True Voice – Mohd Rafi
The following article was brought to my notice when Sharad posted it on MAS. The article has been trimmed down a bit keeping afloat Rafi details. However, anyone interested can go visit the source at http://tfmpage.com/forum/4980.6302.04.57.19.html
I am Swaminatha Iyer and I am 78 years old. I hail from Tiruchi and I am a part of music associations in Tiruchi, M’as as well as in West Bengal and Maharashtra.
I think it is wrong to condemn music or artists on either side of Vindhyas. Our Indian music is one of the few which has not been cleaned off by the western music though there has always been a influence. It speaks a lot of the richness of our music. Sometime back director of MTV had said that MTV westernized the music wherever it went but in India , MTV had to be Indianized for it to be accepted. A lot of this credit goes to the Indian film music.
I have been fortunate to have close personal association with Rafi, Sirkali, TMS, Dr. BMK, Kishore, SPB & KJY, PS, Mannadey and the one and only Lata Mangeshkar.
Comparisons are bound to come, but almost every artist or I have met considers Lata to be beyond comparison. Her talents are beyond anyone’s reach. Even Sirkazi used to talk of her singing like a die-hard fan as do countless others.
Now coming to the Rafi-SPB discussion. It might be difficult to convince an South Indian to believe Rafi is the better and at the same time Rafi crowd will never believe any other male singer comes anywhere nearer. There is one more mobile crowd, which is well conversant with Hindi and some south Indian language. Majority of them tilt to either Rafi or Kishore.
During one of my stays in M’as I had stayed with SPB. While talking of true voices he said, I don’t feel like half a singer when listening to Rafi. True voice is not a tech term but many in circle use it. Perfect example would be lata, but to understand consider our own PS who within her range is superb. People who do not have such true voices can never do justice to original. They generally underplay many parts of the song or fake it with bass/superficial singing. True voices make people like Sirkazi, Nusrat Fateh Ali khan, Lata… Inimitable. However since Sirkazi and Nusrat did not have the filmy voices their “real” following is limited to their local arena.
In addition to the true voice if the singer has a very good voice then in “most” cases he/she can better songs of others. It is this combination which makes Rafi stand out among the other male singers. There are many here who seem to have mistaken notions on a good bass and also on high pitch.
Bryan Adams does not require a monster bass in “Summer of 69” to sound real manly. It is the punch which gives that feel and that is decided only by the comfort level in most ranges (that is by what your throat can support). This you CAN never disguise with bass. Since people have talked about lack of manly voice viz. a viz. Rafi it was necessary to bring this point out. I have had the fortune of listening to most singers in studio and some times without a mike, practicing with MD’s.When Lata or Rafi do, the level is so high that people hesitate to even hum. It felt silly to sing in their presence (and it feels silly when someone says his voice isn’t manly).
In RD’s tribute when SPB sang “Aaja Aaja mein hoon” or “Chaand mera dil” it sounded only sweet and lacked punch if you compare with Rafi’s original.
Yesu once told me God has been partial to Rafi. He said “god gift term anavasyamaa romba common aa ippo use aardu”.. but idu Rafi kee thaan 100% porundu”. This person could sing “as intricately as a lady without sounding thin”, “cover any mood”, “versatility odey perfect example Rafi”. Yesu said most important is the comfort level over ranges which makes you feel God has been partial to Rafi. (But Of course in Rafi’s early career (1950’s) the voice was relatively feeble).
To people exposed to Rafi’s talent, these or any amount of praise can only seem less. I just wish he was alive and you people could get a live chance to hear him. Probably you can get hold of the DD album for the Geet Gaata Chal series where the first four episodes were dedicated to Rafi. Rafi is on camera singing “O Duniya Ke Rakwaaley” and many other songs. If you see and hear the last part you will realize why SPB said “impossible”. I think particularly those people who have talked about scales w.r.t Rafi should see this album. Its a known fact in industry that Rafi ruled high pitch and there is no male singer better in switching notes so easily. There are artists who can go beyond but then they sound strained or they don’t have pleasant voices when they venture into those territories.
Many singers of today are his compulsive followers. But they end up inheriting only part of his quality. Md. Aziz ended up with a sad voice. Mahendra Kapoor with a thick nasal voice. Anwar with a nasal voice. Sonu Nigam with a feminine voice. Rafi neither had a soft voice nor a heavy (bass) voice he had a good voice. Importantly did not strain at high notes, and voice if at all only became better at higher notes. If you see him singing it will remind you of Janaki. However diff the song is or the note is he will be smiling and singing. It is unthinkable that he cannot sing something.
There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo” song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect. There are lot of other songs of SPB where this great singer has played with songs in total control. You will find most south Indian singers who have had a good exposure say that it is beneficial to learn Hindustani as it gives better breath control and improves expression.
Rafi was not only able to glide over a song, the important thing was that he could express each word/sound when singing. It is one thing to hold your breath, start and reach a crescendo (high note), as like in “Shankara”, “Anbey (Yennai kaan villaye)” it is different ballgame if you have to do it from low notes or suddenly switch notes. With practice the former can be done, latter requires a special gift. Rafi had a natural ability to do the latter. In “Tum joh mil gaye ho” there is such a transition in the “karwaan mil gaya” part. I have never seen anyone do justice to most of his songs in my life time. In “parda hai parda” quawaali the similar part is “kar doon to, Akbar mera naam”. In fact most of his songs will have these specialty as it was his natural ability to sing freely in a wide range at the same time giving that extra expression.
Whereas SPB takes us to heavens with “Idu oru pon maali”,”Ilaya nila” “bisiladarenu”(kannada), when he sings Rafi’s song it lacks the punch or expression, though it has the bass. But at least most agree that SPB does some justice to original, whereas most others murder the original.
One trivial point I would like to add is that singing in Hindi is harder. There are more “JHA”,”CHA”,”HA”,”THA”, “KHA”,”JA”,”FA”. These take away the breath faster. The more expressive you are the more air you are using up. Just singing from Nabhi will not help, your throat also needs to do a lot, for singing in Hindi, Bengali etc. SPB makes you fall in love with his south Indian songs but same cannot be said about his Hindi songs. If you just glide through words having these sounds, you will never be expressive. Doing this as well as reaching high notes is not easy. Rafi had this gift and that’s why it is difficult to imagine anyone else in his shoes. Song “Chalkaaye jaam” has so much expression that it is unthinkable how anyone can sing it. When Rafi switches to a high note with “Mitwaa” in the song “Chaahunga mein tughey” you cannot replicate it with bass. Most others will sound as if they are shouting in such cases. That man’s throat had the ability to freely sing at such levels.
Versatility is not just the ability to sing in various styles, more important is how good you are singing in those styles. You have lot of Ghazal singers today but when Rafi sings a Ghazal you will sit up and take notice. You don’t have to be part of the Ghazal listeners crowd. This is one important aspect. Whatever style you sing you should be able to pull the common man to listen and not just a particular crowd. Pick “parda hai parda” or any qawalli and it will stand tall among other qawalli’s.
Variety is amazing :
songs of Guru Dutt’s Khagaz key phool or songs like abhi naa jao chod key, Aaja teri yaad aayi, Aaj kal mein dhal gaya, Aaj kal terey merey pyaar, Aasmaan sey aaya farishta, Dil ney pyaar kiya hai, Deewana mujh saa nahi, Din dhal jaaye, Duniya paagal hai, Jaane walon jara, Dil joh na kaha saka, Dil key jharokon mein, Dil kaa bhavar, Chalkey teri aakkhon sey, Kar chaley hum fida, khilona jaan kar tum, Woh jab yaad aay, Woh hain jara khafa, Vaadian mera daaman, Pathar key sanam, Chaand mera dil, Main zindagi kaa saath, Mainey poocha chaand sey, sun sun jaalima, Koi jab raah na paay, hum to chaley pardes, badan pey sitaarey, laal chadi maidaan, Tum jo mil gaye, O meri shaahey, Sau baar janam lengey, Tum mujhey yoon bhula, Tumney mujhey dekha, Terey merey sapney, Tumny pukaara hum chaley aay
Name a situation/mood and Rafi’s song will be there on the top.
Swami
2111 – Musharaff ji
An interesting post. Both the legends rafi and ghantasala were great, unique and supreme in their own ways – As siri says, one was north pole and another was south pole. It cannot be decided so easily which pole is great, one pole may be long or wider than the other pole, but both stand as poles – only 2 poles.
Dear commonmanji, Post 2134. You have exactly pinpointed what I wanted to say.
