True Voice – Mohd Rafi
The following article was brought to my notice when Sharad posted it on MAS. The article has been trimmed down a bit keeping afloat Rafi details. However, anyone interested can go visit the source at http://tfmpage.com/forum/4980.6302.04.57.19.html
I am Swaminatha Iyer and I am 78 years old. I hail from Tiruchi and I am a part of music associations in Tiruchi, M’as as well as in West Bengal and Maharashtra.
I think it is wrong to condemn music or artists on either side of Vindhyas. Our Indian music is one of the few which has not been cleaned off by the western music though there has always been a influence. It speaks a lot of the richness of our music. Sometime back director of MTV had said that MTV westernized the music wherever it went but in India , MTV had to be Indianized for it to be accepted. A lot of this credit goes to the Indian film music.
I have been fortunate to have close personal association with Rafi, Sirkali, TMS, Dr. BMK, Kishore, SPB & KJY, PS, Mannadey and the one and only Lata Mangeshkar.
Comparisons are bound to come, but almost every artist or I have met considers Lata to be beyond comparison. Her talents are beyond anyone’s reach. Even Sirkazi used to talk of her singing like a die-hard fan as do countless others.
Now coming to the Rafi-SPB discussion. It might be difficult to convince an South Indian to believe Rafi is the better and at the same time Rafi crowd will never believe any other male singer comes anywhere nearer. There is one more mobile crowd, which is well conversant with Hindi and some south Indian language. Majority of them tilt to either Rafi or Kishore.
During one of my stays in M’as I had stayed with SPB. While talking of true voices he said, I don’t feel like half a singer when listening to Rafi. True voice is not a tech term but many in circle use it. Perfect example would be lata, but to understand consider our own PS who within her range is superb. People who do not have such true voices can never do justice to original. They generally underplay many parts of the song or fake it with bass/superficial singing. True voices make people like Sirkazi, Nusrat Fateh Ali khan, Lata… Inimitable. However since Sirkazi and Nusrat did not have the filmy voices their “real” following is limited to their local arena.
In addition to the true voice if the singer has a very good voice then in “most” cases he/she can better songs of others. It is this combination which makes Rafi stand out among the other male singers. There are many here who seem to have mistaken notions on a good bass and also on high pitch.
Bryan Adams does not require a monster bass in “Summer of 69” to sound real manly. It is the punch which gives that feel and that is decided only by the comfort level in most ranges (that is by what your throat can support). This you CAN never disguise with bass. Since people have talked about lack of manly voice viz. a viz. Rafi it was necessary to bring this point out. I have had the fortune of listening to most singers in studio and some times without a mike, practicing with MD’s.When Lata or Rafi do, the level is so high that people hesitate to even hum. It felt silly to sing in their presence (and it feels silly when someone says his voice isn’t manly).
In RD’s tribute when SPB sang “Aaja Aaja mein hoon” or “Chaand mera dil” it sounded only sweet and lacked punch if you compare with Rafi’s original.
Yesu once told me God has been partial to Rafi. He said “god gift term anavasyamaa romba common aa ippo use aardu”.. but idu Rafi kee thaan 100% porundu”. This person could sing “as intricately as a lady without sounding thin”, “cover any mood”, “versatility odey perfect example Rafi”. Yesu said most important is the comfort level over ranges which makes you feel God has been partial to Rafi. (But Of course in Rafi’s early career (1950’s) the voice was relatively feeble).
To people exposed to Rafi’s talent, these or any amount of praise can only seem less. I just wish he was alive and you people could get a live chance to hear him. Probably you can get hold of the DD album for the Geet Gaata Chal series where the first four episodes were dedicated to Rafi. Rafi is on camera singing “O Duniya Ke Rakwaaley” and many other songs. If you see and hear the last part you will realize why SPB said “impossible”. I think particularly those people who have talked about scales w.r.t Rafi should see this album. Its a known fact in industry that Rafi ruled high pitch and there is no male singer better in switching notes so easily. There are artists who can go beyond but then they sound strained or they don’t have pleasant voices when they venture into those territories.
Many singers of today are his compulsive followers. But they end up inheriting only part of his quality. Md. Aziz ended up with a sad voice. Mahendra Kapoor with a thick nasal voice. Anwar with a nasal voice. Sonu Nigam with a feminine voice. Rafi neither had a soft voice nor a heavy (bass) voice he had a good voice. Importantly did not strain at high notes, and voice if at all only became better at higher notes. If you see him singing it will remind you of Janaki. However diff the song is or the note is he will be smiling and singing. It is unthinkable that he cannot sing something.
There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo” song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect. There are lot of other songs of SPB where this great singer has played with songs in total control. You will find most south Indian singers who have had a good exposure say that it is beneficial to learn Hindustani as it gives better breath control and improves expression.
Rafi was not only able to glide over a song, the important thing was that he could express each word/sound when singing. It is one thing to hold your breath, start and reach a crescendo (high note), as like in “Shankara”, “Anbey (Yennai kaan villaye)” it is different ballgame if you have to do it from low notes or suddenly switch notes. With practice the former can be done, latter requires a special gift. Rafi had a natural ability to do the latter. In “Tum joh mil gaye ho” there is such a transition in the “karwaan mil gaya” part. I have never seen anyone do justice to most of his songs in my life time. In “parda hai parda” quawaali the similar part is “kar doon to, Akbar mera naam”. In fact most of his songs will have these specialty as it was his natural ability to sing freely in a wide range at the same time giving that extra expression.
Whereas SPB takes us to heavens with “Idu oru pon maali”,”Ilaya nila” “bisiladarenu”(kannada), when he sings Rafi’s song it lacks the punch or expression, though it has the bass. But at least most agree that SPB does some justice to original, whereas most others murder the original.
One trivial point I would like to add is that singing in Hindi is harder. There are more “JHA”,”CHA”,”HA”,”THA”, “KHA”,”JA”,”FA”. These take away the breath faster. The more expressive you are the more air you are using up. Just singing from Nabhi will not help, your throat also needs to do a lot, for singing in Hindi, Bengali etc. SPB makes you fall in love with his south Indian songs but same cannot be said about his Hindi songs. If you just glide through words having these sounds, you will never be expressive. Doing this as well as reaching high notes is not easy. Rafi had this gift and that’s why it is difficult to imagine anyone else in his shoes. Song “Chalkaaye jaam” has so much expression that it is unthinkable how anyone can sing it. When Rafi switches to a high note with “Mitwaa” in the song “Chaahunga mein tughey” you cannot replicate it with bass. Most others will sound as if they are shouting in such cases. That man’s throat had the ability to freely sing at such levels.
Versatility is not just the ability to sing in various styles, more important is how good you are singing in those styles. You have lot of Ghazal singers today but when Rafi sings a Ghazal you will sit up and take notice. You don’t have to be part of the Ghazal listeners crowd. This is one important aspect. Whatever style you sing you should be able to pull the common man to listen and not just a particular crowd. Pick “parda hai parda” or any qawalli and it will stand tall among other qawalli’s.
