True Voice – Mohd Rafi
The following article was brought to my notice when Sharad posted it on MAS. The article has been trimmed down a bit keeping afloat Rafi details. However, anyone interested can go visit the source at http://tfmpage.com/forum/4980.6302.04.57.19.html
I am Swaminatha Iyer and I am 78 years old. I hail from Tiruchi and I am a part of music associations in Tiruchi, M’as as well as in West Bengal and Maharashtra.
I think it is wrong to condemn music or artists on either side of Vindhyas. Our Indian music is one of the few which has not been cleaned off by the western music though there has always been a influence. It speaks a lot of the richness of our music. Sometime back director of MTV had said that MTV westernized the music wherever it went but in India , MTV had to be Indianized for it to be accepted. A lot of this credit goes to the Indian film music.
I have been fortunate to have close personal association with Rafi, Sirkali, TMS, Dr. BMK, Kishore, SPB & KJY, PS, Mannadey and the one and only Lata Mangeshkar.
Comparisons are bound to come, but almost every artist or I have met considers Lata to be beyond comparison. Her talents are beyond anyone’s reach. Even Sirkazi used to talk of her singing like a die-hard fan as do countless others.
Now coming to the Rafi-SPB discussion. It might be difficult to convince an South Indian to believe Rafi is the better and at the same time Rafi crowd will never believe any other male singer comes anywhere nearer. There is one more mobile crowd, which is well conversant with Hindi and some south Indian language. Majority of them tilt to either Rafi or Kishore.
During one of my stays in M’as I had stayed with SPB. While talking of true voices he said, I don’t feel like half a singer when listening to Rafi. True voice is not a tech term but many in circle use it. Perfect example would be lata, but to understand consider our own PS who within her range is superb. People who do not have such true voices can never do justice to original. They generally underplay many parts of the song or fake it with bass/superficial singing. True voices make people like Sirkazi, Nusrat Fateh Ali khan, Lata… Inimitable. However since Sirkazi and Nusrat did not have the filmy voices their “real” following is limited to their local arena.
In addition to the true voice if the singer has a very good voice then in “most” cases he/she can better songs of others. It is this combination which makes Rafi stand out among the other male singers. There are many here who seem to have mistaken notions on a good bass and also on high pitch.
Bryan Adams does not require a monster bass in “Summer of 69” to sound real manly. It is the punch which gives that feel and that is decided only by the comfort level in most ranges (that is by what your throat can support). This you CAN never disguise with bass. Since people have talked about lack of manly voice viz. a viz. Rafi it was necessary to bring this point out. I have had the fortune of listening to most singers in studio and some times without a mike, practicing with MD’s.When Lata or Rafi do, the level is so high that people hesitate to even hum. It felt silly to sing in their presence (and it feels silly when someone says his voice isn’t manly).
In RD’s tribute when SPB sang “Aaja Aaja mein hoon” or “Chaand mera dil” it sounded only sweet and lacked punch if you compare with Rafi’s original.
Yesu once told me God has been partial to Rafi. He said “god gift term anavasyamaa romba common aa ippo use aardu”.. but idu Rafi kee thaan 100% porundu”. This person could sing “as intricately as a lady without sounding thin”, “cover any mood”, “versatility odey perfect example Rafi”. Yesu said most important is the comfort level over ranges which makes you feel God has been partial to Rafi. (But Of course in Rafi’s early career (1950’s) the voice was relatively feeble).
To people exposed to Rafi’s talent, these or any amount of praise can only seem less. I just wish he was alive and you people could get a live chance to hear him. Probably you can get hold of the DD album for the Geet Gaata Chal series where the first four episodes were dedicated to Rafi. Rafi is on camera singing “O Duniya Ke Rakwaaley” and many other songs. If you see and hear the last part you will realize why SPB said “impossible”. I think particularly those people who have talked about scales w.r.t Rafi should see this album. Its a known fact in industry that Rafi ruled high pitch and there is no male singer better in switching notes so easily. There are artists who can go beyond but then they sound strained or they don’t have pleasant voices when they venture into those territories.
