True Voice – Mohd Rafi
The following article was brought to my notice when Sharad posted it on MAS. The article has been trimmed down a bit keeping afloat Rafi details. However, anyone interested can go visit the source at http://tfmpage.com/forum/4980.6302.04.57.19.html
I am Swaminatha Iyer and I am 78 years old. I hail from Tiruchi and I am a part of music associations in Tiruchi, M’as as well as in West Bengal and Maharashtra.
I think it is wrong to condemn music or artists on either side of Vindhyas. Our Indian music is one of the few which has not been cleaned off by the western music though there has always been a influence. It speaks a lot of the richness of our music. Sometime back director of MTV had said that MTV westernized the music wherever it went but in India , MTV had to be Indianized for it to be accepted. A lot of this credit goes to the Indian film music.
I have been fortunate to have close personal association with Rafi, Sirkali, TMS, Dr. BMK, Kishore, SPB & KJY, PS, Mannadey and the one and only Lata Mangeshkar.
Comparisons are bound to come, but almost every artist or I have met considers Lata to be beyond comparison. Her talents are beyond anyone’s reach. Even Sirkazi used to talk of her singing like a die-hard fan as do countless others.
Now coming to the Rafi-SPB discussion. It might be difficult to convince an South Indian to believe Rafi is the better and at the same time Rafi crowd will never believe any other male singer comes anywhere nearer. There is one more mobile crowd, which is well conversant with Hindi and some south Indian language. Majority of them tilt to either Rafi or Kishore.
During one of my stays in M’as I had stayed with SPB. While talking of true voices he said, I don’t feel like half a singer when listening to Rafi. True voice is not a tech term but many in circle use it. Perfect example would be lata, but to understand consider our own PS who within her range is superb. People who do not have such true voices can never do justice to original. They generally underplay many parts of the song or fake it with bass/superficial singing. True voices make people like Sirkazi, Nusrat Fateh Ali khan, Lata… Inimitable. However since Sirkazi and Nusrat did not have the filmy voices their “real” following is limited to their local arena.
In addition to the true voice if the singer has a very good voice then in “most” cases he/she can better songs of others. It is this combination which makes Rafi stand out among the other male singers. There are many here who seem to have mistaken notions on a good bass and also on high pitch.
Bryan Adams does not require a monster bass in “Summer of 69” to sound real manly. It is the punch which gives that feel and that is decided only by the comfort level in most ranges (that is by what your throat can support). This you CAN never disguise with bass. Since people have talked about lack of manly voice viz. a viz. Rafi it was necessary to bring this point out. I have had the fortune of listening to most singers in studio and some times without a mike, practicing with MD’s.When Lata or Rafi do, the level is so high that people hesitate to even hum. It felt silly to sing in their presence (and it feels silly when someone says his voice isn’t manly).
In RD’s tribute when SPB sang “Aaja Aaja mein hoon” or “Chaand mera dil” it sounded only sweet and lacked punch if you compare with Rafi’s original.
Yesu once told me God has been partial to Rafi. He said “god gift term anavasyamaa romba common aa ippo use aardu”.. but idu Rafi kee thaan 100% porundu”. This person could sing “as intricately as a lady without sounding thin”, “cover any mood”, “versatility odey perfect example Rafi”. Yesu said most important is the comfort level over ranges which makes you feel God has been partial to Rafi. (But Of course in Rafi’s early career (1950’s) the voice was relatively feeble).
To people exposed to Rafi’s talent, these or any amount of praise can only seem less. I just wish he was alive and you people could get a live chance to hear him. Probably you can get hold of the DD album for the Geet Gaata Chal series where the first four episodes were dedicated to Rafi. Rafi is on camera singing “O Duniya Ke Rakwaaley” and many other songs. If you see and hear the last part you will realize why SPB said “impossible”. I think particularly those people who have talked about scales w.r.t Rafi should see this album. Its a known fact in industry that Rafi ruled high pitch and there is no male singer better in switching notes so easily. There are artists who can go beyond but then they sound strained or they don’t have pleasant voices when they venture into those territories.
Many singers of today are his compulsive followers. But they end up inheriting only part of his quality. Md. Aziz ended up with a sad voice. Mahendra Kapoor with a thick nasal voice. Anwar with a nasal voice. Sonu Nigam with a feminine voice. Rafi neither had a soft voice nor a heavy (bass) voice he had a good voice. Importantly did not strain at high notes, and voice if at all only became better at higher notes. If you see him singing it will remind you of Janaki. However diff the song is or the note is he will be smiling and singing. It is unthinkable that he cannot sing something.
There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo” song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect. There are lot of other songs of SPB where this great singer has played with songs in total control. You will find most south Indian singers who have had a good exposure say that it is beneficial to learn Hindustani as it gives better breath control and improves expression.
Rafi was not only able to glide over a song, the important thing was that he could express each word/sound when singing. It is one thing to hold your breath, start and reach a crescendo (high note), as like in “Shankara”, “Anbey (Yennai kaan villaye)” it is different ballgame if you have to do it from low notes or suddenly switch notes. With practice the former can be done, latter requires a special gift. Rafi had a natural ability to do the latter. In “Tum joh mil gaye ho” there is such a transition in the “karwaan mil gaya” part. I have never seen anyone do justice to most of his songs in my life time. In “parda hai parda” quawaali the similar part is “kar doon to, Akbar mera naam”. In fact most of his songs will have these specialty as it was his natural ability to sing freely in a wide range at the same time giving that extra expression.
Whereas SPB takes us to heavens with “Idu oru pon maali”,”Ilaya nila” “bisiladarenu”(kannada), when he sings Rafi’s song it lacks the punch or expression, though it has the bass. But at least most agree that SPB does some justice to original, whereas most others murder the original.
One trivial point I would like to add is that singing in Hindi is harder. There are more “JHA”,”CHA”,”HA”,”THA”, “KHA”,”JA”,”FA”. These take away the breath faster. The more expressive you are the more air you are using up. Just singing from Nabhi will not help, your throat also needs to do a lot, for singing in Hindi, Bengali etc. SPB makes you fall in love with his south Indian songs but same cannot be said about his Hindi songs. If you just glide through words having these sounds, you will never be expressive. Doing this as well as reaching high notes is not easy. Rafi had this gift and that’s why it is difficult to imagine anyone else in his shoes. Song “Chalkaaye jaam” has so much expression that it is unthinkable how anyone can sing it. When Rafi switches to a high note with “Mitwaa” in the song “Chaahunga mein tughey” you cannot replicate it with bass. Most others will sound as if they are shouting in such cases. That man’s throat had the ability to freely sing at such levels.
Versatility is not just the ability to sing in various styles, more important is how good you are singing in those styles. You have lot of Ghazal singers today but when Rafi sings a Ghazal you will sit up and take notice. You don’t have to be part of the Ghazal listeners crowd. This is one important aspect. Whatever style you sing you should be able to pull the common man to listen and not just a particular crowd. Pick “parda hai parda” or any qawalli and it will stand tall among other qawalli’s.
Variety is amazing :
songs of Guru Dutt’s Khagaz key phool or songs like abhi naa jao chod key, Aaja teri yaad aayi, Aaj kal mein dhal gaya, Aaj kal terey merey pyaar, Aasmaan sey aaya farishta, Dil ney pyaar kiya hai, Deewana mujh saa nahi, Din dhal jaaye, Duniya paagal hai, Jaane walon jara, Dil joh na kaha saka, Dil key jharokon mein, Dil kaa bhavar, Chalkey teri aakkhon sey, Kar chaley hum fida, khilona jaan kar tum, Woh jab yaad aay, Woh hain jara khafa, Vaadian mera daaman, Pathar key sanam, Chaand mera dil, Main zindagi kaa saath, Mainey poocha chaand sey, sun sun jaalima, Koi jab raah na paay, hum to chaley pardes, badan pey sitaarey, laal chadi maidaan, Tum jo mil gaye, O meri shaahey, Sau baar janam lengey, Tum mujhey yoon bhula, Tumney mujhey dekha, Terey merey sapney, Tumny pukaara hum chaley aay
Name a situation/mood and Rafi’s song will be there on the top.