Dear Murthyji, post 2130 & 2135. Firstly,Octaves and parameters are some of the means to analyze a singer’s voice strucure. But that can hardly be used to determine the success of the vocalists in their respective areas. According to rajeevji Ostaad Bade Ghulam Ali could sing at 21 notes and one bmk(I have not heard about him) in 25 notes. Can we than presume that they would be able to prove themselves better singers in filmy songs than Rafi, Kishore or Ghantasala just because they could sing in higher notes? Rafi was also classically trained. So was Lataji, Ashaji, Suman kalyanpur and manna dey. This classical training enabled them to sing all types of songs. Rafi’s classical ability was sufficient for him to do full justice to the songs the Music Directors wanted him to sing. Added to it was the Godgifted voice that Rafi possessed (what you have termed”Velvet & Silky”) that was instrumental in rendering so many mindblowing and legendary songs some of which I have quoted in my earlier posts.
Secondly, regarding acceptability of the public, what Ghantasala did in the regional forum. rafi did the same in the national forum. The impact that rafi created in the minds of the public is unprecedented not only in Bollywood but throughout India. Further elaboration here is unnecessary.
Thirdly, as commonmanji has stated, music is an art and not a matter of technique. It does not follow the principle”Tougher the song, the better is it’s Singer”. Many simple songs have found more appreciation than tough songs due to it’s quality. That holds good for the songs of all singers. Rafi’s success in the film industry has not been due to any particular type of tough songs that he sang but due to all types of songs that he rendered.
Fourthly, I agree that post 70s saw Kishore kumar songs getting more popular. But Rafi again staged a comeback with the songs’ Tere galiyon me na rakhkhenge kadam’ and “Kya hua tera wada” in the mid-sventies. However Rafi’s best songs were his songs in the 50s and the 60s, the twenty years he ruled like an emperor. Perfect was the match of his voice and the tunes set by the giant music Directors and the songs that came out out of these combination spread their melodies across the national border in to an international serena.
As to your post 2135, history will say who is the most popular or who is the most famous play back singer of India. In my opinion Ghantasala is the best playbacksinger from the classical angle while rafi is from the filmy angle.
Common man,
“with ghantasala, his voice sounds the same for every song that his fans have shared with me. ”
I do not agree with the statement – he is a very versatile singer like rafi . Even you have agreed with this earlier and now are contradicting your own posts. Your comments are susceptible – lacking in ethics. In fact, many telugus think that rafi has a same voice for every song – he is not that expert in change in voice technique as was ghantasala – this was also stated by Mr. Khan and other musicians.
Dear music lovers,
We have been associated with this site for a long time and we are thankful for the support extended in making wonderful discussions. Since this is a article on Mohd rafi vs. the southern singers, I think every south indian music lover has a right to express his views in this particular thread. No discussion on south indian music is made in other threads or articles in this rafi forum, as I feel music lovers from south are sensible enough to know that.
Common man,
“this is all that they talk about! music is more than just that…it is art…this is not mathematics…you need the basic proficiency”
Do you say rafi knew music well and ghantasala did not ? What do you mean by your point ? or do you want to convey that rafi fans are better musicians than ghantasala fans. Well even recently in one of spb programmes, we have personally listened to spb commenting that he can sing better than rafi (really surprising for which spb was lashed at like anything) these comments are increasing now a days – please see the telugu programme paaduta teeyaga by spb every week for his views regularly. One of my close friends has listened from spb personally that he can show defects in rafi’s singing. People mention only about spb’s praise about rafi, what about these inside views of spb – does any rafi fan know about this ? What will happen to their feelings if they listen to such points ?
“but then you need the artistic gifts of voice & expression…where *overall* was peerless (not for every single song). ”
Very good – will the great rafi agree with your statement on post, if asked to tell about ghantasala, Will any singer agree to your post? Was ghantasala not peerless, he was for every single song. It is sure that he can sing song of any singer, but his songs cannot be sung by many singers in the way he sings. What do you say for this ? Where is the overall peerless strength goes in such case if a song also cannot be attempted by many others ? Do you know what was rafi’s view on ghantasala – there was a lot of fuss made by you and others when it was mentioned by sri Vitthal once that rafi approached ghantasala but ghantasala never approached rafi and there are many such points which are hardcore truths. We never want to enter into an argument and disputes, but problems arise when such posts come. Ghantasala’s status was such there was no need for him to venture anywhere. Others have ventured into bollywood because of sheer necessity and others, because their home industry could not give that incomparable recognition. There was no need and necessity for ghantasala to even try for bollywood. His industry has given him such exalted status that no body else can stand for comparison. You have run away from kishore kumar site failing to give replies to musicians and now started to put your views on common people who are not much experts on music.
By the way you have mentioned Mr. khan as a ghantasala fan – I do not think he is a ghantasala fan, he is a rafi fan and he does not know telugu as can be seen from his posts. Musicians are always quite firm on their views, they are not like ordinary people like us to unnecessarity flutter in many of our posts.
Dr. Rao has not made any adverse comment, he has praised rafi as a great and accomplished singer – you have unnecessarily blown out of proportion your biased views. Why are you so insecure ?
Common man, –
Your views are respected.
the posts 1971, 1998, 2024 in this true voice col. are perfect answers for your doubts – all your issues are clarified there.
My true rafian friends
Can any of my rafian friend give me a link to the song which goes like nana karte ….. pyar kar baithe – of rafi and lata (I think) – rafi definitely sounds great in this song than lata – I heard this song only once in doordarshan long back and was longing to hear the song again.
Vitthal ji – 2136
Thanks for the link – I was longing to have a search for the harikatha song which I never got all these days. Thanks a lot again for the link of the great song.
Dr. Rao – respects sri former IAS officer sir,
Sir, it is natural to expect some posts, specially if you convey some facts which are not controversial or untrue – I know many rafian friends, – balanced, knowing the truth (not like this common man) who agree with each and every point of what has been stated here. My great regards and respects for such true rafians who are true music lovers and they never argue and try to convince – even there are many friends among kishore kumar fans who never argue – very balanced and understanding (again not like this common man) It will be a real pleasure to have healthier arguments with such true music lovers. Please do not take seriously about this common man’s points – he created trouble in kishore kumar site also when there were some good discussions among balanced individuals. In this world, it is natural to expect disturbances when some good and nice things or discussions happen, quite natural – cheers.
post 2126…
VITHAL JI… if the birth date of a person is 26-6-56 then how would you CONNECT it with MUSIC sir? was the query.
thanks for reverting
Common man,
Just for sharing – Pl. hear the song in my immediate previous post. The following is another song from same film for same actor by ghantasala – see the difference in voice and melody.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGcRn19EfL0&feature=related
One more point I forgot Mr. Common man,
“with ghantasala, his voice sounds the same for every song that his fans have shared with me”.
Same thing I have heard from many hardcore ghantasala fans – they say rafi’s voice is similar in every song – a monotonous voice – where this will simply lead to if you land in such type of points. Arguments should be really healthier, otherwise there is no purpose in exchanging views and discussing.
2134 – Mr. common man
I have seen the site and made a first post as I thought it is a public forum and people interested in music, specially for songs of a accomplished singer like rafi, can post their views. I never thought such reaction would come, and I have not posted a message for arguing in which I am never interested. You appear to be a very hardcore rafi fan like a hardcore ghantasala fan, both of whom are really difficult to be convinced from their view points. Anyhow, it is really very happy to note that the talented legends have got such hardcore fans even after so many years of their passing away. Anyhow, I would like to put only one point, be in the shoes of a telugu man knowing the language and film industry, you will know what ghantasala is – never such singer or voice will be born – you are talking only being a rafi fan, whereas ghantasala fans are both rafi and ghantasala fans – so in my view they are more better judges to decide who is what. I think this point will be agreed to each and every balanced individual. You cannot comment upon a sanskrit language without studying it, though you may be expert in english – Even if you believe english is only great , it is not true. A person who has expert knowledge of both english and sanskrit languages is certainly a better and sensible person to decide which language is what and what are its specialities. Same rule applies here, An individual, who has knowledge of both the singers “perfectly” is certainly a better judge. It does not make any difference even if you do not believe in the truth which is said by somebody, it is upto people like you to take as your “intelligence permits” to know the true facts. Anyhow, I repeat, I am not a man interested in arguing with people who cannot understand even simple points, since arguments should be healthier and convincing to both the individuals. Your post does not convey such healthier arguments.
For your information, you were mentioning one Mr. Khan and I have seen his message, I think he is a rafi fan and not ghantasala fan – as he is a hindusthani musician and he has given his views as a musician – this correction you may please note in your message.
