True Voice – Mohd Rafi
The following article was brought to my notice when Sharad posted it on MAS. The article has been trimmed down a bit keeping afloat Rafi details. However, anyone interested can go visit the source at http://tfmpage.com/forum/4980.6302.04.57.19.html
I am Swaminatha Iyer and I am 78 years old. I hail from Tiruchi and I am a part of music associations in Tiruchi, M’as as well as in West Bengal and Maharashtra.
I think it is wrong to condemn music or artists on either side of Vindhyas. Our Indian music is one of the few which has not been cleaned off by the western music though there has always been a influence. It speaks a lot of the richness of our music. Sometime back director of MTV had said that MTV westernized the music wherever it went but in India , MTV had to be Indianized for it to be accepted. A lot of this credit goes to the Indian film music.
I have been fortunate to have close personal association with Rafi, Sirkali, TMS, Dr. BMK, Kishore, SPB & KJY, PS, Mannadey and the one and only Lata Mangeshkar.
Comparisons are bound to come, but almost every artist or I have met considers Lata to be beyond comparison. Her talents are beyond anyone’s reach. Even Sirkazi used to talk of her singing like a die-hard fan as do countless others.
Now coming to the Rafi-SPB discussion. It might be difficult to convince an South Indian to believe Rafi is the better and at the same time Rafi crowd will never believe any other male singer comes anywhere nearer. There is one more mobile crowd, which is well conversant with Hindi and some south Indian language. Majority of them tilt to either Rafi or Kishore.
During one of my stays in M’as I had stayed with SPB. While talking of true voices he said, I don’t feel like half a singer when listening to Rafi. True voice is not a tech term but many in circle use it. Perfect example would be lata, but to understand consider our own PS who within her range is superb. People who do not have such true voices can never do justice to original. They generally underplay many parts of the song or fake it with bass/superficial singing. True voices make people like Sirkazi, Nusrat Fateh Ali khan, Lata… Inimitable. However since Sirkazi and Nusrat did not have the filmy voices their “real” following is limited to their local arena.
In addition to the true voice if the singer has a very good voice then in “most” cases he/she can better songs of others. It is this combination which makes Rafi stand out among the other male singers. There are many here who seem to have mistaken notions on a good bass and also on high pitch.
Bryan Adams does not require a monster bass in “Summer of 69” to sound real manly. It is the punch which gives that feel and that is decided only by the comfort level in most ranges (that is by what your throat can support). This you CAN never disguise with bass. Since people have talked about lack of manly voice viz. a viz. Rafi it was necessary to bring this point out. I have had the fortune of listening to most singers in studio and some times without a mike, practicing with MD’s.When Lata or Rafi do, the level is so high that people hesitate to even hum. It felt silly to sing in their presence (and it feels silly when someone says his voice isn’t manly).
In RD’s tribute when SPB sang “Aaja Aaja mein hoon” or “Chaand mera dil” it sounded only sweet and lacked punch if you compare with Rafi’s original.
Yesu once told me God has been partial to Rafi. He said “god gift term anavasyamaa romba common aa ippo use aardu”.. but idu Rafi kee thaan 100% porundu”. This person could sing “as intricately as a lady without sounding thin”, “cover any mood”, “versatility odey perfect example Rafi”. Yesu said most important is the comfort level over ranges which makes you feel God has been partial to Rafi. (But Of course in Rafi’s early career (1950’s) the voice was relatively feeble).
To people exposed to Rafi’s talent, these or any amount of praise can only seem less. I just wish he was alive and you people could get a live chance to hear him. Probably you can get hold of the DD album for the Geet Gaata Chal series where the first four episodes were dedicated to Rafi. Rafi is on camera singing “O Duniya Ke Rakwaaley” and many other songs. If you see and hear the last part you will realize why SPB said “impossible”. I think particularly those people who have talked about scales w.r.t Rafi should see this album. Its a known fact in industry that Rafi ruled high pitch and there is no male singer better in switching notes so easily. There are artists who can go beyond but then they sound strained or they don’t have pleasant voices when they venture into those territories.
Many singers of today are his compulsive followers. But they end up inheriting only part of his quality. Md. Aziz ended up with a sad voice. Mahendra Kapoor with a thick nasal voice. Anwar with a nasal voice. Sonu Nigam with a feminine voice. Rafi neither had a soft voice nor a heavy (bass) voice he had a good voice. Importantly did not strain at high notes, and voice if at all only became better at higher notes. If you see him singing it will remind you of Janaki. However diff the song is or the note is he will be smiling and singing. It is unthinkable that he cannot sing something.
There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo” song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect. There are lot of other songs of SPB where this great singer has played with songs in total control. You will find most south Indian singers who have had a good exposure say that it is beneficial to learn Hindustani as it gives better breath control and improves expression.
Rafi was not only able to glide over a song, the important thing was that he could express each word/sound when singing. It is one thing to hold your breath, start and reach a crescendo (high note), as like in “Shankara”, “Anbey (Yennai kaan villaye)” it is different ballgame if you have to do it from low notes or suddenly switch notes. With practice the former can be done, latter requires a special gift. Rafi had a natural ability to do the latter. In “Tum joh mil gaye ho” there is such a transition in the “karwaan mil gaya” part. I have never seen anyone do justice to most of his songs in my life time. In “parda hai parda” quawaali the similar part is “kar doon to, Akbar mera naam”. In fact most of his songs will have these specialty as it was his natural ability to sing freely in a wide range at the same time giving that extra expression.
Whereas SPB takes us to heavens with “Idu oru pon maali”,”Ilaya nila” “bisiladarenu”(kannada), when he sings Rafi’s song it lacks the punch or expression, though it has the bass. But at least most agree that SPB does some justice to original, whereas most others murder the original.
One trivial point I would like to add is that singing in Hindi is harder. There are more “JHA”,”CHA”,”HA”,”THA”, “KHA”,”JA”,”FA”. These take away the breath faster. The more expressive you are the more air you are using up. Just singing from Nabhi will not help, your throat also needs to do a lot, for singing in Hindi, Bengali etc. SPB makes you fall in love with his south Indian songs but same cannot be said about his Hindi songs. If you just glide through words having these sounds, you will never be expressive. Doing this as well as reaching high notes is not easy. Rafi had this gift and that’s why it is difficult to imagine anyone else in his shoes. Song “Chalkaaye jaam” has so much expression that it is unthinkable how anyone can sing it. When Rafi switches to a high note with “Mitwaa” in the song “Chaahunga mein tughey” you cannot replicate it with bass. Most others will sound as if they are shouting in such cases. That man’s throat had the ability to freely sing at such levels.
Versatility is not just the ability to sing in various styles, more important is how good you are singing in those styles. You have lot of Ghazal singers today but when Rafi sings a Ghazal you will sit up and take notice. You don’t have to be part of the Ghazal listeners crowd. This is one important aspect. Whatever style you sing you should be able to pull the common man to listen and not just a particular crowd. Pick “parda hai parda” or any qawalli and it will stand tall among other qawalli’s.