Swami
Correcting a typo
To Satyansh:
Here are the links to Rafi’s yodelling. I must admit Kishore is the master of the art, but Rafi does it too. It is almost kiddish and naive to expect that Rafi or for that matter any singer of repute, cannot do this. I have at least 3 college class mates who could do it.
http://www.esnips.com/doc/8d4b719a-0982-4884-b7bd-6d930e15017a/Hindi—Reporter-Raju—O-Chale-O-Kaho
http://www.esnips.com/doc/f87b5f25-1a15-4e68-a2d9-f36875c91a6a/Hindi
There are more that I cannot trace online. And some of them were recorded even before KK came into limelight.
Statement 1:
““…You had implied that your “revered†connections can do a better job, and that’s the problem…Revered does not make them equal to Rafi…â€
First of all, I did not imply that at all.â€â€”Satyansh
Statement 2:
“I know people very close to me with that range, greater voice modulations and great voice texture. Not all singers go on to sing for Hindi films, in fact in many families it was not considered good to sing in films in those daysâ€â€“Satyansh
Now, can you reconcile #1 and #2 and tell me what you implied?
It is your problem that you seek literary “truism†in the expression-â€superhumanâ€. Maybe I should dig up every occurrence of “superhuman†on the web and associate them with Spiderman or Batman..
Surajit Boseji,
In some of the posts you have been trying to propagate that Rafi became top singer by 55-56 and it appears that you consider Talat to be at the top before that period. I find that observation factually incorrect.Rafi ascended to the top around the time of Baiju Bawra itself a good 3/4 years earlier. After Saigal’s demise till 1952, Talat ,Mukesh and Rafi were the main players among then emerging singers. Even before Baiju Bawra ,Rafi had biggies like Aan ,Deedar,Diliagi,Dulari,Dastan,Barsaat,Mela,Andaz et at to his credit. From 1952 to 1955 Talat was still a contender but Rafi had taken a long lead. Beyond 55, Talat Sahib was gradually phasing out. Thus argument that Rafi came to top in 1955-56 is simply misplaced. However ,I find fifties music very varied and enriching .Despite Rafi being lead male playback singer of the decade there are also significant contributions of Talat,Mukesh,Hemant,Manna and Kishore without which the music wouldn’t have been so rich.
Finally about Tujhe Kya Sunao by Rafi is simply a masterpiece.I like Sajjad-Talat’s original version quite a lot because of the melody but when it comes to voice quality ,I find Rafi-Madan Mohan’s version closer to my heart and soul.It is just a futile and a subjective discussion to say one version is better than the other.The bottomline is both the master’s (Rafi and Talat) were able to sing in a particular genre equally well. Why composers by and large flocked Rafi is because he was the most versatile.
Thanks
Naveen
friends, I had an overdose of “falsetto” and “vibrato” during the last few days, so went to a local bar to have a sip of amaretto. I seriously doubt that talat bhai or rafi saab ever heard these words but I made it a point to consult the Webster’s dictionary and found that these two words, along with amaretto, share the same etymology: Italian. Armed with this knowledge, I don’t feel I am at such a musical handicap anymore. You see, in our times, most of my fellow music lovers were from places like jhumri talaiya, latehar, bareily and other such small places, and they didn’t have the kind of sophistication as today’s kids do. Anyway, now that I understand what “vibrato” means, let me make the following statement.
What googly was to Chandrasekhar, vibrato was to Talat.
If you understand the real meaning of this sentence, you will stop talking about Talat’s vibrato. It’s too bad that this site is getting infected with people who know so little about hfm and its great artists!
talat was a great singer.he has given us many memorable songs.he has his niche in hindi film music.and it is true that what he could sing at his best,nobody else could.and this can be said of two other greats of hindi film music:mukesh and manna de.while acknowledging all this,we must not overlook the fact that rafi was far ahead of them.he was the greatest by virtue of the quality of his voice and range.some bloggers have misunderstood the meaning of range in relation to rafi.rafi has both trans-octave and intra-octave range which is denied to most other singers.and variation in pitch doesn’t result in flagging.melody,the essential quality of hindi film music,is preserved by rafi in all scales and pitches just as by lata.
having said that,if rafi could sing all the songs sung by all the singers,no other singer would be required.there are some songs that suited other voices better.there is a beautiful rafi-talat duet:gham ki andheri raat mein dil ko na beqraar kar,subah zaroor aayegi,subah ka intezaar kar.rafi sings the more effervescent part in his solid voice whereas talat sings the more dolorous,lingering antara.there is this haqeeqat quartet:ho ke majhboor mujhe us ne bulaya hoga.rafi leads leaving talat,manna and bhupendra far behind.
the theme song of saranga is beautifully rendered by mukesh.it is one of the finest renderings of raag yaman in films.rafi sings the refrain several times in the film but, i am afraid, not as effectively as mukesh.
so we don’t grudge other singers what they have done at their best.we say only that rafi was the greatest of the greats and was far,far ahead of them.just as lata is in the female category.again,the same logic applies here.lata couldn’t have sung all the songs of alll the female singers.i can’t imagine her singing mubarak begum’s: hum haale dil sunaayein ge suniye ki na suniye.lata’s greatest asset is the sweetness of her voice which is most manifest in the middle octave.her songs like:kadar jaane na,lo aayee milan ki raat suhani raat,mori chham chham baaje re paayalia,unko yeh shikayat hai ki hum kuchh naheen kehate.the songs of lata which are popular today don’t appeal to me at all.and the ones in which she may have shown technical skill and virtuosity may be otherwise lacking in sweetness and melody,may just be too shrill.despite this lata will never have an equal in the female category.
why does manna de speak so highly of rafi sahib?manna de,the doyen of classical singers in films,says that he used to listen in wonder to the magic that only rafi could weave.manna participated in all kinds of duets and choruses with rafi including the best film qawwali:yeh ishq ishq hai ishq ishq.i am reminded of a duet in classical mode:tu hai meira prem devata.both technically and vocally,rafi excels.
tujhe kya sunaon main dil rubah teire saamne meira haal hai is my all time favourite.it is one of rafi’s immortal contributions to music.in comparison yeh hawa yeh raat is only mildly pleasant.rafi’s version is in a fresh,youthful voice whereas talat’s is in oldish,jaded and squeezed out voice.the former is much more difficult to sing whereas the latter is simple and straighforward.talat’s own chand meira badlon mein kho gaya is much better.
those who criticise rafi sahib on this forum should be prepared to accept criticism of other singers’ limitations.i have already conceded talat’s greatness.but even in his early phase his voice sounded oldish and would get squeezed everywhere.a majority of ghantsala’s songs are sung in a monotonous singsong voice that loses its timbre every now and then.it is for reasons such as these that mukesh,talat,manna,ghantsala–all worthy singers in their right–couldn’t even reach halfway the heights that rafi scaled.
anil cherianji has raised the question of how rafi was perceived in his own times.i was a school and college student in rafi’s peak period.it was rafi and rafi all the way,mind you,not lata.rafi was synonymous with singing.singer was = rafi.
Singh ji,
I sent you an email at the email address in your Comment No. 1528. I think if you click my name, it would take you to my website. I look forward to learning about more songs from you.
sudip_dat:
“…First of all, do not include “http†in the website and you will be able to publish…”
Thanks, will give that a shot. I am not sure if that is the issue since I have always done that and I did not have a problem on other occassions.