Many singers of today are his compulsive followers. But they end up inheriting only part of his quality. Md. Aziz ended up with a sad voice. Mahendra Kapoor with a thick nasal voice. Anwar with a nasal voice. Sonu Nigam with a feminine voice. Rafi neither had a soft voice nor a heavy (bass) voice he had a good voice. Importantly did not strain at high notes, and voice if at all only became better at higher notes. If you see him singing it will remind you of Janaki. However diff the song is or the note is he will be smiling and singing. It is unthinkable that he cannot sing something.
There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo” song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect. There are lot of other songs of SPB where this great singer has played with songs in total control. You will find most south Indian singers who have had a good exposure say that it is beneficial to learn Hindustani as it gives better breath control and improves expression.
Rafi was not only able to glide over a song, the important thing was that he could express each word/sound when singing. It is one thing to hold your breath, start and reach a crescendo (high note), as like in “Shankara”, “Anbey (Yennai kaan villaye)” it is different ballgame if you have to do it from low notes or suddenly switch notes. With practice the former can be done, latter requires a special gift. Rafi had a natural ability to do the latter. In “Tum joh mil gaye ho” there is such a transition in the “karwaan mil gaya” part. I have never seen anyone do justice to most of his songs in my life time. In “parda hai parda” quawaali the similar part is “kar doon to, Akbar mera naam”. In fact most of his songs will have these specialty as it was his natural ability to sing freely in a wide range at the same time giving that extra expression.
Whereas SPB takes us to heavens with “Idu oru pon maali”,”Ilaya nila” “bisiladarenu”(kannada), when he sings Rafi’s song it lacks the punch or expression, though it has the bass. But at least most agree that SPB does some justice to original, whereas most others murder the original.
One trivial point I would like to add is that singing in Hindi is harder. There are more “JHA”,”CHA”,”HA”,”THA”, “KHA”,”JA”,”FA”. These take away the breath faster. The more expressive you are the more air you are using up. Just singing from Nabhi will not help, your throat also needs to do a lot, for singing in Hindi, Bengali etc. SPB makes you fall in love with his south Indian songs but same cannot be said about his Hindi songs. If you just glide through words having these sounds, you will never be expressive. Doing this as well as reaching high notes is not easy. Rafi had this gift and that’s why it is difficult to imagine anyone else in his shoes. Song “Chalkaaye jaam” has so much expression that it is unthinkable how anyone can sing it. When Rafi switches to a high note with “Mitwaa” in the song “Chaahunga mein tughey” you cannot replicate it with bass. Most others will sound as if they are shouting in such cases. That man’s throat had the ability to freely sing at such levels.
Versatility is not just the ability to sing in various styles, more important is how good you are singing in those styles. You have lot of Ghazal singers today but when Rafi sings a Ghazal you will sit up and take notice. You don’t have to be part of the Ghazal listeners crowd. This is one important aspect. Whatever style you sing you should be able to pull the common man to listen and not just a particular crowd. Pick “parda hai parda” or any qawalli and it will stand tall among other qawalli’s.
Variety is amazing :
songs of Guru Dutt’s Khagaz key phool or songs like abhi naa jao chod key, Aaja teri yaad aayi, Aaj kal mein dhal gaya, Aaj kal terey merey pyaar, Aasmaan sey aaya farishta, Dil ney pyaar kiya hai, Deewana mujh saa nahi, Din dhal jaaye, Duniya paagal hai, Jaane walon jara, Dil joh na kaha saka, Dil key jharokon mein, Dil kaa bhavar, Chalkey teri aakkhon sey, Kar chaley hum fida, khilona jaan kar tum, Woh jab yaad aay, Woh hain jara khafa, Vaadian mera daaman, Pathar key sanam, Chaand mera dil, Main zindagi kaa saath, Mainey poocha chaand sey, sun sun jaalima, Koi jab raah na paay, hum to chaley pardes, badan pey sitaarey, laal chadi maidaan, Tum jo mil gaye, O meri shaahey, Sau baar janam lengey, Tum mujhey yoon bhula, Tumney mujhey dekha, Terey merey sapney, Tumny pukaara hum chaley aay
Name a situation/mood and Rafi’s song will be there on the top.