Variety is amazing :
songs of Guru Dutt’s Khagaz key phool or songs like abhi naa jao chod key, Aaja teri yaad aayi, Aaj kal mein dhal gaya, Aaj kal terey merey pyaar, Aasmaan sey aaya farishta, Dil ney pyaar kiya hai, Deewana mujh saa nahi, Din dhal jaaye, Duniya paagal hai, Jaane walon jara, Dil joh na kaha saka, Dil key jharokon mein, Dil kaa bhavar, Chalkey teri aakkhon sey, Kar chaley hum fida, khilona jaan kar tum, Woh jab yaad aay, Woh hain jara khafa, Vaadian mera daaman, Pathar key sanam, Chaand mera dil, Main zindagi kaa saath, Mainey poocha chaand sey, sun sun jaalima, Koi jab raah na paay, hum to chaley pardes, badan pey sitaarey, laal chadi maidaan, Tum jo mil gaye, O meri shaahey, Sau baar janam lengey, Tum mujhey yoon bhula, Tumney mujhey dekha, Terey merey sapney, Tumny pukaara hum chaley aay
Name a situation/mood and Rafi’s song will be there on the top.
Swami
ref 1498 – posted in wrong forum – terribly sorry!
Rafifanji:
Although Rafisahab did sing in a Malayalam movie, it wasn’t a Malayalam song, rather it was a Hindi one. I’ve heard the song, it wasn’t a big movie and it wasn’t picturised on any big stars and I can’t find the link anywhere.
Raghavanji:
This particular Telugu song by Rafisahab, it follows the tune of ‘baar baar dekho..’ only or the lyrics as well?
personal comments of even an elite md isn’t something to always be taken to heart. you have to use discretion. if c ramachandra said lata was no better than a tape recorder then we realize how to interpret that. it’s also true that some words written in print can be taken out of context. you don’t know the mood or manner of utterance of the words. it’s also true that we are humans and momentarily we deviate from our usual self and say things that don’t really represent us. raju bharatan is likely to exploit all these factors and sensationalize. in fact, if i understand correctly, the piece by raju bharatan on anil biswas was written without anil biswas’ consent. anil biswas did not knowngly sit down for an interview on that occasion. raju bharatan showed up to his house uninvited in a private gathering of friends and heard these things as a bystander and made it public. that’s not exactly fair. i heard this description from an elderly poster at hamaraforums who claimed to have known anil biswas.
truth be told, i’m not even sure of exactly what anil biswas said nor do i care. i’ve heard several versions. i understand the feelings of other rafi fans. they are under the impression that anil biswas made spiteful, personal, and comments beyond the bounds of personal preference for music. even if anil biswas isn’t soley responsible and has been unfairly invaded of his private thoughts, regardless of the reason, the end result is that it was understandably hurtful to rafi fans. theres special weight of accountability on anil biswas because he is *actually* a person of significance (this applies to others alike).
mehdi hassan: he made comments *limited to his personal taste* for music and i can respect that. his comments are of little surprise given his style of singing.
op nayyar: he gave his explanation in “good spirits”. he has always been very respectful of lata. as a side note, common sense indicates that he & lata never came together due to personal incompatability rather than music.
naushad: naushad may not have preferred kishore’s style but was he ever spiteful? no. rd burman may have preferred someone other than rafi but he was never spiteful (the raju bharatan article of last year was a joke) and that’s why there’s no reason to take offense from either md.
anil biswas supposedly went beyond. he didn’t just simply say he didn’t like rafi. his words were *presented* with connotations of spite (and this separates him from the above examples). this is not a completely rational subject but a topic dear to the hears of many rafi fans. besides, no one is perfect and that includes anil biswas. if he’s called on it, so be it. when anil biswas was asked to rate lata’s top 10 songs, all ten of his choices were his own. that’s fine (and sensible as he was an accomplished md) but it is also somewhat of an indication about his perspective for others.
Raghavan ji – 1494
Thank you sir for the link for the great song by shri ghantasala (this is in his music direction as you said, not shri rajeswar rao, which I requested). The song created an ecstatic feeling in me, hitherto provided by great rafi ji numbers. It is a devotional rendering par excellence & Indeed truly divine and mind blowing as can also be seen from the comments there. Thanks a lot again for the link.
1495,
Thanks also for link for rafi ji’s telugu numbers (only bits are available from each song) First song is bar bar dekho in hindi. The hindi rafi ji’s number is great as compared to his telugu rendering.
This is the first time I am finding a link here to rafi ji’s telugu renderings. Thanks a lot again for this great piece of information.
Anil ji,
Any malayalam songs by rafi ji. If any could you provide the links.
Binu Nair ji and other rafi lovers.
The news is just there. Pama awardees have been announced. Udit Narayan, Kumar sanu have been awarded padmashri. No issues (I do not know what to say). Plight is amar gayaks like rafi, shri ghantasala too have only padmashri. Kishore da has nothing.
it is an interesting fact that music lovers of kerala is
having a special connection with rafi saab.rafi saab’s
connection with kerala way back to 1952!without
singing a single song in malayalam language he
becomes their own singer!no singer can even dream
about.even ordinary people are his fans.recently i have
visited a small town – ponnani (in malappuram district)
there in a small barber shop i have seen a big portrait
of rafi saab.people are happy to put his name for their
sons.i am among one.people are treating him as more
than their beloved one.recently i have read an article
saying the famous tamil singer t m sounder rajan attend
for a function but people could not recognize him in his own state.after seeing this one of his fans going to do something for promoting him.
a singer died before 28 years still living in the hearts of
the people.even his sound is enough to recognize him.
rafi saab’s fans are believing that he is near some where.
Rafi fan ji, I continue to my previous post
Here is the link for rafi ji’s contribution to telugu playback singing. Hope music lovers enjoy this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj2HSW1HRbk
Rafi fan ji – Thank you very much for your appreciations. Pl. quote your great name. Indeed you are a true rafi fan. Rafi ji has sung in the music direction of others in telugu, but not under the music director sri rajeswara rao. I will post rafi ji telugu numbers when I get the links. As per your request, here is a mesmerising song by sri ghantasala (this is in his own music direction) – a treat for all music lovers to enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux49blEXTds
Agree with Manishji that the voice we hear in ‘mehboob ki mehndi’ song is beyond the prowess of Rafi-clones. I’d brand that voice as “Rafi voice for L.P in that period (69-72)”-full and open-throated. It’s this voice that the younger generation knows Rafisahab for and it’s this voice that the clones (generally speaking) aspire for. Also agree that it’s the ‘less-than-top form’ voice of Rafisahab’s (not necessarily of the late ’70s), that sounds (sometimes) as if a clone’s. I’d loved to post some video links, but it seems this site is playing tricks (technical or otherwise).
Raghavji:
Please go to the page ‘a difference’ and scroll down to ‘views and comments on other singers’.
1490 – Raghavan sir,
Great song by p suseela in your post under the music direction of shri rajeswar rao. His music direction skills are simply beyond imagination. In fact very appealing & melodious. Did rafi ji render any song under this great music director in telugu ? If any such song exists kindly provide the link. Pl. also provide some mesmerising song of shri ghantasala under the music direction of shri rajeswar rao for me to enjoy.
Anil – 1485
I have seen jayachandran site which you mentioned. He does not mention anywhere about rafi. Could you pl. mention on which page of the site comments mentioned by you are available.
1486 sudip dat ji,
I am somehow not able to agree with your comments on rafi ji rendering in styles of other singers, specially mentioned by you. In fact, in my view, rafi ji was altogether in a different league and above as compared to the singers mentioned therein. Comparison with them does not make any sense vs. the talent of great rafi ji.
1482 singh ji,
S rajeswara rao was the greatest music director in telugu who experimented with both carnatic and hindusthani styles. In fact he learnt hindusthani music from none other than saigal ji. Rajeswara rao was the main music director who made p suseela famous. Just to know about the talent of sri rajeswara rao, here is a great song from telugu movie bhakta prahlada by p suseela. I hope all music lovers enjoy this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkrkAUrWT-c
There are many great great songs rendered by ghantasala also under his music direction. Singh ji, in fact in my view, he is the most superior music director.
