree, he could sing great melodies, pathos songs, fun songs, romantic songs etc. but that was his forte, simple and straight, he could not go beyond that into other genres such as ghazals or qawwali’s etc. or take songs to different levels because he did not have those capabilities. The problem also lies when you compare him to Rafi. Kishore is a great singer within his range, but don’t compare him to Rafi, its simply not possible. It’s like comparing apples and oranges, they are poles apart. I am surprised you have never mentioned any of Kishore’s many drawbacks/limitations, choosing only to commit a mistake in comparing him to Rafi.
Personally I don’t find anything extraordinary in Kishore’s voice (as I mentioned before), it was good (mostly in the 50’s and 60’s), but it had this shrill (which developed more in the later years) which I find quite irritating, and to me it’s not as sweet or melodious or breathtaking as the voices of Rafi, Lata, Yesudas, Mukesh, Asha etc.
Also, your claim that Rafi was a great singer outside of the classical genre, may be your opinion, but it is not a fact. Rafi was definitely excellent in the classical genre, as can be seen by his songs, and there are many classical songs of Rafi that exhibit intricate taans and alaaps. Also the fact that legendary classical vocalists and greats also ranked him the best in the classical field as well as the greatest of all time overall also proves that further.
Furthermore, to equate Rafi and Kishore in the same bracket as in i.e “both were great in many genres” is simply ridiculous and the reason is Rafi covered much more ground than Kishore. Please tell me how many ‘real’ ghazals, qawwali’s, bhajans, patriotic songs, classical songs etc. Kishore had, then you can definitely put him in the same bracket as Rafi (which will never happen). A knowledgeable die-hard Kishore fan would never do that, because it is simply not possible. To you, they may be in the same league, but looking at it from a realistic point of view, they definitely are “not”.
You can always have an opinion, but you can never change facts.
—————————–
Swamy-ji,
I appreciate your views. You may be a Ghantasala fan (which is great) as well as a Rafi fan (which is also great), and the fact that you acknoweldge Rafis supreme greatness shows that you know what true music is about. Rafi did cover much more genres than Ghantasala, and was far more versatile, one can clearly see that from analyzing their repertoires, and refer to Mr. Cherian’s post on the same subject. Also the fact that many SI’s consider Rafi to be the best singer of all time, and not the other way around with Ghantasala shows a lot too. It’s not where you sing, its the impact you make, and Rafi made the biggest impact.
Even if some Rafi fans have claimed Ghantasala the greatest, it does not mean he was better than Rafi. Surely Ghantasala is great, but one cannot place him in the same league as Rafi for several reasons such as voice, range, versatility, modulation, melody etc. Rafi was far beyond the capabilities of any singer (as is mentioned by most musicians) which is why no one can put any singer in his league. As I mentioned, one cannot compare Kishore to Rafi since they are poles apart, the same can apply to Ghantasala. An example, I know a lot of Telegu people as well, infact some of them are a apart of my family, who totally love and admire Ghantasala but even they say Rafi can never be surprassed. If one has heard a lot of Rafi songs, then one will never associate any other singer in the same league. The only way something like that can happen is if one has a bias, or one has not heard a lot of Rafi.
Rafi is truly the benchmark. Not other singer receives as much attention as Rafi. If you look throughout the Net, you will definitely find fans of other singers comparing their favourite to Rafi. Whether its Kishore, SPB, Yesudas, Ghantasala, Talat, Mukesh etc. the name of ‘Rafi’ will always pop up somewhere which is proof that others also see Rafi as the benchmark, and shows Rafi is the greatest of all time. I am not sure why the name of Ghantasala came up on this site, but a Ghantasala fan brought up the comparison himself, in a Rafi forum, so doesn’t that show you again why Rafi is regarded as the greatest singer of all time ?. Ghantasala is hardly mentioned by most people when talking about the best singers, usually the names of Yesudas, SPB, and others pop up, with Rafi leading the list (as expected), and this is a fact, unless one is living in their own world.
The only singer who can be compared to Rafi ‘fair and square’ is Lata Mangeshkar.
Also, about the NTR-Rafi story, NTR and the makers of ‘Aradhana’ were of the view that Rafi was the only singer who could modulate his pitch so effectively which is why they asked him to sing for the film. This is regardless of the fact that NTR and Ghantasala had a dispute going on at that time.