Swami
Dear fellow Rafians,
My post is addressed to you and only you, not to the folks who visit this site in the guise of being rafi fans and try to put him down at every opportunity. I’m sure you know whom I am referring to, the types who come here and say that the two singers are like the north pole and the south pole but then add that the south pole is better, or that they are like the right eye and the left eye but that the left eye has better vision. Perhaps if hindi film music was under the control of these knowledgeable people instead of under Naushad, S. D. Burman, Shankar-Jaikishan, O. P. Nayyar, Madan Mohan and Roshan, it would have been much better because the latter group might not have have had the sophisticated ear needed for identifying the right male singer for their compositions.
Anyway, let us be happy that our idol was given the chance to perform, otherwise he might have had to pack his bags and leave for Lahore!
Friends, this year marks the 35th death anniversary of two giants of hindi film music — sachin dev burman and madan mohan. In addition to the mutual respect they had for one another, they shared one thing in common — quality control. In particular, I would like to point out the exceptional voice quality of singers when singing under their baton.
I am posting below a compilation of MM-Rafi songs created by the Madan Mohan group. In this video, you’ll hear the maestro’s voice morphing into the farishta’s voice. You will also hear the nightingale at her best when singing for her favourite composer, but then you’ll realize that even the stupendously beautiful Kanchenjunga has to acknowledge the majesty of the Everest. He just puts that extra spin on his delivery by prolonging “aankhon”. In this video, you’ll find a lot of people who adored the farishta (Pt. Shivkumar Sharma, Dharmendra, Chetan Anand, Raj Kumar, Sanjeev Kumar, Majrooh Sultanpuri, Sunil Dutt, Jaidev and last, but not the least, the great Madan Mohan).
Listen to what Madan Mohan calls the “zara hatke” song and see how Rafi extends the persian “jahan” to encompass the universe. And the brilliant music arrangement of Kersi Lord, Rafi’s next-door neighbour for 18 years. It is too much to expect any other singer to bring out the vocal effect of these eight songs. Also, it is not fair to expect any other singer to outclass the vocal quality in “ek haseen shaam ko”. How about this? Call every singer the country has produced — past, present and future — and ask him to sing just one word of the song: “shaam”. Give them all the time they need and see the effect; they will hang their heads in “shame”. As our dear friend, the late Sandeep Nadkarni, used to say, “Saab was a magician.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNV8H_SHwsA
post 2297. RUMMAN ….DURING CHILDHOOD, MANNA DA – WAS ONE OF THE HEROES OF THE HOUSE. DAD USED TO WORSHIP TALAT SAAB, MANNA DEY SAAB, SAIGHAL SAAB, PANKAJ MALLICK saab, hemant da AND ALL.
he had a good relations with them including k.j.yesudas, the mohd rafi of south.
EVEN SD BURMAN used to call manna da for a song sitting and tell him : “now that u know the song, pls do a sitting with mohd rafi. he would sing the song.”
it was insulting to manna da but he knew the “inner truth” which many many artists would not understand.
once at a jampacked hall, people were asking mohd rafi to sing more songs.
.mr.y.b.chavan was present . it was a maharashtra day festival. all the senior singers were there. said one of them behind the curtains : kya sirf rafi hee hai singing mein?
such outbusts are understandable. remember, in the 60s and 70s it was only mohd rafi among the male singers who ruled the charts.
coming back on manna dey saaheb, my respect for him grows whenever i hear him, meet him or read about him. my wish is to meet him in november this year and seek his blessing.
A request to the moderator of this site-can we put a full stop to this particular thread. Also please do not encourage posts with pseudonyms like “Mr comparator”- it is ridiculous to take the names of people who howl like a fox along with the legends like Rafi sahab / Ghantasala. There is no meaning in your “your comment awaits moderation” if you allow such crap to be posted.
Manna Dey :
“There were some songs of mine that were in a league of their own, but in Raft’s case anything he sang was incredible. In fact there were times my uncle K.C Dey would be composing a tune and I would assist him. Once he was composing a song for a film called Justice and I was assisting him. When the tune was ready he said “Let Rafi know.” I said, “Know what,” and he said, “That the tune is ready and he has to sing this song.” I felt very hurt and said. “why? Can’t I sing it?” My uncle said, “No you cannot, only he can sing this.” I swallowed my pride and fetched him and then after he finished recording, I realized that indeed I could not have sung it as well as he did. “
Dear Music lovers,
Please do not react to comments of one Mr. Comparator here – 2288 and 2294. Some people are like this who cannot,even a bit, tolerate the success and talents of great artists – a clear sign of jealousy – people of these kind are frustrated, they write anything. This man, perhaps, is not able to tolerate the success and rememberance of ghantasala by music lovers, even after 36 years of his passing away. After 36 years, how many artists are remembered like that.
