True Voice – Mohd Rafi
The following article was brought to my notice when Sharad posted it on MAS. The article has been trimmed down a bit keeping afloat Rafi details. However, anyone interested can go visit the source at http://tfmpage.com/forum/4980.6302.04.57.19.html
I am Swaminatha Iyer and I am 78 years old. I hail from Tiruchi and I am a part of music associations in Tiruchi, M’as as well as in West Bengal and Maharashtra.
I think it is wrong to condemn music or artists on either side of Vindhyas. Our Indian music is one of the few which has not been cleaned off by the western music though there has always been a influence. It speaks a lot of the richness of our music. Sometime back director of MTV had said that MTV westernized the music wherever it went but in India , MTV had to be Indianized for it to be accepted. A lot of this credit goes to the Indian film music.
I have been fortunate to have close personal association with Rafi, Sirkali, TMS, Dr. BMK, Kishore, SPB & KJY, PS, Mannadey and the one and only Lata Mangeshkar.
Comparisons are bound to come, but almost every artist or I have met considers Lata to be beyond comparison. Her talents are beyond anyone’s reach. Even Sirkazi used to talk of her singing like a die-hard fan as do countless others.
Now coming to the Rafi-SPB discussion. It might be difficult to convince an South Indian to believe Rafi is the better and at the same time Rafi crowd will never believe any other male singer comes anywhere nearer. There is one more mobile crowd, which is well conversant with Hindi and some south Indian language. Majority of them tilt to either Rafi or Kishore.
During one of my stays in M’as I had stayed with SPB. While talking of true voices he said, I don’t feel like half a singer when listening to Rafi. True voice is not a tech term but many in circle use it. Perfect example would be lata, but to understand consider our own PS who within her range is superb. People who do not have such true voices can never do justice to original. They generally underplay many parts of the song or fake it with bass/superficial singing. True voices make people like Sirkazi, Nusrat Fateh Ali khan, Lata… Inimitable. However since Sirkazi and Nusrat did not have the filmy voices their “real” following is limited to their local arena.
In addition to the true voice if the singer has a very good voice then in “most” cases he/she can better songs of others. It is this combination which makes Rafi stand out among the other male singers. There are many here who seem to have mistaken notions on a good bass and also on high pitch.
Bryan Adams does not require a monster bass in “Summer of 69” to sound real manly. It is the punch which gives that feel and that is decided only by the comfort level in most ranges (that is by what your throat can support). This you CAN never disguise with bass. Since people have talked about lack of manly voice viz. a viz. Rafi it was necessary to bring this point out. I have had the fortune of listening to most singers in studio and some times without a mike, practicing with MD’s.When Lata or Rafi do, the level is so high that people hesitate to even hum. It felt silly to sing in their presence (and it feels silly when someone says his voice isn’t manly).
In RD’s tribute when SPB sang “Aaja Aaja mein hoon” or “Chaand mera dil” it sounded only sweet and lacked punch if you compare with Rafi’s original.
Yesu once told me God has been partial to Rafi. He said “god gift term anavasyamaa romba common aa ippo use aardu”.. but idu Rafi kee thaan 100% porundu”. This person could sing “as intricately as a lady without sounding thin”, “cover any mood”, “versatility odey perfect example Rafi”. Yesu said most important is the comfort level over ranges which makes you feel God has been partial to Rafi. (But Of course in Rafi’s early career (1950’s) the voice was relatively feeble).
To people exposed to Rafi’s talent, these or any amount of praise can only seem less. I just wish he was alive and you people could get a live chance to hear him. Probably you can get hold of the DD album for the Geet Gaata Chal series where the first four episodes were dedicated to Rafi. Rafi is on camera singing “O Duniya Ke Rakwaaley” and many other songs. If you see and hear the last part you will realize why SPB said “impossible”. I think particularly those people who have talked about scales w.r.t Rafi should see this album. Its a known fact in industry that Rafi ruled high pitch and there is no male singer better in switching notes so easily. There are artists who can go beyond but then they sound strained or they don’t have pleasant voices when they venture into those territories.
Many singers of today are his compulsive followers. But they end up inheriting only part of his quality. Md. Aziz ended up with a sad voice. Mahendra Kapoor with a thick nasal voice. Anwar with a nasal voice. Sonu Nigam with a feminine voice. Rafi neither had a soft voice nor a heavy (bass) voice he had a good voice. Importantly did not strain at high notes, and voice if at all only became better at higher notes. If you see him singing it will remind you of Janaki. However diff the song is or the note is he will be smiling and singing. It is unthinkable that he cannot sing something.
There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo” song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect. There are lot of other songs of SPB where this great singer has played with songs in total control. You will find most south Indian singers who have had a good exposure say that it is beneficial to learn Hindustani as it gives better breath control and improves expression.
Rafi was not only able to glide over a song, the important thing was that he could express each word/sound when singing. It is one thing to hold your breath, start and reach a crescendo (high note), as like in “Shankara”, “Anbey (Yennai kaan villaye)” it is different ballgame if you have to do it from low notes or suddenly switch notes. With practice the former can be done, latter requires a special gift. Rafi had a natural ability to do the latter. In “Tum joh mil gaye ho” there is such a transition in the “karwaan mil gaya” part. I have never seen anyone do justice to most of his songs in my life time. In “parda hai parda” quawaali the similar part is “kar doon to, Akbar mera naam”. In fact most of his songs will have these specialty as it was his natural ability to sing freely in a wide range at the same time giving that extra expression.
Whereas SPB takes us to heavens with “Idu oru pon maali”,”Ilaya nila” “bisiladarenu”(kannada), when he sings Rafi’s song it lacks the punch or expression, though it has the bass. But at least most agree that SPB does some justice to original, whereas most others murder the original.
One trivial point I would like to add is that singing in Hindi is harder. There are more “JHA”,”CHA”,”HA”,”THA”, “KHA”,”JA”,”FA”. These take away the breath faster. The more expressive you are the more air you are using up. Just singing from Nabhi will not help, your throat also needs to do a lot, for singing in Hindi, Bengali etc. SPB makes you fall in love with his south Indian songs but same cannot be said about his Hindi songs. If you just glide through words having these sounds, you will never be expressive. Doing this as well as reaching high notes is not easy. Rafi had this gift and that’s why it is difficult to imagine anyone else in his shoes. Song “Chalkaaye jaam” has so much expression that it is unthinkable how anyone can sing it. When Rafi switches to a high note with “Mitwaa” in the song “Chaahunga mein tughey” you cannot replicate it with bass. Most others will sound as if they are shouting in such cases. That man’s throat had the ability to freely sing at such levels.
Versatility is not just the ability to sing in various styles, more important is how good you are singing in those styles. You have lot of Ghazal singers today but when Rafi sings a Ghazal you will sit up and take notice. You don’t have to be part of the Ghazal listeners crowd. This is one important aspect. Whatever style you sing you should be able to pull the common man to listen and not just a particular crowd. Pick “parda hai parda” or any qawalli and it will stand tall among other qawalli’s.
Variety is amazing :
songs of Guru Dutt’s Khagaz key phool or songs like abhi naa jao chod key, Aaja teri yaad aayi, Aaj kal mein dhal gaya, Aaj kal terey merey pyaar, Aasmaan sey aaya farishta, Dil ney pyaar kiya hai, Deewana mujh saa nahi, Din dhal jaaye, Duniya paagal hai, Jaane walon jara, Dil joh na kaha saka, Dil key jharokon mein, Dil kaa bhavar, Chalkey teri aakkhon sey, Kar chaley hum fida, khilona jaan kar tum, Woh jab yaad aay, Woh hain jara khafa, Vaadian mera daaman, Pathar key sanam, Chaand mera dil, Main zindagi kaa saath, Mainey poocha chaand sey, sun sun jaalima, Koi jab raah na paay, hum to chaley pardes, badan pey sitaarey, laal chadi maidaan, Tum jo mil gaye, O meri shaahey, Sau baar janam lengey, Tum mujhey yoon bhula, Tumney mujhey dekha, Terey merey sapney, Tumny pukaara hum chaley aay
Name a situation/mood and Rafi’s song will be there on the top.
Swami
The fact that Rafisahab sang in HFM only partly explains his higher fame and acceptance compared to regional singers. Personally speaking, his greater reach may be attributed to what may be called “a universal voice”. Let me try explaining with examples.
Please watch the following videos (of some well-known singers in English):
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=5yTqSgCHy9c
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=r_sU0pAE-fE
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=ii0HPhUVmsg
Now please listen to Rafisahab in ‘pukarta chala hun mein’
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=ADpJZvqAypI
Is this voice typically ‘Punjabi/ North Indian’? It is not… it is very much a ‘global voice’, comparable to any of the universally acclaimed voices in its timbre and texture.