Variety is amazing :
songs of Guru Dutt’s Khagaz key phool or songs like abhi naa jao chod key, Aaja teri yaad aayi, Aaj kal mein dhal gaya, Aaj kal terey merey pyaar, Aasmaan sey aaya farishta, Dil ney pyaar kiya hai, Deewana mujh saa nahi, Din dhal jaaye, Duniya paagal hai, Jaane walon jara, Dil joh na kaha saka, Dil key jharokon mein, Dil kaa bhavar, Chalkey teri aakkhon sey, Kar chaley hum fida, khilona jaan kar tum, Woh jab yaad aay, Woh hain jara khafa, Vaadian mera daaman, Pathar key sanam, Chaand mera dil, Main zindagi kaa saath, Mainey poocha chaand sey, sun sun jaalima, Koi jab raah na paay, hum to chaley pardes, badan pey sitaarey, laal chadi maidaan, Tum jo mil gaye, O meri shaahey, Sau baar janam lengey, Tum mujhey yoon bhula, Tumney mujhey dekha, Terey merey sapney, Tumny pukaara hum chaley aay
Name a situation/mood and Rafi’s song will be there on the top.
Swami
dear anil,
i enjoyed listening to the songs you shared with me. thanks. i enjoyed the velvet smooth voice of the various singers. velvet smooth voice & expressing emotions from the heart are qualities that i enjoy very much. these are the qualities that rafi exemplified. that is why he is my favorite. i do not like rafi just because he’s rafi (although that’s very easy to do). similarly, when other singers display these traits i.e. kishore kumar in “mere mehboob qayamat hogi” i enjoy listening to them too.
It is really surprising to see people fight over great singers. It should be obvious that everyone has their strengths. Music directors pick the singer that suits a particular song best. They obviously know better than most of us. One of the singers might be able to sing a particular song more appealing to “majority of the people” that does not mean the other singer is in any way “inferior”. If you think analytically Rafi has the “sweetest” voice of the lot period. He can render classical songs better than most classical singers (mind you without any formal training like ghantasala). As for kishore and not being able to compare to ghantasala or rafi again think why music directors pick one vs the other its the voise that suits the situation and the song and the songs he sang dont need our vote of confidence. We can pick a bunch of kishores song that would not sound as appealing if rendered by rafi or ghantasala and vice versa… So many wonderful melodies from these singers just listen and enjoy them without thinking if someone else can sing it better.
Cheers…
Dear Mr Anil Cherian, thanks your posts 2046 & 2047. I also have heard about the criticism on KJY -it is really a difficult task to be successful and popular in both Clasical music and film music as both of them have different styles. KJ Jesudass has the unique distinction of having been successful in both. Whatever critics may say, in my humble opinion, it all matters how a song/melody reaches one’s heart and not primarily the ears.
That is why Rafi sahab is so much liked as his songs reach your heart. Same is the case with KJY-his Harivarasanam (incidentally this is my caller tune!!) is, I believe , played at Sabarimala temple before closing the shrine every night. Such is the impact when Rafi /KJY sing that it goes into your soul.
Dear Siva sir,
Thanks for the kind words. Brahmanandan was a good singer, but couldn’t really make his presence felt because of KJY and PJ. It is not that the two more established singers hindered Brahmanandan’s growth, rather it is that Malayalam film industry was too small to accomodate more than two male singers. Another factor which went against him was that he wasn’t too consistent. He was very good at his best but he wasn’t always at his best. Some of his renditions are rather ordinary.
I will post some more KJY songs here and will mail to you.
Vithalji,
It is not that Yesudas has many critics even among classical musicians, rather it is that he has critics only among classical musicians. I’d try my best to answer why it is so. The Indian classical music (both Karnatic and Hindustani) trains or goads their wards to develop a textured (or rasping) voice. KJY (like Rafi) has a voice which is almost an antithesis of the kind of voice that an orthodox classical guru would approve as a good male singing voice. His voice is silky (Rafisque), a bit like a western tenor voice. The criticism primarly stems from this voice property. Another reason is his style- he’s being accused of being too filmy while rendering classical songs and too classical when rendering film songs. However it has to be mentioned that most of his critics are not big names in the music field; infact he has many admirers among classical masters (similar to Rafi again). I personally feel that much of the criticism doesn’t have much musical grounds, rather it is just what I call ‘class syndrome’- the tendency (of the ‘elite’) to belittle someone who’s good at many things and popular with a wide range of art followers.
Speaking of Jayachandran, only a small portion of the Keralites consider him to be at par/ better than KJY. KJY is ahead not only from the popularity perpective but from a musical one too. Jayachandran has a ‘clean’ voice (cleaner than KJY’s according to hard core Jayachandran fans) and emotes very well in his songs. He can express romance and exuberence very well. But that doesn’t make him equal to KJY who’s such a towering figure in Kerala.
Dear Mr Anil Cherian-thanks a lot for introducing me to a great voice, which I had never heard before-Brahmandan. Nice song a silky voice-almost reminds one of KJY but has a slightly different texture.
Though I am from South (Tamil Nadu), I have never heard about this singer. Really music is an ocean and one lifetime is not enough to go into its depth and discover the pearls hidden!!
Both of us have a common idol/ idols–Rafi and Das anna(KJY). Keep writing and once again thanks for this post. btw , pramadavanam is one of the few non hindi and non tamil songs that I have in my laptop and keep listening to it quite often. I would like to collect more KJY’s malayalam songs and if you can write to me on “sivanandam_p@yahoo.com” , it would be great!
Siva
Anil, 2042
I have seen in many of your posts, here and elsewhere, you specifically mentioning many times that K J Yesudas has lot of critics even among classical musicians. Have you analysed why this is so ? To my knowledge, no such remark ever exists for ghantasala (even by error), even the great balamuralikrishna and yesudas himself (both well trained in classical music) are admirers of ghantasala.
Next, Sirkazhi govindarajan, and P jayachandran are also revered singers and I have seen many claiming the latter as the greatest singer in malayalam, though I personally feel on popularity basis K J Y has got an edge. You should put a light on this fact.
You had stated when someone finds…. voice as melodious than ….. Each has his own likes and preferences. In my view, in such cases the views of qualified greats assume importance, which have been discussed many times.
Mohd Rafi only be compare with mohd Rafi…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R6joNCpBh0&feature=related
jest listen this song i am not speaking about mohd rafi songs of 1960’s but from 1970’s from Vinod Mehra’s debut movie and we all know Vinod Mehra one of few actors in 1970’s used mohd rafi voice but most of us never speak about that
Common_man,
Here’s a superb song from a singer you like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCmsZbarARE
I would like to describe the ensuing scene in this movie. The old man (with the long hair) applauds the hero for his voice. The hero responds that there are many critics of his voice who find his voice ‘too oily’ to which the old man (who himself is a classical musician) replies that the ‘oily’ voice is any day better than a voice that resembles a ‘rough rock’. I believe the makers of the movie (staunch Yesudas fans) were taking a dig at the Yesudas critics.
The velvet voice that appeals to many (like you and me) does have its critics; especially among the fans of hard-core Indian (both KCM and HCM) classical music fans. For people like us it might come as a surprise, but that’s how things are. When someone finds the Ghantasala voice more melodious than the Rafi voice or the Yesudas voice, it is a matter of preference, it cannot be helped.