Mr.Comparator,
Can’t agree with you at all. Ghantasalaji is special talent. To the best of my knowledge only two singers (Manna da and Das sir) among all the Indian film singers are classically (if you apply Indian classical singing rules) as accomplished as Ghantasalaji is. His voice, well, a lot of people like it; some don’t. You can’t dismiss it aside as a nasal voice; many (especially classical singers) would love to have that voice.
Hello Common_man
you need not have tons of talent to rule in a budding industry. Just a friend at right place, a few deft moves there and Ghantasala ruled. Do you think all these South Indian heros are exceptional and rare talents who are ruling for decades even after crossing the quintall (100 kg) mark?? In regional industries contact and politics not talent rules. That explains the so called success of Ghantasala.
Why people are discussing regional singers here?? these regional singers are confined to their specific geographical areas…people in west or north might not even heard a name called Ghatasala….people can discuss their greatness on sites dedicated to them…please stop compairing Rafi Saab with anyone.
2286- sandeep ji
Thank you very much for your post after a long time. Hope you have not posted for long in kishore forum also. The song aapne yaad dilaya of rafi-lata is a very interesting one and yes, as you said due to not famous actors, the song is not much played. There are many similar gems of rafi, which have not become much popular or remembered, despite they being musically very great.
2288 – Mr. comparator – Your name itself indicates the problem with you. Mr. Bhushan and mr. common man has already replied to you. Hence no comments.
Srivastavji-2286.
Thank you for the nice post and your admiration for rafi. If all of us can show such mutual respect for each others views we can always enter into healthy debate without compromising in our respective positions. However regarding your contention about Rafi’s edge in singing slow and medium range songs I would only like to add that not only in these two areas, Rafi was equally comfortable in singing all types of songs regardless of their diversity, a quality that placed Rafi clearly above all other playback singers of Indian film industry. And one can easily notice that no songs of Rafi’s particular area fell behind in beauty and charm compared to those of other areas where he rendered his voice.
As regards voice structure, it is god gifted thing that differs from singer to singer. Rafi, Ghantasala, Manna Dey, Talat, Mukesh were all giants in Indian film industry. All of them sang to the best of their ability and expertise. It is only the voice quality that made the difference and put them in different domains where they excelled, Ghantasala classically, Rafi universally. However, as I have stated earlier, both rafi and Ghantasala were outstanding in their respective fields and both have contributed immensely in the Indian film music forum for which they will be remembered long.
Regards.
2288
Some people’s minds always think and analyse wrongly. They cannot see the truth. For time pass, without basic knowledge such comments are made.
“rafi is the greatest singer of all times in india. this is where the problem started. their comment clearly meant that no other film singer can sing as great as rafi in india. they have drawn a comparision between rafi and other singers in india and concluded that rafi is the best of all”
well said. right now as i type this i am listening to “ab kya misaal dhoon main tumhare shabaab ki”. rafi is indeed the greatest singer of all time for the males and lata mangeshkar for the females.
“GHANTASALA WAS NOTHING BUT A HIMESH RESHMMIYA OF HIS TIME. ALL NASAL.”
i consider rafi’s voice to be all around better but ghantasala is definitely not nasal. he does have a resounding voice. himesh reshmiya lasted what…a couple of years? ghantasala ruled for decades. impossible to do that without exceptional, rare talent.
GHANTASALA WAS NOTHING BUT A HIMESH RESHMMIYA OF HIS TIME. ALL NASAL.
Bhushanji, there is a correction. Please read post2283 in my post2284. Post 2281 belongs to Walijah sahab. sorry for the inconvenience.
Regards.