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Raju,
No one took over Rafi’s unmatched position in singing, he always was and always will be the greatest singer of all time. Kishore just became popular due to many factors, and nothing to do with him being more talented than Rafi. Where was Kishore in the 50’s and 60’s ?, he was on the sidelines for a very long time. Also, look at Rafi’s track record, 40’s, 50’s, 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s of brilliance, consistency and magic, something no other singer has done. You can never compare Rafi’s unmatched rule over such a huge industry to Ghantasala’s rule over a particular regional industry, the two are far apart.
Why is everyone comparing their favourite singer to Rafi ?. We Rafi fans don’t compare Rafi to any singer because we know he is the greatest. Why don’t you compare Kishore to Ghantasala or Ghantasala to Mukesh or whatever other comparisons you want, and admit that Rafi is the greatest singer of all time. Rafi is in a seperate league and class all by himself, don’t put any other singer in the same place, because no one else but Lata deserves to be there.
Hi Anil Cherian,
Well, based on what I have read so far here, most rafi fans fall into categories 1 and 2. Someone says Kishore’s songs are too straightforward to sing, and another asks whether Kishore has sung beautiful songs like so and so. Further, it’s immaterial whom you consider as Rafi’s nearest rival. As a Rafi fan, you might think Rafi has no rivals, but that doesn’t make it the truth or a fact. It’s just your opinion.
Yes, I did see that post from you where you posted songs of Kishore and Rafi on same actors. But I fail to see how Rafi was superior to Kishore in those songs. Did Kishore miss any notes ? Did he go off-key ? Did Rafi execute any intricate alaaps or taans in all those songs ? I mean, if you and Binu Nair and most of the people on this forum like those songs of Rafi better, fair enough. I won’t argue that point because I like those songs myself (though I must admit I felt very much uncomfortable towards the last parts of “aaja re aa zaraa”). But that doesn’t make him a better singer than Kishore, technically speaking.
Also, that was a cheap shot you took by implying that Kishore’s fans are limited to areas surrounding Bengal. I have friends from Goa, Maharashtra, Andhra, Tamil Nadu (no Banerjees or Chatterjees or Boses) among other places who are fans of Kishore. I used your name as a synonym for an “individual” because you kept repeating how you were moved by Rafi’s voice. Well, of course, Rafi sahab is Rafi sahab. Same as Kishore da is Kishore da, or Mukesh is Mukesh. That’s a very vacuous statement, to say the least.
Coming to the voice, Kishore’s voice always had the resonance. Songs like “Aa chal ke tujhe”, “Mere mehboob qayamat hogi”, “Ajnabi tum jaane pehchaane”, “Koi humdum na rahaa” all fall in the pre-1968/1969 era and his voice is delightfully sonorous and resonant in all these renditions. Kishore is a poor-man’s-talat ? Kishore’s and Talat’s voice are poles apart, though he could sing somewhat like Talat when he wanted to. Talat had a natural vibrato (tremor) in his voice (which later became a tremolo). It was never the firm, even-toned voice that Kishore had. But when Kishore sang for Anil Biswas (who favoured Talat over other singers), he could sing in Talat’s style.
If you dislike true-tone voices, bully for you; but that in itself doesn’t mean anything. In fact, in classical music, singers aspire for true-tone, flexible voices. That’s what separates a great classical singer like Kesarbai or Kishori Amonkar from other classical singers. Kishore had a smooth, firm, and a naturally “sureela”voice. Coming from a home where I grew up listening to a lot more classical songs than film songs, I can recognize a good voice when I hear one. Kishore had a very good vocal range (about 2 octaves, which is nothing to sneeze at).
It’s not a myth that Kishore could sing very well at a low-pitch. But that’s more to do with how his voice is structured. Kishore’s average “Sa” is roughly C/C#, while Rafi’s would be about D#. When you combine a relatively low-pitched and a true-toned voice (both are suggestive of Kishore’s voice), you get a voice that doesn’t go husky or thick in the lower registers. Just listen to Hemant Kumar when he starts off with “Yaa …” in “Ya dil ki suno duniyawaalon” (Anupama). He strikes a low pitch, but it’s all husky.