Another singer who (in my opinion) who has this voice texture/property in India is K.J.Yesudas.
When we speak about some of the other great singers that we have had (Ghantasalaji for instance), we can’t dispute the fact that they all had good voices but are they ‘universally accepted’ good voices?
Here’s ‘my way’ from Elvis. Remembering him on his birthday:
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=4HhAcvlCPb4.
Hi all:
I’m all for comparisons, as long as it remains positive, good-natured and informative. Infact I learned about Ghantasalaji only because of the comparison series that was going on in this site. Similarly, the Rafi sahab-Kishoreda comparison made me sit up and listen to many relatively lesser known songs by both these great artists.
However when people start “judging” and “deciding” rather than “comparing”, things get un-healthy with all sorts of personal attacks creeping in.
Sudip dat – ref. post 1446
Fine sir, I am with you. There should not be comparison between great singers. In fact, this discussion between these two great playback singers ghantasala – rafi stopped long back before dhaniramji created it again. In my view, rather posts were restricted as replies to only dhaniram’s views and there was no other issue. In fact, this is only sir rafi ji’s site and his wonderful voice and contribution to h f m. You might have seen even earlier there was a lot of discussion about kishore vs rafi and it was a very unpleasing debate for long.
I completely stand by Dhani Ramji on the issue of Ghantsala. I am personally ignorant about Ghantasala (just like Dhani Ramji), but that’s not the point.
The question is that of relevance. GHANTASALA IS IRRELEVANT TO THE TOPIC OF DISCUSSION.
This site is about Hindi film music and comparisons have been drawn among hindi singers. However great he might be, there is no room for Ghantasala here. If people are comparing between India and China and someone introduces Japan in the middle, he is inviting trouble. Japan may be a great country, but is irrelevant in the India-China discussion.
By dint of belonging to Bollywood, Rafi, Kishore, Lata, Manna and Asha are national figures. Lets accept that as a fact, however unfair, and move on. As a bengali, I can bring up regional names like Anup Ghosal, Manabendra Mukherjee (an apprentice of Mehdi Hasan), Satinath Mukherjee, Sandhya Mukherjee, Arati Mukherjee, Shyamal Mitra and tons of other singers.. But those are entirely irrelevant. Most Bengalis (including me) think the matinee idol Uttam Kumar was the greatest Indian actor ever. So why not introduce him in an Amitabh Bachchan discussion?
The blogger makes some good points, but I am not in complete agreement with it. First up he was correct about mentioning Lata for she has a superior range than most. I don’t understand this concept of true voice. Every person has a natural range. I have my own, in fact anyone who has learnt how to sing would know exactly what their natural range is. At my range I can sing from the throat, nabhi, head voice, etc. Now how much control you have over voice is a different aspect and there is also the voice modulation factor that Asha excelled in. Many people in this world might have Rafi’s range. It’s another story to have Rafi’s range, sweetness in his voice, etc. That is a great combination. One thing to note is that while hitting a high note is great, there are some other things here then what the then 78 yr old blogger, Mr. Swaminatha Iyer mentioned. It goes without saying that screaming or going nasal or in a head voice to reach that note is not right. The next step is to prevent “thinning” of voice and the final step is to look at ones voice modulation at that scale. Rafi was restricted in his voice modulation at that scale. Don’t get me wrong reaching that scale in itself is fateh to me, but I am merely discussing what I have learnt. My dad (a real Rafi fan) sings “Rakhwale” just fine without any stress on his voice because it is part of his range. Just like Mr. Iyer I know people in the music business who’ve interacted with many great singers/musicians over the years. That does not mean anything. In fact, there is every chance that if you hear a singer live too often, you will here them go off-sur once in a while. There is no singer who can say they’ve never done that especially when you first start practicing a song or something new to try to get a hang of it.
Lastly Mr. Iyer mentions “Aa jaa Aa jaa”, do you know what RDB said about getting Rafi to sing “Aa jaa Aa jaa”? Mr. Iyer is an elderly gentleman and I don’t mean to offend him or anybody else in any way. I just don’t understand why the fans of such a kind and courteous human being (Rafi) have resorted to such aggression. He used to smile even at those high notes, hardly lifted his head up (my dad always points this out to me whenever we hear a Rafi song), and look at this – you are dismissing other singers with bias and without any concern for neutrality. I hardly know any South Indian singers (except for those who sing mainly classical) and if SPB is an abbreviation for the same singer who sang for some songs of Kamal Hassan and Salman Khan then it’s not fair to compare the two in Hindi songs because his expressions are not even close to Rafi – does anyone remember how Rafi said the word “Sehmi” in “Jinhe Naaz Hai Hind Par Woh Kahan Hain”? The expression stems from his understanding of the language and poetry. I am sure that since SPB is regarded so highly, he must have the same expressions and capability in other languages or even for South Indian style of Hindi. It just depends on how people hear and understand the language.
I come to mohdrafi.com looking for discussions of his songs, but I read stuff demeaning others which is not something Rafi would have liked. I am going to start writing myself about songs and singing styles and expression of Rafi, so webmaster/admin, please let me know if you are interested in neutral articles we can share. I am at http://satyansh.com/smf/index.php?board=4.0
Dear moderator,
Where is my message pl. addressed to dhaniram ji. I feel I have not posted anything wrong. Rather it is only an educative message. Anyhow, I respect your decision which is final. But at the same time, others should not be allowed to get away by posting messages which send wrong signals.
Refrence Dhaniram Sir,I could not cmplete my earliermail,in continuation of the same,I would request your esteemed opinion on the following
1 ) N.Dutta – specially his scores from Mr.John,and the marvellous scores of Light House ( specillay the fast paced duet – AA AA CHORI AA AA-with Geeta) and another gems from `Mere Arman Mere Sapne`
2 ) Chitrgupt- his scores from his earlier films like `Police Detective,
Naache Nagin Baaje Bin ( specially the duets like -BEET GAYEE HAI AADHI RAAT) and Madam XYZ ( KADAM PE KADAM BAHAREN LOOTHA),RAFI SAAB FANS/DETERACTORS SHOULD KNOW WHAT IS SINGING ,SPECIALLY WHO HAIL `YAAD MEIN TERI JAAG`FROM `MERE MEHBOOB`AS RAFI SAAB`S SUPERIORITY OVER THE FEMALE SINGER,
AND THE PEPPY DUET FROM `TAXI STAND`- ( AANA HAI TO CHALE AAO-WITH ASHA JI.)
3 ) IQBAL QUERESHI – YOUR MAIL ON THE SONG FROM `CHA CHA CHA`PROMPTED ME TO WRITE THIS MAIL,HIS SCORE FROM `YEH DIL KISKO DOON ( PHIR AANE LAGA YAAD – AND – KITNI HASEEN HO TUM )
I WOULD REQUEST YOU IN MY SUBSEQUENT MAILS ABOUT MD LIKE RAVI SAAB ( MASTER OF RAFI ASHA DUETS) AND LOTS ABOUT CHITRAGUPT ( KALI TOPI LAL RUMAL,ZABAK,MAIN CHUP RAHUNGI,BARKHA ETC.)
AND MORE MDSLIKE ROSHAN SAAB,HUSNLAL BHAGATRAM,HANSRAJ BAHL,SN TRIPATHI,USHA KHANNA ,ETC
LET US COME OUT OF THE MOULD OF RDB & SDB
HA
3 )
Refrence Dhaniram Sir,
I am a regular surfer on this site,but has found that majority of the mails is concentrated around establishing Rafi Saab`s superiority over other others and RDB & SDB,and songs from 1964 onwards ,when will we discussing songs from/off such MDthese days I amjust listening to songs from,
1 ) N .Dutta – specially from Mr.John,Chandrakanta,
Singh ji,
Excellent views sir about p susheela, in fact she is a very great singer like lata mangeshkar.
Dhaniram ji,
I am confused, it is not known what you are upto – You are bent upon creating a debate again between ghantasala and rafi, regarding which many people have already discussed. Anyhow, it is an astonishing factor – comparison between ghantasala and rafi has created nearly thousand messages in this forum. Stop it boss, both are unique and great in their own ways. You possess good knowledge about rafi, but same is not case with ghantasala. Why do you want to venture in making comments against a reputed singer, when you fully do not know him like rafi ji. Half knowledge is too dangerous.
Mr Haldar ji, 1424
You are right in your views sir. As you said, Sri MYK ji is a very knowledgeable person. In fact he is one of the true music lovers here, who is capable of recognising true music talents and presenting views impartially in this forum.
ref post 1431:
myk, your post clearly shows the depth of knowledge you have about the musicians. I’ve heard anibal castro live several times because he was rafi saab’s regular guitarist. Other than dattaram, sj had the legendary sebastian d’souza as his arranger. Sebastian also used to arrange for salil and op. From what I’ve heard, there hasn’t been anyone like him. sj had a star-studded orchestra. Some day we should talk about these under-appreciated musicians.