Anyhow, I again repeat that I am least interested in arguing which will not lead to anywhere. Unless there are any meaningful arguments, I would also not like to express views further. Truth is always truth and will never change.
i welcome dissent but i will respond bluntly how i feel. no hard feelings, just honesty. just because i don’t agree with something (or like it) doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be allowed. please do speak your mind – but i will too. i appreciate that freedom & tolerance of honesty.
“now let us imagine the reputation they would have been enjoying today among their fans. certainly very and very few people would be knowing rafi, kishore kumar, etc.,
what i mean to say is, it is only hindi with national language status that has given them more name, popularity etc.,
so, i sum up that in india rafi is the most popular film singer but ghantasala is the most famous film singer. regards.”
the above bitter, jealous revisionist fantasy. ghantasala won’t be able to to heights songs like “yeh dil na hota bechara” or “dil pukaare aa re aa re” as well as kishore & rafi.
“his voice was just mellifluous like rafi’s for those kinds of songs”
glad i made a typo and missed one keyword in this sentence. maybe i was a tad more vocal about my preference for rafi in response to dr. rao’s post.
“with ghantasala, his voice sounds the same for every song that his fans have shared with me.”
i should clarify this. rafi’s voice is right in the middle…it isn’t too soft but it isn’t too heavy either…it is just right. this makes it very easy for his voice to be appropriate for all kinds of songs. ghantasala’s voice, on the other hand, was very deep. a deep voice has its advantages but it isn’t suitable for all kinds of songs. i’d rather be in the middle and adjust my voice either heavy or light (like rafi) than be ghantasala and have a deep voice that will struggle to have the softness that some songs require (like aise to na dekho). rafi was gifted with a more versatile vocal texture.
of course, every singer has his trademark vocal traits in all of his songs. it’s not like you listen to one song and fail to recognize rafi, kishore, etc. but some singers are especially good at manipulating their vocal texture for the particular song…like rafi.
Post # 2134
Common man, your post is simply gibberish.
At first, try to get fist hand knowledge about Ghantasala, if you need some information, go back on this forum and check the posts of Ghantasala fans, you will be enlightened a little, even I think that information is not enough to praise Ghantasala for his singing prowess.
Being a non-telugu, it is very hard to believe and accept the greatness of Ghantasala. If a person knows a little telugu, he will definitely appreciate the man who sang thirty years relentlessly with addition to other genres like padyalu, harikathalu, and finally the greatest feat: the rendition of Bhagwat Geeta, which can be heard in every temple morning and evening. In this way Ghantasala was a blessed singer and he lives ever in the hearts of music lovers all around the world..
At the same time I am a fan of Mohd. Rafi for more than thirty five years, he is the greatest singer even after thirty years passed on since he departed this world. But even now his songs are as fresh as in his days. A singer really hard to forget. When I read or hear about the comparison made between these two great legends, my heart feels pain and I lament on the ignorance of one sided people who do not have sufficient knowledge about Ghantasala to evaluate his renditions through and through.
Even if you keep aside Ghantasala from film music, then he will be in the first row of stalwarts like Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan, Ustad Amir Khan, Pt.Bhimsen Joshi, Pt. Jasraj, and Bala Murli Krishna. Because he was classical trained and accomplished singer and moreover successful Music Director for more than hundred movies. He performed a lot of classical music concerts. It is unfortunate that Ghantasala had not sung even a single piece of hindi song, if that would have happened, the so called single sided people had a chance to compare the legends. But luckily Rafi had sung more than enough songs in Telugu that can be compared with the songs of Ghantalsa. If any one compares those songs of Rafi with the immortal songs of Ghantasala, obviously one has to appreciate & accept the greatness of the great maestro Ghantasala.
The voice of Ghantasala is magnificent and majestic all the ways which was more than enough to suit the heroes voices of his times. He was undisputed king of Telugu movie singers until he died in 1974. His voice was more romantic for the situation of romance in the movies. It is the obscure and pretentious thinking that his fate was that of Manna Dey, as I told you earlier he was undisputed king of telugu film singing.
Regarding the popularity of Ghantasala, no need to be inferior in other sense that Telugu is one of the mostly talked about languages in the world, for unbiased people it is one of the mellifluous language of india like Urdu. The words and sounds are amazing and sweet like sugarcane.
If any song of Mohd. Rafi would have given to Ghantasala he might have sung it with ease, but whereas the padyalu and Harikathalu was unique genre, if those things put before Mohd. Rafi he would not have rendered it as perfectly as Ghantasala. Finally I would say that Ghantasala and Mohd Rafi are the two great sources of music like two eyes of a human being.
post 2128:
siva ji,
I was going through the songs you’ve cited and one of them caught my attention: jungle mein mor nacha kisi ne na dekha. Here’s my honest opinion: there’s not a single singer in the whole of India who could even come close to the way rafi saab delivered the song. Come to think of it, except for one comedian, rafi saab was the best singer for all comedians including johnny walker, mehmood, i. s. johar, om prakash… Only for one comedian, he was the second best. (Quiz question: Who was that comedian?)
I still keep listening to the madhumati song and wonder in amazement at how a soft-spoken person who never touched a drop of alcohol could so realistically render the song. Only Kishore Kumar could have perhaps done 70% justice to that song. Manna Dey, maybe 60%. Other singers — well, the nasha would go out of the window, no matter how many octaves their voices could cover. That’s the truth.
Dr. Rao Sir, – Greetings & respects sir,
Welcome to this beautiful site of rafi ji and this true voice col. I agree with your views.
Ratnakumar – Agree with your views.
My Dear rafian friends and ghantasala fans too
I just wanted to share a semi classical musical hari katha genre – a special genre present in telugu film industry – The genre is a devotional composition generally composed in classical style and requires special expressions and emotions. Ghantasala sings its and the actor is the greatest comedian relangi from the telugu industry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaXnm1EqNhY&feature=related
Hope music lovers enjoy the song. A great favourite song of telugu people is this song of ghantasala.
dear sri dr rao garu,
referring to your post 2133, i agree with your views sir. it is true that rafi is known more than ghantasala in india mainly due to his association with the national language i.e. hindi which has more coverage, market, access, publicity than any other regional language in the country. for academic interest, suppose let us imagine for a while the reversal of the roles and situation of hindi film singers and regional film singers, that is, hindi film singers singing in regional languages and regional film singers singing in hindi language. now let us imagine the reputation they would have been enjoying today among their fans. certainly very and very few people would be knowing rafi, kishore kumar, etc., what i mean to say is, it is only hindi with national language status that has given them more name, popularity etc.,
so, i sum up that in india rafi is the most popular film singer but ghantasala is the most famous film singer. regards.
dr. rao,
“Being from the national language, it is by good fortune that rafi had become more popular than ghantasala name wise.”
it is by good fortune that Ghantasala was not born of the national language…in hindi films, technical proficiency was a prerequisite (with exceptions like mukesh) and a filmy voice was extremely important. this is why kishore kumar was so successful in hindi films whereas he would not have the same success in telegu. he had a great voice (especially before 1975).
ghantasala’s voice was just not as filmy as the voices of rafi or kishore. ghantasala would not have had the success in hfm that he did in telegu. his fans say that i speculate…but i agree with mr. musharaff…ghantasala’s coarse voice just can’t give a simple song like “aise to na dekho” the luster that rafi’s velvet voice can. then some ghantasala fans like mr. khan distort this and say that i’m suggesting a sweet voice is good for all occasions. of course not! rafi’s voice & expressions were very versatile and he could change them to suit the mood of the song. with ghantasala, his voice sounds the same for every song that his fans have shared with me.
ghantasala fans talk about their knowledge of both telegu & hindi so they have greater scope…on the contrary…the only limited scope they can focus on is “how hard a song is to sing technically” and songs like siva sankari etc…this is all that they talk about! music is more than just that…it is art…this is not mathematics…you need the basic proficiency that rafi had….but then you need the artistic gifts of voice & expression…where *overall* was peerless (not for every single song).
people like you say “oh, rafi was born in the national language that is why he is more famous”…you know what they say…be careful what you wish for…ghantasala was lucky to sing telegu…in hindi we’d be pleased that he had the basic proficiency…but then we listen to him try to sing “aise to na dekho” or “sau saal pehle”…and while he’d sing easily…his voice was just mellifluous like rafi’s for those kinds of songs…the songs we cherish in hfm…and ghantasala would have had the same fate as manna dey…respected but not numero uno like rafi or kishore.
i just don’t see you appreciate the beauty, the free art…everything has to be measurable…we must know someone’s training background…how easily he sings the hardest songs…well that’s great…that’s important…but the hindi film looks for more than just that.