“…If adaptation to an actor is the criterion…”
See the difference between what I said and what you have presented and/or understood it as. I said “…it is one of the criteria for judging any playback singer. Remember, they are after all playback singers. Of course, if you are talking about classical singers, it is a different story…”. The key being I said “ONE OF THE” criteria, and you said it is “THE” criterion. Also, note that I have stated numerous times that it is one of the criteria for playback singers only, since they are after all playback singers. Also, I have mentioned numerous other criteria stating that “…I intend to keep it subjective and not give the factors below a points/percent based weightage…”. You go on to use your “THE” criterion concept and say strange things. But that is not what I said, is it? Read it again and judge for yourself. You also talk about “persona” (what I call style) and then finally accept that Rafi’s voice did not match a couple of actor’s voices. That is what I am saying too. I did not say how important it is or what kind-off weightage I would give to something like this. I merely stated the same fact you eventually did.
“…And you are just spewing crap when you say Manna could handle more genres than Rafi…”
Where did I say that he could handle more genres? I said “…Manna Dey is much better than Rafi at adapting his style to different genres…”. Again conveniently twisting words, aren’t you? Judging by your language here, I would say you are the one spewing crap. Let’s be respectful, anyone can talk in a bad language. What’s the point though? Don’t think that I don’t like Rafi. I am just not fixated with any one singer. Now coming to the topic of Rafi/Manna Dey, hear these songs for yourself and let me know what you think.
“Lapak Jhapak Tu” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja3XCe4e2gc
“Ek Chatur Naar” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HwrMGpFaik
“Aayo Kahan Se Ghanshyam” (I couldn’t find a full version online probably since it is shown in bits and pieces in the movie. I have a full live audio version that is just awesome.) – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XstaiTvlMlY
Let me know what songs Rafi has in this genre of this calibre. Note that I am not implying that he does not have any. Merely waiting to see what you think compares to these songs and genre. Please answer my questions instead of posting counter-questions. 🙂
Here is a qawwalee for you to enjoy. Rafi is in there too. “Na To Karvaan Ki Talash Hai” – Forget the awesome alaap, listen to how beautifully he says “”Dil Jism Ishq Hai Aur Jaan Ishq Hai, Imaan Ki Jo Poocho To Imaan Ishq Hai” (from memory) – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BU209EkL5E
A few more songs illustrating Manna Dey’s genius. Copy/pasting, hopefully the links are still valid. Enjoy –
“Kaun Aaya Mere Mann Ke Dware” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoSa9UxDaFM
“Ketaki Gulab Juhi” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJAdhSnblRo
“Laaga Chunari Mein Daag” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Efh7sCK6njA
“Poocho Na Kaise” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLYZGWzeHmw
“Sur Na Saje” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSQOUZAVdCc
“Bhai Bhanjana Vandana Sun Hamari” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrZvhmF85X8
“Tu Pyaar Ka Saagar Hai” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pr2U5AcgPHo
“Kasme Waade Pyaar Wafaa” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMk2v_mPkTs
“Zindagi Kaisi Hai Paheli” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge-j-Dmexv4
“Yeh Raat Bheegi Bheegi” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vabgXc7TC-Q
“Aaja Sanam Madhur Chandni” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEt3_K9nu2s
“Jahan Main Jaati Hoon” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO50xLNMP_I
“Aao Twist Karen” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lokpohoCyF8
“Yaari Hai Imaan Mera” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkpPfqzXYkA
“Aye Meri Zohra Jabeen” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlXGVH2KMZ8
“Aye Mere Pyaare Watan” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgi3bqp2EyE
“Chalat Musafir Moh Liya Re” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNTDLN05L_o
“…But fact remains that Rafi did employ falsetto tweaks in several songs (and yodelling too)…”
I never said that he didn’t. Come on now :). This is just funny. Read what I said in my previous post. I only mentioned his limitations in the head voice viz-a-viz Kishore to which you came up with that. Following your acknowledgement, I think this is a closed topic though. Basically, I agree with what Surajit said below. Could you share all the songs you know where Rafi has yodelled?
“…You had implied that your “revered†connections can do a better job, and that’s the problem…Revered does not make them equal to Rafi…”
First of all, I did not imply that at all. I don’t know if you are trying to be sarcastic, but it wouldn’t help. It doesn’t bother me at all. Anyone can be sarcastic and/or talk in a foul language, but I just don’t want to stoop to that level. Judging from your posts, I know you don’t either. Just read what I and other people have to say with an open mind. We are all free to have and express our opinions respectfully.
This is what I had said in Comment No. 1479 to which you had reacted in that manner. – “…don’t forget that there are different styles of singing and these superhuman ranges that are being mentioned on this forum are not really superhuman. Rafi was an exceptional singer, but what he sang was very human. Many people in this world might have Rafi’s range. I know people very close to me with that range, greater voice modulations and great voice texture. Not all singers go on to sing for Hindi films, in fact in many families it was not considered good to sing in films in those days. Rafi’s range, sweetness in his voice, etc. are a great combination, but his adaptations are not superhuman and believe me, I have heard many people first hand who can do these in their own voice as long it’s their natural range. It’s not very common to have this natural range, but it is not superhuman by any means…”. So, what did I really say – I mentioned Rafi’s range is not superhuman as people here claim (any reasonable person would agree). I say that I know people with Rafi’s range, greater voice modulation and great voice texture. Note that I did not say better texture – greater voice modulations – of course yes. I go on to say Rafi had a great combination going for him and it’s not very common to have his natural range. Even if I did imply someone can do a better job (which I didn’t), on what basis can you say rude things or even challenge it without knowing who I am talking about? I am pointing out the fallacies in your superhuman argument. You be the judge of these and your statements. One person I am talking about could have a Pandit in front of his name and be in a different league altogether. I would not talk about them here and shouldn’t have to take names, that is beyond the point. I am perplexed that you are busy dismissing someone/refuting something without knowing what they are/it is.
“…Even if he did n’t, I think playback recording of 1960 and stage singing of 2008 are comparable in terms of acoustic technologies…”
I don’t know if you understand data loss as a result of recording on a camcorder. Regardless, I have no doubts Rafi’s calibre would be evident irrespective of comparisons with these versions. Finally, hear this version of Sonu’s “O Duniya Ke Rakhwale” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4mmXZWpTQs. I look forward to hearing your opinion. Did he hit the right notes?
dhaniram ji,
Why do you drag A R Rehman here. Why you are blaming him now. Praising one singer, does it mean, putting other singer at rest. What a interpretation dhaniram ji. My request to you is if you want genuine answers to your doubts, personally go to Sri A R Rehman and get your doubts clarified. You will be a more enlightened person after you meet him. A R Rehman was not even born when rafi and ghantasala were at their peak, this is for your information. Since A R Rehman, good music director as he is, was associated with s p b, chitra and k j y of his times, he had specifically referred to them. Leave A R Rehman, why do you not refer to comments by established greats such as spb, p suseela, who were very much associated with ghantasala very closely, To specify even the great rafi ji knew very well about him, as you yourself indicate in one of your messages. Your views and my views or others views are open to subjective interpretation, but the views of above greats have great relevance.
Mr.Myk,
I second your views on Rafi and Talat , Talat was definitely supreme in soft songs and soft gazals but Rafi too had his own mukaam in Soft songs:
By the way, how about these soft songs, could talat had sung the following soft numbers in a way Rafi did?
a)Pukarta chala hun main, gali gali bahar ki
b)Ek Haseen sham ko dil mera kho gaya
c)Din dhal jaye haye Raat na jaye
It’s hard to pigeon hole Rafi in any particular genre, he was the only one who could sing in so many genres with an equal ease.