Continuing on post 1483, the answer is “gHaR aaYA meRa paRdesi” from “Awaara”. It is derived from a song by the Arabic danseuse Amal al-Atrash known by her more famous name Asmahan.
correction: *I* always look forward to *your* posts. it’s good that you post occasionally from time to time. always appreciated.
1468
thank you sudip for sharing those songs. many of them i heard for the first time. i really enjoyed them. these are my favorite times on the forum when i learn more new songs that i really like. i’ve learned so much from your posts. greatly appreciated.
my favorite of the bunch was “apna hai tu begana”. first time i heard it as i was too occupied with “yeh jo chilman hai” and “itnaa yaad hai mujhe”. this new song you shared actually seems to be the best of that album! all these years i was missing out on it while it was right in front of me? ironically, you mention it has some semblance for the clones. i guess it is a matter of opinion but i actually disagree there. his voice did not sound “anwarish” or like the others in this song as it did in others like “bin maa ke yeh bache” title song (1980 music by OP) when rafi was past his prime and gave checkered performances. he sang that mehboob ki mehndi song with emotions and voice quality and magic that only he could provide.
as a side note, this video also got me to appreciate pradeep kumar more. he was a much better actor & talent than given credit for. he had the face of a noble king (just my opinion) and that suited rafi’s wholesome songs very well like “jo wada kiya”. pradeep kumar gets underappreciated because despite being a good actor he didn’t have the “heroic” look like dharmendra (latter who is not necessary a better actor).
definitely see your connection of “yahi to hai woh” having a semblance to kishore’s styles. also strongly agree on the two voices for shashi in “haseena maan jayegi”. i did see some difference in the ladies tailor song but not as clear as in haseena maan jayegi. any way, thanks again for your great list – look forward to future posts every now and then.
Here are some sample songs of Rafi that resemble tonal quality and/or style of other singers:
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTCqVwxO42U&NR=1 (energetic, vibrant and optimallly grainy as Kishore of 60s)
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KOYCgXLn3g (soft, mellow and silken as Talat)
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8XIh9GprSo (sombre and dry like Mukesh)
4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXzUvvbbN7U (somewhere between Bhupinder and Suresh Wadkar, though I do not think either of them would have scaled to the heights of this rendition)
5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn9FcT8b_xs (Kishore’s masculine style of 70s)
6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QUdQcPkL2Y (you will find similarity with Rafi’s own clones of the recent years,possibly deliberately done to skew it from the hero centric song)
7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAeR9ERJj6c (youthful and coarse like Shailendra Singh)
8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c213rkrQfA (between Habib Wali Mohammed and Mehdi Hasan)
I have multiple examples in each category (plus more categories). Send these songs to anyone who has never heard Rafi and ask him/her to identify the number of distinct singers. If he/she comes up with a number less than 4, I’d be very, very surprised.
If you think that it is too much of an exercise, just send #2 and #7.
Hi all:
I went to http://www.jayachandransite.com and here’s what I’ve found:
Views And Comments About Other Singers
Jayachandran discusses his views about other singers and musicians. To begin with he always starts his day of a busy schedule of singing by devoting a few minutes to his singing goddess P.Susheela, who had possessed a divine voice which was recognized by the whole of India, aged but an unforgettable singer. ” If I have to point out a male singer I admire most, I will name Raafi Saab. He would sing all types of songs in the exact mood needed and miraculously create a blend of music with the song. As a singer if you consider it necessary to imitate anybody’s style I would suggest Raffi’s. I consider his singing as near to perfection.” The Nightingale of South India, S.Janaki cannot be passed without a keen reference by Jayachandran. He comments that her voice cannot be imitated in anyway at all. “Mannade is another singer whom I admire very much. I grew up listening to his magical voice “.”Ofcourse not to forget Kishore Kumar. I truly admire his versatility.
Now it’s over to yours truly. Frankly I’m not surprised at all reading Jayachandran sir’s remarks about Rafisahab, I’d already read and listened to even more assertive comments from this singer as well as the one he calls his elder brother (Das sir) on Rafi sahab.
Now let’s listen to a National award winning song from this great (but under-rated) singer:
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=NaVSafcoPn8
And here’s my (very subjective, off course) view on the voice. A good, clean voice appreciated more by fans of soft, subdued singing. A voice more ‘universal’ than Ghantasalaji’s or TMS’ yet rather ‘South Indian’.
Dear Singhji:
(Ref posts# 1473, 1482)
Thank you for complimenting me as a person of ‘vast knowledge’. But I don’t consider myself to be one, honestly. I’m just a bit musical (not certainly someone with a range and texture better than Rafisahab’s) and I’m a willing learner, that’s just about it. And I’m not propounding any ‘confusing’ theories, really I’m not. Subjective? yes; I don’t claim it to be otherwise. I don’t understand why some folks are dragging my ‘objectivity in comparison’ comment everywhere and trying to state that I’m claiming objectivity in every single word I post here. And I stick to all that I’ve posted here.
Speaking of Ghantasalaji’s popularity in Kerala (which may or may not be a big deal from an ‘objective’ point of view), please believe me when I say that less than 10% of the population have heard about a name called Ghantasala and may be 5% may have actually heard him. I’d be happier if every Malayalee come to know him and start listening to him but it is not the case. Rafisahab, in contrast, is as famous as any National figure we have had. He’s the most loved singer for the Malayalee other than Yesudas sir. Even SPB sir (who’s no foreigner in Kerala) and Lataji are behind, so is our own Jayachandran sir. Please believe me when I say that in the reality shows (which is raging in all the Mallu channels) hardly anyone sings Jayachandran songs (which is a pity). It’s either Yesudas sir or Rafisahab (unless something else is solicited). And the crowd that attends Rafi-related programmes is seen to be believed. May be A.S.Murthy sir (who I believe has recently arranged a Rafi-centric concert in Kerala) can add something on this.
Reiterating that none of my comments are meant to show either Ghantasalaji or Jayachandran sir in a lesser light.
Talking about S-J leads me to pose the following question:
what is the very famous S-J song (and which film) that was inspired from the base tune of a famous arabic number ?
1479 – satyansh ji,
Great post by you and I am in complete agreement with your views. Pl. refer to post 1248 by Mr. Pardus for desired information by you. Pl. do post your views after hearing the same. However, in my view, the you tube and other links complete clarity is not there, though you may get an ouline of the renditions. Kindly give your mail address, I will get in touch with you for further information in this regard.
1472 – Prasad ji,
Welcome sir, Great post by you. Indeed true message.
Akash ji,
I had visited kerala no. 1 site on Jayachandran. You are right. Even in that site ghantasala – rafi discussion is in full swing. These two are revered by many as the greatest in that kerala site. Even jayachandran is loved much.
Anil Cherian ji,
Kindly visit kerala no. 1 site on jayachandran. Many regard jayachandran as greater than k j yesudas there. But as akash ji said, ghantasala and rafi are most revered there.