My previous post is addressed to Mr.Surajit Bose. The omission’s regretted.
Sorry to barge in but I just found my name in your post, so thought of jotting down something.
Your arguments about Rafi admirers, it seems, are anchored on 4 main assumptions.
#1. We think Rafi sahab is superior (to KK) because of his greater technical mastery and the fact that he sang more complex songs.
#2. We consider Rafi sahab to be better because he sang better songs.
#3. We consider KK as Rafisahab’s ‘nearest rival’.
#4. We are ‘subjective’ because we declare Rafisahab is the best and you are ‘objective’ because you think KK is as good.
Sad to say, none of these assumptions are true. I believe You’ve read my post wherein I’ve mentioned why I’m not too fond of KK (though I like this multi-faceted artist for what he is). Similarly I can post a piece on why I love Rafisahab, but the problem is that the post will run into several page. Suffice it to say that Rafisahab is ‘Rafi sahab’ (I can’t think of a better adjective). May be you would do good to go thru my posts where I’ve given links to some of Kishoreda’s famous songs along with some of Rafisahab’s songs in the same genre or picturised on the same actor and you’d probably realise that the best of KK is no match for the less-than-best from Rafisahab.
You wrote, “For every Anil Cherian who is moved by Rafi’s voice, there is another Anil Cherian who is moved by Kishore Kumar’s voice”. I can’t agree. I’d rather say “for every Anil Cherian who is moved by Rafisahab’s voice, there is a Surajit Bose (or Banarjee, or Chatterjee) who is moved by KK’s voice”.
Your analysis of Kishoreda’s voice is informative. I agree with many of the views but have to disagree on some others. Yeah, his voice (from about 68/69) was sonorous and resonant. But was it flexible? No… Actually it was rather flexible in the ’50s and early ’60s but then it wasn’t resonant or rich at that point of time (He sounded a bit like poorman’s Talat saab, then). Agree that KK’s voice came out in uniform volume (as well as uniform character) thru the ranges. However, personally speaking, this is a reason why I’m not too fond of him. I like someone whose voice undergoes a change in structure/character thru the various ranges and I can’t think of anyone other than Rafisahab as a better example (Lataji is a classic example from the female side). And I can’t agree that KK’s voice was equally good at all ranges. I would say his voice was at its best in a range between F/G in the second octave thru C/C# in the third. In other words KK also (like Rafisahab) had a (natural) high octave voice and it’s a myth that he was very good at lower notes. I wouldn’t also agree that KK had ‘a very good vocal range’, rather one can say Kk had a good enough (for a play-back singer) vocal range.
To wind up, here’s a (not-so-famous) song from the ‘baadshah’ where he sounds as deep and strong (yet sweet) as any:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9U61c828rw
and here’s a famous one with similar vocal properties
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ahF-bLXOq4
TO :
ALL RAFISAHAB FANS I M SUNEIL M I HAVE CREATED FORUM ON RAFISAHAB YOU CAN UPLOAD AND DOWNLOAD SONGS ALSO SO PLEASE VISIT MY WEBSITE FORUM MY FORUM ID IS http://www.enjoyatkhushi.com/smf/index.php
YOU HAVE 2 REGISTER THAN ONLY U WILL ABLE 2 UPLOAD OR DOWNLOAD SO PLEASE KINDLY GO N VIST MY FORUM . I THANKS HAMARAFORUMS FROM BOTTOM OF MY HEART ALSO FOR GIVING ME INSPIRATION TO CREATE THE FORUM AND TO KEEP RAFISAHAB ALIVE IN OUR HEARTS .
JAB TAK SURAJ CHAND RAHEGA RAFISAHAB TUMARA NAAM RAHEGA . JAI RAFISAHAB .
THANKS & REGARDS . .
SUNIEL .
if only these “jokers” would not have compared kishore kumar and shri ghantasala with legend mohd rafi saaheb; then i would have loved kishore kumar and shri ghantasala – a little bit more. this is the fact.
the jokers have surely presented their favourite singers “badly” and has undermined their individuality by comparing them with legendary mohd saaheb.