I would say,forget everything and just take those 300+ songs of the combo: Rafi-Shankar-Jaikishan, there is much “perfection” and so much “variety” in this combo itself that it’s hard to achieve for any other singer what Rafi achieved with the duo Shankar-Jaikishan. What say?
Sudip,
Forgot to mention one thing. While it is a matter of taste where Talat’s quivering voice is concerned, the vocal effects that he brought in are far from inept. They are very difficult to pull off.
Within his narrow genre, Talat was a very capable singer and reigned supreme. And that was why he was very successful as long as that style of singing was in vogue. Like I said, he was the top singer before Rafi took over.
Sudip,
regarding 1529:
Fair enough. Like I said, I know many folks on RMIM who do not like Talat’s singing style or his vocal effects. But my point is that Rafi or anyone else could not sing in that style or bring in that same effect. And Biswas liked the effects that Talat put into his songs (whether they were mandatory or necessary is irrelevant here). And that was his reason to use Talat for his songs, and not Rafi. And I fail to see why he is at fault here. After all, Biswas is choosing a singer who can bring in a particular vocal effect that he likes, and wants, in the song (setting aside the question whether it is mandatory in the song itself).
Biswas was very fond of Talat’s singing style and that is well known. When Talat went for his first trial with Biswas, he had two quite popular private songs/ghazals at his back: “Tasveer teri dil mera bahela na sakegi” (music: Kamaldas Gupta) and “Ro ro beeta jeevan saara”. After Biswas heard Talat sing for the audition of “Ae dil mujhe aisi jagah le chal”, he asked him to come for the recording. When Talat showed up for the recording, he sang in an entirely different manner, suppressing the quiver in his voice. Biswas was upset and asked him the reason for doing that. Talat replied that many people had criticized that aspect of his singing. Biswas convinced him to keep that tremor. And, thankfully, Talat listened to him.
Also, is there any particular source for Biswas’ quote about Rafi ? Please do not mention Raju Bharatan as the source. Anybody except him. Some of the people I know had personally met Biswas and he never said anything of the sort. He said he liked what Talat brought to his songs. And it’s hard to find fault with that.
Ref. Post 1536:
Dear Singh-ji,
Thanks for your write-up, a wonderful read as usual.
I am in agreement with your views, age does take a toll on every singer’s voice, and that included Rafi, and my point about “never deteriorated the way other voices did”, was similar to your comment that “rafi ji could maintain his voice better to a larger extent than other singers for a longer period”.
Rafi’s voice did age (just like every other singer), but he maintained it very well, that it sounded as great as always. There is a different charm, and aura about his voice in different periods. For example, I find Rafi’s voice as wonderful in Laila Majnu (1976) as I do in Baiju Bawra (1952), and so forth. I don’t feel the same way about others except Lata (as you brought up), and maybe to an extent Asha. I agree with your views on Ghantasala and the other singers you mentioned.
You mentioned “Kitna pyaara waada”, this is in my view one of RD’s all-time best duets (composed in the folk genre), as well as one of the greatest Rafi-Lata duets. Both Rafi and Lata are brilliant here. I feel the melody and appeal is fantastic, another example of the RD-Rafi magic.
Caravan was one of RD’s finest musical scores, the musical feast he served up in just that one album was matched by very few albums, in his repertoire.
Pl. dhaniram ji, No body is debating here now between ghantasala and rafi, pl. do not try to bring it again. This request I had made earlier also to you.
Dhaniram ji, I continue,
Pl. be balanced. Khan sahib and surajit bose sahib are fine hindusthani musicians and their views need to be respected, as no body can question their credibility. Individual choices always differ, but that does not mean one should accept whatever others say. Without hurting anybody and specifically all rafiji lovers here, as you said ghantasala is no where near rafi, does such comments speak of a true and balanced rafi fan. Suppose, out of ignorance I say that, I understand and mean from your above comment that upon your view whether ghantasala is no where near rafi ; can I draw conclusion if he is no where near means ; is he far above him or what. How will you feel now. Pl. try to understand feelings of everybody. And pl. post messages depending upon the individuals. Sorry, but for ur unsolicited comments with regard to me, I had to reply like this.
Dhaniram ji in post 1535
When did I question you. And on ghantasala, this truly great legend, as I have heard him, I have never made any comments. Well, I am a fine rafi lover more than you for your kind knowledge. That does not mean I should not like greats like ghantasala. Similarly, I have not made any comments against anybody. It is you who are posting hurting messages. I request you to pl. correct yourself, dhaniram ji. If by mistake, I had made any adverse comments, kindly let me know along with my post, I shall stand corrected.
MYK Ji,
Good post sir, Indeed it is the magic voice of bollywood playback singing which sent hearts of individuals to different plane. However, I am not able to fully agree over the statement – never deteriorated the way other voices did. In fact the appeal and melody which appears in ye chand sa roshan chehra is lacking, rather to put it in a correct way diminishing, in kitna pyara wada, whatever may be to subjective views. Perhaps may be due to age factor which none can deny. Even other singers too had similar issues. In my view, Balamuralikrishna and SPB, currently in their late 70’s and early 60’s respectively, have still strength in their voices similar to their early days. Kishore kumar too same, the effect in kora kagaz tha ye man mera is lacking in mere umar ke now jawano from karz in early 80’s. But none of the telugu songs of rafi ji has got that punch or effect his hindi songs display, perhaps due to command on language factor is the hindrance. Similarly, K J yesudas voice has also changed dramatically in later stages, though strong currently, the earlier inspiration is lacking. Same again the magnificient melody of Ghantasala from 55-66 started diminishing subsequently, whatever may be the reason through health problems, though he continued to maintain that magical sheen due to his sheer experience in the field despite reduction in his earlier amazing skills. Again if you hear p suseela from 90’s there is a sea change in her voice from earlier 60’s, you cannot believe the voice of 90’s -complete lacking of punch and strength. However, I concur with the point that, the only factor is that rafi ji could maintain his voice better to a larger extent than other singers for a longer period. I think, to some extent, even lata ji fell in this category.
This debate has generated a lot of heat of late.Biases have been forcefully asserted.can we shed biases and look at the facts objectively?each one has personal preferences and nobody should impose his tastes on others.
Nevertheless i believe that this forum is dedicated to rafi for rafi sahib’s admirers to pay tribute to the man whom they regard to have been the greatest singer of all time.do rafi-baiters expect us to denigrate our idol in his own shrine?
Yes,rafi has had his detractors.anil biswas,rd,bhappi.but why do we forget that
an overwhelming majority at the top has always rooted for rafi.
can we agree on certain facts:a very vast majority of knowers and lovers of music believe that 50’s and 60’s were the golden age of hindi film music.do we all agree?during this period,in the male category,rafi was given an overwhelming majority of songs.Do we agree?what does that prove,objectively speaking?the only rival of rafi in that period was lata with an equal number of songs.
Lata and rafi are the two brightest stars of hindi film music.they are giants before whom all others are pigmies.
For khan sahib,singh sahib and akashji,
well,you have every right to question my knowledge of music.what do you think of a r rahman’s knowledge of music?he has said that rafi is supreme,followed by lata,yesudas,chitra and spb.he doesn’t mention ghantasala.well,nobody can stop you from siging paens to ghantasala.but you allow others also to state their preferences.and i repeat that in quality of voice,range and melody,ghantasala is nowhere near rafi.