Vitthal ji,
After a long time, since discussions in sister site – kishore forum. In this forum too, I had posted long back. We are actually little busy to regularly participate and carry on discussions, as we are employed in corporate sector. However, on occasions, we visit these sites to hear some nice musical discussions by music lovers here. (i feel sad about the comparisons between the greatest ever singers – rafi and ghantasala)
I agree with you, medium and slow ranges songs perhaps no other hindi singer can be compared to mohd. rafi in any way, not even close. I think only lata in female category could come close.
The junglee film song of rafi is great, however paon choo lene do too is a great song of rafi. Have you heard man re by rafi – a medium range song but soulful and melodious.
Aaapne yaad dilaya from aarti was the great song of rafi and lata from all the songs which you have provided the links – the film aarti song is really a very very nice composition and specially rafi ji has sung it very nicely and beautifully but this song is not much played, might be the reason may be that the actors for the song are not much famous. If a shammi kapoor was there, perhaps the song would have hit more popularity.
2275 – Mr. Bhushan, and 2283- Mr. Musharaff
I have heard the song priye charuseele by ghantasala in your above post mr. Bhushan – There are no words to express my appreciations for the melody, command or expressions rendered by ghantasala – mind blowing as mr. Musharaff says. Not only that I heard other songs of ghantasala provided there, nee madhu murali, dhira sameere, nadu prema bhagya rasi, pralaya payodhijale, – there are no words to describe the happiness felt on hearing these songs. Since they are sanskrit renditions, it does not matter whether one has good knowledge of the language or not.
Dear music lovers including rafi fans, Kindly forget comparisons and arguments for the moment, please do not miss the beauty of the above compositions as well as soulful renditions – magnificient that’s all I can say. Words are short for appreciations for the renditions of the southern legend of legends ghantasala. I am sure if one misses the soulful renditions, great music renditions will be surely missed.
Walijah ji and murthy ji
It is sad to see the fighting messages on two great legends – both incomparable in their own ways – if ghantasala is devout arjuna, rafi is dan veer karna – we know both were pandavas and matchless warriors. Hearing the songs of ghantasala and rafi, it is really difficult to even imagine who is great – of course in my view technically and classically ghantasala has got a clear clear edge, and he has got a magnificient melodious voice god gifted as Mr. Musharaff says, going by these terms all put together, I feel that a musician shall definitely put weightage on ghantasala clearly (no offence meant to rafi please in any way – my highest regards for this hindi legend of legends no doubt about his mastery) as compared to rafi. Hope these comparisons end, as we had enough of that. Simply enjoy great music and renditions as provided in the links above.
Actually, the administrator of this site should be thanked profusely, perhaps no other site has mixture of this type of indian music (south and north) this site is really really a feast to the true music lovers. All the best.
Musharaff ji – 2283
Thank you very much for your post. Yes, you have catched correctly, the song priye charusile is a devotional number on lord krishna. Bhakta jayadeva narrates about a incident with lord krishna, to his wife in the form of a song i.e. he addresses priye charusile, remaining entire song is devotional. Legend goes on to say that Bhakta jayadeva could not pen words in the last line of the song and went for a walk looking for a solution. At that time lord krishna, in the guise of jayadeva came and completed the last line “pada pallava ……” when jayadeva came back from walk he was surprised to see the line completed and praised his wife of good fortune for witnessing the lord in his form. This was the legend and the song. If possible, I request you to hear nee madhu murali and dhira sameere songs from the above link in my previous post. I believe this great devotee jayadeva belonged to bengal and was a historical figure of the 12th century.
J K Bhagchandani ji,
“At that site anti-Rafi-ism has become their bread and butter” – I think this was earlier by some people, but I believe there are some nice guys there, as we see many previous posts – Mr. Arghya, Paramjeet etc. though no posts have been directly addressed and discussed with them, but I felt their posts conveyed sincerity and respect towards rafi of course first preference being given for kishore, which may not be wrong for kishore fans. Fine, there may be some, (like here – lols ) who have to support their idol. Of course, as music lovers even their sentiments needs to be respect with regard to their love for their idol.