Mr. Musharraf
Rafi and ghantasala both were great singers – their industries were different. Both have immense fan following even today and this proves their talent. Myself as a telugu man, and being from the traditional background, i personally feel that the influence cast by ghantasala over the masses in andhra is relatively far greater than the influence of rafi cast over the masses, though rafi’s influence and tremendous popularity too can never be undermined. Being from the national language, it is by good fortune that rafi had become more popular than ghantasala name wise. As Mr. Vitthal, here, in one of his posts says that unless one is well conversant with the telugu industry – it is really difficult to appreciate the incomparable greatness of ghantasala in full. Forget SPB and others who do not come anyway nearer to the great ghantasala. The andhra film industry – any singer or classical musician, if he talks about a film song – the benchmark stands ghantasala though any singer does not come even nearer to him.
Nevertheless, as Mr. Siva says, rafi too was an accomplished singer and his hindi songs are more appreciated than any of his telugu songs, which are just not acceptable to almost all of the telugu people.
Musharraf ji and murthy 2010 ji,
In Hindi field, both rafi and kishore kumar had their times, however, I think rafi had a sweeter and melodious voice than kishore kumar, though, as you said, kishore kumar did dominate for some period. Anyway, both were two great singers from the hindi filmworld and both of these singers songs are also nice to hear. Among hindi film singers, rafi did create tremendous influence than other singers and in my view rafi’s songs are more challenging than other hindi film singers including kishore kumar. Manna dey song you might have heard ketaki gulab juhi from basant bahar film etc. are also some challenging songs in hindi. They are also interesting compositions though they are not as tougher or challenging as that of songs of ghantasala. Anyhow, hindi film world has its own charm from the filmy point of view, whereas southern industry is not only great from the filmy point of view, but ranks incomparable even from the artistic point of view.
Murthy 2010 – 2130
I agree with your post on ghantasala – In India, he is the only singer who dominated the film industry (telugu) for nearly 3 decades unchallenged until his last breath and yes, most of his songs and compositions are relatively tougher than other film singers of india. Further, his majestic golden voice added as a advantage supporting his technical expertise, giving a incomparable beauty to his each and every rendition. Always the proverb goes even today in andhra, no replication or comparison for ghantasala master at any point of time. Every year the best playback singer award went to him in those days, as long as he was alive.
2129 – Musharraf ji
I acknowledge your positive points.
Thanks for your post. i agree with you on What manna dey has said for rafi – such singer like rafi will not be born again – same was stated by SPB & others in the south i.e past and future there will not be singer like ghantasala. I am happy you liked the songs. Knowledge of industry and culture would certainly be an added advantage for catching the reality in full.
2130 – Murthy 2010
sir, Perfectly correct – good post.
2128 – siva ji – nice views – see the popularity of the legends even after so many decades. The film playback singing has produced such gems.
dear musharrafji,
referring to your posts 2123 and 2124, once again i disagree with you on the following points. firstly, we, the fans, and common men may not be aware of the parameters of classical music such as octaves, technical ability, etc. and we feel that it is enough for a singer if he can sing with bhava and match the voice of the actor for whom he sings. but these parameters are very essential for a singer to be classified as good or great or greater or the greatest ever. in fact, these parameters help a singer to sing better and better. we may feel these parameters arenot important just because we do not know much about them. but the music experts take into account all these parameters while assessing the greatness of a singer in comparison to others. they also advise the upcoming singers to learn classical music and develop their voice to sing well. certainly, classical background is an additional advatage for any singer to sing better.
secondly, coming to the acceptability of the voice of a singer by public, in telugu films, many and many films became hits and superhits just because of the songs of ghantasala. the yesteryear veteran actors like ANR and NTR always preferred ghantasala to sing for them and they openly acknowledged, appreciated and applauded the role of ghantasala being instrumental in the success of their roles and films. the fact that ghantasala could dominate the telugu film industry till end clearly shows the acceptability of his voice in public mind in the songs of various genres, rasas, ragas, pitches etc., here it will not be out of place to mention that though spb sang several thousands and thousands of songs in telugu films, his contribution to telugu film songs simply pales in comparison to that of ghantasala. such was his impact and impression in the minds of public.
thirdly, the compositions for the songs of ghantasala are comparatively far tougher than the compositions for the songs of rafi or any other film singer in india. while in hindi films, the music directors made compositions to suit the velvet and silky voice of rafi, the telugu film music directors always challenged the technical and classical perfection of ghantasala by making tough and tougher compositions in various genres, pitches, rasas and ragas.
fourthly, in your post, you commented that rafi had an unchallenged career which is totally false. every hindi person knows that rafi was dominated and overtaken by kishore kumar and this was not so in telugu films where ghantasala reigned supreme till end. and even today no other telugu film singer can come close to him.
anyway, the fans of ghantasala enjoy the songs of rafi more than the rafi fans enjoying the songs of ghantasala, the reason being their knowledge and understanding of telugu to be either little or nil. and, i, being a fan of both the legends, salute both of them. regards.
Reply to Vitthalji post 2127
Firstly I would like to thank Sivaji for his post. In fact he has elaborated beautifully what I was trying to impress upon in my various posts. There is actually no area of music where Rafi has not printed his footmarks, a virtue, for which he stayed above other singers. And remarkable was his fine touches that he made in the songs due to the voice quality that was bestowed to him by God which brought him close to the listener’s heart.
I would respond to Vitthalji in seriatum.
1) The fact why the song Shiva Shankari appealed to me more was probably for the beauty of the Raag in which it was tuned and it started in Teen taal followed by mindblowing taans rendered by Ghantasala. Actually tough songs may not not be the best songs. This holds good for so all singers.I think Shiva shankari is more popular than Syhamala dandakam.
2) Who sings high pitch songs more at ease is a matter not really put into test. Further,if you carefully listen to the high pitch songs of Rafi you will see a certain boldness in his voice that was unique in Rafi which was also acknowledged by Lataji in one of her interviews while commenting on Rafi.
3) I have listened to both the songs referred by you. Both have been beautifully sung by Ghantasala. But I am happy and amazed to discover that the melancholy “manasuna manasai” is the telegu version of a Bengali song”Boshe achchi potho cheye phagoonero gaan geye” sung by no other than Hemata Mukherjee(Known as Hemantkumar in Bollywood). This was lipsung by the great hero of Bengal the late “Uttam Kumar”. I have forgotten the name of the film, probably it was “Shapmochan”.
4) I agree with you that Ghantasala had utilized his classical ability in most of his songs.
5) As Ghantasalas position was in the telegu film industry, Rafi’s postion is in Bollywood. Once manna Dey told about Rafi in an interview in a bengali magazine”Shananda”, ” Such a big artist had not been born in the past 100 years and shall be born in the coming 100 years”.
However, I want to end the post by saying that both were great artists and both will remain the best in the eyes of their respective fans. Successful will be he who will run the test of history.
I have been reading all the various posts emphasizing how Ghantasala was much superior to Rafi , especially in the classical genre. If Rafi had been alive today, he would have been the first to acknowledge this fact-dear friends please understand that was the greatness of Rafi!! And that quality of Rafi –being so humble , soft-spoken , generous , always lending a helping hand is what makes all his millions of fans go crazy about him. His lack of “three octaves” does not matter at all for us!!!Yes it is true that Ghantasala was definitely more accomplished than Rafi in classical singing. But does that in anyway matter??!!! Let us look further…..
Now before I proceed further, I would like to mention that I am not going to write against Ghantasala or any other singer. In many of my posts, I have always maintained that I listen and enjoy all singers-both from Hindi film music and from South. But…but…Rafi has a very special place in my heart ( and like me in many of the millions of fellow Rafi fans) who do not understand what 2 or 3 octaves are. We are simple laymen who just listen to the magical voice of Rafi and cry with him when he sings O duniya ke rakhwale” or Duniya na bhaye mohe ab to bula le ; laugh with him when he sings Jungle mein mor nache kisi ne na dekha ; get intoxicated with him in Koi sagar dil ko behelata nahin; become a child with Hum bhi agar bachhe hote naam hamara hota babloo….; romance our loved ones with Tere mere sapne ab ek rang hai; salute our beloved Bharat with patritic fervour with Kar chale hum fida jan-o-tan sathiyon; whisper with him in the dead of the night with Tumse kahoon ek baat paron se halke, halke…; even become seductive with Haseen dilruba kareeb aa zara , ke abhi dil nahin bhara; teach a child with Tu Hindu banegaa na musalman banega , insaan ki aulad hai insaan banega; become an animal lover with Nafrat ki duniya ko chodeke, pyaar ki duniya mein….; pray to God with Man tarpat hari darshan ko aaj…or Ishwar allah tere naam sabko sanmati de bhagwan…-I can go on and on—is there any emotion left out ?? the samples I had mentioned are just one or two songs in each emotion…there are hundreds of them.