I am in Kolkata right now. Woke up this morning to someone singing “aane se uske aaye bahar…” in the street!
Mr. Dhaniram
I feel you are having incomplete knowledge of amar gayaka ghantasala. Rafi ji is in fact a very great singer whose contribution is tremendous in hindi field and who is the foremost in hindi playback singing. Regarding your comparison between both, I feel you do not possess similar knowledge about ghantasala, which you possess about rafi. I do not wish to elaborate further, I will complete in very few lines. Ghantasala was the undisputed greatest playback singer in telugu field who was conferred the best singer award every year during his entire career of 3 decades. I doubt, even if rafi ji, had got best singer award for his entire career. No body dared or even tried to come near ghantasala. In fact, his majestic voice and his presentation /range was like that where no other singer could not event try to venture. Even after his passing away, telugu people did not accept any singer because the void created by ghantasala cannot be filled up. SPB was not accepted at all upto 6 years after demise of ghantasala, with sankarabharanam in 1980, spb started growing but still spb has only 1/2 fame and admiration vis-a-vis ghantasala. The greatest music critics of andhra have acknowleded ghantasala to be the foremost. He was a freedom fighter, film producer, reputed music director, foremost playback singer, classical musician par excellence, a charitable person, a fine human being like rafi ji – this is his versatality range. In fact in his short span of life of 52 years he achieved what many could not achieve. Ghantasala has no formal education but see his success. He is acclaimed to be the only singer who invoked all the nava rasas in all his renderings i.e. all the requirements to be incorporated in a song (as per musical guidelines) to make it completely perfect that too with ease, which gift he possessed naturally. Dhaniram ji, conduct a classical concert of playback singers with ghantasala ji, – ghantasala ji will emerge the foremost. Hope you have now known about this great legend.
Mohd rafi saab is the undisputed melody king of hindi playback singing, but this does not have any issue with contribution of ghantasala and his unique contribution. Both are in different fields and both have their unique contributions. But if you bring comparison from musical point of view, (which should not be the case at all ) it is ghantasala only who leads. All great music directors of hindi field have said great things about rafi ji and similar things were said about ghantasala by telugu greats – without doubt it can be said if naushad or other hindi greats had heard ghantasala ( i do not know whether they have heard him) their opinion would have been beyond imagination. It is well known that rafi ji and lata mangeshkar themselves had the highest regards for ghantasala.
@Dhaniramji and all.
One measure of a singers success can be “how many albums did the singer carry on his own?” For instance, in most of Shammi Kapoor’s movies, all the male songs were by Rafi. Though there are great ustads in Baiju Bawra, we can safely say its still a Rafi album. Similarly Pyaasa is still a Rafi album despite presence of a Hemant Kumar song. Its also a fact that Mukesh did manage it very well. However, generally when KK fans compare him with Rafi, I have always wondered “where is the ground of comparison?”. Lets not forget that majority of the 70’s were multi-starrers wherein one has as many singer as actors. This had indeed hit badly the quality of music. My gut feeling is that KK has not carried as many albums on his shoulder as did Rafi. Interestingly, if my belief is right, more Rafi majority Dev Anand albums were better that KK majority Dev Anand albums. I believe this is also a major fact which KK fans cann’t ignore, but will ignore it.
Is it just me, or most of us here who don’t like current music coz its jam-packed with more and more singers in each album. I won’t be surprised if in the near future a single song will be sung by multiple singers grabbing words of each song. By albums, we are referring here HFM.
@Singhji (post no 1428): You said “In my view, S janaki dominating over accomplished male singers require an impartial analysis. S janaki dominating balu is fine, as spb though having some attractive contributions to his credit, in my personal view he cannot be placed on par with many of the singers (Including female singers).”
Well! In the 80’s there was almost one male singer only for tamil, telugu, and kannada, viz, SPB. So, Jankiamma dominating spb is almost as good as dominating most singers. At least that was the scenario then. However, in my opinion SPB is also second to none even among the all time top 5 playback singers. This may look surprising to many here, but I have considered here longevity, range, and Its not just the sheer numbers, whenever a good tune with sensible lyrics was in the offering, he has taken that song to a higher level. IMO, only two singers can carry off mediocre music and meaningless lyrics and make it much better. One is Rafi and the other is SPB. If you dispute this, I have the following observations. We all know how successful KK (all respects to this man though) was when we sang those senseless lyrics in the early 70s. Its difficult for me at least to think that Jesudas can infuse life in ordinary songs, Anil can tell us if he carried off this in Malayalam. Singers like Hemant Kumar, Manna Dey, Mukesh (from the past) did not have complete range, whereas Hariharan, Udit Narayan, Sonu Nigam, Kumar Sanu, (from the recent past) attempted and failed on carrying albums on their own shoulders. We also must keep in mind that a major chunk of spbs song came after 75’s which was never good for music wether its hindi, or telugu or kannada or tamil. SPB and Yesudas were probably the two reasons why I rate Ilayaraj’s effort in this period as better than LP, KA, RDB during the same period in the respective languages. Of course, Janki and Chitra are also other two reasons. This is where these 3 top notch mds suffered in hindi.
Thanks for reading this lengthy post.
Dhani Ram ji,
The song “Na jaane kaise” from Badaltey Rishtey was sung by Suman Kalyanpur, not Lata. Lata sang the beautiful duet “Mere sanson ko jo” in the same movie. I never figured out why Mahendra Kapoor was given that duet, when Rafi was the primary male singer in the movie. Kapoor, to me, tried his best but could not take the song to the level Rafi would have. And one of the greatest duets of all time just remained a good one.
Here is a good Rafi-Asha duet released 6 years after Rafi’s demise. The music was composed by Asha’s eldest son, Hemant Bhosle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agq4Aul8u34
1430 – Dhaniram
Rafi ji has many other great numbers in high pitches. The song which you mentioned is only an average song by rafi ji and in my view, it cannot be taken as a base for comparing with singer as great and accomplished as ghantasala ji.
Dhaniram ji, your post 1430
It is a great surprise to me, comparison with sri ghantasala is still going on here, (which i thought had reduced) and this time it is you who has brought out about comparison with ghantasala ji, the songs of rafi and not by any fan of ghantasala. Indeed astonishing for me particularly about ghantasala ji’s fame. With the kind permission of our moderator, who is a true music lover, I am posting this message here only as a reply to your above post and not with any other intention. I request that please reply frankly to my below post. Otherwise, I am sorry I will not respond to any of your further messages. (Pl. give straight answers to my views here)
That is fine. Now subaha na aayee song by rafi ji is good. In fact all songs by rafi ji are good. But your comment regarding high pitch range, I disagree with it. IMO baiju bawra numbers by rafi are in more high pitches and there are many other numbers of rafi ji which are in more high pitches and having wide ranges such as zindabad zindabad from mughal e azam etc. Further, your view about ghantasala ji’s range in high pitches is indeed debatable. Sri ghantasala has sung many songs and slokas/padymas in high pitches beyond imagination. I am providing a link to syamala dandakam by sri ghantasala here. This is a treat to any music lover. You will know how a sloka in sanskrit is perfectly rendered. All the octaves and wide ranges are present here. The rendering , high pitches etc. is beyond imagination by any singer including mohd. rafi ji to be frank. Straight views are solicited from you dhaniram ji on this rendering by sri ghantasala. This is sufficient to know what is music and what is ghantasala.
Sri MYK , MY dear friend – I solicit you great views on this complete rendering by sri ghantasala.
Sri Khan ji, if you are here somewhere, kindly throw your views specially on various ragas on which it is composed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3w5omAMF98 – 104k –
That is ghantasala.
Fine, dhaniram ji, as I had stated I never compare rafi and ghantasala ji, It is in reply to your posts I am responding in this manner. I am a admirer and lover of both these incomparable greats.
contd…
True music lovers will not argue and simply abstain themselves from posting here by reading such type of misleading posts dhaniram sahab, which i feel should not find a way in this great site of rafi sahab, which is establishing a sound platform for very great musical views by many music lovers here.
Mr. Dhaniram sahab – post 1430
My humble request is not to please mislead people by your wrong posts and zero music knowledge. O K here is the rafi sahab song which you mentioned subaha na aayee shaam na aaye
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRPrFQ8PhPA – 96k –
Let us discuss now purely from musical angle. ( I did not want to post this actually and land in unnecessary arguments in which I am least interested, but I did not want pure music lovers in this forum to be mislead by your false comments on musical points and I am forced to post this)
The moderator sahab to excuse me in this regard.