TO DEAR SURJIT & SUDIP,
GOOD TO READ YOUR WORTHLESS & USELESS COMMENTS AS USUAL,
PLEASTNESSE ADVISE WHETHER HAVE YOU HEARD OR SEEN A SONG UNDER KHAYYAM SAAB`S MUSIC FOR `LAALA ROOKH`WHERE THE BADSHAH GIVES PLAYBACK FOR TALAT SAAB- `HAI KALI KALI KE LAB ` PAR BADSHAH KI GREATNESS
I would also like to add a little to one of P. Haldar’s recent posts:
It doesn’t matter if some individuals don’t recognize the greatness of Rafi, it won’t change the fact that Rafi was the greatest singer of all time. His fan-following is legendary, and he is the shining star of Indian Cinema. One can see that he is the greatest just from his talent, skills, countless (amazing) songs, rich repertoire etc. Add to that, the countless number of music personalities that have showered their highest praise on Rafi-saab. There are also a countless number of other aspects that make Rafi the best.
So my advice to others would be don’t waste your time on pointless discussions with non-knowledgeable individuals who can’t see past a certain bias. The only way to have a good discussion is with those who are objective in their views. In that case, knowledge also helps, and if one has musical knowledge (without a bias), there is no way they will ever put anyone ahead of Rafi. Ofcourse one who has knowledge (with a bias) will definitely express different views, but even they know that Rafi is the best, but don’t want to admit it for their own reasons. But again, in that case it doesn’t matter, because the bottom line is, as Ilayaraaja so nicely put it, “Rafi is Rafi”.
Would like to add, that Rafi’s voice was so great and versatile that it contained the “punch” regardless of how he sang, whether it was in a soft way or a powerful way, or any other way. The outstanding tonal quality, sweetness, melody, charm, range, magic etc. of his voice was something no other singer had or will have in the future.
Rafi was all other singers rolled into one. It’s really a waste of time comparing anyone to him.
I disagree on the “softness” aspect vis a vis Rafi. Talat had a soft voice by nature, so its pointless to discuss that aspect when comparing Talat and Rafi. Rafi had such a versatile voice, that he could go from soft to powerful with ease. There are countless examples of Rafi’s excellent “soft” voice at play.
I’ll just mention one, what RDB referred to as his “prized” composition from Chandan Ka Palna, “Tumhein dekha hai maine”. The power-packed rendition included both the soft and soulful touch combined with strong tonal quality, something which no other singer could replicate. One has to listen to this gem to notice Rafi’s outstanding skills.
Kishore had a strong baritone, but when he went soft, the renditon was not as powerful as when he sang normally. KK also at many times sang in falsetto mode when trying to sing in a soft manner.
Talat by default sounded good in the ‘soft’ genre as his voice was naturally like that. However both he and Kishore were limited to certain genres, their voices were not as versatile as Rafi’s, and their repertoire and songs are proof of that.
I would say Rafi’s voice was excellent at all times. There is a different aura, charm, and appeal in Rafi’s voice in different time periods. His voice never deteriorated the way other voices did.
Sudip, keep up the excellent analysis, its a treat to read.
TO Satyansh:
————–
First of all, do not include “http” in the website and you will be able to publish..
Here are the statements verbatim from your website:
“…I do not think adaptation to an actor should be a criterion on judging any singer, whether Rafi or Kishore…”
In my subjective opinion this is not true at all. Like I said earlier, it is one of the criteria for judging any playback singer. Remember, they are after all playback singers. Of course, if you are talking about classical singers, it is a different story. I am sure you’d understand and must have heard many music directors views on this subject since they are quoted extensively here. Adaptation (texture and style) is one of the factors for any playback singer – they are the voice of an actor on screen on most occasions. One of the biggest factors Rafi-fixated fans use against Manna Dey (who might be better than Rafi in almost all aspects) is that his voice did not suit that of actors. Since according to you, adaptation to an actor is not important, and obviously Manna Dey is much better than Rafi at adapting his style to different genres, on what ground do Rafi-fans rate Rafi higher than Manna Dey? Your talk on genetics seemed irrelevant to me, so I’m going to let that be.
————————-
My response: If adaptation to an actor is the criterion, Sudesh Bhosle is the best of them all. And Mukesh’s “Kabhi kabhi” is a no-song..Period. No arguments.
To me adaptation to a situation is more important.
Rafi will never sound like Amitabh and Kishore will never sound like Anil Dhawan or Akshyay Kumar. What they can do though is punch enough “persona” into the song so that it fits the personality. Take Rafi’s “Athra baras ki” from Suhaag. Does it match Amitabh’s voice? NO. I will be the first one to admit it.
Does it match Amitabh’s “persona”. Absolutely YES. A resounding YES.. I will argue that Rafi’s voice did not match Dharmendra’s too. But the reason Rafi-Dharmendra is such a successful pair is the “persona” injected into the songs.
Manna suffered from the lack of this. And you are just spewing crap when you say Manna could handle more genres than Rafi. Namely???? (BTW, I am as big a fan of Manna’s bengali songs as Rafi’s Hindi songs)
———————————————-
“Comparing two singers is merely subjective, but implying that there are no better examples across the whole spectrum of Hindi film music seems too strong a statement.”
-True.. I must admit I made some exaggeration to drive home a point. But fact remains that Rafi did employ falsetto tweaks in several songs (and yodelling too).
—————————————–
“…Possibly a myth till one gets behind the microphone…One of the people I spoke about is revered even on this site by most………Sonu Nigam’s and Mehboob Chohan’s are probably on someone’s camcorder while Rafi’s is the playback recording.”
Revered? Sure.. So are Sonu Nigam and Mehboob Chohan and Mohd Aziz. Revered does not make them equal to Rafi. Shamshad begum is “revered”, but is no Lata. You had implied that your “revered” connections can do a better job, and that’s the problem. I do not have a problem with the “reverence”, convey my humblest pranams to them.
1.First of all, I think Sonu lip sync’ed in the Birmingham symphony program. 2. Even if he did n’t, I think playback recording of 1960 and stage singing of 2008 are comparable in terms of acoustic technologies.
3.Even if they are not, my point is not about quality. Sonu struggles at high pitch, while Mehboob loses his voice behind the orchestra at low pitch ( attenuation of volume that Surajit had discussed earlier).
4. If you still have problems, I will send you links for absolutely apples to apples comparison i.e, 55-year-old Rafi live with others live.
Cheers.
Surajit, satyansh:
I think my point is being missed. There is nothing inherent in Biswas’s composition that mandates the use of the vibrato, except for some Ghazals like ‘Ek Main hoon ek meri bekasi’ . That Biswas likes it is a case of personal preference. There are inherent features of RD’s composition that necessitates usage of Kishore’s voice (like Chala Jata hoon in Mere Jeevean Sathi). And personal preference cannot be used to make absolute statements like “Rafi is no singer”. Naushad was way more pragmatic in distributing work among Talat and Rafi. Talat was heavenly in Baradari while Rafi was unparalleled in Mela and Dulari.
I was never a big fan a of Talat’s vibratory vocal usage, not because they did not have an enjoyable effect, but more because I felt they were unnecessary and inapt in lot of cases. In fact, I did enjoy his “Chal Ud ja re panchi” because Talat’s style does create an ethereal effect. But I am ready to take that in a cover version. In a filmy version, Rafi’s high pitched rendition has a dramatic effect and correctly depicts the underlying pangs of the situation.
Yesterday I was listening to “Yeh Duniya nahin jaagir kisika” (Chowkidar). Though the song has a generic philosophical lyric, I do not think you can use the Rafi version outside a movie. The amount of feeling that Rafi injected into this song was out of the world. Rafi and Rafi alone could have rendered that filmy version picturized on a non-entity like Om Prakash and yet create something that’s profoundly touching yet popular.
Satyansh ji, – 1527
I have not been able to get your message in reply to my post 1482. Could you pl. post it again. Kindly give your website and mail address.
Kindly refer to post 1494 by sri ragahavan ji, for your interest and post your views pl.