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dreamers can dream and say in this forum that their favourite singer is equal or better than mohd rafi – in this “open forum” but really the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
three units of rafi foundation – coming up in three indian cities,celebrating the music of mohd rafi. the places are: chennai, pune and mangalore.
binu nair, rafi foundation, mumbai.
Dear Anil
Can you send me the SPB version of ‘Mere naina’ to rafian1@yahoo.co.in
swamy ji post 1300 : there is a mutual admiration club. the club is called sharma-verma club. in this club : a person known as sharma will compliment verma no end. and verma will compliment sharma – no end . this will go on for about hours to gether with both saying …. na, na, tussi great ho to each other.
in the music field too i know of such sharma-verma team who will kill everyones mood in a music sitting by their “predictable singing”.
reading your post 1300 swamiji, i remembered the verma-sharma episode.
binu nair, mumbai
Dear Raju,
No one overtaken Mohd Rafi in 1970’s jest listen Mohd rafi songs in 1970’s yes the media tried there best but they was not able.Mohd rafi singed for around 160 films from 1970 to 1976,whey they said Mohd rafi back in with RD in 1976 do u think that is true what about Madan Mohan with Mohd Rafi before 1976 and same to LP??
Mohd Rafi was and will be at top singer like KK i don’t think can overtak singer like Mohd Rafi and Lataa ji.yes you can say the actors for who Mohd rafi gave great songs they switch to KK but KK was not able to give them him one of them is our great Dilip Kummar,Jeetu,DharJi and few more who finished without Mohd Rafi
when say that Ghantasala never been overtaken as Mohd Rafi been,Ok answer if any great name as Madan Mohan,Shammi Kapoor,Naushand,OPN,Lata Ji,LP and many what they said about mohd Rafi any said about your Ghantasala!!!!!!!!!!!!???
Post 1300: Nothing to argue, it’s a waste of time, world knows Rafi Saheb is the best.
three wise men ???? wants rafi lovers to agree that : a) kishore kumar is the best singer in the h.f.m. ( they do not care if KK regards mohd rafi – as the best ) in the field and b) that shri ghantasala is the better singer than kishore kumar and mohd rafi.
lets’s have a opinion poll on the abovequiz/riddle/analysis/interpretations/half-truths/etc. etc or else banish these wise ment from the mohd rafi lovers lovable website.
binu nair, mumbai
Anil, I continue – post 1298
Good catching of my analysis. I too agree with most of your points. I too was mentioning the south indian legend only from a south indian perspective. I cannot place him in north indian or bollywood perspective, without his contribution there. Similarly, as you were mentioning, I also cannot agree that rafi sahab (despite his talents) would have dominated the south indian industry, as he had dominated the bollywood industry. (That is a different issue which you and i are aware and hence no comments.) Moreover, you should remember that rafi and ghantasala were the first (and foremost) generation singers – in the 50’s and 60’s, SPB, Kishore, Jesudas etc. were second generation singers (and younger to the 1st generation singers) in the 70’s and 80’s and the third generation singers – today’s singers ( I think no body is there for period as long as earlier two generation singers) So to compare jesudas (a second generation singer with the first one) with the former ones is not feasible. The same rule applies to third generation vis-a-vis second generation singers. This is because times and filmy styles and music preferences have also undergone a lot of change as the time passed between generations. Nevertheless, at all times, (to this date), the first generation singers continue to mesmerise everybody, because they did possess natural, divine and god gifted voices and as i said earlier, their contribution was originally talented without use of any digital technology as it is with today’s singers. Hence, the contribution of first generation singers is always incomparable.
Binu nair ji, – 1302
Sir, Pl. do not take it seriously, I have already written in my last line – to take in a jovial way and my comments are not in favour of anybody. I was putting some riddle as a layman who do not have any knowledge about singers, but would arrive at conclusion only on messages here. That should solve the misunderstanding. No body can dispute that rafi ji is the most admired singer.
Binu Nair, myk etc.
I think your sympathies would do better with other Kishore fans who worship Kishore like you worship Rafi. I am, however, lucky enough to enjoy songs of both without worshipping either.
The issue here is not whether Rafi is a great singer or not, because he is. And I never said anything to the contrary. It is this simplistic and erroneous assumption that Kishore doesn’t compare to Rafi that begs an explanation.