We are all talking about playback singing and not pure classical singing. That would be an altogether different field and I think no one can compare the stalwarts of Classical music like Ustad Bade Gulam Ali Khan, Ustad Amir Khan, Pandit Jasraj, Pandit Bhimsen Joshi, G.N Balasubramanian, Semmangudi Sreenivasa Iyer, Maharajapuram Santhanam, Balamuralikrishna, M.S Subbalakshmi, D.K.Pattammal, Prabha Atre, Kumar Gandharv etc ( just to name a few that came in my mind)…..with the playback singers of Film music be it Ghantasala or anyone else. The difference is you need to understand classical music to appreciate the same, but for film music we just need to listen with ears ( of course for Rafi’s songs we hear with our hearts—which is a favorite phrase I always use)
I also like Ghanatasala immensely, but please appreciate that Rafi was an equally popular and accomplished playback singer ( emphasis is on playback singing and not giving classical concerts). His “so called” lack of 3 octaves does not in anyway diminish the beauty of the countless songs that he had sung.
Hence let us have respect for all singers and try to avoid harping on the “so called” inferiority of Rafi sahib in the classical genre.
2124 – Musharraf ji – Post only for you.
Your post is well understood. I reciprocate my deep appreciations for the great rafi ji’s songs stated by you, and his great talent and there is no dispute for that – especially for a person who knows rafi ji’s songs well.
A few observations (clarifications) I would like to put:
1. The syamala dandakam is more tougher than the siva sankari number – composed simultaneously in 8 beautiful ragas – acclaimed as a very tough composition challenging the best of best of talents of an accomplished singer.
2. Rafi’s high pitch numbers are beautiful – absolutely no doubt and no body has ever said against it. Only difference between rafi and ghantasala in rendering high pitches is ghantasala can take high pitches with more ease (by virtue of his wider range – the voice culture is built like that) – the command in lower and higher octave for ghantasala is similar – this is what is the point.
3. Next, for your interest, I am sharing one melancholy & one emotional song of ghantasala, since you were talking about songs which are not classical. Just hear and pen your views.
http://www.chitramala.com/audio-songs/pop_new.php?sid=5394&wid=783
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmwdk70JvHE
4. The song rave na cheliya is a romantic solo. Post 2107 of Mr. Sekhar, if you read, you can catch the correct essence. The classical base stands intact in all of his filmy songs as well (other than his classical and semi classical numbers) That was his unique style as compared to others putting him class apart.
5. If you lay importance only on “classical” aspect, then ghantasala would never have been the amara gayaka or the greatest ever film playback singer of the telugu film industry – but you know he is the amara gayaka and the greatest ever film playback singer ever born for the telugu film industry – I repeat – film industry. i think you do not have any doubt over this. I again repeat, unless you are well conversant with the culture and industry, it is somewhat difficult to catch the reality in full. Just like rafi singing for different heroes, ghantasala was the singer for all a grade heroes and people used to just imagine the hero by hearing the song. Now you can get it.
Much discussion has been made on this front and same time again repeating the same discussion again and again and again – let us take your point – Both Rafi and Ghantasala have done great in their respective areas. – Good.
Binunair ji – 2125
I could not get properly your question – could you kindly throw more light on your point.
post 2122..
INTERESTING…
IF THE DAY OF BIRTH IS 26 THEN HOW DO U ASSOCIATE IT WITH THE MUSIC THEORY SIR..?
Cond. from 2123.
Rajeevji,
I have listened to both “Shiva Shankari” and “Shyamala dandakam”. Shiva Shankari is actually not a typically high pitch song.It is a pure classically based song.The beauty of the song lies in the magnificient way Ghantasala approached the song and the “Taans”rendered by him at the end. At the end of the song during the “taans” Ghantasala went to a higher pitch for a few seconds. “Shyamala dandakam”, another classically based song consisting of “Taans” was offcourse started at a higher scale and Ghantasala also went up at the very end. Both are beautiful, devotional classical songs sung by Ghantasala. However I like “Shiva Shankari’ more than the other one due to the melody present in it.
If we compare these two songs with Rafi,s ‘O dunuya ke Rakhwale” and “Zindabaad Zindabaad”we see that the scenarios are different Ghantasala has sung these songs in a devotional way to appease the “Devta'(In Shivashankari) and “Devis” in “Shyamala dandakam”. The general approach in the songs is submissive although Ghantasala went up high at certain places as I had mentioned.
On the other hand the scenarios in which Rafi has sung ‘O duniyake rakhwale” and ‘Zindabaad Zindabaad” are protesting against the creator in the former and revolting against the “Emperor Akbar’s adminisrtation’ and glorifying love in the latter.The “Mejaj” of these songs are sad(abhiman with Bhagwan) and revolutionary respectively. See how beautifully Rafi has sang these two songs in high pitches and did perfect justice to the situation. At the end of the first song when he goes up saying”Rakhwaale” and when in the second song he sings”Insaan Kahan?” it completely moved the audience. i do not know in which octaves Rafi has sung the songs but all I can say these songs have become legends and milestones in Rafi’s unchallenged career. In all the antara’s of these two songs Rafi went very high pitches specially in “O dunuyan ke rakhwaale”. And I do not think Rafi’s scale was lower than Ghantasala’s when Rafi went to the peak.
However, let’s assume, for argument’s sake that Ghantasala could go up to 16-17 notes and rafi up to 12-13 notes. What difference does it make? Both Rafi and Ghantasala are doing great in their respective areas. Rafi continued to sing so many high pitch songs with perfect accuracy. Please listen to “Gharibon ki suno”, “Mohabbad zinda rahte hai”, “Insaaf ki mandir hai yeh”, “Tu hindu banega”, “Meri kahani bhulne wale”. Their are more higher pitch songs of Rafi. But I have to make a search.
Murthyji, I have listened to “Raave na Chelia” of Ghantasala. It is a beautiful song witha classical flavor. In response I would request you to listen the following romantic songs of Rafi”. “Mere mehboob tujhe mere mohabbat” and “Aye husn zara jaag”(Film-Mere Mehboob), “Zindagi bhar nahin bhulegnge”(Film-Barsaat ki raat”),” Ehsaan tera hoga mujh par”(Junglee), Yeh mera prem patra(Sangam), Main nigahen tere chehrese(aap ki parchchaiyan),” Chaudhavi ka chand ho”(Chaudhavi ka chand).
What I find amazing in Rafi is his equal capacity to sing all type of songs. His genious did not confine himself or specialze himself in a particular brand of song. And one thing has to be remembered. Bollywood is a national forum where artists from allover India compete. Lataji and Ashaji are Marathis, Manna Dey and Kishore from Bengal, Rafi is from Punjab. Punkaj Mullick, K.L.Saigal, Talaat Mahmood, Mukesh all came from different parts ofIndia and they were the best in their area. Rafi made his way up to the top by way of his tremendous talent and god gifted melodious voice. I have quoted some songs of Rafi in the course of my discussion but there are so many areas and so many songs. I think I should quote some immortal duets such as “Jo wada kiya woh”,” Abhi na jao chod kar”,” Paon chchu lene do phoolon ko”,” Diwana hua badal” etc. Vishalji you can listen to these songs of my posts and then if you feel you can post your favorite Ghantasala10-20 songs.
At the end I would like to say,to me and to millions of fans, Rafi is the all time greatest playback singer. To Ghanatasala fans it may be Ghantasala. In a democratic society let us therefore in the words of Vitthalji” agree to disagree” as to who is better respecing each other’s views.
‘Long live Mohammed Rafi and Ghantasala in the hearts of music lovers”
DearMurthyji, Siriji, Bhushanji,Vishalji,Rajeevji,& last but not the least Bhaskarmurthyji who has co-related numerology and musicians, thank you again for your response. I was born on February 4th and though I do not claim myself to be an artist, I can humbly claim myself to be a music lover and I do a little bit of singing in small quarters. However that is besides the point in the present context.Bhushanji, if you kindly give me the number of your post I would certainly love to discuss music with you after I go through your’s. Now the basic question is what is the success of a playback singer? Answer is the acceptability of his songs by the members of the public and the public draws their conclusion by listening to them. Whatever sounds sweet, melodious, mindblowing and specially what influence it exerts when the song is lipsinged by the related actor on the silver screen are the deciding factors for the success of a song. The spectators or the audience while accepting or rejecting a song hardly thinks in how many octaves the singer has sung the song. Every type of song whether, romantic, patriotic, sad or happy has a distinct character or “Mejaj” of it’s own. The successful singer is he who is able to deliver the voice commensurate with the character or “Mejaj” of the song.