My mail is sangeet_987@rediffmail.com
Surajit,
Good analyses with your post no.1525. It was neutral and highlighted the qualities of both singers.
“…If you will recall that was one aspect of Rafi that I pointed out as not being as strong as the rest of his singing abilities – using the head voice…”
I agree with you and had pointed out the same thing a few days back too. Talat’s natural vibrato and soft voice suited many of Biswas’s compositions. You highlight another excellent point that is the loss of power in Talat’s voice at higher scales where Rafi shines. Rafi’s ability to maintain the sweetness of the song even at higher scales was exemplary. What are your thoughts on Kishore’s head voice and the way he goes back and forth between the chest and head voice? To me, his head voice is somehow much more powerful (yet smooth and delicate) than others I have heard. As another note, Kishore has a pronounced break as well.
sudip_dat, singh ji – I did try to reply to your posts 1481 and 1482, but I kept getting some error message and therefore I posted that post on my website instead.
Surajit:
I am by and large in agreement with your observations on the two pair of songs that you sent (in fact, I had similar opinions about those songs even before you sent them). I was never a huge fan of Talat’s vibrato, so maybe it is easier for me to accept Rafi in place of Talat in the soft Biswas compositions. But the contrary should not have been represented as “Rafi is no singer” by Biswas. If you follow the singers of the 40s right from KL Saigal to Talat, you’ll see head voice was indeed dominant. In fact, the famous story on Rafi’s ascendancy bears that signature. When the microphone broke down in the Saigal concert, only Rafi (or a person of similar style) could entertain the crowd. Saigal had given up. This was spotted and utilized by several music directors between 1948 and 1955 which entirely transformed Hindi film music.
But I would not necessarily extrapolate that to say Rafi had a weak head voice. Rafi was an MD’s delight because he would sing exactly as told to. The downside was that the end product was not immune to the MD’s limitations in directing. Tuje kya sunayoon may have suffered for whatever reason. One of the finest applications of the head voice is in the antara of Suhani Raat Dhal Chuki starting from “Tadap rahe hai hum yahan” onwards. Rafi somehow lost that towards the end of this career and hence you see the volume coming down in the 1980 live version of the same song.
On a different topic, someone (most likely Manish) mentioned that Rafi’s voice was still the best till 1972. I just dug up this Kishore-Rafi duet from 1971.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb99N_sXNOY
This is a peppy number that should have suited Kishore. But Rafi is clearly more fluent, more melodious and smoother along the transitions. Almost flawless execution compared to Kishore’s ragged rendition.
Rafi’s voice between 1972-1976 suffered from lack of confidence. I did read about in in a Raju Bhartan article, but I too have reasons to believe the the fluency was affected by lack of confidence. Kishore’s voice had the confidence of someone for whom everything he touched turned into gold. Rafi in spite of producing one or two numbers like ‘Tum jo mil gaye ho’, was affected by the fact that things were not really working out for him.
Hi Sudip,
Good to hear from you. While I agree that Rafi would’ve probably done a good job with some of the songs, there are characteristics of Talat’s voice that are very different from (you could say – exactly opposite to) Rafi’s voice. So, the effect that Talat brought into those songs would have been missing. And vice versa.
Let me explain why. Talat’s voice has a distinct, what is called in voice culture, vibrato (a periodic variation in the pitch) that is completely absent from most singers, most of all, Rafi. Further, Talat predominantly uses his head-voice or head resonance technique that is closer to falsetto (used a lot more in western classical and operatic singing).
Rafi predominantly uses the chest resonance technique, leading to an open-throated voice. Such a voice is naturally powerful and can carry to high-scales with relative ease, and is very apt for dramatic singing. That is why Talat cannot sing the higher scales very well because his voice loses it’s power, while Rafi cannot bring in the same softness and the subtle vibrations or dynamics that Talat infuses into his songs. When Rafi is made to sing in Talat’s mould, he has to conciously bring down his volume (which is a natural by-product of singing from the chest and abdomen – that’s what adds power and carrying ability to the voice) but he cannot inject the vibrato or slight tremor in his voice because unlike Talat, Rafi does not use his head-voice as much. If you will recall that was one aspect of Rafi that I pointed out as not being as strong as the rest of his singing abilities – using the head voice.
Similarly, if Talat is made to sing in Rafi’s mould, his voice cracks and breaks down because he cannot infuse it with the power and volume that naturally comes with singing from the chest and abdomen.
I have sent you through email 2 pairs of songs – 2 songs by Talat and 2 by Rafi. Each pair of songs have the same tune and raga. And very conveniently, in the first pair, the first song was originally sung by Talat (composed by Sajjad Hussain) – “Yeh hawa yeh raat yeh chandni” and was later resung by Rafi (using the same tune but slightly different beat – composed by Madan Mohan) – “Tujhe Kya Sunaon main dilruba”. You can clearly see that Rafi was a trifle uncomfortable (esp. if you hear the Talat version first, you will see it right away).
When you hear the first song by Talat, pay attention to how his voice vibrates at the closing of these words in the mukhda “chaaandnii”, “nisaaar”, “aarzooo”, “bahaaar”.
When Rafi sings the same song, you can see that he doesn’t achieve a similar effect at the corresponding words – “dilruba”, “haal hai” etc. And the same difference carries through the rest of the song.
Similarly, Talat sang a cover version of the famous Rafi song from the movie “Bhabhi” – “Chal ud ja re panchhi”. And it is very clear that he struggles whenever he has to reach the higher scale that Rafi so effortlessly scales.
That was the reason why Biswas felt that Rafi could not duplicate Talat’s singing, and Biswas’ compositions were designed to bring out that aspect of Talat’s voice. In fact, Biswas particularly told Talat to use the vibrato in his voice to good effect.
Taking your example of “Ae dil mujhe aisi jagah le chal”, Rafi cannot duplicate what Talat did. When you mainly use your head voice, the primary characteristic is that you increase the pitch without increasing the volume (see how Talat sings “leee chal”). IMO, Rafi cannot do that simply because his voice culture and singing technique is different. Rafi would have to achieve that high pitch by simultaneously increasing the volume, which brings in a different effect. Now, whether that is better or worse depends on the listener concerned. Probably you might like that but Biswas probably would prefer to have Talat’s version.
Post 1516: mohdrafi.com ko mubarak kaho, is liye ke tumko apne “bakhwas” chaapne ke anumati diya hai.
Paramjit, ab yeh batao, guruji (kshore Kumar) ne kithne patriotic gaane gaaye hai, i mean desh prem ke gaane….
aur yeh bhi bataana, kithne classical ya semiclassical gaane gaaye hai. in sab ko jarra list kard de.
tehriya, hosh me aaoo aur bhago nahi, yahan se , jawab de kar ke jaayee-a-ga.
binu nair
Naushand was at top without using KK and he is one of the best ever born in music world and same OPN was at top without using great singer Lata Ji but there same Nashand said mohd Rafi is 50% of my music and OPN said if there was no Mohd rafi there was no OPN!!!!!!!!???????????the best time of Indian music was 1960’s?!!!!Naushand never said that KK is not a good singer..Madan Mohan said about mohd rafi I should not he pay when mohd rafi sing for me!!!!!!!!!?
I don’t want to answer KK fans because they know the answer as mohd Rafi fan I think Anil Biswas ji was a great MD also KK is good singer
Why Anil Biswas was untruthful
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Surajit et al. First of all, I actively try not to transform my preferences into biases that can ruin any meaningful discussion. I have listened to every single song you recommended and always maintained a high opinion of Kishore’s baritone and Mukesh’s bass.
I also have a very high regard for Anil Biswas as a musician. As you mentioned in some other posts he transformed the orchestration and effects of Hindi film song (though Rahman is de-constructing some of those, not to my liking). And precisely out of this respect I am stating that he was being ‘untruthful’ instead of calling him a ‘liar’. WHY?