Satyansh and sudip dat ji,
In my view, it was music director naushad who had introduced variety ranges and techniques for music in h f m and who was alone successful in fully exploiting and bringing out to the world the talent of rafi ji. Remaining music directors, o p nayyar, shankar jai kishan, ravi, chitragupt are fine but I feel naushad had a great role in making rafi ji shine. In telugu also, similar to naushad, there is a great music director by name s rajeswara rao, who experimented with variety ranges similar to naushad and in telugu all his songs are hits and he was the man who exploited fully the talents and ranges of ghantasala and p suseela. For information on sri saluri rajeswara rao, music lovers may pl. know him from google.com
Appending at the beginning…
satyansh:
“think some singers can adapt their “tries†better than others. I have known a few people who have been able to tell it was Sanjeev Kumar in “Meri Bheegi Bheegi Siâ€. In fact, I have known many people who thought “Aake Seedhi Lagi Dil Pe†was sung by Pran”
-Same with “Sar jo tera chakraye” picturized on Johnie Walker or “Kabhi agey kabhi pichey” on Mehmood. Personally, regardless of these examples on either side, I do not think adaptation to an actor should be a criterion on judging any singer, whether Rafi or Kishore. I care for adaptation to a situation or a genre of songs and not for adaptation to an actor (though Anil did cite a few examples of that nature). Why on earth should Harivansh Rai Bachchan and Teji Bachchan’s genetics determine how good a singer Rafi or Kishore is? Lata Mangeshkar is Lata Mangeshkar whether or not she is has Diana Hayden’s huskiness or Waheeda’s femininity.
“Rafi also has limitations in these tweaks involving the head voice and that is another area where Kishore excelled.â€
-There are number of songs where Rafi did employ the head voice excellently. “Waadiyan mera damanâ€, “Ni sultana re†are some of them. But I do not have better examples of “falsetto†tweaks than “Pukarta Chala hoon main†and “Jawaniyan yeh mast bin piye†in the whole spectrum of Hindi film music.
“Rafi was an exceptional singer, but what he sang was very human. Many people in this world might have Rafi’s range. I know people very close to me with that range, greater voice modulations and great voice texture.â€
-Possibly a myth till one gets behind the microphone. Also I do not think range is the issue here (I posted this earlier). Smoothness of transition is.. Several people like AR Rahman, Asha Bhosle talked about Rafi’s ability to switch back and forth effortlessly and smoothly..Listen to these versions of “Dil Ki jharoke mein†from all established singers (especially the time ranges provided in parentheses):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn-uB7tmJ7U (2:06 to 2:30)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0YLqFAy26I (2:05 to 2:34 inspite of lowering the tempo or taal)
And then listen to Rafi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9NQm07lReA (1:00 to 1:28)
Judge for yourself. I rest my case..
satyansh:
“Rafi also has limitations in these tweaks involving the head voice and that is another area where Kishore excelled.”
-There are number of songs where Rafi did employ the head voice excellently. “Waadiyan mera daman”, “Ni sultana re” are some of them. But I do not have better examples of “falsetto” tweaks than “Pukarta Chala hoon main” and “Jawaniyan yeh mast bin piye” in the whole spectrum of Hindi film music.
“Rafi was an exceptional singer, but what he sang was very human. Many people in this world might have Rafi’s range. I know people very close to me with that range, greater voice modulations and great voice texture.”
-Possibly a myth till one gets behind the microphone. Listen to these versions of “Dil Ki jharoke mein” from all established singers (especially the time ranges provided in parentheses):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn-uB7tmJ7U (2:06 to 2:30)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0YLqFAy26I (2:05 to 2:34 inspite of lowering the tempo or taal)
And then listen to Rafi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9NQm07lReA (1:00 to 1:28)
Judge for yourself. I rest my case..
sudip_dat (post No.1471):
I have no issues with any of the points you have made regarding Rafi/Kishore (even though I am not in agreement with many of them) because both of us are expressing opinions without claiming for them to be facts. Ghantasala is in a different league. Can some Ghantasala lover guide me to a youtube link of his songs in Suvarna Sundari or more semi-classical/classical numbers sung by him?
To reply to your statement: “…No singer in the world can adapt the voice texture to “match†an actor-they can at best try. If anyone can tell without knowing that “Meri bheegi bheegi si†is picturized on Sanjeev Kumar…”. I think some singers can adapt their “tries” better than others. I have known a few people who have been able to tell it was Sanjeev Kumar in “Meri Bheegi Bheegi Si”. In fact, I have known many people who thought “Aake Seedhi Lagi Dil Pe” was sung by Pran. When I went to youtube to find and post a link to this video, here is a comment I found there – “…can anybody tell who sang the male version? it seems pran sung that. but some sources say kishore sang the entire, male and female, version.”. Here is the link – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BQhtqWAhrY – you can make up your own mind as to whether or not it sounds just like Pran. I have no doubts in my mind it sounds just like Pran. That is one of the areas where-in Kishore excels. You said “…Rafi had different voice adaptations within small periods of his career, often within the same movie…”. Here I have given you an example of voice adaptations in one song, let alone small periods in Kishore’s career or the same movie.
I personally think Rafi did not do as good a job as Kishore of adjusting to an actor’s texture (I’m not talking about style, I think they were both equally good there) and also Kishore’s fundamental change in texture was much more pronounced than Rafi’s – others are free to have their opinions. I earlier posted an example when Rafi sang “Yeh Duniya Yeh Mehfil†(a song I love), did he really adapt to Raaj Kumar’s texture? Again I’m only talking about Voice (texture and style). In my opinion/analysis on my site, I use various other factors. For example, if you talk about semi-classical renditions, I like Rafi over Kishore and Manna Dey over Rafi – again it is my opinion. However, after listening to Ghantasala, I am really interested in listening to more of this genius. These are all personal subjective likes, nothing else. If one knows a little about music, it helps in a neutral analysis.
You talk about true voice, false voice and “…Rafi did that adaptation in a pretty high range discomfortable enough for most singers, which is almost superhuman to me…”. Mr. Khan had rightly pointed out these and other fallacies in a different context in his post where people were describing false ranges and how human voices (other than Rafi’s) couldn’t reach that range. I’d written about this in one of my earlier posts – let me re-post, tweak and explain again. You might not care about it now, but since most people here are music lovers, when you know these things your appreciation for music and also for Rafi would increase. –
What is this concept of true voice? Every person has a natural range. I have my own, in fact anyone who has learnt how to sing would know exactly what their natural range is. At my range I can sing from the throat, nabhi, head voice, etc. I think what you call false voice is the throat or the head voice. In the head voice one can potentially reach a higher pitch. You have to know something, many singers in the west (even Western classical) sing in this voice. It is not good or bad, it is a different style of singing also because of the way certain sounds are naturally sung or even spoken. If anybody has learnt Hindustani classical, they might remember their teachers telling them back in the day “pet se gao” if they were singing in a head voice. This is not the same for many other forms of singing. Another example is yodelling, which is done by going back and forth between your nabhi/chest voice and head voice (often called falsetto). Rafi also has limitations in these tweaks involving the head voice and that is another area where Kishore excelled. It takes a lot of practice and talent to do what Kishore did in his head voice and the switching back and forth. That is an adaptation of both texture and style. So while you are talking about true voice, false voice and superhuman ranges; don’t forget that there are different styles of singing and these superhuman ranges that are being mentioned on this forum are not really superhuman. Rafi was an exceptional singer, but what he sang was very human. Many people in this world might have Rafi’s range. I know people very close to me with that range, greater voice modulations and great voice texture. Not all singers go on to sing for Hindi films, in fact in many families it was not considered good to sing in films in those days. Rafi’s range, sweetness in his voice, etc. are a great combination, but his adaptations are not superhuman and believe me, I have heard many people first hand who can do these in their own voice as long it’s their natural range. It’s not very common to have this natural range, but it is not superhuman by any means.