That is why one can easily identify “O duniyan ke rakhwale” or “Zindabaad” that these are high pitch songs without going into investigation in to octaves in which the singer has sang the song. Similarly one can easily identify “Shiva Shankari or Shyamala dandakam as classical songs simply by listening to them.
I shall continue the discussion in my next post.At the moment I am in U.S. and it is late night now.
Bhaskar murthy – 2121
Interesting post on date of births of musicians and numerology.
I have a caught one new point from your post. Keeping dates apart, both ghantasala and rafi are born in the month of december – a common month – this is my discovery. (all other film playback singers are born in different months)
Rajeev -2119,20 – good post.
Musharraf ji,
You have written
“I admit that Ghantasala was classical and also filmy but his classical part over-shadowed his non-classical part.About Rafi I would like to say that he was more filmy than Ghantasala.”
I disagree. Ghantasala was just perfect equally on filmy lines as he was in classical lines. This you can understand better only if you are well conversant with the telugu industry and its filmy culture. Both filmy and classical he was 100% perfect and successful.
Music lovers,
I do not know how much interested are music lovers in numerology, which is based upon number system. In numerology the number 4 & 6 are generally connected with music – generally these numbers indicate talent and success as a musician. The famous musicians who are born with number 4 as their date of birth include : Ghantasala (4th dec.) Pt. Bhimsen joshi (4th Feb.) Kishore kumar (aug. 4th) S P Balasubrahmanyam (4th June), mukesh (22nd june – 2 + 2 = 4) P suseela (nov. 13th 1+3=4) P B Sreenivas (sept. 22nd – 2+2=4) etc. are some of the famous singers known. The great saint devotee composer Sri Thyagaraja’s date of birth is 4th May. – salutations to the great devotee saint.
and those born under influence of number 6 includes mohd rafi (dec. 24th – 2+4=6), talat mehmood (feb. 24th – 2+4=6) M balamuralikrishna (july 6th) – one the greatest classical musician of the south.
Most commonly, the number 4 has more profound influence on musicians, though number 6 too has found to have good influence. Similarly in some cases – fewer instances those born under number 1 have also been found to be successful musicians, but in general and in majority of the cases, the number 4 seems to be more connected with music and musician.
contd to previous post on music and high pitch octave compositions.
Next, SPB remembers many of his songs, not only his songs but songs of many other singers word by word even today – really a very magnificient memory to be wondered at. But does anybody know that when a person is remembering a song, I can vouch hundred percent he is diluting his concentration on musical notes and has loose control on musical notes. Generally such persons land in textbook style rendering rather landing in rendering songs in perfect musical language. A perfect musician never remembers a song but sings the song according to the notes given to him. To be more clear, the concentration is more on the notes and bhava factor than concentration on remembering the song itself. After rendering the composition is generally forgotten and again for another new composition again the same procedure –
Really, many do not know how much tough is music. It is not a easy job.
how much tough is music.
how much tough is music.
One should be gifted by god to be blessed in music.
I was told ghantasala generally does not remember the song he has sung earlier, but if the notes are given to him he simply again renders it based upon the notes given to him and it again comes as it is to the earlier rendition – that is called command over true music language – it should be talked in terms of notes.
I am generally surprised to note one point always – SPB himself says he is not trained much in music – but advises each and every singer in his t v programmes to learn music to sing a song – Why so ? There lies the answer for importance of music.
Hello music lovers, I am also a music lover and trained in carnatic music. Musharraf ji, rafi ji did sing high pitch songs sure, which you mentioned o duniya ke rakhwale, zindabad zindabad song etc. but just I wanted to tell you that a person who has learnt music first clearly tries to know that what is high pitch ? Simply going and singing tara sa note in high pitch – countless people in india can sing – that is not the fact, just see the song which you claim is in high pitch is composed in how many notes i.e. to be more clear one has to asseess how much notes from lower to higher the voice is able to cover without any strain. For your kind information, both o duniya ke rakhwale and zindabad zindabad are composed only in two octaves i.e. in middle octave and higher octave and maximum notes these two octaves could cover are in total only 15 notes. If it is a three octave composition, i.e. composition in lower, medium and higher octaves simultaneously, the maximum notes will come around 22 and for rendering this range – a wider voice range is required and this wider voice range certainly is only qualified to render truly high pitch compositions. Thus, real test of rendering high pitch composition can be passed only if the song is composed in 3 octaves and the number of notes i.e. more than 15 should have been comfortably rendered to qualify for really able to succeed in a high pitch composition. Both the rafi songs mentioned above hardly cover 13 to 14 notes at the maximum, whereas the high pitch songs of ghantasala are clearly in the range of 16 to 17 notes quite comforably rendered – so ghantasala has a wider voice range than rafi thus easily capable of rendering hight pitch numbers comfortably than rafi for sure. Ustad bade gulam ali khan could clearly catch around 21 notes so was bmk of the south around 25 notes – a feat worth astonishing. These are the voices which fulfil the qualifications for rendering high pitch. Musharraf ji, Can you show any song of rafi (for my interest) which is composed in three octaves simultaneously like the siva sankari or syamala dandakam of ghantasala (these are not only composed in extreme high pitches but as well carry extremely difficut taans to render that too in high pitches in higher octave). Singing high pitch notes in a two octave composition is really not a difficult job, and sure an ordinary man will certainly think that such songs are really sung in high pitch, which in reality are not so according to musicians. I hope musharraf ji, you now got what really is meant by singing of high pitch songs. SPB can hardly cover 12-13 notes simultaneously without straining his voice – not beyond that – there are some rafi fans who think spb is a talented singer, but see his voice range is only that much, many of his songs are composed in medium octave only (many of his songs in thousands) and mostly lacks originality – a text book style reproducing. SPB never has a really challenging classical composition in his thousands of songs – I do not know what Mr. Swamithan Iyer wants to prove by claiming that at least SPB does some justice to original whereas others murder the original – in fact there are more talented singers in the south than spb – this is clearly an absurd statement – but sure none has ever come close to ghantasala in perfection.
A great site and a great topic running into almost more than 2100 messages and perhaps the only article which envisages discussion on mohd rafi with the south indian film singers – though such comparison is simply not possible as hindi and southern film industries were in a way different. A good attempt by the author swaminathan iyer to prove that rafi as a singer is better than the south indian singers – to a large extent he is correct, rafi creates attraction as compared to almost all south indian singers, of course the exception being the greatest ghantasaala mastaru garu , and Mr. Iyer has rightfully excluded him in comparison with rafi as Mr. Iyer knew very well that ghantasala alone was exception and incomparable. In my view, I am quite clear if on healthier lines and on pure musical lines if an argument and debate is made between who is best playback singer between rafi and ghantasala, if we compare at least the 10 greatest genres/songs sung by both these legends, ghantasaala stands to have a far and clear edge over his hindi counterpart. This is not with a intention to put down rafi ji as a singer, he was one of the greatest and accomplished melodious singers in hindi – no doubt about it. The only reason for my view is by virtue of his versatile knowledge and talent ghantasala could create such gems for which there is no comparison. The Bhagavad geetha – many have sung including spb, yesudas, bmk from the south etc. etc. but none is even close to ghantasala’s rendition of the same. This is only one album – there are others where he is incomparable & supreme as a filmy playback singer.
Musharraf ji,
If you are interested, we can discuss further, after receiving your response on my previous post on songs of ghantasala in various genres of playback singing (other than classical and semi classical)
musharraf ji,
forgot one point. Siva sankari, dinakara subhakara are filmy devotional songs and not classical devotional songs. As already said, all of his songs whether devotional or otherwise, have that strong classical touch. Whatever areas such as happy, sad, qawali, romantic etc. you have mentioned for rafi, ghantasala was a master expert in all of them and had his incomparable contributions in all the possible departments of playback singing. In fact, an additional genre, padyam is not present in hindi and this genre of playback singing ghantasala was master par excellence without any comparison. Hope your points are clarified.
Musharraf ji
Thanks a lot for your post. First of all musharraf ji, we want to put up a small point. There is absolutely no intention to compare rafi and ghantasala but we replying only to your post to some of your incomplete views. Your positive views are immensely respected and we too wish that both the legends live for long in the hearts of music lovers.
Mr. Murthy in his post 2112 is absolutely correct. Pl. refer to post 2106 of Mr. Girish for updating your views. I hope there is nothing more to clarify. I request you kindly to note that, which you also will agree, There is no playback singer in India except ghantasala, who was simultaneously an accomplished versatile playback singer with undisputed dominance, accomplished classical musician, and accomplished music director. Ghantasala used to give classical concerts while simultaneously ruling the film industry. Post 2107 of sekhar ji will clarify your doubts wherein he clearly mentions that all of ghantasala’s filmy renditions have expertise of his strong classical base and simultaneously filmy perfection. This should close the issue. The fact is he has used his expert classical talent to all his filmy renditions as well, which gave a special beauty to all his filmy songs. You would be able to appreciately perfectly, if you are well conversant with the culture and language for more knowledge on ghantasala.