When Bappi says good things about “Kishore mama” and claims he is way above the rest, I buy it because his genre of songs were suited to Kishore. When RD spelt out his preference I can understand that because to him ‘Kishore understood his mood’. When Naushad dismisses Kishore and adored Rafi, I can still understand that because his reasoning was similar to that of RD. When OPN talks ill about Mukesh I can still conceive that because Mukesh’s bass laden voice was not suitable for OP’s fast paced histrioinics.
But when Anil babu puts Rafi down there is something wrong. Every single song of Anil has a soft bass that is right off Rafi’s core strength. This is a classic case of unfounded bias where preferences rule judgment..Take AE DIL MUJHE AISI JAGAH LE CHAL. Rafi would not only have sung it but taken it to greater heights by doing better justice to the higher pitch areas in the antara. Had Biswas really shed his bias, he would possibly have done more justice to himself more than to anyone else.
With no disrespect for the great Talat, Madan Mohan actually pitted Rafi against the ghazal king Talat in Jahan ara. While Talat was extraordinary in Jahan ara, Rafi was magic. The rest is history.
Ref Post 1509:
P. Haldar,
In response to your query (about Brahmachari), my guess is that for the accordion it was either Enoch Daniels or Dheeraj Kumar. Both used to play the accordion for SJ in the later days. Earlier it used to be Goody Servai. For example, in the Title song of Love In Tokyo, the accordion was played by Enoch Daniels.
As for the piano, it could be either (as you mentioned) Lucila, Sunny, or Biju Carvalo, Robert Corea. I am told that for Dil ke jharoke mein, Shankar himself played the piano. Jaikishan styled this composition in a Shankar way.
SJ had an amazing group of musicians, the very best in the industry.
Binu Nair ji,
I agree 100% with Biswas ji’s comments – rafi is not a singer at all.
He is a gaana gandharva, above the term “singer” which is applicable only to budding persons in playback singing field. So the term singer cannot be applied to rafi ji. I think all rafi fans should unanimously agree with biswas ji in this regard. I am really thankful to biswas ji for telling this truth.
This is the full song from asli naqli – tujhe jeevan ki dor se, how a singer (very sorry , the word is not applicable here) it is a gaana gandharva who displays his skill here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI8zDP3Tt5w – 92k
Dear All (especially ‘also-Rafi’ fans):
Rafi-fans are some of the most ardents ones one would ever find. They may not be as loud or lewd as the KK-fans but even fierier. Personally speaking, I’m not as passionate as many of the members here but instead of applauding myself for being more ‘secular’ I actually consider myself an inferior music lover than the more fortunate ones here who’s gone deeper into the ocean named Rafisahab and as a result comprehended (and therefore worships) him more. To analyse, compare or criticise Rafisahab’s works are okay with guys like me but these are very sensitive (and rightfully so) territories for the senior gentlemen here who’s actually seen and felt the ‘life and times’ of Rafisahab- his ascend to the peak which no one else before (or after) him had scaled, the effort of some commercially minded (is it the right tag?) folks to pull him down from this peak and the ‘victory of virtue’ at the end.
ref post 1510:
dear akash ji,
your point is well taken. different people have different tastes and some of my closest friends are kishore fans and I have nothing against them. But some of the visitors to this site are trying to create mischief by deliberately quoting an md who had nothing to do with rafi saab. Honestly, who cares about what he said when thousands of songs bear testimony to rafi’s greatness? You know what kishore said when he heard the remark? He said, “It’s a stupid comment.” This stupid comment he definitely made; all he said later was he didn’t mean it this way or that way.
You know why we get mad from time to time. Because the common target has always been rafi. How he couldn’t sing this note or the other, how he couldn’t match lata here or there, how asha surpassed him in such and such song, how salil and rd had problems with him, …. From these comments, one would think that we are talking about a singer with major musical deficiencies, when the truth is that more than 35 years after his creative best, millions adore him, including the likes of spb, yesudas, sonu, udit, srikanta acharya, suresh wadkar, anup jalota…. Someone said it best: to learn about playback singing, all you have to do is to listen to rafi saab.
Hi Surajit:
Yeah, u’ve guessed correctly.. and any guesses who’s actually paying me for the job?
By the way I’m glad to see your personal interest in me (U always had it, remember?)
Surajit Bhai..
Chhodo yaar.. Don’t pour water into a pot with a hole!! All water will spill out!!
Rafi fans aese hi hai.. Kisi ki nahi sunte…
Madan mohan ne Kishore da ko zyada use nahi kiya.. so did OP Nayyar or Naushad.. Kabhi kisi KK fan ne unke baare me kharab kaha??
Magar ek baar Anil Biswas ya C ramchandra ne aesa kiya to woh to music world ke dayre se hi bahar ho gaye inki nazar me!!!
Isi lye to aaj ki taarikh pe Kishoreda ke fan followings rafisaab se bahut bahut zyada hai..(jhagada mat karna, jaake Orkut me dekh lo.. Kishore ke 1,27,600 members ke against me tumhare 26,000 members)… jaante ho kyun?? Rafisaab ke liye nahi.. Tum jaise fans ke liye.. Jo rafisaab ke fans bolke doosron ko insult karte hai.. Yeh kaam khud rafisaab ne apni life me kabhi nahi ki..
Bose saaheb, – 1512
I am also interested in hindusthani music. True, haldar saaheb should not have used such undesirable remarks. Perhaps patience is running out .
Surajit da..
Chhod do yaar.. Inke saath zyada jhagda mat karo..
Agar Naushad kehta hai ke Kishore achha nahi tha to woh kishore ki galti hai..
Agar Anil Biswas kehta hai ke rafi achha nahi tha to woh Rafi ki nahi balki Anil Biswas ki hai!!!??? Kya baat hai Rafi fans.. Logic to koi aap logon se seekhe!!
1969 ke baad Rafi kabhi top pe nahi aa saka.. 1977 wala woh “Kya hua tera waada” jisko leke tumlog uchhal kud karte rehte ho, woh bhi rafi ko top pe nahi pahucha paya… kyunki 78 mein hi dada ne Don, Ghar, Muqaddar Ka Sikanadar, Kasme Waade, Manzil aur Golmaal deke sabko mooh tod jawab de diya.. 78 aur 80 ka filmfare award bhi dada le gaye the.. mooh kholna ho to hum bhi khol sakte hai.. magar hum sabko izzat dete hai.. to kya hua Anil Biswas ne Kishore se bhi zyada gaane nahi gawaya( only 8).. To kya hua OP Nayyar ne kishore ke baare me bura kaha..To kya hua Madan Mohan ne dada ko izzat nahi di.. Hum fir bhi unko pujte hai.. hum down to earth hai… Aur tum?? Are tumlog aaina kaise dekhte ho?/ Sharam nahi aati?? Main yeh forum me likhta nahi tha..Magar aaplog itna biased ho ki likhne ka matlab hi nahi banta.. Aap log to COMMUNIST PARTY KE TARAH HO.. KOI DUNIYA MANTA NAHI, MAGAR FOIR BHI HAMARA PHILOSOPHY BEST HAI… HAHAHA
Surajit bose ji,
You have not responded to my earlier mail. (on 1494 & 95)
Hi Anil Cherian,
reg. your message 1507,
What do you do for a living ?
Based on Haldar’s comments in post 1501, should I imagine that you beat up people who are not rafi fans ?
Haldar hinted this at two places:
1. He says “form a group called UAR and then come to us. We’ll take care of you.”
2. He also says “in my youth, we rafians believed in the *simple* motto: “one word against the farishta and you are de*d”.