I like “Meri Bheegi Bheegi Si” over “Mere dushman tu meri” – so I do not subscribe to your views there. We are all free to have our opinions as long as we are not propogating false statements as facts. I like listening to Rafi a lot, but I differentiate between perspectives and facts.
Haldar sir:
Here are the songs:
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=Efvdl2_zVtk
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=jN5lLXMYiYM
Terrific post, Sudeepji. Fully with you…. What about this voice of Rafisahab’s:
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=lPIQgKUgtco
I think the voice is soft yet punchy here, goes perfectly with the he-man Dharam.
Here’s another voice (but the same singer):
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=U-PmtXVVf68
Heavier but restrained to suit Amitabh.
Here’s another:
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=RhNjcBdV4PE
Coarser for the young fellow abandoned in the desert.
Here’s yet another one:
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=2I1cs6m8hcc
Sweet and gentle for the ‘romance star’.
“And this leads me to pose the following quiz question. Shankar-Jaikishan use the base tune of a famous Elvis number, adorn it with their superb orchestration and hand it over to Rafi. Rafi takes the tune to the skies. Does anyone know which song that is?”
-“Kaun hai jo sapnon mein aaya” after Elvis’s Marguerita.
There is also an adaptation of a Beatles number in Janwar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHnsmzClD0o
In the famous guruvayur temple of kerala, every day the famous song krishna mukunda murari by ghantasala (from a telugu fim panduranga mahatyam) is played!!!!!????Is it is a joke?and that also not mean that he is the best..Mohd Rafi is only Indian all Pakistans love him…I don’t want to say anything about ghantasala because I don’t know who is he.SBP spoke on Zee tv that Mohd Rafi is the best singer not ghantasala ……………i never saw any programm on TV where they spoke about ghantasala ……….
God made one earth and one Mohd Rafi
sudip, let me explain how your notion of adaptability is actually related to universality with the help of an example. When I travel through different countries, as I am doing now, I carry a small bag and a laptop with me. The laptop, as you know, has an inbuilt mechanism for handling a range of voltages and frequencies. For a moment, consider the voltage to be equivalent to the amplitude (volume) and frequency to be equivalent to the pitch of a song. But as you know, my laptop is useless without a universal adaptor, which allows me to plug my laptop into the power point, whether I’m in India, Singapore, France or the US. There are only a few singers who can handle the first two dimensions reasonably well. But it’s the third dimension where rafi scores above everyone else, making him the universal voice.
What does the universal adaptor mean in the context of film music? It means adapting your voice and mood to the local context, whether it’s bhajan, naat, nazm, ghazal, qawaali, geet, rock ‘n roll, folk, etc. etc. Rafi goes into the mood of a song so quickly that you’d think he was born to sing only in that genre. For example, when he’s singing rock ‘n roll, he wouldn’t make you feel that he is chanting sanskrit slokas (sorry, couldn’t help this one).
And this leads me to pose the following quiz question. Shankar-Jaikishan use the base tune of a famous Elvis number, adorn it with their superb orchestration and hand it over to Rafi. Rafi takes the tune to the skies. Does anyone know which song that is?
When you hear Elvis and Rafi side by side, you will all appreciate what “universality” means and stop comparing other singers with rafi.
There has been no one like him. When rafi was at one of the lowest points in his career, his mentor and lifelong well-wisher naushad saab reminded him: “rafi, singers like you are born once in a thousand years.” Nothing can be closer to the truth.
Anil cherian ji,
To clear some of your notions.
In the famous guruvayur temple of kerala, every day the famous song krishna mukunda murari by ghantasala (from a telugu fim panduranga mahatyam) is played. This is for your comment on ghantasala being loved in kerala. His bhagavad gita is regularly played in the world’s no. 1 temple – tirupathi every day. The gita rendering by him, takes you behind life, in fact if someone loses his dear or near ones, I have seen almost (all) andhras playing this rendering by ghantasala , it is so famous. His contribution thus has incomparable influence while living and after that also.
Fine, Rafi ji’s contribution is indeed tremendous and you, i or others cannot and will not dispute this fact and as satyansh ji puts it, to prove a point, i cannot expect a person with vast knowledge like you to post confusing subjective views.
Dear Mr Anil Cherian & other esteemed rafi lovers,
I have visited this great site of the legend rafi more than one year back in which i had posted one message. In fact, I am a great lover of rafi ji, as well as ghantasala ji as I am a telugu man settled in United States. I wanted to share some special point with reference to anil ji’s observation of universal voice. I have seen many americans who were mesmerised by the voice of ghantasala similar to rafi. In fact, in our states too the telugu academy every year conducts programmes remembering ghantasala, who was the amar gayaka of telugu. This is not to say the other way. Rafi ji is indeed popular in many places. So I do think, anil ji, you should stand corrected in your opinion on universal acceptance of ghantasala’s voice. In fact, akash ji is very much correct in his views on this universal voice concept.
Another point as satyansh ji puts it, I had shared sri khan’s message in this forum (his analysis on siva sankari song of ghantasala – to just see whether sri khan’s views are true) with some of musicians (my friends in states) and they are in complete agreement with sri khan’s analysis. This is not subjective pl.
Moreover, I am really perplexed and feel happy that this discussion on rafi-ghantasala , the really greatest playback singers of india, have been continuing till date (more than 1 year of my posting one message in this excellent forum of great rafi ji).
Narayan ji, – you are true, in hindi rafi ji has no comparison though many singers try to compare with rafi ji, which is of course simply not possible. Similarly, all telugu musicians and playback singers including spb and others consider that comparison with ghantasala is not a topic for discussion at all. In fact, you cannot find even one telugu man who (even in dream ) dare to say that anybody was or is or will be greater or at least nearer to ghantasala (in telugu) Really narayan ji, – chaste telugu songs as well as sanskrit renderings with such amazing perfection , have never been by any playback singer, as were in the voice of ghantasala ji, and that attraction is lost forever for the andhras and which cannot be thought of again. In fact spb too is not comfortable with telugu pronounciation. Same is rafi ji in hindi, he cannot be replaced forever. But comparison between these two everlasting voices, I cannot say anything because I am lover of both equally. In fact, in my view, if any person says says something against either ghantasala or rafi, it is out of sheer jealousy or ignorance about the true talents of these greats, though in their heart of hearts, their admirations are simply exceptional as far as these singers are concerned.
Satyansh:
No singer in the world can adapt the voice texture to “match” an actor-they can at best try. If anyone can tell without knowing that “Meri bheegi bheegi si” is picturized on Sanjeev Kumar and “Musafir hoon yahon” is picturized on Jeetendra, I’d be surprised. Personally, I wouldn’t be able to. Let me try to make a humble attempt to illustrate the difference between Kishore’s adaptation and Rafi’s adaptation.
1. Kishore was following Saigal during the period when he sang “Jagmag jagmag karta nikla” (an excellent song). These variations in Kishore’s voice was observed over his career, just as the Lata of the 1980s was very different from the Lata of the 1960s. I personally like Kishore of the 1960s the most. Rafi had different voice adaptations within small periods of his career, often within the same movie.
2. Kishore softened his voice for some songs like “Aatey Jaatey khubsurat” or “Chookar mere manko” but that did not change the fundamental texture of his voice, mainly because he did not sing those songs in his true voice. Not to demean the standard of those songs, even Abhijeet and Kumar Sanu often resort to softening their voices. If you listen to Abhijeet’s “Lamha lamha” from Gangster, the entire song has been sung in a false, soft voice. That does not make it any less appealing, but that’s not the Abhijeet of certain other songs. To me that’s style, as you said.