Musical experts & even musical critics in the south say that a perfect musical composition par excellence should consist of navarasas – ghantasala has invoked all the navarasas in all his renditions. The perfection par excellence. This is the experts view. Musical experts have rated telugu version of chal ud ja re panchi as a better rendition than the hindi version (even the great rafi had admitted this) Only hardcore rafi fans will say that rafi has sung it better, despite rafi himself saying the contrary.
Anyhow, all the best, i repeat your words long live rafi and ghantasala in the hearts of music lovers.
dear sri musharrafji,
further to my post 2112, rafi fans like you should understand and realise that ‘classical’ doesnot necessarily mean ‘devotional’ and ‘classical touch’ is not restricted or confined to ‘devotional songs only’. in telugu films, the music directors of yesteryears, keeping in view the ‘classical perfection’ of ghantasala, made many tough and tougher compositions in various genres, rasas and pitches for the songs sung by ghantasala. one classical example is, there is one song ‘raave na cheliya’ in the film ‘manchimanasuku manchi rojulu’ in 1958. the song was purely a romantic song and the classical touch given by ghantasala to that song was simply mindblowing. the music directors, while composing the songs, took the advantage of his classical background in such a way that the songs were rendered by ghantasala so beautifully and melodiously. and this was not the case with other film singers in india. and this is the reason why the songs of ghantasala are so unique and special. in my next post to you, i will give a list of romantic songs sung by ghantasala with classical touch to know how beautifully he rendered non-devotional songs also. further, you commented in your 2111 that just because rafi praised ghantasala it doesnot mean that ghantasala was better than rafi. in the same vein, ghantasala also praised rafi for his singing ability. does it mean that rafi was better than ghantasala? certainly no. just because lataaji was awarded bharata ratna, it doesnot mean other female singers are not on par with her. in fact asha is more versatile and fluent than lataji. regards.
DearMurthyJi,
Please do not get me wrong. I did not wany to say that Ghantasala was known for his classical songs in telegu only. What I wanted to say that his best songs were the classical ones which were much better than his non-classical songs. I have gone through the post 1892 of Khan Sahab in the Raf-Kishore website. But interstingly, Mr. Khan has helped to establish my views that Ghantasalas area was classical music. If you go through Mr.Khan’s post you will find that the lion part of his description centered around Ghantasala”s cabability of changing his voice according to the nature of ragas in classical music. As example He cited Ghantasala of making his voice sweet for Bhoop and Kalyan rag and dynamic and majestic for Bhimpalas and Sohani. But he remained silent as to whether this changing of voice extended to non- classical areas such as, fast songs songs, slow songs, happy songs sad songs, romantic songs, patriotic songs, qawalis etc. He also did not throw any light on contribution of Ghantasala in non-classical areas by quoting some songs of Ghantasala what we Rafi fans can immediately quote relating to Rafi.
Rafi had the amazing capacity to change his voice according to the actor for which he sings. When Shammi kapoor sings” Tareef karu kya uski jisne tumhe banaya” in Kashmir ki kali it appears that as if Shammi Kapoor was singing or when he was singing for Dilip Kumar, ” Aye hai baharon mite zulma sitam” in Ram aur Shyam it appeared that Dilip himself was singing.
And from where you have learnt that Rafi used to struggle in high pitch songs” Have you listened to ” O dunuyan ke rakhwale” or ” Zindabad, Aye mohabbat zindabaad” and many other high pitch songs sung by him?. One of the major strong areas of Rafi was singing high pitch songs.
I admit that Ghantasala was classical and also filmy but his classical part over-shadowed his non-classical part.About Rafi I would like to say that he was more filmy than Ghantasala. I think many of your and Siriji’s question have been answered by Dhaniramji in post 1114 in Rafi-Kisore’s website. I would also request you to read post 1907 of Dhaniraamji in the same website which you may find embarrassing and difficult to answer.
dear sri musharrafiji,
again you got it all wrong vide your post 2111. i advise you to first read and understand the post 1892 of sri khanji in the website of rafi-kishore website and then write about ghantasala. you are totally wrong in saying that ghantasala is known for his classical songs in telugu. in fact he added classical touch to most of his songs because of his classical background and this doesnot mean that he is fit for classical songs. your comments clearly mean that your knowledge of telugu songs is very poor. please understand that ghantasala sang in all navarasas with great aplomb. as far as the telugu version of chal ud jaare panchi is concerned, rafi himself admitted that ghantasala sang much better than himself. moreover, his control and command over highpitched songs is really amazing and unbelieavable whereas rafi used struggle in highpitched songs and this was the reason why lataji preferred to sing with ghantasala the song kuhu kuhu in hindi but ghantasal refused to sing because of his respect for rafi. no telugu man till date said that ghantasala was fit for classical songs. how can you say that he was fit for classical songs only. for your kind information, ghantasala was an accomplished classical singer too and he gave many concerts in india and abroad. his voice was both filmy and classical whereas rafi wasnot known much for classical touch in his songs. in fact his classical touch to many songs has added beauty and melody to those songs and show me one more film singer in india who was both filmy and classical on the scale of ghantasala. regards.
Siriji, Shekharji, Girishji, Murthyji & Vitthalji,
Firstly I would like to thank you for your kind comments that you have posted in response to my post. I would also want to make it clear that I do not have any intention to put Ghantasala down in any way and I have enormous respect for him. Then I would like to say that in my views Ghantasala is a very great singer having tremendous classical background. I have listened to many of his songs and in my opinion his best songs are devotional songs based on classical approach. Example. Shiva Sankari, Dinkara Shubhakara and many other songs. I came to this conclusion because I have also listened to his non-classical numbers too in You-tube and other websites. Example, there are some non-classical songs in the album “Aani Muthyaalu”. But these could not match his classical based songs. The reason is his voice itself is more suited to classical songs than non-classical ones.His Bhagwad Geeta shlokas are also very beautiful. There are classical touches present every where. In my humble opinion the genious of Ghantasala puts him in the area of pure classical music and he would have created a sensation if he pursued classical music as Ostaad Aamir khan or Bade Ghulam Ali. But since he was a very gifted singer he also made success in film industry in the south.
Rafi on the other hand did not have that classical level as that of Ghantasala. But he has such a voice that was suited all types of film songs, sad, happy, fast,slow, classical, semiclassical, romantic, patriotic, qawalis. And particularly his melodious voice touches the hearts of the people. The voice that is so soft in “Abhi na jao Chhod kar” becomes so bold when he sings”Ab tumhare hawale watan sathiyon” or “Zindabaad, aya mohabbat zindabaad”. This diversity of his voice made him rule Bollywood for at least two decades amid tough competitors like manna dey, Kishore Kumar, Talaat mahmood, Mukesh etc. His songs “Tu ganga ki mouj”, or “Duniyan ke rakhwale” are still in the lips of the people. Even his classical based songs such as”Madhuban mey radhika nache” or “Nach man mora magan dhig dha” have had a tremendous effect. That is why Rafi has had such a wide range of popularity unmatched in the history of Bollywood.He was out an out a playback singer. His popularity had crossed the national boeders and spread out internationally.
Murthyji, Shekharji, Rafi was a very humble type of man. He may have praised Ghantasala for singing ‘Payaniniche o Chiluka’. But it is for the public and the musical experts to decide which song is better. The fact that Ghantasala has sung the song in a higher scale does not qualify to have an edge over the hindi one. And Shekharji the end part of the songs(Both Hindi &Telegu) is not “Taan”. It is just going to end the song in a higher note. “Taan” is the part of classical songs that is in “Shiva Shankari’.” Dinkara Shubhakara”, “Kuhu Kuhu” and it’s Teleguversion. Normally “Taan” stays in the end and comes after ‘Aalaap” in the pure classical presentation of “Ragas”.
Long live Mohammed Rafi and Ghantasala in the hearts of the music lovers!