I am surprised at your comment – starting at lower octave and ending at the last pitch. The song purely starts at only the medium octave and ends at the medium note in final octave. You can verify this point from any musician. Moreover, rafi sahab’s o duniya ke rakhwale having shades of rag darbari kanad has much wider range and octaves as compared to the above song.
Coming to ghantasala sahab vis-a-vis your views, his song siva sankari is much much wider (than above rafi sahab songs) and surely covers all the octaves ; starting in the lowest octave and terminating at the highest ni note in final octave with complete perfection of the rag darbari kannad raga. There is not even a simple strain factor or stress in ghantasala sahabs range, he is at complete ease in all the octaves and high pitches as well as the beyond imagination raga presentation in the song. Moreover, as I mentioned earlier, ghantasala sahab creates hindusthani style without compromising his carnatic style (impossible for even trained singers) If you compare rafi’s above song subaha na aayee with siva sankari of ghantasala, i cannot stop but only laugh at your analysis. To be frank, without any offence/prejudice to anybody / any singer, as I had said earlier, which I again repeat – song like siva sankari by ghantasala sahab, technically as well as from other factors is incomparable and I have not heard till today any song like siva sankari by any singer. From a musical presentation/point of view ghantasala sahab has a far and definite edge than any other playback singer.
I am not a fan of any singer including ghantasala or anybody, being a musician myself (though I admire rafi sahab akin to many music lovers) but as a musician, on ghantasala sahab, I firmly stand with my above views.
Kindly do not write – human voice cannot reach such ranges as described by you for rafi sahab (false ranges by you). The great carnatic legend balamuralikrishan sahab’s voice has crossed octaves which are not present on musical instruments. Please try to update true music knowledge dhaniram sahab.
Ref Post 1424:
Dear P. Haldar,
You are too generous in your praise. When it comes to knowledge, I am a drop in the ocean compared to you.
Dilip Naik was one of the finest guitar players the industry has known. Besides his mastery over the instrument, he was also a fabulous arranger. He played the guitar in many famous songs, “Jaan pehchan ho” being one of them. Listen to the rocking guitar in “Aaja aaja main hoon pyar tera”, that’s Dilip Naik working magic again with the instrument. Another magician with the guitar was a fellow by the name of Anibal Castro. Remember the guitar in “Ajeeb dastan hai yeh”, that was Castro for you.
Ramesh Iyer and Bhanu Gupta were two other fantastic guitar players who were in RD’s camp. Ofcourse there was Bhupinder too who was excellent himself. We can’t forget Pyarelal’s brother Gorakh who was an outstanding guitar player too. Listen to him work magic in many of L-P’s songs. Tony Vaz was arguably the finest bass guitarist in the industry, RD made great use of his talent. Remember Charanjit Singh who played the transicord for S-J, an instrument they used quite prominently in their late 60’s to early 70’s songs, he was also a good guitar player.
Personally, I believe S-J and RDB had the finest orchestra’s in HFM, and a whole lot of credit should go to both their teams, that consisted of the finest musicians in the country. Why are S-J and RDB rhythms uncluttered and clear as compared to others ?. Because all three had masters of rhythm at the helm. Dattaram for S-J and Maruti Keer for RD.
Dear Anilji,singhji,mykji and prabhanjanji
i have just heard umpteenth time rafi’s:subaha na aayee sham na aayee jis din teiri yaad na aayee.As usual with great rafi songs,i am mesmerised by this song.it seems to me the acme of what we seek in music.music and human voice can’t go beyond this.Starting at almost base in the aalap,the song traverses all the regions of musical octaves till it ends at the final note of the treble.no other singer could have dared to handle this song.i have heard much much of ghantasala but have heard nothing of such scales retaining such melody at the highest pitch.all our singers appear to be pygmies compared to rafi.yes,lata is a strong contender.as a rafi aficianado,i may be a little biased toward rafi and can objectively say that lata is not less though it appears to me that rafi has a definite edge.i find lata’s : koi matwara aaya meire dware equally great.can you imagine this song in rafi’s voice? i believe even if rafi couldn’t have emulated lata in this song,he would have come very close.what about other male singers? for example kishore.
regarding kishore rafi comparative position in the 70s it was certainly advantage kishore.on farishta channel of radio worldspace there is a two hour slot for songs of seventies.it is kishore all the way who hardly figures in any other slot on farishta.but so far as quality is concerned,wherever rafi got a chance,he excelled kishore.there is a beautiful triad sung by lata,kishore and rafi(in that order): na jaane kyun badal jaate hain dunya ke yeh rishte.lata and rafi sing it very well with modulations and feeling but kishore is flat.in almost every duet that kishore has sung with lata,i find the former deficient.He is unable to cope with complexities of notes and rushes,huffs and puffs.if i am wrong,i am subject to correction.
contd… prabhanjan ji,
If I get links, I will try to post certain p suseela great numbers ( for instance – mira jala galada – telugu)
Anil Ji & dhani ram ji,
Second fiddle issue has achieved prominence. Fine, it has to be accepted that kishore did achieve recognition as a singer from 1970’s and in fact has a good attraction in his duet songs with rafi ji as well ( bane chahe dushman jamana hamara, yaadon ki barat etc.) But, as someone was mentioning, I too feel that the utilisation of rafi ji’s talent from the point of his voice range as well as from the point of music director’s capabilities, was not as effective & as great as was in earlier periods (50’s and 60’s ) where naushad, shankar jai kishan, o p nayyar, chitragupt, ravi etc. had provided light to hindi songs utilising rafi ji’s talent to the maximum extent. Perhaps, it is due to this factor, the second fiddle issue is being brought out.
1427 – Prabhanjan ji,
With due respects to your posts (for which I have appreciations), i wish to convey my few personal reservations. S Janaki is really a fine singer, in fact she started singing even without getting properly trained in music in initial stages. She has to her credit very fine renderings, the famous one being the telugu number nee leela padeda deva song. But, i somehow disagree with your point that she scores over male counterparts. It can be certainly said that p suseela, undoubtedly scores/dominates over all other male singers, (barring only ghantasala who cannot be anyway dominated whatsover) including rafi ji (in telugu songs – in duets with rafi ji). In my view, S janaki dominating over accomplished male singers require an impartial analysis. S janaki dominating balu is fine, as spb though having some attractive contributions to his credit, in my personal view he cannot be placed on par with many of the singers (Including female singers). There are some fine duets of p suseela and s janaki as well, wherein p suseela has certain edge over janaki as well. P suseela voice can be rated similar to the great lata mangeshkar. However, it can be definitely said in few hindi songs, rafi ji clearly dominates lata ji (for instance jo wada kiya woh nibhana padega from tajmahal – rafi ji has a certain edge)
@anil (1426):
Your observation regarding S.Janaki is bang on target. And its not just one genre of song, be it devotional, romantic, sad song, etc, she steals the thunder more often than not. Its surprising though that the heroines in south were not dominating as much as the ones whom Lata playbacked, and neither were the heroes as large in figure as the the ones Rafi playbacked. Though, the south heroes craze is way too higher than the artists in hindi films. Surely, Rajni fans would not tolerate Jankiamma stealing the show from Baluji in a Rajni introduction song :D. However, its Susheela and Lata who are mirrors of each other in the hindi and south films. Again, imo, Susheelaji does get dominated in duets by the male counterpart. Where Jankiamma scores over Susheelamma (this is how they are referred to by my most fav ever SPB) is that all-rounder skills.
Mykji:
I’m afraid we’ll have to agree to disagree (a bit) on ‘the second fiddle’ thing. From what I know (actually I don’t know much) about the ’70s, it was KK who sang (mostly) for the hotter/ younger hero and had the majority of lyrics in his duets/triads/quads with Rafisahab. And I’m not generalising things, with the LP numbers I think Rafisahab was given equal (or even higher) footing (‘Ek rastaa….’ or ‘bane chaahe dushman…’ for instance). But with RDB and some others it is felt that the ‘baadshah’ was made to play the supporting role. Anyway it’s not a big deal, as Mr.Rafian1 rightly mentions, these songs aren’t the kind which deserve a detailed, serious analysis.
All:
Dhaniram sir sure has a point regarding the tandem songs sung by both Rafisahab and Lataji. I’ve read many (often so-called) experts attributing Rafisahab’s apparent edge in these songs to the fact that the scale of these songs have been set more to Rafisahab’s natural pitch. Personally this theory is rather hollow, at best it only partly explains the phenomenon. South Indians are familiar with a similar phenomenon, over there, there is a female singer who goes by the name S.Janaki who routinely over-shadows her male counterparts (as great as Yesudas sir and Balu sir) in duets and tandem songs. The real reason (according to me) is what we call ‘gift’ or ‘talent’. This is also acknowledged by Yesudas sir (with his remark of God being partial to Rafisahab).