BTW, the two songs I had linked in ‘the other’ site are from two different singers ( I suppose you missed that). The first one was KJY and the second a singer (famous in South India) named Jayachandran. I am linking another Jayachandran song for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VniYtOVVRmM
Here is another Malayalam singer (who’s no more) named Brahmanandan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S8PPMi9UV4
Tell me what you think of this voice.
Dear rafi lovers,
Please continue voting for rafi ji at
http://www.whopopular.com/India/Musicians
The true Indian music can be seen from its music lover in the above site – Indian musicians – The top 10 in the above list – an equal combination from north and south – amazing. Mohd rafi saab is way above in terms of votes, even the next competitors are way behind, illayaraja and A R Rehman. Kishore kumar is at 5th position and lata mangeshkar is at 9th (well done lata fans – she has been remarkably voted to be in the top 10)
From the south – great thing for ghantasala lovers, he is in 6th position – top in terms of votes among southern singers followed by K J Yesudas.
Mohd rafi, kishore kumar and ghantasala from the above list – really commendable. The voting status confirms that these artists popularity continues to hold sway of millions of music lovers even after their passing away from this world “decades back”
Vitthal ji,
The links you have provided are simply “awesome” – I agree with priya sanyal ji – it is simply magical singing by the melodious ghantasala.
Priya sanyal ji,
Thanks for your views.
You are well aware of the hindusthani ustads singing ragas in hindusthani style of singing, for instance, madhuban me radhika.
Now hear this hindusthani shade composition without compromising the carnatic style effect, with fast paced ragas from ghantasala
http://www.dishant.com/jukebox.php?songid=34638
I was given to understand by somebody that madhuban me radhika and this song are composed in similar ragas ( I am not an expert in music)
Vitthal ji reading ur posts, to me is like pleasent tour of carnatic music in the light of Ghantashalaji`s magical singing!
Lets expand with melody to be infinite, thanx again for sharing these gems and also for writing here!
regards n best wishes!
2034 – Priya sanyal ji
Thanks a lot for your post. I really appreciate your true love and sense for everlasting music. What you have said is “absolutely” true. My appreciations for your other posts as well. I accept your views.
On similar lines of my post 2033, For your listening, here are another two links – first is in pure romantic genre and second is in classical genre
http://www.chitramala.com/audio-songs/pop_new.php?sid=6924&wid=974
http://www.chitramala.com/audio-songs/pop_new.php?sid=6896&wid=970
one classical jugalbandi of Rafi sahab with??? … Baat chalat… more Ram.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9e0fd_baat-chalat-nayee-rani-rupmati-1957_shortfilms
With Rafi sahab`s classicals whats an extraordinary part is, that the person who don`t understand or listen classical enjoy it….and as lataji says, those who don`t understand music even that person says “wah- wah” while listening Rafi sahab`s singing!
Enjoy n adab Rafi!
Sonu Nigham, saying its not a subject to say, If I like Rafi(sahab) or not, If u don`t like him , means u don`t know music. As to muslims its namaz, to hindu its puja to him,its listening and singing Rafi sahab`s song…
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xbml8y_sonu-nigam_shortfilms
Dear friends
my regards to everybody being sportive and knowledgeable on this thread. I simply enjoy this thread and its corresponding posts. And I think this is the only article which have so many posts and different curves of discussions. There is no second thought that all the readers, writers are well versed in their respective field but what they show enthusiasm and sheer free lance reviews, counter reviews, dicussions, debates. All in all wonderful. I congratulate everyone participated on this thread.
My best regard to all
H.A.K. Walijah
Md rafi sahab,Its marvel how can u being such pak muslim(who even died in month of ramadana,even his funeral happened on jumma and also he was offerered permenent residence in Madina)
u could Understand such a elemental clearity with hindus path of worship that not even a pundit can understand….this shows purity is universal!
whenever I listen a divotional or classical song by any singer I feel divine but with Rafi saab, I feel same or more clear divinity even in worldily,or filmy songs no matter if song is ,”mujhe apni saran me le lo Ram or ye chand sa roshan chehra, or mere dost kissa ye kya ho gya”..
I don`t feel any difference now with any of Rafi`s song.
. Let me share 3 songs, one most of us have listened its Shloka of Ramayana in Rafi sahab`s voice, no where he tried to make it classical coated but everywhere ,we can feel immense bhakti and a feeling of early morning melody.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TC2nF6xxQqk
Next song is a group of song, Rafi sahab singing mahbharta and make it so visual that we forget that we r merely listening it, when take name of krishna his emotion is different, when he say pandav he is different, with duryodhana he is entirly differel\nt…
http://www.esnips.com/web/pratyanubhutamdesadigantaraih
now third song, on Bhagwan Ram,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ING_SNAUkHY
please, never miss, jai Raam, jai Ram, jai Jai raam in Rafi sahab`s earning calling of God, this call would never leave u…..
Same divinity is every where, few person out of ignorance say its me other out of wisdom say its all yours……Rafi sahab is one who has completly dedicated every words of his to God, it not me who is saying this but whoever know Rafi know this!!!
============================================
Vitthal ji , I really appriciate ur post 2033.Thanks,thanks, thanks!!!!
That only defines that Truth is infinite and what ghantashalaji is, words can never define. I`ve always thought I didn`t know ghantashalaji and only came to know him via this unfortunate discussion of comparisions but I find out I`ve already listened Ghantashalji in classical numbers and few divotional songs, that were simply amazing…
Now, I find out sun like ghantashala ji can never be eclipsed. Thanx for sharing and reminding of this golden voice!
I hope to see such sharings and links by you!
==================================
Haldar ji, Priya sanyal ji, Common man ji and all my dear rafian friends.
Just for sharing great melodious songs. Let us forget about comparison and exchange great songs and let us enjoy melodious music.
Kindly listen to this song of ghantasala and give your views. A solo melody.
http://www.chitramala.com/audio-songs/pop_new.php?sid=8205&wid=1228
Haldar ji, 2020 – My concluding remarks.
Thanks for your views. By far an appreciative and nice post. I think singh ji and I were trying to air similar views and you have echoed the same. Thanks for the same.
Believe me, I am myself a rafi fan. The magic voice of rafi is peerless in HFM, the very fact rafi has sung in the music direction of around 250 music directors itself confirms the skills of rafi in various musical genres and such record is a great feat, and many other such things, which makes rafi an unparalleled singer.
Similarly, what makes andhra pradesh think about ghantasala as the greatest is that he is perhaps the only artist who was a simultaneous classical musician, playback singer and a music director – simultaneously accomplished and versatile in all the 3 areas, which made him associate with numerous specialised genres (both hindusthani and carnatic) which have no peers, this makes him class apart.
Sure, both were the pillars of indian playback singing.
It was a nice interaction with you Haldar ji. We have spent some nice time in musical discussions.
Thanks a lot lot again.
With Best musical regards, my dear friend,
Vitthal.
“the classical genre. Ghantasala definitely has an edge there.”