For most of the laymen, it is very easy to determine this answer: A lot of Rafi’s songs appear more difficult to sing than a lot of Kishore’s songs. Ergo, Rafi is a greater singer than Kishore.
Or another angle of approach is Rafi sang more beautiful compositions than Kishore, and therefore he is the greater singer.
Really ? I didn’t know it was so simple to analyze a singer. Well it is, if you just scratch the surface and leave it at that.
The first and foremost quality that one looks for in a singer is the voice quality and voice-culture. By voice quality, I don’t necessarily mean only one kind of voice. Kishore had a great, god-gifted singing voice. It was sonorous, resonant, and flexible.
And his voice-culture was excellent. From the mandra saptak (lower octave) to the taar saptak (higher octave), his voice rang out in full-throated ease and uniform volume. It also means correct breathing technique. This resulted in a smooth rendering without any distortions in pitch and/or volume. At the same time, he could infuse his voice with a vibrato effect when needed, especially in the first half of his career, ala Talat. And to add to this, he had a very good vocal range.
Not many singers could boast of being blessed with these gifts.
Beyond this major aspect come the other factors that I had previously already mentioned: emotional nuances in the rendition, ability to improvise and add to the composition , covering a variety of moods etc.
If Kishore’s straight songs are more popular with the public (and it is not necessarily a negative thing), the blame lies with the MD and not with the singer. It does not mean that Kishore couldn’t render intricate melodies, because he did.
I wish some of the more rational posters here would actually show that they are really open-minded by allowing me to share some of these songs with them.
Using subjective opinions regarding how a voice moves you shouldn’t be used to claim a singer’s greatness. For every Anil Cherian who is moved by Rafi’s voice, there is another Anil Cherian who is moved by Kishore Kumar’s voice. Heck, there are people who even swear by Kumar Sanu’s voice.
Coming to Rafi’s classical songs, I am looking for Rafi songs that have intricate taans or alaaps. Something along the lines of “Shiva Shankaree” by Ghantasala posted by Pardus, or any of the countless ones by Lata, of which I have highlighted two below (in the first song, listen to the opening before the actual song begins):
http://www.indianscreen.com/mp3/Lata/Munimji_1955-Lata-GhayalHiraniya-SahirLudhianvi_SDBurman.mp3
http://www.indianscreen.com/mp3/Lata/RaniRoopmati_1959-LataMangeshkar-AajaAajaBhanwar_Sarang-BharatVyas_SNTripathi.mp3
Rafi was a great singer outside of the classical genre in most other genres. Same could be said for Kishore.
Only blind & biased South Indians can consider Ghantasala to be on par with Rafi as an overall singer. I am from Andhra myself, but I know that objectively speaking Rafi is several times more superior than Ghantasala. There are components & aspects of singing in which Ghantasala was good, but overall he is just nothing in front of the mighty Rafi.
For starters, Rafi’s voice quality was just so much superior to Ghantasala. Ghantasala’s voice could maybe suit old or ugly people but was never the voice of a young handsome hero like Rafi’s was. On the other hand, Rafi’s voice had everything in it — Ghantasala’s voice sounds horrible compared to Rafi.
post 1296: another riddle here for raju : when one reads these posts and also become aware that kishore kumar worshipped rafi saaheb as one of his gurus – the other being saighal saaheb; when it’s known that kishore kumar lip synched songs in the voice of king of melody – mohd rafi and KK never did mention anything about shri ghantasala, what does it prove?
it only proves that mohd rafi is way ahead of any singer for any matter ahead than shri ghantasala and kishore kumar.
for any further proof please read the posts of rafi deewanes around the world who are taking the legends melodious works ahead under the rafi foundation label.
i am being little serious here unlike your post : 1296.
binu nair, mumbai
Would like to add another genre of songs to those which Sudipji has referred to (in which Rafisahab is the ‘undisputed’ monarch). Those are the hi-energy songs (not exactly the boisterous or funny types), something I’d refer to as Shammi Kapoor songs (not necessarily picturised on Shammiji). Take for instance ‘akele ,akele, kahan jaa rahe….’, ‘badan pe sitare…..’, ‘Nazar na lag jaaye….’. or ‘Love in Tokyo….’. And then there’s off course the ‘passion-filled’ ones which has already been discussed here.