Prabhanjan – 1421
It is really difficult to compare voices of different genetics, similar is male and female, whether in filmy singing or classical singing and whether between filmy/classical greats vis-a-vis purely classical greats. M S Subbulakshmi’s classical contribution is great, but i do not think, the effect is same with reference to filmy playback singing. The subject under consideration has reference to filmy playback talents who have immortal private albums as well for instance, the bhagavad gita by ghantasala. However, this has nothing to do with MSS’s great contribution and the immense following she continues to have. I have heard rafiji’s devotional numbers as well, and of course, as you said the Bhagavad Gita of Ghantasala ji, the incomparable classic as you said, but in light of your observations, i opine that, not withstanding the male & female factor, the male singers stated above enjoy a special recognition, perhaps due to their edge in filmy playback singing as well and which accordingly applies as edge to their private albums as well.
Even if you consider the other classical talents viz., pandit bhimsen joshi or pandit jasraj or Bala murali krishna, the carnatic legend, i feel the same principle applies to their classical contributions as well vis-a-vis the great MSS.
mr. david pope, the guitarist for “jaan pehchan ho” was dilip naik, who was a regular in shankar-jaikishan’s orchestra. He later joined r. d. burman’s orchestra. On the drums was leslie godinho, who used to accompany mohd rafi regularly on concert tours.
There is a visitor to this site who goes by the name of myk; he is a living encyclopedia on musicians of the hindi film industry. If he is around, he’d be able to give you more details on some of these star musicians.
Friends
Most of Rafi Kishore duets are not as great as we expect because tose were mainly compromise songs created for multi star films of 70s.Take the case ‘janoo meri jaan’.Do you really think that this is a song worth 2 of the best in HFM can spend their valuable time in.Certainly not…There are few nice duets and definitly Rafi edged out all his co-singers.Just listen ‘Kya janoo kaise rangein badal jate hain'(Rafi,Kishore,Suman triplet from Badalte rishte) and check yourself.Few more examples for such multi singer songs with some meoldy in it are ‘Hum premi prem karna’,’Ek rasta do rahi’,’khuda hain khuda’,’tere jais bhai’ etc where one can really see Rafi sounds more melodious.A song which I feel Kishore matched Rafi for Sur to sur and Taal to taal is ‘Mere dildar ka bagpan'(Deedar e yaar)..Another beauty of song is ‘kya mousam hain'(Doosra admi) where all 3(Rafi,Lata & Kishore) did exellent job.Forget about time pass songs like ‘janu meri jaan’ or ‘yadom ke barat’ etc where Rafi may or may not have played second fiddle because nobody takes those kind of songs seriously
@Dhaniramji:
The first song you listed made me hyeterical, and I went and listened to Pyaasa again. All of us do remember “Jinhe naaz hai hind par”, “Ye mehalo ye takhton”, “hum aapki nigahaon” and that Johnny Walker song. What I remember Pyaasa ever for is those beautiful nazms that Rafiji rendered there.
Well, if “jinhe naaz hai hind par” song has little music, one should listen to “Gham is kadar bade”, “yeh haste huwe phool” and “Tang aa chuke hai”. The second song is what the movie starts with. One has to put more effort on the ears to hear the music. My love for Rafiji increased multi-folds after I listened to “Tang aa chuke hai”. The reason is there is virtually no music in this rendition. This song is not just about “Sadness”. This song depicts more about depression, helplessness, and deep agony. I would have picked this song as the one which if rendered by Lataji would be truly very very bad song.
I believe that only two singers can carry song without any music in the background. One is our own Rafisaab, and the other is SPB.
@Dhaniramji:
I have a little reservation on your comment regarding Rafisahab being able to sing all of Lataji’s solos. I do accept that among all the singers possibly ever existed, Rafiji is the only one who could have done what you have listed. This is only because he had a very sweet and melodious voice. On the other hand, I still do think that there are many songs which are very feminine in nature. For example, many of the songs in Dil Apna Preet Paraya, for example. This aspect, no matter how good a male singer, can’t be undermined.
I am not sure if this Rafi-Lata duet “Chalo dildar chalo” has been discussed earlier in the forum. If I am not wrong, Rafi sings only “Chalo dildar chalo, chand ke paar chalo”. Only seven words and nothing else. If one considers/rates the late entry of any singer and stealing the show as a kind of talent, I am at a loss of words to explain this. Here Rafiji sings only seven words and holds all the other words/tunes of Lataji.I am not sure if there is any other parallel song to this one. Both of them blow your heart away.
One reason I believe no male singer can replace a female in some set of songs. For example, Ghantasaalaji’s Bhagwad Geetha is very very classic. However, I would not dare say that all Rafis, Ghantasaalas, Yesudass can ever come close to M.S. Subbalakshi’s Sri Vishnushasranamas. This is only because MSS has immortalised it. Similarly, there is one song from the tamil film “mahanadi”, sung by a little child, a great artist indeed. The link is here http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=HKQmelK75K8 The Great MSS was so impressed with the rendition of the child that she called her to home, had her render it again for MSS. So, beauty was the rendition that MSS blessed her and gifted her a Tamburi (or Tanpura). Sorry, I don’t know recall that girls name.
Again, come to think of it. Why all children songs are rendered by female singers only, at least a majority of them, irrespective of its a boy or a girl depicting the song?
A good thing is that the converse does not hold at all. I mean, female singers come nowhere close to the male songs. I know that Usha Uthappa comes closest to sing male songs. But its clear as crystal in which voice we would like to hear “Mehbooba o mehbooba” [:D]
And finally regarding your list of songs answering my request. Unfortunately, I can’t make out the ragaas of the song. I am very very naive here. Kindly reconsider creating new blogs something on these lines.
1. Rafiji in Yaman Raaga. (a) Song …. from film X, (b) Song … from film Y, and so on.
What I am looking here is to the sea-difference which Rafiji creates with each raaga. Same raaga, different emotions, different renditions.
Thanks again.
Shri Dhaniram, Anil ji,
Mr. MYK is correct, Pl. refer my earlier comments. Rafi ji has never played any second fiddle to kishore ji. He sang in his own style and strength. Since, however in duets two singers are involved, it is a subjective thing who appears best to whom. Kishore too was a great singer, naturally when you hear two great singers in a duet, it is really difficult to appreciate who is better, as both are capable of singing the tune with effect. Same, is the case with lata – rafi duet. Rafi ji, however, it has to be accepted had a edge in melody factor vis-a-vis kishore as well as lata. His voice is unique like that. No second thought on this.
Your other views, hearing 20 plus songs of ghantasala ji every day, fine, I should take you as a musical lover spending so much time on hearing songs of playback singers.
Shri singh ji,
Great post by you singh ji. I appreciate your balanced views towards playback singers and other talents and request you to kindly maintain the momentum. You used to post songs of all interesting singers earlier viz., ghantasala, susheela, jesudas apart from our favourite rafiji as well as kishore. Such interesting and great numbers were really appreciated by all in this forum as true musical lovers. We are missing such songs in your posts from you singh ji. I sincerely hope no true music lover will have any objection for interesting musical numbers (of whatever singer or language) posted by you, as you did it earlier, as this is the unique site for true voice as well as true music.
Excellent post Shri Singh-ji.
There have been many great talents who have not received a lot of recognition everywhere, and in that sense luck plays a big role. However on the other hand, one can also not stop a true talent from getting fame and recognition everywhere, and this applies to many such as Rafi, Lata, S-J, Pancham, L-P, Ghantasala, Illayaraja, MS Viswanathan, SD Burman etc. True, some talents are only popular in their region or other regions, and not all over India and the world, whereas others are popular all over India and the world, including their respective regions and other regions too. But there is two sides to the coin when it comes to this issue (as I mentioned above).
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Dhaniram-ji, Cherian-ji,
You both have mentioned about Rafi-saab playing second-fiddle to Kishore in duets/triads/quads etc.. In my opinion I don’t think Rafi ever played second fiddle to anyone at anytime whether it be duets/triads/quads etc..