“A singer of ghantasala’s class will definitely have an edge over rafi in different genres”
“At the same time, Rafi will have an edge over him in other genres.”
i agree completely!
these are the three points i’ve been making repeatedly at the kishore site. but as soon as i talk about the last one…some fans say my conclusions are in poor taste or ignorant of facts or sense illogical. i don’t mind the criticism as i have a thick skin but it is funny 😛
“do not need to address me so respectfully because when someone does that, I get a little nervous.”
me too 😀
post 2019
Vitthal ji, please be assured that I don’t have a hotline with the moderator for this site. I couldn’t have responded to your post unless I had seen it.
I wasn’t sure of the question that you were constantly referring to, so I went back to your earlier post and read it carefully. If I am not mistaken, you are talking about the classical genre. Ghantasala definitely has an edge there. But I’ll tell you something, my friend. I cannot vouch 100% that he would have had a greater “impact” than rafi in “madhuban mein radhika”. Again, this is my personal opinion.
A singer of ghantasala’s class will definitely have an edge over rafi in different genres (by the way, please tell your friends they shouldn’t be using the word “gharana” in the playback context because it has a totally different meaning). At the same time, Rafi will have an edge over him in other genres. If you don’t accept that, that’s fine with me. I could have, if I had wanted to, gone through multiple such genres, but I’d request you again not to unnecessarily prolong this debate.
If your question is related to the superiority of Telugu music in general, I cannot answer that because I don’t know a whole lot about Telugu music. But calling this an “established fact” is being presumptuous. Music has multiple forms and calling one style of music the best when we don’t even know much about the different forms of music across the country, let alone across the world, is definitely presenting a bigoted, parochial view.
Vitthal ji, I’ve responded to your points as well as I could. In closing, let me tell you that you cannot sway my mind just as I cannot yours, but as long as we keep appreciating good music, that’s great. Also, we tend to learn from one another. The thing that I liked about your posts is that you’ve not arrived at broad, sweeping generalisations as others have done. Those people have their own agendas and there is no point in countering their bigoted, self-perceived views.
If you still have questions on rafi’s output in different moods/styles, I’d be happy to respond to those without getting into comparison with southern greats.
Best regards,
P. Haldar
“SUCH A GREAT SINGER LIKE GHAntshala you are comparing with kishore kumar.”
as a kishore kumar fan myself, i am hurt that you are hurt with kk – ghantasala comparison 🙂
“the songs which you have mentioned of kishore ghantshala ji can sing it very easily.”
then there’s little more discuss 🙂
ghantasala could have technically sung those songs with ease but i’m not sure if he would have captured the mood or added the elements like kishore kumar. nevertheless, if you’d still like the ghantasala version better than though i disagree i respect that. we have these things happen with “tum bin jaaon kahan”. the two versions are in different moods so it’s tough to compare but kishore adds yodelling and it just so happens that the composition benefits immensely from it (unlike a compensation such as “ab kya misaal doon”). this is so even though rafi sings his romantic version with ease and very well. but as mr haldar pointed out, rafi is very competitive even in the y dimension where kishore rules. i dont think the margin would be nearly as competitive with ghantasala’s version of a kk song from the y dimension but again if you disagree than i can respect for your liking for ghantasala.
“next time before writing a post think 1000 times and then write something .”
come on yaar – lighten up. this is not a phd dissertation but a place for a light, fun discussion of our hobbies. you’re taking it way too seriously besides, counting to 1000 is hard 😛
🙂 rafi – ghantasla discussion not duets
“I am surprised, despite giving such a lengthy view on telugu industry, you have diluted the points to prove your point.”
He simply made a point that Ghantasala is not superior to other singers in every single regard. Nothing wrong with that.
“instead of carrying decent discussion as being put up by vitthal ji”
what is indecent about pointing a genre where kishore excels? is it indecent because it’s not the barrage of statements flattering ghantasala that you are used to?
I know you will not have answers for vitthal ji’s post in 1991 and you are deliberately avoiding and have
“started bullying tactics”
this is what i mean by “oversensitivity”. there was no such thing. you just don’t have a tolerance for a viewpoint or course of discussion that is different from what you like. a while back, i was talking about rafi – kishore and a kk fan started talking about yodelling. i entertained the discussion even though i personally don’t care for it. in doing so we got to understand the different values. i never felt that the kk fan was bullying by focusing on yodelling! it seems to me that you don’t hold value for rock n roll – which is fine. but if someone wishes to point out this as an genre that they value and ghantasala is not the absolute best – i don’t see why it should be offensive.
“(which shows insecurity as rafian)”
you’re speculating beyond reason.
“I am sorry”
only be sorry if you mean it. otherwise spare me the fake formality.
“this may lead to mud slinging again as happened earlier.”
i hope not but your oversensitivity and inability to appreciate different aspects of music or musical discussion i.e. kishore kumar’s strength for pop music…is primarily responsible
“I do not want to further participate unless the discussions continue in a decent way.”
sure! i wish you had followed this advice earlier when everyone said they did not want to get into ghantasala – rafi duets. if you just like to hear the same arguments in praise of ghantasala (because in those cases the subjects pertain to areas where ghantasala does indeed remain supreme) – then please avoid comparing ghantasala to rafi because subjects, genres and topics will be brought up which raise points where ghantasala is the best and this will be different from what you’re used to and you’ll magically find offensive. there’s a big difference between civil disagreement and bickering. civil disagreement requires tolerance for different viewpoints or points of discourse which you are clearly not interested in.
i write this post not in favor or disfavor of any particular individual but for the sake of the entire discussion.
contd… previous post last line,
our lord (in your own words) , who made pack the bags of all others as long as he was alive.
Haldar ji – your post 2007 – A bit humorous
Might be he might have packed his bags if such situation had come, as it already happened once, in telugu – that packing has happened. But no such situation can be contemplated for our lord ( in your own words.)
Contd… haldar ji to my previous 2 posts on rafi, kishore vs. ghantasala, and your doubts in your earlier posts
Due to such great qualities of carnatic music and the technicalities of the southern industry, many southern talents could shine easily in hindi. On the contrary, how many from hindi have shined in the south, Haldar ji. Even if they had tried, they would have literally failed due to the technicalities of the southern environment. Now please do not tell hindi talents have no necessity to go to southern industry. Rafi had tried in telugu, but what happened everybody knows. Rafi could gain entry in telugu only because NTR and ghantasala had a dispute, otherwise there is no room for rafi there. Rafi’s voice did not suit in any way for NTR as well, as ghantasala’s voice suited. (you were asking whether ghantasala’s voice can suit to hindi actors. Biswajit had acted in a telugu film and ghantasala’s voice exactly suited him) Do you know this fact ? Please do not conclude that for hindi actors certain singers voice is not suitable. Unless you hear such singer in such actors voice, you cannot come to such conclusion. In hindi suvarna sundari, kuhu kuhu song, rafi’s voice did not in any way suit ANR, the hero in the film. It was a hindi song only. What would you have to say on this ? For ANR in telugu, ghantasala’s voice exactly suited him. Can you prove and show how many from hindi could enter and shine in south indian industry ? Even counting on fingers, it will be negligible.