Rafi could fundamentally change the texture of his voice (may or may not sound like the actor, that’s subjective). But Rafi could do it in full throttle (no false voice and that is the big, big difference). If you listen to “Woh woh na rahe” (Badaltey Rishtey) and “Mere dost kissa” (Dostana) these songs have been song with a coarse texture which is very much un-Rafi. And Rafi did that adaptation in a pretty high range discomfortable enough for most singers, which is almost superhuman to me. Rafi of “Suhani Raat dhal chuki” and “Aapne yaad dilaya” (Aarti) was very heavy on the bass where as Rafi of “Aaye bahaar banke” (Rajhaath) or “Main aapne aap se ghabran raha hoon” is quite high on pitch. Rafi of “Jab Mohabbat Jawaan hoti hai” (Jawaan Mohabbat) is very firm and open like most Ghazal singers while “Theheriye hosh mein aa lo” was tender like Talaat. I hope I could convey that there was no feeling of Rafi either deliberately softening or going coarse in these songs. Rafi’s voice is transient and temporal, only true for that particular song being recorded. Almost amazing!
You mentioned disappointment, anger and anguish in context of “Meri Bheegi Bheegi Siâ€. Though it may sound subjective, but the best song that mixes these is this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JGFROWx8h4
Mr. Akash (post no.1461), thank you for correcting Mr. Anil’s notion of Ghantasala not being loved in Kerala or Tamilnadu. I would not have been able to counter that subjective claim. It would indeed be very sad if people from those states would not have been able to love the genius of Ghantasala as Mr. Anil put it.
Mr. sudip_dat (post no.1461), I am in complete agreement with your statement “I think there is a lot of subjectivity in Anil’s claim that Rafi’s voice is a “universal†voice.” and that is all I am saying too. If people parade their notion of universal voice as objective, then I believe I am free to call it out respectfully.
Regarding the songs you posted, I am not sure what “manifestations” you are trying to highlight? Those manifestations, as I understand the term being used, can broadly be categorized as voice texture and style. While the songs do demontrate Rafi’s variations in style (there are better examples of Rafi for this), I think they also demonstrate his limitations when it comes to imitating texture of an actor, did you really think he sounded at all like Sanjeev Kumar in any of those songs as opposed to Kishore singing “Meri Bheegi Bheegi Si”? Rafi was great at adapting to styles, but not so much texture because his voice was just extraordinarily sweet (which is a gift). For example, when Rafi sang “Yeh Duniya Yeh Mehfil” (a song I love), did he really adapt to Raaj Kumar’s texture? If a person can look at it with a neutral view, they can evaluate for themselves. I think Kishore did a marginally better job at incorporating voice texture of an actor into his singing than Rafi. Please note that I am talking about the texture here, not the style – I think they were both equally good at adjusting for an actor’s style. An example of Kishore’s texture would be him singing “Aake Seedhi Lagee Dil Pe” for Pran. You can clearly hear Pran in that song. Kishore singing the girls part in that funny voice in the same song is his X-factor (multiple manifestations as you put it with Kishore’s funny twist here). Kishore sang in a softer texture for Devanand – “Dukhi Mann Mere” and “Phoolon Ke Rang Se” are examples. You can hear more restraint in Kishore’s voice when he sang for Sanjeev Kumar, an example being “Meri Bheegi Bheegi Si”. In this Kishore has expressed disappointment, anger and anguish very well. Another example of good emoting is where Kishore sang “Dilbar Mere Kab Tak Mujhe” for Amitabh as a confident lover – you can hear the confidence in his voice and of course see it in Amitabh’s acting. Kishore sang in an open heavy voice for Amitabh most times. A couple of exceptions that come to mind are “Badi Suni Suni Hai” that was picturised on Amitabh. I don’t think Amitabh is shown as singing it. Kishore said the word “kabhi” in this song with restraint and “dabe” as in “dabe paav” very softly to metaphorically illustrate sorrow tip-toeing into his life. Another texture of Kishore is what I call filtered (CHani hui awaaz) for that is what I heard it being called growing up. Examples of this are in the start of “Ek Ajnabee Haseena Se”, “Roop Tera Mastana”, etc. and innumerable such songs. For Kishore in Saigal mould, you can hear – Jagmag Jagmag Karta Nikla (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbXBD-HGzwA). For Mukesh, when Saigal heard “Dil Jalta Hai” he said he doesn’t remember singing that song. What can be a bigger complement than that? As far as Ghantasala is concerned, I am not really well-versed with South Indian singers (except for those who sing mainly classical), but if a man can sing this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3w5omAMF98), I would simply put him in a separate league. That song is a beauty. Please note that when I talk about Rafi/Kishore/Mukesh/Ghantasala above in response to your query to see examples, I am refering to texture and style and not to so some notion of universal voice. I have presented my own subjective views and you are free to disagree and have your own.
Mr. Anil Cherian (post no.1463), you evaded/overlooked the questions I asked, namely “What criteria are you talking about? All such criteria that I have come across are subject to personal interpretations.” and “You keep talking about this concept of global voice. What is it? Do you seriously think it is objective?”. Even if your notion of Ghantasala not being liked is true (which I don’t buy), it does not mean anything. You are just saying subjective things and falsely propounding them as objective evaluations and I object to that. We are all free to have our own opinions, all I ask you to do is evaluate your own statements and think if they are subjective or objective. Your comparisons between Elvin/Rafi and Elvin/Ghantasala make no sense to me, so I am just going to drop that. If anything, Elvis sounds closer to Kishore to me, but what’s the point? That is just my subjective opinion. I am not sure about what you are refering to in your second para – “…young boy who’s won VOI contest may be compared to Rafisahab…”. My earlier post no.1460 was in reply to your post no.1457 where you say “…I was stating my opinion that Rafisahab’s voice is the type which satisfies the crieteria that’s been set for a ‘good male voice’, globally. That voice has a property (which is not very easy to describe) that gives it a universal appeal/acceptance. One can’t say the same about some of the other famous Indian male voices. Very personally speaking, Ghantasalaji’s voice doesn’t appeal much to me…”. Do these statements of yours sound objective to you? I rest my case for what you are saying is simply a perpective under the garb of objectivity.
Haldar sir:
You’ve made my day. I’m so thrilled at your compliments that I don’t feel like going to sleep.
Sudipji:
Thanks for all those songs. Infact all the 3 are new to me. Nice to listen to the subtle modulations even in the late ’70s (by which time the Baad shah did lose a bit of his voice adaptation skills).
Have you listened to the ‘Kabuliwala’ song (which Haldar sir has posted here some months back) where Rafisahab play-backs for 6-7 characters and sounds distinctinctly different for each of them?
What makes Rafisahab’s voice look (and sound) good on almost everyone on screen? His voice (and style) modulation skill is a major factor but more than that it’s the ‘universal’ character of that voice. We can visualise Rafisahab doing a nice play-backing job on people like NTR (I believe he’s actually done it), MGR, Sivaji Ganesan, Raaj Kumar (South’s),Prem Nazir et al. But can we visualise Ghantasalaji/TMS/Dr.BMK etc. doing a good job on Dilip Kumar, Shammi Kapoor, Dharam or AB? And what about the scenario of Rafisahab singing for the current hottest young actor of Bollywood (I don’t know who it is)? Perfectly acceptable, right? And what about Ghantasalaji etc. singing for this particular dude?