I am not sure if Rafi will be proud to have fans who are so unlike him, and whose mottos are so *simple*.
haldar saaheb: I am with you. one tail who says is a rafi lover (for pure convenience sake ) wants me to apologise.
i want to tell him that : what thy sow, so shall you reap. and re: the anil biswas controversey, i hereby request the composers family members in new delhi to throw light on the controversey re: rafi saaheb and anil biswas so that this topic is buried.
dear tail, no apologies to rafi saaheb baiters, never and never in this lifetime.
binu nair, mumbai.
Mr. Haldar, post 1501
I had great regard for you from you earlier posts. But, in my view, this post is off the track friend. True, there may be some mischief makers (to be excluded), but also some genuine persons may be present with their views. Liking a different singer may not mean disliking for rafi ji, as tastes differ. Again there are cases where multiple singers are preferred, as someone stating that telugus like ghantasala and rafi alike, malayalees like k j yesudas and rafi etc. But taking some isolated cases, categorising so viewed as “opposing cases” to be negative may take the spirit off the mark.
Some other remark, I have seen here a comment with regard to a music director (biswas though I have not heard him) making comments against rafi, – I have my own doubts whether it is true or has been blown out of proportion. Haldar ji, as I have said, there may be few isolated cases like this, and it is natural to have critics without which the importance will not be known. It is must to have critics, since they are the real indirect fans who provide an opportunity for improvement. We as rafi fans cannot lose patience and act as critics to such critics, as there is sufficient material and scope for argument with anybody in various aspects to present the greatness of rafi ji. if you always find supporters, it may be boring also, rather at times there should be some critics too for making the discussions interesting.
myk,
do you know who played the piano and the accordion for the brahmachari songs? I know that Manohari played the sax, but I am not sure about the other instruments. For the accordion, sj had so many choices including V. Balsara, Y. S. Mulki, Goody Seervai, Dheeraj, Sumit Mitra and Enoch Daniels. My guess is it’s Goody or Dheeraj but I could be wrong. On the piano, I think it’s Lucila or Sunny. If you don’t know the answers, I’ll ask Binu ji to check with Enoch Daniels.
I fully agree with P. Haldar’s comments.
Let’s not waste our time on individuals who come here to start and spread mischief.
Haldar sir:
Nothing but truth from you. What is baffling to me (as I mentioned before) is the fact that they all come in the same prototype. From Rafi fan-to- also Rafi fan-to-nuetral-to- fan of XYZ-to- Rafi critic (or hater?).
On a lighter note, you have mentioned what I do for a living in your post.
Reg. message 1501:
Hi Haldar,
If you are implying that I do not know much about Anil Biswas’ music, you are very much mistaken. Most of my favourite songs of Lata and also Talat are by Biswas. I have been listening to those songs since years and years. And there are many more music aficionados who love the music of Biswas, along with other greats like Naushad, CR, SDB etc.
And I do not know what you were as a youth, but your threats indicate that you are not given to the ideology of non-violence.
Dear manish, sudip, anil cherian, binu nair, dhani ram & other rafi lovers,
I am requesting you all for one last time not to engage in any kind of discussion with the new set of visitors. They have come to this site to create mischief — plain and simple. At 29,028 feet, his majesty feels very lonely. Here’s a song from pyaasa that is beyond the capability of any other singer. This, by the way, is not the one that many, many people consider to be the No. 1 in playback singing, but the other one that rattled the government of its time. This is one of xxx’s favourite songs (xxx, where art thou?) and when you watch this song portrayed on screen by guru dutt, you will know how rafi captured every single movement and mannerism of his. Here’s the song with its prelude; discerning rafians will notice the similarity of the prelude with a very famous ghazal of rafi saab’s.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Umhxp25lqE&feature=related
pyaasa is the bible of playback singing, and if any other singer can reach even 70% of what his majesty achieved in those songs, we should consider him to be great. Orkut babes, it’s time for you now to switch to gili-gili-gappa-gili-gili-gili….. In Bengali, there’s a saying: bamun hoye chand chhnootey nei (a midget should not try to touch the moon).
I think my post got misinterpreted. I did not say that Rafi sang in other people’s styles (imitating).The badge of honor for that goes to the likes of Sudesh Bhosle. My assertion was that Rafi’s voice has multiple shades, some of which can be mapped to other singers. In ‘Kahe ke bhi na aaye tum’ he is closer to Pankaj Mullick, in ‘Yeh Zindagi ke mele’ Rafi resembles G.M Durrani; that does not mean Rafi was imitating either. Rafi’s voice is like the Ganges-near Gomukh it resembles a stream, near Devaprayag it resembles the ferocity of a wild mountain river, near Hardwar it is wider yet rapid, near Calcutta it is vast and calm..As Sonu Nigam stated, “It is unjust to compare any single singer to Rafi. Rafi was 15 singers folded into one”.
Here is a rare song from the maestro:
/watch?v=sW__AbC70oY
Surajit: On the SJ quiz, I did not know the answer. I had some guesses but refrained from answering based on guesswork.
Rafi fan ji,
Thanks a lot for your appreciations.
Surajit bose ji, 1501,
I was happy to read your earlier essays. Can you analyse my post 1494 – & 95 (rafi ji telugu numbers)
Anil ji,
Rafi ji number Baar Baar dekho, the telugu lyrics are different. It goes as enta varu gani vedantulu aina gani valu chupu sokagane telipoduroi……..
meaning however great one may be, including philosophers, tumble when a female sees them …………..
Manish (mess. 1498),
First of all, Raju Bharatan is not a reliable source of information. Secondly, we never know for certain what actually transpired between those artists, whether it is CR and Lata or OPN and Lata (even Asha) or Biswas and Rafi etc. What they say to the public is not necessarily what really happened.
Personally, I have never come across any sources of info, from those that personally met him – and this includes some of my acquaintances from RMIM – where he was spiteful of Rafi. He maintains that Rafi was not suited for his compositions. We might never know if that was true or not, but it is hard to imagine anybody doing better than Talat in so many songs by Biswas.
You can go to www dot anilbiswas dot com and read up the “Impressions” posts by Vish, Kalyan, and Sanjeev.
Also, assuming Biswas was not fair to Rafi, though what you say is fair enough from the point of view as a Rafi fan, that has nothing to do with Biswas’ contribution to music. Biswas may have been a flawed human being, but he was a first rate music director, a genius if there was one. One can criticize the man behind the art, but one should not use personality aspects to criticize his art. If one can find technical flaws in his music, then they should put them forward.
Naushad never publicly commented on Kishore, but he did say that Kishore was not good enough to sing his songs. This is similar to what Biswas said about Rafi too. One can disagree with both comments, but that wouldn’t do anything to diminish the accomplishments of either Biswas or Naushad.
ref post 1498:
hi manish, very good post but my advice to you would be to refrain from any kind of discussion with these guys. They come to this site in the guise of rafi lovers but their true colours show within a few days. For some time, I thought the name of one of these guys is satyanash (killer of truth) but I later realised he doesn’t have the second “a” in his name. In the wake of the satyam scandal, however, anything with “satya” is highly suspect; an audit needs to be conducted before we can believe anything he says. And there’s another orkut babe who lectures us that we are not real lovers of music, that we hate everyone other than rafi, …. And he justifies that by citing an md who made the most malicious and spiteful comment any md can make about any singer.
Suddenly all these ardent music lovers have realised the contributions of this great md, whose name I can vouch they didn’t know till a few months ago, let alone know a single song of his. And, all of a sudden, they have become great fans of ghantasala and mehdi hassan. I have a simple suggestion; form a group called “united against rafi” (uar) and then come to us. We’ll take care of you.
In my youth, we rafians believed in the simple motto: “one word against the farishta and you are de..”. Amen.