Haldar ji, u already know how much I respect u, but let me give RAFI ji the primary(not in sense of best singer but a centre) place here at “mohd rafi dot com” above any individual whatsoever.
did Rafi sahab also sing those songs that u mentioned of kishore da, on what scale u declared this? U didn`t tell thats ur personal opinion u just declared it, so great of u! I would really told u thanks if u would have praised kishore da or would have either tell him best singer. I would have no objection but whats this the comparivtive view”
Rafi sahab once told me when I told I like kishore kumar more than him, he told me that, liking won`t do.I should learn to love and whom I like I would rather love,and I would keep on loving whoever I love, for the love is a way to realise God”…
Unfortunately comparision is language of hatred!
refering to ur post 2012, let me tell u , u can`t imagine rafi sahab in kishore kumar voice, for both had different voice. If kishore da would have sung all the song of guide, I`m sure the songs would have been a hit like his song gaata rahe, but good or bad, I don`t say of rafi sahab…one thing for sure,guide could never be what it is with divinty of Rafi sahab.
One side u say, once Rafi saab got chance in late70s with singing Rd he proved he could sing for with same magic of that of sd`s hit with rfi sahab, and also that its rafi sahab`s hit in teesri manil that made RD be counted as elite music director.
ur quote
“It is a stroke of irony that when Rafi got half a chance in HKKN, he came back with a bang”.
and on other side u say kishore da has edge over Rafi sahab in some of ealry 70s(OR..) composition or he is superior than rafi sahab in the songs that Rafi sahab didn`t get? U imagined rafi sahab singing those songs and found he couldNOT play that that well??
In a movie LP gave kishore da a sad song, “mere naseeb me aye dost”…surly kishore da sang SUPERB but how can anyone say rafi saab couldn`t sing same,unless they listen same song sung by Rafi sahab.However in same movie lp gave Rafi sahab, “ye reshmi julfe”… what A HISTORICAL SONG”reshmi julfe” become IN HINDI FILM everyone know . But if reshmi julfe” would also have given to kishore kumar then?? wouldn`t it be hit then too,yes it would have been but could it be what its with Rafi sahab….no, for rafi is Rafi…
U can not say, rafi sang all song but rafi didnot sing in kishore kumar`s voice.Rafi sahab was a singer not a person who do mimicry!
How can u deny every singer has their own personal signature, call it ghantashala ji, rafi sahab,kishore da etc. how can u see Rafi sahab in kishore kumar`s(and vice versa) signature or that Ghantashalaji. Choice is ours which signature we love most…
But art is not a mathemetical soultion with some set of rule, even there r thoushands of ways to solve single maths equation. So, its never appriciable to read when a person think an art is rendered in only one way, call it rafi sahab, kishore da or ghantashalaji etc…..
What Rafi sahab could do or how many raaga or dimensions is not limited to a particular individuals imagination and so with other singers greatness!
Haldar ji
Maan gaye ustad!
Bahot khub –
jab baat nahin ban payee to ab Kishore da ka sahara le liya.
It is an established truth that Ghatasala garu is edge over prowess on Rafi Sahab being a playback singer in films and classically proven far ahead of his contemporaries. For the proof listen to this song
_ Rasika raja taguvaram kama _ from the movie Jayabheri (1958). Here is the link..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7Zi5Cxu4Gc&feature=related
Tum ko qayil hona padega..
Agar suraj ko suraj, chand ko chand aur gulab ko gulab nahin kahoge to kya yeh sachhai badal jayegi.
Thanks
H.A.K. Walijah
contd to my previous post … haldar ji,
Y O U R P O I N T S O N K I S H O R E , R A F I V S. G H A N T A S A L A C L A R I F I E D H E R E.
Sure, as vitthal ji puts it you are replying without our posts being published, is it some technical error on our part or your posts are being published as favourites. Not so sure.
R A F I V S K I S H O R E / G H A N T A S A L A
Rafi was overtaken by kishore like a ocean wave, and rafi could not regain his earlier status after 1969, the kishore wave was so powerful that it changed the scene of hindi films from 1969. Thus, in a way kishore definitely has an edge over rafi clearly – In your own words, the prince kishore crowned himself as king of bollywood playback singing dethroning the earlier badshah of hindi playback singing. This is a fact, that is why there is some essence in many of kishore fans claims that kishore has a edge against rafi. The kishore wave factor clearly is an indicator for that and no body can dispute that. What happened to your agni astra power before this vayu astra power of kishore fans. Can you please clarify ? In contrast to this none could even come nearer to ghantasala, as long as he was there, such was his gaze and prowess in the industry, that anybody could not even try there. Ghantasala was the unsurpassed monarch of playback singing.
But despite rafi and kishore’s achievements, the achievements of ghantasala, I am again repeating here, which are unsurpassable, both rafi and kishore do not stand before that.
Ghantasala was a accomplished versatile classical musician (who used to give classical concerts along with playback singing), accomplished versatile playback singer as well as accomplished versatile music director as well. No playback singer in India, including rafi, kishore or others even come to the aforesaid simultaneous versatile talents of ghantasala.
Haldar ji,
Walijah ji was asking about which sangeet gharana in indian music does rock n rolls fit in. You have not replied that, again same story you are stating views which are not connected here. If you think rafi did great in foreign genre, just try to compare him with michael jackson’s fans and I am sure, you will receive what has to be received.
Next, kishore kumar songs – certainly a singer who can create wonders, yes, with limited training he could do wonders, but certainly when comes to depth of music, kishore is no where near ghantasala. Ghantasala can sing kishore songs with ease but I am sure kishore cannot sing many of ghantasala genres. Can kishore stand before ghantasala in terms of music ?
Surely no. Ghantasala can easily render madhuban me radhika , certainly in a better way as well, but rafi cannot render siva sankari anyway nearer to ghantasala. (even kuhu kuhu he struggled)
Next Yodelling genre and rock n roll genres, in the shankarabharanam film, there is a scene, wherein SPB states, also the great balamuralikrishna of the south states, a person proficient in carnatic music can sing any genres in the world, this I have repeated in my previous post of telugu industry, (you have conveniently ignored it haldar ji)
Carnatic music has edge over all other music forms in the world. The music is so high and deep in its technical form that an artist whosoever masters it , clearly can render other forms of music. Just, if you want to talk about true music. , please try to find out this from a hindusthani musician, and you will know the truth.
That is why rafi failed in telugu songs, but ghantasala was successful in hindusthani ragas as well similar to his carnatic ragas. Now could you get it, I fully agree with vitthal ji’s last three lines in his post – 2019
H A L D A R S I R – S P E C I A L L Y F O R Y O U
Ghantasala was a accomplished versatile classical musician (who used to give classical concerts along with playback singing), accomplished versatile playback singer as well as accomplished versatile music director as well. No playback singer in India, including rafi, kishore or others even come to the aforesaid simultaneous versatile talents of ghantasala.
Regards,
Singh.
Haldar ji,
Thanks for your views and best wishes to you. I am closing because of the following reasons. You may take this as my last post.
First of all it is surprising to me, how you are able to reply to my posts which are not yet published. Sure, some favouritism factor seems to be on the roll. If such issues, are there sure, again good governance and ethics are to be doubted and there is no purpose for arguing even in a dignified way.
We have utmost respect for everybody & we put our facts in pure good faith, as they are established and true facts and not created facts for showing biase towards any legend. You have still not replied directly to any of the questions in my post, but again giving round about views. And I again request you to kindly give a patient reading to singh ji’s post on telugu industry, you will get all the answers to your questions. I would like to close saying that if you take the “overall factor (across maximum genres) as a musician and legend keeping in view the culture and essence of the industry” our statements hold true.