I prefer to look at it from another angle. Rafi was a master at making an entry or “late entry” into songs for impact or punch. Maybe the MD’s purposely made it that way so that the right effect or punch would come in the song, with Rafi’s entry, and remain throughout. This applies to songs where Kishore has started first. Songs between them (Rafi-Kishore) and others where Rafi has started, the punch and effect is present right from the beginning, and then which as I mentioned, also is present throughout the song. All this is due to, and possible because of, Rafi’s unmatched genius.
mr singh is among the sanest participants in this debate,therefore,it is hazardous to disagree with him and i don’t really disagree with him on any substantial point.in my moments of grace i also sometimes feel that comparisons are invidious and had better be avoided.but then we have got a faculty called reason.without a sense of discrimination we will not be able to tell good from bad.thus comparisons become inevitable.
there are many regional singing stars.in fact each language has its own icon and the speakers of that language consider him to be incomparable.all on this forum must have heard the name of assamese singer bhupen hazarika.he is made out to be one of the finest singers.whatever i have heard of him has never appealed to me.but in eastern india he is a singing superstar.assamese will consider it heretical to compare anybody with him.comparison becomes essential because as a listener you have to choose from among the available songs and singers.you can’t like them all.that sets up comparisons.
anilji,thanks for providing support for my observations.
meanwhile,for people who love to listen to music with a sense of refinement,i have a question to ask.I believe that rafi outclasses lata in duets and tandem songs.the other day someone on radio worldspace observed that rafi’s version of yad mein teri jag jag ke hum raat bhar karwatein badalte hain is superior to lata’s.i believe that rafi could have sung all of lata’s solos as well as she did but lata couldn’t have sung many of rafi’s at all.the following come to mind randomly:
1.jinhein naaz hai hind par voh kahaan hain
2.mujhe le chalo aaj phir us gali mein
3.zulf lehrai teri aur meri taqdeer bani
4.main yeh soch kar us ke dar se utha tha
5.chahe koi mujhe janglee kahe
6.lal pari maidan khari kya khoob lari kya khoob lari
7.jaag dile deewana rut jaagi vassal yar ki
what do you think? prabhanjanji,do you find reply to your post in the above listed songs?
meanwhile,felicitations to all rafi lovers on the great maestros’ birthday.
Dear Gurumurthiji, Dhani Ramji, Binuji, and Anil.
Its always a great pleasure to read your posts in this forum. Quality-wise this forum is really beautiful, and what with many of you also keeping absolute track of Rafiji’s career. I just also read the blog on Rafi-LP association. I single-out this blog as against others coz there is so much wealth of information on that blog about the “Raagas” of many of those songs. Its beautiful. I was also pleased to read the Naushad-Rafi song “Koi sagar dil ko behlata nahin” was based on kalawati raaga from carnatic music. That was really surprising. Now, the true Rafians will look for this kind of information from this forum, instead of wasting time on wether rdb preferred Rafi or not. THere are also so many meaningless posts on Rafi-vs-KK, Rafi-vs-Ghantasala, etc. Real Rafians need the above mentioned kind of information.
May I request Murthiji to prepare several blogs dedicated to each raaga, something like “Rafiji and Pahadi Raaga”. The whole exercise will help the naive reader to completely appreciate the greatness of Rafiji I am completely aware that this is one of the most daunting tasks. However, I am sure that it will be worth of all the effort. Who knows, it will be even useful for many many aspiring singers, or may be this foundation can bring out such information as a book.
Kindly reply. Thanks.
You are spot on, Dhaniram sir. The ’70s was pretty much made-for-Kishore, as far as song creation was concerned. It was indeed Rafisahab who had to adjust and adapt when it comes to duets/ triplets/ quartets involving KK and he also had to play second fiddle, especially “in those five years”. I feel Rafisahab’s slightly off-peak (not off-key) voice also didn’t help things in some of these duets, like ‘shakti amar hai…..’, ‘jaanu meri jaan…..’, or even ‘bane chahe dushman….,
Dear Shri MYK ji, – 1411
Thanks for your post. Indeed true to what all you say. Southern personalities also (some) are famous as well but by virtue of their association with hindi language, not as a result of their contribution and uniqueness/greatness in their own field. That was my feeling. In fact, I did not mean otherwise, rather the contribution right from Ashok kumar to late kapoors indeed is quite commendable and on which the hindi film industry pillars have been built infact and intact. Even if we go deep, hemamalini, vyjayanthimala etc. who are from the south have made huge success in bollywood only due to their role there. Yes, as you said the luck factor plays a major role to become well known or appreciated, even if one has very great talents.
Mr. Dhaniram,
Good and honest post from you. True, there are very great talents unknown, see my above para. My observations with singers was with reference to playback singing only that too filmy and nothing else in their own field. In this context, i had mentioned contribution of ghantasala ji in south vs. rafi ji (excluding linguistic and other barriers). I specifically meant that degree or percentage of individual contribution, talents and achievements/status by the concerned playbakc singer in their own field was the main factor for adopting as comparison. For instance, I can substantiate the same with the following example.
It is a fact, that even today rafi ji’s anniversaries or other things are celebrated in a wider range, even after his passing away in 1980. And the response, as we know is always commendable. The same is case with sri ghantasala in andhra. On dec. 14th, there was a programme at vijayawada on ghantasala for a mammoth 12 continous hours, wherein, at national level, many fans from india and abroad, have participated. For so many hours, his songs were sung by many of his fans and other talented artists. Media coverage also has been initiated on that. See, the recognition even after his passing away 35 years back. How many people enjoy such great fan following even after their passing away.
This is what I was meaning – comparison in the range of their contribution etc. – fame is a different factor as Shri MYK observes has link to luck. Strictly speaking, artists should not be compared and cannot be compared, because art is not for comparison. Moreover, as many people have repeated here (especially swamy and others) whatever great factors are recognised in rafi sahab, equivalent great factors by andhra fans are recognised in ghantasala ji (this is with reference to his own area and which is believed by many andhraites that no other personality can be compared with him in that field). In fact, in old days, he was referred specifically as Andhra rafi – again Shri MYK’s observations – Rafi ji is adopted as benchmark. Now do you understand, why this discussion came up all these days. In fact, there are many hardcore ghantasala fans (like our rafi fans) who do not listen anything against him and you cannot convince them also, whatever factors it be. This tremendous influence factor is the main reason for comparison. These hardcore fans believe that fine, if rafi ji is adept in ghazal, ghantasala is greater in padyams – and accordingly rafi cannot adopt to padyams and ghantasala to ghazal. That is all. That is it. Keeping aside, if you ask me my personal opinion, as I have already mentioned, I have equal feeling to the great ghantasala similar to the great rafi in terms of each of their unique talents, as again I have already said is due to my association with Andhra for so many years and I know what I say is in fact and the honest truth.
Regarding your other observations, leave playback singing, there might be many unhidden talents, surely greater than rafi ji or ghantasala or others, but final say as Shri MYK ji observes, it is ultimately, the great god’s grace and luck factor which makes one famous and grants recognition.
anilji and sudipji
i think i haven’t made myself clear so it is leading to some misunderstanding on the point of rafi kishore duets.mr vivek has even booed me for suggesting that rafi was made to play a second fiddle to kishore.it is a fact and not an observation or interpretation.first rafi is made to sing second invariably.in songs where there are three singers either all male or two male and one female,kishore invariably leads.there is a quartet also sung by rafi kishore mukesh and lata.again kishore sings first.the song is hum premi prem karna jaane.rafi acquits himself commendably.obviously kishore was the first choice of the mds.as anilji has rightly said rafi never allowed kishore to dominate him.but my point is that there was deliberate intention on the part of mds to compose tunes to suit kishore and force rafi to adjust himself.rafi through his sheer talent outdid kishore though the compositions didn’t give full leverage to rafi’s voice.rafi comes into his own in solos.Besides by and large music in the seventies had come down several scales in quality.take even lata’s songs of seventies and compare them to those of 50s and 60s.the 70’s stuff lacks the ethereal sublimity of the earlier decades and looks jaded and is loud and noisy.that is the case with all the singers of the era.rafi’s range and depth were not fully exploited in the 70s.
Ref: Post # 1402.
Wonderful observation on male duets. Yes, the one with the heavier voice holds an edge in a typoical all male duet. Infact Rafisahab held this edge over Mannada in their duets. However I personally don’t find Rafisahab getting over-powered/ out-shouted in his duets with KK (atleast in most of them). His melodious voice did hold its own in those songs.. Take for instance the Ram Balraam song ‘ek rastaa….’, Rafisahab’s melodious yet strong tone never gets submerged under the heavier tone of KK’s. Actually I did a bit of research/survey on Rafi sahab-KK duets…. I had asked several friends of mine (all Keralites, all musically talented, all not too fond of HFM) to listen to 7 duets of this team and posed the following querries:
#1. Who appeared stronger in tone?
#2. Who appeared more melodious?
#3. Whether it’s ever felt that Rafisahab is getting over-powered?