Dear Akashji:
I didn’t say Ghantasalaji is not loved in Kerala and Tamilnadu, did I? I said he’s not loved much (as Rafi sahab’s being loved). I’m well-aware that this great singer has a lot of followers (myself included) in these parts of the Country. But you know what, we have Rafi musical nights in Kerala, we have Rafi-clones in dozens and Rafi sahab’s CDs/MP3s sell like anything. The only singer (from another language) who enjoys comparable following (in Kerala) is SPB sir; but then the latter (occassionally) sings in Malayalam and he’s very much active among us.
Dear Singhji and Akashji:
I have absolutely no intention to prove that Rafisahab is greater than Ghantasalaji or his voice is superior- to me that’s the case but I know it’s pretty much subjective and I wouldn’t dare say the South legend is inferior to anyone. My only intention is disprove the notion that Rafisahab’s greater fame/ acceptance is solely on account of the fact that he sang in the National language. His voice type/character/texture also has a lot to do with it (among several other factors).
Dear Fans,
i think Anil Cherian have a point… If you ask the best of most popular south indian playback singers like PBS,SPB,KYJ,P Susheela and even S Janaki they simply adore Rafi sahab than any hindi film singer..
1461 – dat ji.
Rafi ji’s contribution is indeed marvellous and I am in agreement with your views. Nevertheless, ghantasala too was equally well matched for songs of different types in different sequences for different actors at the same time. There are scores of songs of ghantasala in this range and also in all type of situations and repertoires, including western and hindusthani. However, I do not wish to further elaborate on this aspect. You may pl. share further knowledge with some ghantasala lover in this regard.
Dear friends,
I have been travelling for some time, so haven’t been able to post on a regular basis. But I did go through Anil Cherian’s comments and I whole-heartedly agree with what he has said. A year or so ago he had made another observation that if anyone in the sports world can be compared to rafi saab, it’s gary sobers. That inference is not a difficult one to make for those who have followed both cricket and hfm, but it’s a very accurate one. I’ll comment on this later when I have more time.
But the most recent observation that Anil Cherian has made, that rafi’s is a universal voice, is a profound one. I have felt this for the last twenty years when I got more and more exposed to world music. First let’s talk about India. Malayalis love Yesudas and Rafi, Telugus love ghantasala and rafi, Tamils and Telugus love SPB/hariharan and rafi, bengalis love manna/hemant/kishore and rafi, marathis love suresh wadkar/mahendra kapoor and rafi; folks who like bhajans love anup jalota and rafi, people who like bhangra love balbir and rafi. Across the border, mehdi hassan fans talk about their idol and rafi, qawaali lovers talk about nusrat fateh ali khan and rafi; the list is endless.
But the more interesting thing is how rafiana is slowly invading the west. A decade or so ago, a london-based organisation called the Asian Dub Foundation released a record called “rafi’s revenge” in which they compared rafi with elvis. Of course, with the “jan pehchan” song replayed in ghost world, the western audiences are getting more familiar with the phenomenon. The beatles fans are now listening to the beatles tune that sj lifted for janwar and they keep wondering how someone from India — who incidentally barely knew English — was so adept at rock ‘n roll.
From Kanyakumari to Kashmir, from Surat to Shillong, from the the Palk Straits to peshawar, rafi saab, yours is the universal voice!
1460 – satyansh ji – your post addressed to anil ji
Thanks for your post. Indeed your comment on siva sankari song by ghantasala and analysis by Mr. Khan in this forum is perfect.
Anil ji, Post 1462 and others
I agree that majority of people love rafi ji’s voice. How can you say ghantasala is not loved in kerala or tamilnadu. Just see kerala no.1 site on jayachandran, you will know what is what. Moreover, there are many people who did not like rafi ji’s voice (for instance in this forum only) too, or other singer’s voices (depending upon their subjective tastes), but what i wanted to convey that, as I had already conveyed ealier, that majority of the population and musicians whoever have heard rafi as well as ghantasala have been inspired by their talents and voices. This majority factor is certainly to lesser degree with reference to other singers including k j yesudas.
Ref: Post# 140.
With due respects…
I don’t suppose I have to elaborate any further. May be you could listen to, say, Elvis and Rafi sahab alternately and repeat the exercise with Elvis and Ghantasalaji and may be you’d find for yourself which voices are of similar ‘type’. If you think that there is no such thing as ‘voice type’ or that classification of voices are ‘subjective’ or ‘vague’, it’s perfectly okay with me. And I’d be happy to learn from you why Rafisahab is loved so much in Kerala and Tamilnadu while Ghantasalaji is not… it can’t be the language, obviously, for Hindi is not a spoken language in these states.
And I don’t see what is the big fuss about the ‘comparison’ thing? What I wanted to say, in the nutshell, is that the young boy who’s won VOI contest may be compared to Rafisahab in terms of diction or note-perfection but not in terms of vocal quality or range of expressions and that a big-time exponent of Carnatic classical music (Ghantasalaji) may not be compared to a Hindustani light music singer (Rafisahab) in terms of mastery in hard-core classical stuff. I also wanted to say the one shouldn’t confuse ‘comparison’ with ‘judgement’ and ‘stating who’s better’.
I think there is a lot of subjectivity in Anil’s claim that Rafi’s voice is a “universal” voice. But there is one thing that I agree with Anil about. Rafi’s voice has multiple manifestations, unlike any other singer. I am not sure if that makes it ‘universal’, but I would love to see examples from the Ghantasala, Mukesh and Kishore world where they sound very very different across songs. And there is not an iota of subjectivity in it.
Example: In the movie ‘Ladies tailor’ Rafi sings for both the “old” and “young” Sanjeev Kumar. Here are the songs (they sound like sung by two different singers with different bass wuality)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTyd-1uRrIg (young)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9Pq06EbOaM (old)
In this song, rafi sings for two Sashi Kapoors (double role) and modulates to sound different: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK33EwjK0ds
To summarize, rafi has elements of every other singer in his voice.
-He sounds like Talat in certain songs, Manna in certain, Kishore in certain…And of course like himself. the only singer with a unique bass relatively untouched by Rafi is Mukesh.
Therefore you may or may not like Kishore, or Ghantasala. But when someone says he/she does not like Rafi, the question would be “Which voice of Rafi”? I am not sure if to call that “universal”
Mr. Anil Cherian,
With all due respect …
You say that “…One just has to be objective and the area of comparisons need be restricted to those where objectivity is possible…”. Can you elaborate on what these areas are? The comparison that you are talking about so far can only be subjective.
You are essentially proving my point when you subjectively go on to say “…I was stating my opinion that Rafisahab’s voice is the type which satisfies the crieteria that’s been set for a ‘good male voice’, globally. That voice has a property (which is not very easy to describe) that gives it a universal appeal/acceptance. One can’t say the same about some of the other famous Indian male voices. Very personally speaking, Ghantasalaji’s voice doesn’t appeal much to me…”. What criteria are you talking about? All such criteria that I have come across are subject to personal interpretations.
You keep talking about this concept of global voice. What is it? Do you seriously think it is objective? I have met numerous people from around the globe most of whom don’t like Rafi’s or numerous other Indian voices. That does not mean anything. Mr. Akash is absolutely right in that it’s not upto us to decide “which voice is universally recognised and which is not”. Please don’t make things up just to prove a point.