“Rafi sahab burial is/was to be demolished”, we read this, someone of us was sad other shocked! something was common that none was happy!
Hence, I ask every Rafian/Rafilover/bhakta, if there is any???
even the article on times of India ,told referring burial ground,and after death of the legend,with head line, “Rafi, Madhubala don’t rest in peace here”…
What about this place, is rafi sahab in peace here?
do we hate kishore kumar(da), lataji,mannaji,Ghantashalaji, mukeshji etc? , “never”……They all r greats not only them, there r infinite people on this earth who r and were great…
But can`t we have few place even on Internet to tribute/remember our beloved Rafi saab even on this virtual internet space without any bitter words being read and told—- Even here, Rafi saab is not only compared but many honourable guest state or rather declare that singer of their choiice is better than Rafi sahab, this shows that they want us to talk of singer or person of their choice and ignore mohammed Rafi altogether even on this small space on the universe of cyber space of internet.
Tribute is another thing, it feels great that we tribuute all, hence, I really liked Uttharaji`s reverent post for ghantashalaji for I know how much her heart is filled with regard or veneration for Rafi sahab…
But discussion with state of war, Rafi or lata, rafi or asha , rafi or kishore/manna/ghantashala is unfortunate for saintly soul of Rafi sahab…
I wish we could be able to give Rafi ji a peaceful place in our heart, and every Rafian love all great singers,including kishore da, ghantashalaji but comparison with rafi sahab hurts us! and a memeber like kishore fan who now n then come here n write that Rafi is an ordinary singer,lets forget him n listen kishore kumar, blah, blah(not more as moderator don`t allow anything badly written)….
Anyway, Rafi sahab sings….
“Itna hai badnashib zafar…”
HALDAR JI,
I AM HURT BY UR WORDS. SUCH A GREAT SINGER LIKE GHAntshala you are comparing with kishore kumar.
rafi sahab is a great singer that doesnt mean he is better than ghantshala.
i am from banglore and for me ghantshala ji is near to god and anyone who criticizes him we can’t bear that.
rafi sahab is the best singer no doubt so is ghantshala.
the songs which you have mentioned of kishore ghantshala ji can sing it very easily.
you give ghantshala ji any song of rafi sahab or kishore he can sing any song in the world .
that is why it is futile to compare kishore with ghantshala.
next time before writing a post think 1000 times and then write something .
i hope you keep my words haldar ji.
regards
nikhil .
Vitthal ji,
As long as you interact with me in good faith, I’ll do the same with you. I used the Kishore weapon against you for a simple reason: there’s hardly any overlap between ghantasala’s gayaki and kishore’s. It’s as simple as that. You said that ghantasala cannot be compared with anyone. I showed you one dimension in which Kishore is superor. If you disagree, try to convince your friends on the Kishore forum about that.
In deference to utthara ji’s wishes, I told you that I didn’t want to continue in this debate. I’m not avoiding any of your questions. I am confident of my agni-ashtra — please do not interpret my silence as a weakness on my part.
Rock ‘n roll is not a genre! Patthar ke sanam, I haven’t heard anything so hilarious in a long time. If I go and tell Shammi Kapoor that rock ‘n roll is not a genre, he’d probably slap me. Kishore da would have probably burst out in laughter. Hindi film music is a mixture of so many styles, some local and some foreign, and that’s what makes it so beautiful. Anyway, for those of us who do not know much about this genre, here’s an excerpt from Wikipedia:
———————-
Rock and roll (often written as rock & roll or rock ‘n’ roll) is a genre of popular music that originated and evolved in the United States during the late 1940s and early 1950s,[1][2] primarily from a combination of the blues, country music[3] and gospel music.[4] Though elements of rock and roll can be heard in country records of the 1930s,[3] and in blues records from the 1920s,[5] rock and roll did not acquire its name until the 1950s.[6][7] An early form of rock and roll was rockabilly,[8] which combined country and jazz with influences from traditional Appalachian folk music and gospel.[9]
Vitthal ji,
I’m not sure in what ways I have been unethical. You said Kishore fans would be happy to know that Shri P. Haldar ji agrees that Kishore had an edge in a certain dimension. First of all, you do not need to address me so respectfully because when someone does that, I get a little nervous. I am just an ordinary person. The only thing great about me is my extraordinary devotion to rafi saab.
I’m not sure if I’ve interacted with you before. In any case, you mustn’t have read my earlier posts. Here’s a post of mine from three years ago in Kishore da’s site; please feel free to share my views with your friends on the other site.
——————————–
P. Haldar Says:
May 10th, 2007 at 10:24 am
I’d like to commend Manish Kumar for a very insightful analysis; I share most of his views.
In the history of playback singing, there was no phenomenon like Rafi and there will never be one. The only singer to challenge Rafi was Kishore and we need to recognize that. Lata, Asha, Manna or Mukesh could never overshadow Rafi; Rafi simply towered above all of them. That it is why it is important to understand the reasons why Kishore could dethrone Rafi. Of course, there was always that issue of patronage from the Burmans, especially the younger one. Suffice it to say that without RD’s music, it would have been impossible for Kishore to displace Rafi. What RD created in the 1970-75 period was sheer magic and Kishore responded magnificently. They were made for one another. Though Rafi’s voice could easily cover the gamut of song types, there was (just) one dimension in which Kishore’s voice was superior. The genius in SD recognized that much earlier than anyone else; that is why he could exploit the two voices so well. But the son never realized that, although Rafi launched him into big league with Teesri Manzil. He let Kishore sing almost every song of his, including classical, folk, ghazal, etc. It is a stroke of irony that when Rafi got half a chance in HKKN, he came back with a bang. The difference between SD and RD ultimately is how they used Rafi. SD and Rafi defined what playback singing is all about in Pyasa (Yeh duniya agar mil bhi jaye to kya hai) and it was they who could scale those lofty heights again in Kagaz ke Phool (Dekhi zamane ki yari). Listen to Rafi’s Din dhal jaye from Guide and it’d be difficult to discern that someone else is singing for Dev.
Kishore was a spontaneous talent. Yes, Rafi could sing every song that Kishore sang but, in my humble opinion, Kishore would be slightly ahead in songs like Yeh dil na hota bechara, Zindagi ek safar hai suhana, Yeh kya hua, Yeh jo mohabbat hai, etc. That is the dimension I alluded to earlier. Rafi fans — and I am one — need to concede that and stop this needless debate that has been going on for the last 37 years.
Rafi and Kishore fans should remember the mutual admiration and respect that these two playback giants shared. In 1983, three years after Rafi had died, Kishore came to sing at a concert in Kolkata. His first song was a Rabindra sangeet; his second was Rafi’s Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare from Chitralekha! Kishore was a self-avowed fan of Rafi’s (he once said, “I am his greatest fan”) and I am sure that Rafi, who hardly ever spoke, had the highest regard for the phenomenon that was Kishore.
Haldar ji,
First of all, my request is let the discussion continue in a ethical way. I have straightly replied to your questions. Did you do so similarly for my post ? No, some sidetracking examples do not serve the purpose.