Musharraf ji,
As a rafi fan, I can understand your post but fully agree to disagree as a ghantasala fan. Even your view on lata mangeshkar, there might be differing opinions. Lata is incomparable among female singers for sure. Swaminathan Iyer has mentioned all south indian singers with the exception of only ghantasala – iyer knew the facts.
contd.. musharraf ji, next, kuhu kuhu telugu version of ghantasala was better than both rafi and lata as well. There was a duet song in telugu of lata and ghantasala shared by Mohan ji here, few posts back – ghantasala is ahead than lata in the number specially in the range of the song, where he is at ease – his strong voice was the factor there. Lata was a well trained hindusthani musician, so there can be no complaints in her songs. She was accurately perfect – it is the nightingales’s voice. She should not be compared to any male singer (though I have replied only to your views on her with comparing others) and she is the most admired and numero one singer among females in india. Another singer similarly was P susheela of the south, like lata mangeshkar, incidentally I heard that recently, SPB had stated that there is a proverb that p suseela and s janaki of the south are the lata and asha of the north, why cannot it be called that lata and asha are the suseela and janaki of the north ? Similarly, there are also many comments that ghantasala was the rafi of the south, but i heard that that many ghantasala fans say that rafi is the ghantasala of bollywood.
Musharraf ji – sorry for the mistake in my previous post over lata’s rendering in tajmahal – it is the second para of lata – where she is accurate par excellence. Next the line “ki anmit kahani hai too” (not from tajmahal) was from the song from asli naqli – mohd rafi and lata – tujhe jeevan ki dor se – lata was unbeatable – Next sau saal baad pehle -lata is more melodious than rafi in this particular number – kuhu kuhu song lata is ahead than rafi. Both were evergreen singers of bollywood.
Musharrafi ji
“the songs Rafi’s ones has supassed Latas’ by miles” – what is this childish statement.
The tajmahal song – lata too did well – specially the words in the second para – ki anmit kahani hai too – the soft voice touch of lata is mind blowing – just do not put other legends down – rafi is definitely great, for this to be proved – other legends need not be shown in poor light. lata was lata and surely no match for her as well, – well kuhu kuhu many say lata was better than rafi in the number – ghantasala was anyway clearly ahead of both rafi and lata. i do not think you can support your post if you compare ghantasala and rafi on only 10 to 20 greatest songs sung by both in which case ghantasala is surely going to have a edge, as some of his very tough songs belong to such genres (other than classical), where he was surely incomparable. See musharaff ji, what I was given to understand that almost all of ghantasala songs have that strong classical base, which he maintained throughout his filmy songs as well, which too were incidentally accurately perfect from the filmy point of view as well. Whereas rafi maintained the filmy effect throughout, but did not have that strong classical base of ghantasala. Naturally, almost all of ghantasala songs appear tougher and hard to sing – that was his speciality and perhaps the reason why he could dominate each and every singer whoever came in his way in his industry. Surely, his technical expertise was a major factor to be reckoned for his evergreen success in his industry. Next, I do not think rafi excelled in any way over ghantasala in chal ud re panchi song – the control on the song by ghantasala was amazing as compared to rafi who appears slipping at many places in the song especially in the first and last taans (lengthy last taan at high pitch – where ghantasala was mind blowing) – of course, you yourself have commented that taans ghantasala surpasses rafi. Moreover, I too heard that similar to murthy 2010’s post here, that rafi had commented that ghantasala has rendered the song in a better way than his number. I agree with you that rafi’s voice was soft but not that stronger and deep or sharp as of ghantasala who incidentally too had a soft voice display depending upon the songs. Regarding melody, both had melodious voices – depending upon the songs the attraction comes in a different way for both.
2102 post – Musharaff sahab
Why are you trying to compare a hindi legend with a telugu legend ? Rafi ji was peerless in hindi and numero one singer in bollywood. No body could match vocals or diction or melody or talents of ghantasala in the south – this is a fact. let these two be the north and south pole respectively, I do not see any sense really, in trying to prove that the north pole is greater than the south pole.
Regarding your knowledge on ghantasala – it is totally incomplete going by your post : I will just try to pen few lines as short as possible to give you more insight about him.
You have written :
“The success of a playback singer depends on many factors and not on the basis of the classical ability only”.
Ghantasala was the peerless, without competition, most accomplished “playback singer” (not a classical singer) in the south as long as he was alive (his illustrious and accomplished career spanned for nearly 30 years with undisputed dominance in the telugu film industry) – a feat unparalleled and unachieved by any other singer. You need to have a better knowledge of his contribution, versatality, talents, skills and specialisation as a musician to understand him. He is called as the man with the “most majestic voice” – see encyclopaedia on him.
2102 – Musharraf ji,
Both kuhu kuhu and chal ud ja re panchi in hindi sung by rafi have been sung by ghantasala in telugu (suvarna sundari number being original) and rafi himself acknowledged and stated that both the songs were better and attractively rendered by ghantasala. More so, rafi had stated that telugu version of chal ud ja re panchi was sung in a higher pitch more beautifully by ghantasala. Going by your version, if we compare both on at least 10 or 20 songs, certainly ghantasala is going to have a edge, given the rendition of his various tough genres. One point, much fuss is created about kuhu kuhu song which telugu people consider only as a left hand game song for ghantasala – in fact he has rendered many times more tougher genres and songs (other than classical and semi classical numbers) than the kuhu kuhu number, for which rafi is shown at. Now you can draw conclusions. I will definitely submit and surrender to your post, if you state that you are better qualified than rafi himself on your post.
You have mentioned :
The real test would be if Ghantasala was given to sing Abhi na jao chod kar, aise to na dekho or Yeh mera prem patra.
Are these songs really tougher than at least the kuhu kuhu number ? Well, I can give songs in hundreds of ghantasala, where no singer can come close, but I do not want to create dispute here. By the way, there are even tougher songs than siva sankari rendered by ghantasala with ease.
Rafi sahab is a very great melodious singer in hindi, let the posts come keeping in view the dignity of this everlasting legend.
post 2102, sri musharrafji,
the telugu version of chal ud jaa re paanchi sung by ghantasala was better than the hindi version and rafi himself made this confession that ghantasala was better than himself in this song. so now it is no use for you trying to prove the otherway round. also, i advise you to refer and read the post 1892 of mr khan in rafi-kishore website to have a better understanding of the singing capabilities of ghantasala and rafi. regards.
Nicely written article. However I would differ with Mr. Iyer when he says that Lata Mangeshkar has no comparison. Actually it is Mohammed Rafi who has no comparison. He virtually ruled the Bollywood music world for about two decades and dominated all co-singers whether male or female and that includes Lata Mangeshkar too. If one listens to the innumerable Lata-Rafi duets he can clearly see how Rafi has dominated Lata. To quote a few ” Jo wada kiya wo nibhana padega, Paon chhu lene do phoolon ko(Taajmahal), Sow saal pahle mujhe tumse pyar etc.etc. The difference is more clear when you listen to the same song sung by both Rafi and Lata. Mere mehboob tujhe mere mohabbat ki kasam(Mere Mehboob), Ehsaan tera hoga mujh par(Junglee). In both the songs Rafi’s ones has supassed Latas’ by miles. The list may be longer. We know Lata has a voice like a nightangle and she is the best among the female singers. But when it comes to comparing with Rafi, Rafi stays above Lata.
Post2072, Commonmanji
This is true that the Telegu version of Kuhu kuhu was better sang by Ghantasala than Rafi. But on the basis of one song one can not draw any conclusion that Ghantasala can surpass Rafi. If you compare Rafi’s Chal ud jaa re panchi with Payaniniche o chiluka, the Telegu version of this song you will see how Rafi excelled over Ghantasala. The reason is that Rafi’s voice has the softness, appeal and melody that strikes the heart of the listner more than the Ghantasala number. Ghantasala definitely had a classical edge over Rafi. His voice is strong deep. But Rafis voice is soft and melodious that has tremendous effect and appeal. The real test would be if Ghantasala was given to sing Abhi na jao chod kar, aise to na dekho or Yeh mera prem patra. The success of a playback singer depends on many factors and not on the basis of the classical ability only. Many people believe that Manna dey also had a classical edge over Rafi which may be correct.But still then Manna Dey could not surpass Rafi because the tremendous range and magic of Rafi’s voice which enabled Rafi to sing all types of filmy songs better than Manna Dey. I can qoute 10 or 20 best songs of Rafi and then ask the Ghantasala fans to put forward 10 or 20 best songs of Ghantasala to match those songs. I am sure other than Shiva Shankari and Telegu version of Kuhu Kuhu(Those are classical based)or some pure classical numbers which contains mosty “Taan” Ghantasala’s songs won’t be able to match Rafi’s.
I think Mr Swaminatha Iyer has no standards of music. Rafi Sahab was above all that is why he is remembered with such Love. how can Mr Iyer think that millions of Rafi fans be wrong who live all over the world. All singers have their own ways of singing and they have their own following but why be jealous of some one who is liked for his melodious voice and the gift of singing and acting with his voice.
Always a Rafi Fan