I read a post by Mr. Khan who posted an excerpt on the song “Siva Sankari” by Ghantasala. Mr. Khan’s analysis was well constructed. He did not build up false notions of range and global voice and then call it an objective analysis. I don’t mean to be rude, but please evaluate your own statements and if you think I have made an error, I shall stand corrected.
Anil ji,
Fine, subjective opinions differ, no issues – So majority opinions have to be taken into consideration, What I have stated is held by majority of musicians, singers and personalities. Regarding other issues, as you rightly said, let us not discuss here as I too agree this is not the right platform. Why don’t we meet at Kerala No. 1 site of Jayachandran (Type this in google and you will get the site) for discussion on south indian greats. Rafi lovers are also pl. welcome to kerala site for their valuable contributions.
Dear Singhji:
Here’s a ’78 song by KJY faturing a young Kamal Haasan with Zarina Wahab:
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=oRx2GI5XHOU
The song has been composed by Salilda and I particularly like the orchestration. Could someone inform if this tune is there in HFM or Bengali film music?
Please listen to a more mature-voiced KJY (’87) in a song featuring National award winning artists- Mohan lal and Shobhana:
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=Or_c0IKP5M4
Hope you like the songs
Akashji:
Thank you for the response to my post. I agree with you in nearly all the points raised by you. However I think I’ll need to clarify certain things.
#1. This is about comparing V judging. I totally agree with you that it’s simply impossible for us (me, anyway) to ‘judge’ or ‘grade’ great artists or art forms. But we can discuss, analyse and off course ‘compare’. Comparison is not the same as passing a verdict based on all facts available. I personally feel there’s no harm in Rafi-KK comparison or Rafi-Ghantasala comparison. One just has to be objective and the area of comparisons need be restricted to those where objectivity is possible. For instance, one can very well compare the jovial Rafisahab (of chakke pe chakka….. etc.) to jovial KK (of zindagi ek safar…. etc.). This particular comparison doesn’t have to enter into territories like voice quality, vocal range etc., rather it can confine itself to how these two artists have done justice to that particular song picturisation. I hope I’m making myself clear.
#2. This is about ‘global’ voice. I wasn’t trying to say that Rafisahab’s is a ‘globally heard and recognised voice’-which it is but it’s not what I was trying to say. Rather I was stating my opinion that Rafisahab’s voice is the type which satisfies the crieteria that’s been set for a ‘good male voice’, globally. That voice has a property (which is not very easy to describe) that gives it a universal appeal/acceptance. One can’t say the same about some of the other famous Indian male voices. Very personally speaking, Ghantasalaji’s voice doesn’t appeal much to me (though I admire his huge talent and all round-capability) and I think I’m not alone in this, here. This (great) singer has a voice which is typically South Indian and I believe I’d fallen in love with it had I not been introduced to Rafisahab, KJY and some other singers (majorly English ones). Speaking for myself again, I consider KK’s voice as pretty much ‘North-East Indian’, a major reason why it’s not (relatively) much loved in the South (most of his fans in the South are more in love with his peppy songs than the voice).
#3. This is about Yesudas sir’s voice. To me, that voice is right up there- as the only one which is comparable to Rafisahab’s- and Jayachandran sir is well-behind. I also have met and discussed with music buffs who think Jayachandran sir is superior. However most of these people rate the latter ahead because of a ‘cleaner’ (according to them) voice (and not a better voice) and the superior expressions (‘bhava’). Anyway I wouldn’t want to venture much into those territories, this I don’t think is the right platform.
Anil ji – 1451
Good number by Sri KJY. Why don’t you post some excellent and melodious numbers of KJY from 70’s and 80’s for hearing by true music lovers (personally for me).
further, anil ji, rafi ji’s voice was excellently fine than k j yesudas. I had mentioned earlier, i have many recordings of k j y, he is only musically fine and not that great voice wise . Even, some of my malayalam friends even acknowledge jayachandran as greater than k j y (See kerala no. 1 site on jayachandran) To further say, even p b srinivas and jayachandran too possessed great talents like k j y . But none disputes when it comes to rafi or ghantasala. and personally to me also like many others rafi as well as ghantasala stand apart & unique from others.
Anil ji, – contd. from my previous message
You cannot thus compare Mahatma Gandhi (Who was the great personality for creation of independent india) and Tanguturi prakasam (Who was the great personality for creation of Andhra State) Both personalities – there goal was same – But their placement and environment had unearthed their talents in their respective areas. The zeal, contribution and talent degree wise and percentage wise from their own environment is similar, if you carefully observe. Still, gandhi is globally recognised but not tanguturi. (YOu cannot argue that there are many regional personalities like tanguturi – true but tanguturi was altogether unique in his contribution and beyond comparison.) Hope you got what I wanted to convey.
Anil cheriyan ji,
There is no doubt that rafi saab’s voice is universally recognised voice. But your question : whether other great voices (for instance, ghantasala ji – as you stated) are universal, it can be proved only if the universe or global population hears voice of ghantasala. YOu have to make hear them ghantasala’s voice, then you have to see what will be the response. Without that you and I cannot decide which voice is universally recognised and which is not. As many have said, rafi saab by virtue of his association at the national scene has become famous without much difficulty and accordingly, his vast fame and popularity is immense and the same cannot be the case with ghantasala (despite his extraordinary gifted talent) , since his fame and popularity was restricted only to south india. So regarding your question of recognition for universal voice, you and I cannot decide on that, rather it should be left to the universe which can decide only after hearing such voice.
I can tell you one point here, recently I had heard lata ji singing one song in telugu film, some old number, frankly and honestly speaking, as compared to her hindi numbers, to me lata ji did not sound anything great in the telugu number. Rather it was a very feeble rendering in telugu. I was thinking whether is this lata ji’s voice. See as somebody was mentioning, here the linguistic and stream factor plays an important role. Lata ji’s voice is universally recognised voice, but see place her telugu number, no body will accept her as an extraordinary singer if you hear her telugu number. What do you say Anil ji. Thus, my contention is : taking only the hindi language and its singers, which is the only language which is famous in India for base as deciding the universal voices, I think it should be relooked. How can you ignore other languages of India. There is no dispute about greatness of rafi ji or lata ji vis-a-vis their recognition of voices globally, but taking into account only the famous langauage and deciding about universal voices, I think personally, it should not be the case. There may be other great talents too.
And regarding your view on agreeing for comparisons, i am of the firm view that artistic talents are really very difficult to judge, if you put up the same for comparison. Let us assume one example, I have been hearing these days even 4 to 5 years children singing some filmy songs perfectly with amazing presentation skills. Would you accept that even the greats ghantasala or rafi or other have not been able to sing at the age of 4 or 5 years similar to these children. In such case who is great whether these children or our singers. See the problem if you decide on comparison between the artistic talent. You put up these children to comparison and you will yourself acknowledge the children as great specially the talents they possess at such age. So if you want to still really compare, the stream, environment and situational factors have to be studied, without which comparison makes no sense. What my intention is artistic talents are gifted talents and putting up the same for comparison is not feasible. Each established and accomplished artist has his own greatness and area of specialisation.
Post 1446 : REVELENCE IS THE NAME OF THE GAME herein and in h.f.m which is the most popular medium . Mohd Rafi stands head and shoulders high not only in playback singing but also in his personal conduct of being modest and helpful to the needy.
a singer and a personaliy of mohd rafi’s stature can only be dreamt of folks for it will never happen ever again and repeated.
binu nair
Today is the 68th birthday of the great singer K.J.Yesudas sir. Here’s a song from the mid-80s (tuned by Raviji).
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=mrdvQ3Fu-XI