Next, why bringing kishore kumar into picture, when the discussion is rafi vs. ghantasala. May I think you are forced to take the help of two weapons to tackle one weapon ? Your favourite weapon has failed to tackle ? It appears like that and going by your post, it is clear you admit for that.
I think kishore kumar issue is not relevant here, but still i will reply. Mr. Singh had already replied in his previous post (on telugu industry) to this effect. If you read in between the lines, you will clearly get the answer and I think the same facts need not be repeated again and again.
Next, i would be immensely happy if you could kindly educate your most enlightened views on kishore kumar’s edge over rafi to those rafi fans who think rafi is the best than kishore in every genre. And this point may be highlighted in kishore forum as well. Kishore lovers would be really happy to note that a rafi fan like Sri P Haldar Ji had at last agreed that kishore has edge over rafi in _____ genre. And if you permit, I will be most happy to convey this to my friends in the kishore kumar forum.
post 1997:
Vitthal ji,
You said:
“Btw, i have replied whatever you have asked, and I am waiting for your response and views for my post 1991 ? (Are you trying to conveniently or intelligently ignore the questions there in ?)”
I am not trying to ignore, intelligently or otherwise, any of the questions you have raised. If you read my posts carefully, you’ll find that I haven’t said anything remotely negative about ghantasala’s singing prowess. I am too ordinary a person to comment on such things. But one thing that I’ve seen in your and your friends’ posts is this notion of telugu superiority. As you know, I come from a state where the renaissance happened more than 100 years ago. If I had wanted, I could have dropped names to show the superiority of bengali culture, arts and music. To me, that is very narrow-minded.
Even if you consider hindustani shastriya sangeet, the main contributors have been marathis, punjabis and bengalis. There is no point in showcasing one group over the other. I have in my possession unreleased recordings of such giants as Ustad Amir Khan Saab and Baba Allaudin Khan Saab. I listen to them in private and enjoy them. Would I ever compare Rafi saab with Amir Khan Saab in classical music? Never. But at the same time, would you compare Amir Khan saab with Rafi saab in playback singing? Never. These fields are not comparable. At the same time, just because someone is a classical singer doesn’t accord him/her a higher status as a singer. I personally know several people who are trained classical singers, not at the top level but at the next level. Would you consider them to be better than rafi because they sing classical songs better?
Playback singing requires a different set of skills, which both ghantasala and rafi had. You’ve made it amply clear that ghantasala cannot be compared with anybody. I wouldn’t go so far as that when it comes to rafi. Of course, he can and will be compared to singers like kishore, manna, mukesh, talat and hemant. Each of these singers has unique dimensions and if you’ve read my posts from several years ago, I’ve acknowledged that kishore is unbeatable in the Y dimension. But even in that Y dimension, always remember that any music director would consider Rafi to be the second choice. Rafi could sing each one of those songs effectively, but Kishore would definitely have an edge.
Forget Rafi and consider Kishore for a moment. Here are some Kishore songs in the Y dimension:
Yeh kya hua
Yeh sham mastani
Yeh jo mohabbat hai
Yeh dil na hota bechara
Do you honestly believe Ghantasala could have surpassed Kishore in such songs? My honest opinion: he wouldn’t have come anywhere near Kishore. Kishore is the King of Pop; the new (all-knowing) gentleman on the forum might not consider it to be a genre/style but I do. I hope you’ll get my point.
“knowleldge of telugu or ghantasala being very little or nil. this is the main and most important reason for the ghantasala versus rafi debate.”
you can still perfectly perceive the vocal textures irrespective of the language. this is the deciding factor for me in the rafi & ghantasala discussions. you can also grasp the personality that a singer injects into a song irrespective of the language. there are limitations due to language but music is universal.
i don’t gain anything by trying fooling myself or anyone for that matter. believe it or not, my only agenda is truth & my personal preferences & values.
Haldar sir, -2007
You have misinterpreted my view. “On musical levels and as musician it is certainly true” and any musician has to agree for that. You cannot call rafi greater than bhimsen joshi – can you do it in terms of musical knowledge or qualification ? Same rules applies here – I have used the term “true rafian as a true musician” and the same will certainly give importance to musical levels and musician factor and in such case, what I have said stands definitely true. I am surprised, despite giving such a lengthy view on telugu industry, you have diluted the points to prove your point. In fact, I had equally written about the hindi industry as well as the great rafi. Sure, we equally love rafi and ghantasala. I am with utthara ji, both were two corners of the same coin in “Indian playback singing”.
Sir, I am sorry, I want to stop as I feel you are diluting the topic to other lines instead of carrying decent discussion as being put up by vitthal ji and others. I know you will not have answers for vitthal ji’s post in 1991 and you are deliberately avoiding and have started bullying tactics (which shows insecurity as rafian) , I am sorry, this may lead to mud slinging again as happened earlier. I do not want to further participate unless the discussions continue in a decent way. I have already explained the truths and it is left to your wisdom to accept the truths or not. Thanks for the nice views and your best wishes and my similar reciprocations for the same.
Rafifan 1 – You are a true rafian – May I request Mr. Haldar sir to please know little things from “such true rafians” – Many belong to such category of true rafians – myself, vitthal ji, utthara ji, and many others.
“kindly let me know rock n roll belongs to which sangeeth Gharana and its singnificance in indian music”
this indicates our different values to music. for me music is not an academic subject but a passionate hobby. i like a song with a filmy voice, composition, soul, and have proficient technical ability. mohammed rafi’s songs best match these criteria and i think they are within reason for what is considered great, timeless art. i don’t know what sangeeth gharana the songs from teesri manzil belong too but i think they were fantastic, trendsetting, timeless, quality songs from the pancham – shammi kapoor – nasir hussain – rafi combination. that’s all that coutns for me.
“Sure, sir, A true rafian who is a true musician will certainly do that. And if it is not so, then, no comments.”
if you mean by a musician who is interested primarily in classical music, then i believe you (of course i know ghantasala was proficient in many other genres). i just don’t think everyone needs that qualification to voice an acceptable opinion. i consider myself a moderate, mainstream fan. by mainstream i don’t mean listening to today’s garbage of rap music fused into rags of hindi or himesh reshamiya. i mean the popular but evergreen albums shankar jaikishan, prime rd burman, chitragupta, roshan, etc. “jo wada kiya nibhana pare ga” is what i call a moderate, mainstream song. it’s very popular, well known, but still excellent quality art. it’s not a fad like today’s trash music that “mainstream” fans blindly listen to.
i think some ghantasala fans just have a tough time grasping the very different viewpoint of rafi fans. these comparisons bring in perspectives that come from a new territory. when i started discussing rafi vs kishore etc. a few years ago, points were brought up that initially sounded very crazy to me. over time, with patience and tolerance for different viewpoints, i came to realize where they were coming from. i made my views clear on the kishore site. they were not well received and i have no problems with that. like i said, the ghantasala fans probably never saw it from that point of view or it was so starkly different from what they were used to. i made it very clear in those posts why i disagree with the assertion that rafi fans have absolutely no qualification to evaluate for themselves ghantasala’s music. music is universal. some parts yes we’ll miss out on due to language but stuffl ike vocal texture, even a lot of expression of emotion, technical soundness – we can detect without knowing telegu. i do not wish to repeat myself.