All of them gave pretty much the same set of answers, they responded that both held their own when it comes to the actual strength of tone (though KK scores in terms of heaviness in some of the songs), Rafisahab sounded more melodious and it cannot be said that KK over-powered him as such.
messers singh,xxx,sudip,akash,bijoor and vivek
your response to my views is quite well-considered,informative and balanced except in the case of Mr vivek who has taken umbrage at some of my very innocuous observations.I didn’t say what he says i said.if i had, brilliant men like sudip,singh,xxx and akash would have torn to shreds my comments.so i would appeal to vivek to apply his mind a little better this time.he will surely follow what i have tried to say if he tries hard enough to understand it.as for facts,ghntasala was introduced on this site months back.If one hears 20 songs a day,one can hear 1000 songs in 50 days.but i sometimes heard at the rate of 50 (approximately) per day to listen to a set of ten cds sent to me by my brother.besides,i heard hundreds of his songs on radio worldspace spandana channel which broadcasts scores of his songs everyday.so the number may exceed even one thousand.but i can’t say as i don’t know telugu,i don’t know which songs from my cds may be repeated on worldspace.it seems vivek is not a great listener of music and just catches snatches of it when others’ systems are on.
i find singh’s observations to be quite enlightening.being a punjabi settled in hyderabad he should know the best of both the hindustani and carnatic music.very few people understand music of both streams.i am certainly not one of them.therefore my remarks about the comparative virtues of rafi and ghantasala are only circumstantial.linguistic barrier is a very big barrier in appreciating the true quality of music.i know of no punjabi music maestro ever mentioning ghantasala.recently well-known punjabi singer shaukat ali was in india.he praised rafi sky high.ghantasala he barely knows.hans raj hans doesn’t bother.in many of my previous posts,i have asked the lovers of ghantasala to tell me how he compares with ustad amanat ali of pakistan.just hear a thumri by the ustad and you will find nothing in ghanatasala equivalent to that.but then the argument may be that thumri is not sung in telugu.again,many many of rafi’s songs are in ghazal style and some are qawwalis.how will these be compared?kuhu kuhu was composed by adi narayan rao,himself an andhra.if ghantasala acquits himself well,it should be no surprise.rafi too has sung it very well.so far as technical skills are concerned i don’t listen to film music primarily for such virtues.it is purely for melody.otherwise lata can’t singh any of begum akhtar’s or roshan ara begum’s compositions,nor abhi to main jawan hoon.in any case my views in this matter are tentative and indecisive.if mr singh listens to panjabi songs,i would request him to listen to pathana khan of pakistan.
as for whether comparisons should be made or not,we simply can’t do without them.there are songs that we like and there are those that we don’t .why? obviously we keep finding rational basis for our tastes.comparison is just a rational way of stating what we may be liking just by instinct.
Dear Shri Singh,
A great post by you. The Kapoor contribution (and the contribution by many others in hindi/urdu cinema) to indian cinema is very immense, I personally don’t think it has an equal. They set up the prestigious Prithvi Theatres, and created many successful plays right from the early days which are unmatched. Prithvi Theatres also groomed so many actors/actresses, musicians, personalities etc. that would go on and make successful careers for themselves. They set up one of the most glorious and respected banners in the history of cinema, RK Films. Prithvi Theatres and RK Films were camps for many struggling artists to reside and work on their careers. Prithviraj, Raj, Shammi, Shashi, Rishi, Randhir right up to the present day of Kapoors have contributed so much to cinema, that they deserve chapters on their own if a book on the history of cinema is made. There are many others as well including Dev Anand who have contributed immensely to Indian Cinema over the years and is still going strong. Guru Dutt accomplished so much in just 13 years that it beats out the work of many who spend their whole life in cinema. I also agree with you that Sivaji, NTR and other southern artists contributed a lot to their language, and their contribution was excellent as well. However to overlook the contribution of many hindi/urdu film personalities would be to ignore a huge contribution to Indian cinema.
True the southern industry is definitely great, but the hindi/urdu film industry stands out on its own and is unparalleled for the sheer amount of talent it had/has. Also, it has been and is the meeting point for talent across the country and around the world. In that case, it is a heera by itself, shining bright. Many in India and around the world in the past and present have always wanted to make a name for themselves in hindi/urdu cinema. There are those who are fortunate to have, and there are those who are not as fortunate. It depends on talent and luck.
I don’t think one needs to be born in the North to receive acceptance or praise. Many southern personalities have also been recognized for their great talent and contribution to cinema, the likes of which include Sivaji, NTR, Yesudas, Ilayaraaja, Janaki, MSV, SPB and so forth. As you know many southern personalities have also made a name for themselves in hindi/urdu cinema as well.
Moving on to another point, what I find interesting, is that most musicians, singers, lyricists, actors/actresses, personalities etc. in India consider Rafi-saab as the greatest singer of all time. From North, South, East, West (in India) and around the world, Rafi is recognized by a countless number of people and fans (whether learned in music or not) as the first and last word in singing. Also most comparisons between singers often involve Rafi.
Ofcourse there were other excellent talents as well, but there was one above all of them and that was ‘Saatwan Sur’. As Ilayaraaja put it best “Rafi is Rafi”.
on dec.24th its mohd rafi’s 84th birth anniversary. many events, music concerts are taking place – around the world. Please let us know more about such events, people behind it for info purposes.
binu nair, cell : 9833 250 701 or e.mail : binus2000@hotmail.com
Dhaniram ji,
Even though I have been in Andhra for a long time, I too am not well versed with telugu language, I am not expert in it, though I can speak and understand it well. Moreover, I had seen many telugu films from my childhood, particularly NTR & ANR, (the evergreen heroes of telugu field for a period of more than 40 years – sounds great no) and these heroes say only one thing – they are not even half or would have been what they are, but for only the great ghantasala. Do you know, all people will agree with me that perhaps there are no other heroes in any language (even in hindi) who could match the contribution and skills of NTR and ANR in telugu and similarly MGR and Sivaji Ganesan in tamil. Further, the all time great savitri and S V ranga Rao, from south – these are all time great actors whose contribution to indian cinefield is unmatched and even kapoors or bacchans or kumars from bollywood are no match for these great actors from the south. The southern film industry is indeed unmatched. However, it is a different thing as the main article by swaminathan states – to be glorified or earn glory you have to be born above the vindhyas like rafi ji. Otherwise, whatever greatness or skill one may possess, it is like a dim light (40 candle bulb) only.
What do you say Shri MYK Sir on my above views.
Mr. Dhani ram – 1399
contd., i forgot to dig in one more point – you have heard 1000’s of songs of ghantasala after he was introduced here – is it a believable comment. And is it possible for a person like you or me who are not well versed with telugu language to hear thousands of numbers within a short span of time. This itself appears that you are not clear in your intentions and views. You need not hear 1000’s only few presented here are fine to make discussions. Pl. don’t take offense, but my request is to present honest views.
1399 – Dhaniram
Rafi was adjusted to kishore numbers – sounds absurd, where was need for rafi to be adjusted to kishore. What do you mean by second fiddle of rafi ji to kishore numbers. I think you are not clear in conveying straightly. Do you mean kishore was ahead than rafi. Rafi ji is rafi ji only and it is not possible to compare anybody with him.
Next, your observation about p suseela vs. lata, I do not think anybody has surpassed lata mangeshkar, the main article itself says that lata mangeshkar is beyond comparison by almost all the artists. And your observation on ghantasala again – off the track as the main article is silent only on him (reasons not known) though it mentions all other southern singers adopting great rafi as benchmark and moreover the beyond imagination lata mangeshkar (as i read in this forum) herself declaring ghantasala as incomparable. Like others, to me also, ghantasala indeed did sound quite excellent, to be clear, even greater than yesudas of whom of I have heard his several numbers.
OK pl. keep the aforesaid matter aside, could you clarify as to how could you state rafi ji had become inferior to kishore in their duet numbers. I do not think it is acceptable.
Mr. MYK ji,
I agree with you, rafi ji was definitely great but at the same time i feel that kishore kumar did influence the film industry from 70 which continued till he passed away. Personally, my view is that in terms of soft melody rafij i was definitely superior and in terms of attraction, kishore was good. Both appeared fine to me when I hear rafi-kishore duets.
Mr. Dhaniram ji,
I appreciate your frank personal views. I have heard many songs of yesudas ( I am having collections of him) – but ghantasala, i could get here only in this forum – to me personally, ghantasala definitely appeared to have a very great melodious voice and was certainly ahead of yesudas, technicallly as well. I am also not aware of telugu language, but I heard few songs of ghantasala from post 1248 by Mr. Pardus here and subsequently analysis by mr. Bose and Khan in this forum – I concur with views of both of them with regard to ghantasala. (However, I respect your personal choice as well)
Mr. Singh and Dhaniram ji,
Coming to p suseela, as I could know from some of my telugu friends, had good range and melody in the 60s and 70’s and P suseela’s voice pales in the 50’s as well as after 70’s. The 60’s and 70’s songs of p suseela are quite interesting. But lata , i feel has a wider range than p suseela (though she has great contribution) – I have heard some similar songs of p suseela and lata mangeshkar, and I found lata versions to be more melodious and better. However, the case was not same to rafi vs. ghantasala similar numbers (for instance suvarna sundari – kuhu kuhu number) – I could not decide who was great, rather to me both appeared great in their own ways when individually heard (though the telugu version is technically ahead than the hindi one in terms of raga presentation and accordingly may appear superior) ( I had compared the suvarna sundari – both hindi and telugu at least 10 times)
Anyhow, keeping aside the comparisons, I feel this rafi forum has provided a wide range of musical debates and it is quite interesting to learn great things here not only about the all time legend rafi ji, but other great playback singers from India, regional as well. Great site of rafi ji indeed.