i’m not shy to make comparisons because as i said, i enjoy the discussions and interesting new perspectives come up. i guess i’m not a modest man but as a fan i have the ability to voice whether i like a particular song or not. so i don’t receive particularly well the comments like, “we’re no one to judge”. i certainly can and do but do it for me. i don’t consider my comments as the absolute truths for everyone.
ghantasala and rafi had their advantages and disadvantages over one another. my advice is to realize this and accept that we’ll have different conclusions based on what combination of factors we value the most (and all of us have different values and approaches). speaking for me only, there’s no singer better to sing the songs like “yeh mera prem patra” than rafi and that’s what counts for me.
i will take mr. haldar’s advice and not engage in this debate further. i don’t anyone to be upset. the good thing is that i’ve pretty much said everything i care too about this subject and anymore would be tasking repitition for me.
haldar ji,singh ji,etc
ghantshala is a ordinary singer par excellance.
south indian people enjoy his songs. rafi’s songs are enjoyed by everybody except youngsters.
but kishore da’s songs are liked and enjoyed by eveybody in this universe. he is a perfectionist. do not compare rafi and ghantshala.
as playback singers they are very good.
rafi is a very good human being but as a singer kishore da was,is and always be a better singer.
Dear friends,
When I asked singh ji if any true rafian will buy that ghantasala was much better than rafi, his response was: “Sure, sir, A true rafian who is a true musician will certainly do that. And if it is not so, then, no comments.”
He and his friend came to this site saying that they love rafi and ghantasala equally. Now look at what they are writing. On top of that, we now have some “holier than thou” folks on this site, who have come here to preach.
Thank God that only over-ambitious and greedy bengali singers went to bombay. If telugu singers had gone to bombay, Rafi saab would have had to pack his bags and go back to Lahore. There was so much competition in Telugu music! I wonder why they didn’t send some of their reserves to the rest of the country.
What’s next? When the Telugu renaissance was going on, Bengalis and Marathis were living in caves?
Vitthal ji – 1991
The ghantasala songs are great – both the duets are very melodious, sure the effects were similar to some of the great lata-rafi duets. Thanks for the great songs.
I accept your points, both ghantasala and rafi were such singers who could reach such impeccable heights in their respective industries, which is hardly to achieve by any other singer.
By the way one of my telugu friend has sent me these nice romantic duets of ghantasala and suseela, which I immensely loved it, specially the composition of the songs the way the singers sang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7njBOrk3Vsc&feature=fvw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWshH1Q2yGg&feature=related
The above songs have similar effects to many of the rafi-lata evergreen duets. I loved them immensely.
Singh ji,
I am aware of ghantasala’s prowess. Both ghantasala and rafi are well matched against each other in their areas and many of their songs. Of course, I agree that the classcial genres and padyam genres which you mentioned, are the ones in which ghantasala was a genius. Naturally, by virtue of his classical skills, it is but natural for ghantasala to have a edge in these genres. Rafi too was nice in classical genres, madhuban mein radhika nache re, man mora bawra etc. but sure, in speed and skills, ghantasala has got a awesome display, I agree with that.
In hindi rafi was rafi and I agree with vitthal ji and you both, that ghantasala was ghantasala.
dear fans,
it is true that many ghantasala fans enjoy rafi songs also very much because they know and understand hindi also along with other regional languages, whereas many rafi fans do not enjoy or prefer ghantasala songs because of their knowleldge of telugu or ghantasala being very little or nil. this is the main and most important reason for the ghantasala versus rafi debate. any way, as some rafi fans preferred in their posts to listen to the songs of ghantasala, i am giving a list of some of the best songs sung by ghantasala in this post for the fans of both ghantasala and rafi to listen and enjoy and assert the incomparable talent of ghantasala. the concerned we bsite is: http://www.freewebs.com/sree4ind/ghantasala.htm
title song movie name
palukaradate shavukaru(1952)
emanane -do-
o manasa pellichesichudu(1952)
Aa manasulona palletooru(1952)
evarivo echatanuntivo chandraharam(1954)
vellipodama anta manavaalle(1954)
madhuram sivamantram kala hasti mahamtmyam(1954)
kanumusina santhanam(55)
devi sridevi -do-
nee pocket santhosham(55)
gandupilli tenali ramakrishna(56)
kasturi(sanskrit slokam) chintamani(56)
deva brahmana(slokam) harischandra(56)
antatirajachandrunaku -do-
javadati -do-
neevakkada sri gouri mahamtmyam(56)
Aa kumari -do-
anandamanta bale bava(57)
hare narayana vinayaka chavithi(57)
jaya jaga devahare sati anasuya(57)
vayasumallina anna tammudu(58)
indrudi(padyam) ganga gowri samvadam(58)
jaladharasyama bhu kailas(58)
neelagagana chenchu lakshmi(58)
chilaka gorinka -do-
dolukatti veera khadgam(58)
jagame ipude veera pratap(58)
chana(padyams) sri krishna maya(58)
neelavarna -do-
tapamo -do-
challaga chudali pellinati pramanalu(58)
neethone lokamu -do-
ravemuddula -do-
tanadharmambunu(padyam) appuchesi pappukudu(59)
nee sukhamunu neebhogame -do-
rave premalatha pellisandadi(59)
needana jayabheri(59)
chitrame sabhash pilla(59)
radhamohana rachavihari banda ramudu(59)
sri hari bhakta ambareesha(59)
nee seva -do-
evaro atanevaro sri venkateswara mahatmyam
all padyams sri krishna rayabaramu(60)
drowpadya mahakavi kalidasu(60)
o vannevannela bhakta potana(60)
karunachudavaya deepavali(60)
taralipoye bhakta raghunath(60)
geetagovindam dheerasameere private song
geetagovindam pravisaradhe -do-
geetagovindam radhika -do-
geetagovindam ramate -do-
the above list contains only few of his best and unfortunately the above website contains his songs upto the year 1960 only. now i invite the fans of both legends to download from above website and listen carefully to the above songs and asses the incomparable talent of ghantasala. the quality of song recording was poor some places which can be excused. regards. ‘
Walijah ji, – 2001
Thanks for your views.
Here is the link you were searching for.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7Zi5Cxu4Gc&feature=related
Singh ji – 1998
Zabardast reply and post. My appreciations.
Haldar ji, – 2000 – We reciprocate to your last line in the post, thanks for the same, I could get you have deliberately ignored my questions in post 1991, as usually happens when certain genuine issues are raised regarding the “superiority factor”. Got it.
thanks & regards
Vitthal
Haldar ji,
“Do you think any true rafian will buy that ”
Sure, sir, A true rafian who is a true musician will certainly do that. And if it is not so, then, no comments.
Vitthal ji, – nice posts.
Vithalji
well written, keep going
Apart from the classically rendersd gems like the _sivasankari sivananda lahiri. I remember another polished gem from Ghantasal garu from Jayabheri _ Rasika raja Taguwaram kama_. unfortunarely I could not find the link in youtube for this song.
Haldar ji
kindly let me know rock n roll belongs to which sangeeth Gharana and its singnificance in indian music.
many thanks
H.A.K. Walijah