As Mr. MYK observes, the influence of rafi ji is tremendous as can be seen from this site.
Comparison & criticism of any nature especially when it is connected with the Pure Art of Music should at all levels should be condemned & avoided by one & all of us who are indeed the true admirers & lovers of Music
Mohammed Rafi undoubtedly was, is and shall continue to remain & rein the Greatest Ever in the annals of the History and shall continue to rule the hearts & souls of all his fans & admirers throughout the Universe, mainly since a pious & pure soul of his caliber is the most beautiful Gift of the Almighty on earth and eventually such souls can truly be termed to be born only once in many centuries to come
The music industry by & large has given us several greats in the form of K L Saigal, Mukesh, Talat Mahmood, Hemant Kumar, Kishore Kumar, Manna Dey, Mahendra Kapoor, the Mangeshkar sisters, Geeta Dutt and all other contemporary male & female singers who have over the years proved their class, versatility & quality. The overall range & voice structure of all these greats definitely varied but their immense hard work & contribution to the world of music can never be forgotten
For me the greatest Rafi still lives in our thoughts, expressions and there may never ever had been a occasion or moment where we have felt we are left alone
His soothing melody – Sukh Ke Sab Saathi Dukh Me Na Koyee – from Gopi OR — Mana Tarpat Hari Darshan Ko Aaj – from Baiju Bawra wakes all of us from our sleep every morning and his classic rendition – Main Gaoon Tum Sojawo – from Brahmchari again puts us to sleep.
Such is the Magnitude of the Greatest Rafi Saab, who truly said – Tum Mujhe Yoon Bhula Na Paaoge !!!
Dhaniram – 1399 post
Wonderful presentation of your personal views – Small request kindly write in your language ( to Unknow – not in Mr. unknow’s language even for him)
One way you are fine – p susheela has very great songs even greater than lata , again difficult to compare both.
As for your comments about the great legend rafi, he was certainly ahead of all others viz., talat, mahendra, kishore etc. even having edge over lata – there should not be any doubt about it.
Though I am a punjabi, I have been in Hyderabad since past 40 years and I am well aware what is Ghantasala in telugu and his contributions & his voice. As many said, I say only one line about him, He is exactly to telugu cine field (all ways), the replicate of rafi ji of hindi. He is the greatest master and the amar gayaka (The same status is for rafi ji too in hindi – all know it) That is all. And as many have said, he as well as yesudas are technically ahead of all other playback singers in India. Further, as many said ghantasala’s voice was certainly greater and melodious than k j y (these views are held by southern musicians), and ghantasala had a certain and definite edge over all other hindi singers, And I never compare or have ever compared these two greats, (G & R)and i fully agree with you that linguistic and stream factor also deters from comparing.
Regarding your observations, and purely for discussion between two of us (with the permission of moderator), I wish to metion few lines here for your views.
As for ghantasala, as some knowledgeable participants have said, you have to hear him from 54-66, where his voice and melody was at its peak – after 66 also there are hundreds of songs, but though they are superior and attractive as compared to others, they are certainly not that as great as his earlier melodious renderings from 54-66, mainly due to this deteriorating health condition, specially respiratory problems. (if you hear songs after 1966, you might not feel that great unless as you said you know fully about telugu) Ghantasala’s voice was certainly very melodious with velvet touch (it is indeed referrred to as the most majestic voice – see wikepedia on ghantasala)and I request you to pl. hear the following songs in telugu and post your views on melody factor. (The following are copied from post 697 my Mr. vasu ji in this forum) – if you hear these songs, you will certainly feel what is great melody. (all these songs are from 55- 1965.) you will experience the same pleasant feeling when you hear rafi ji’s melodious numbers from kohinoor, tajmahal, kashmir ki kali etc. I am not able to get link to these songs for posting here.
1. cheli kaadu ninne rammani piluva
2. jagame marinadi madhuramuga e vela
3. andala ranive neeventa janave
4. raave na cheliya
5. monna ninnu chusanu ninna manasu kalipanu
6. jaya sundara nanda baala (this is a rare song and exceptional one)
7. neela gagana ghana syama
8. priye charusile
9. penu chikataye lokam
10. Na hrudayamulo nidurinche cheli
and many others.
Immediately, I can give you link for following song posted my Mr. Pardus in post 1248 in this forum and greatly appreciated by Mr. Bose as great melody number. (Pl. post your views after hearing this)
Jayasimha (1955) – http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/bUI_jBQEqt.As1NMvHdW/
Leave telugu, pl. hear the Bhagavad gita by ghantasala in sanskrit and post your views. This is his greatest unparalled contribution to music. (Mystery is – it has become so famous and even ghantasala has not heard his own rendering – he passed away without hearing it – great his god’s will) He has kept the gita a secret and the song was released to public only after he passed away.
And as you are aware I am a true music lover and never have desisted from sharing true melody numbers (language without being a bar) with all my friends here viz., sharing musical happiness with all.
As lata and susheela factor has come for discussion, I want to share some great numbers of p susheela as well for true music lovers. Hope if the future permits so. Rafi ji had sung some duets with p susheela also in telugu.
Dhani Ram Ji,
Excellent post! you are absolutely write, not many MDs showed a high level of confidence on rafi in early 50s, however lata managed to carve a separate niche for her, major reason behind this was Anil Biswas and C Ramchandra were gaga over lata and composing their heart out for her and newcomers like Roshan, Vinod etc started following their footsteps by employing more of lata and talat. all credit goes to naushad sahab, who did a great work with rafi sahab against all odds, rafi-naushad combo of early 50’s was phenomenal.
as for rafi-lata, i still believe they were equally good and had their own style to render slow songs, it’s hard for me to tell which one was better in this genre, talat was also supreme in this genre(with his own unique style), repertoire of all three is very vast in this genre and i still have to cover a lot of other songs, but i am aware of most of their songs in this genre.
take these 3 gems for instance, and tell me who is better
Kahan tak hum uthaye gam, movie-Arzoo(1950), Lata Ji:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/69466d5c-a498-42a9-827c-cfc8ea573c5b/Lata-Kahan-Tak-Hum-Uthaye-Gham
Tere kooche mein armano ki dunia, Dillagi(1949), Rafi Sahab:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbSWm5mBalI
Mohabbat tark ki maine, Doraha(1952), Talat sahab:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/9ca707d1-9d3d-4eaa-a754-de9022ce4b66/Talat-Mahmood—Do-Raha—Mohabbat-Turk-Ki-Maine
i rate all three(rafi,talat and Lata) equally well in this genre, however , for me, what proves rafi’s superiority over others is the high pitch songs, fast songs, quawallis,fun loving songs etc, rafi sahab had no peers in the following type of songs:
1.Jinhe naaz hai hind par wo kahan hain
2.O dunia ke rakhwale
3.ye ishq ishq hai, ishq ishq
4.dil ka bhavar kare pukar
5.yun to humne lakh hasin dekeh hain, tumsa nahi dekha
6.jawaniyan ye mast mast bin piye
7.jiya o jiya kuch bol do
8.dhire dhire chal chand gagan mein(Rafi outshining lata here)
9.Pukarta chala hun main & Ek hasin sham ko dil mera kho gaya(songs with high modulation, rafi was best)
10.all fun loving duets and solos with op nayyar and sd burman.
Regarding Dhani Ram’s post #1399:
——————————————
When you have two males singing duets, more often than not, the songs/lyrics bear depiction of chivalry and valor (typical “Maardangi” songs in Hindi). This unduly favors one with the heavier voice i.e. Kishore. You rarely have a soft, romantic duet between two males and whenever such nuances showed up, Rafi prevailed. For example, the antara of “Baney chahe dushman”.
My second point… Very often you will see that Rafi-Kishore duets were not symmetrical, i.e. the singers did not sing the similar portions of the antara. Rafi had to sing the high pitch portion, most likely because Kishore would not scale to that range (at least would not sound similar). For example, in “Aye yaar teri yaari” (Waqt ka deewar), Rafi had to start both high pitch antaras though the sequence was a perfectly symmetrical one. Similarly, in “Baney Chahe Dushman” the tune was different for the different parts. In “Mere dildaar ka pakhpan” (a song where I think Kishore outclassed Rafi), the last duel (yugalbandi style portion) had Rafi switching between the low and high scales, Kishore stuck to the mid range.
Mr. MYK ji, – thanks, you have responded to my message. Happy to see you posting again.