Anyhow, bhagchandani ji, I have seen your photo in one of the articles here, and my heart filled with respect for an elder like you ( as I am much younger) and I feel happy to convey that upon full research, in the country the most discussed singers (even their websites) are of mohd rafi, kishore and ghantasala – the messages in their respective sites run into even thousands – all three are personalities who passed away decades back – even the site who popular.com (indian musicians) these people dominate among the top musicians.
Bhushanji,-my post2281.
Raag jay-jayanti may be another possibility that was used for the song priye-charuseele. Please excuse me if I am wrong.
Regards
Bhushanji-post2275,
Thanks for your comments but please don’t be mistaken. I am not a musician but a simple music lover.Regarding classical music my knowledge is not much. However,I have some ideas about a few ragas that I can identify such as Darbari, malkosh, behag etc. Priye Charuseele is yet another mind blowing song of Ghantasala.I don’t find enough words to express my appreciation.I am not sure in which raga it has been tuned. Probably it could be Khambaaj Raagini. But its tune has a resemblence to that of the song “Kaun aya mere man ke dware payal ki jhankar liye” sung by Manna Dey from the film “Dekh kabira roya”. However, I want to know from you whether the love and emotions expressed in the lyrics of this song is divine(meant for creator) or for a lover[Human since it has been addressed to one Charuseele as Priye(dear)]. I don’t understand telegu but some beautiful sanskrit verses in the song have drawn my attention”Tamasi mama jivana, tamasi mama bhushana”(You are my life, you are my decoration”). And lastly he surrenders himself in the “Pada pallaba”(at the feet of the beloved).
Vitthalji-post2279.
Thank you very much for posting the links to the songs of my all time favorite the great Mohammed rafi and Lataji. I reciprocate with my sincere appreciations for your gesture. I being a Rafian have listened to all these three songs countless number of times. These are few of the most melodious songs of Rafi and it gives me immense pleasure to learn that you like them.
However, when I go to quote any song of Rafi from any area, whether, fast or slow, sad or happy, romantic or patriotic, I face a recurring problem.Against each song that I prefer to choose in any area sung by Rafi, at least four songs of an equivalent nature and quality appears and compete with each other that makes difficult for me which one to choose.Taking into consideration this problem I have chosen two songs of Rafi for you and Bhushanji to comment on which are charactaristically quite opposite to one another. One is “Jiyao, jiyao jiya kuchh boldo, arey o dil ki parda kholdo” from the film “Jab pyar kisise hota hai”. And the other is “Manre tu kahe na dhir dhare” from the film “Chitralekha”.
I will appreciate if Bhushanji and yourself kindly pen your views.
Regards.
Murthy 2010 ji (post 2266)
Even though our (I mean your and mine) choices, our approach to music differ, I have great respect for your musical knowledge. I believe that having different choices in music is not a big deal. I always read your posts with lot of eagerness and interest. And I have never tried to argue with you on that in this or any thread. But one point that you mentioned in your post (no. 2266) prompted me to send this post. You said “…… the rafi fans stated in various posts that rafi is the greatest singer of all times in india. This is where the problem started. Their comment clearly meant that no other film singer can sing as great as Rafi in india. They have drawn a comparison between Rafi and other singers in India and concluded that Rafi is the best of all, which naturally irked the fans of other singers to enter this site…….” So my dear Murthy saab what is wrong with that? Is this not Rafi site? What else the fans are supposed to do? Are the sites of other singers not projecting their hero as ‘best in business’?? You have expressed your irritation at Rafi being projected as best. Why? Can you sincerely express same irritation at a neighbouring site where they say so and so is the best. I don’t want to take names but I am sure you are intelligent enough to understand whom I am referring to. At that site anti-Rafi-ism has become their bread and butter. Please show same courage and express your irritation there also.
-J.K. Bhagcahndani
Dear Mr. Murthy,
The writer of this arcticle, Mr. Swami did not mentioned anywhere (even if you read with microscopic eye) the name of Ghantasala. He mentioned so many times SPB. But to my surprise, people started to compare Rafi Saab with Ghantasala which I think the basic mistake of carrying on the arguments and discussions on this thread. Moreover No rafi fan like to show any jeoluosy towards the legend like Ghantasala, only those who do not have first hand knowledge about him and his singing prowess.
Secondly, Rafi and Ghantasala are two separate institutions, that can not be compared at all. One is popular in north and among urdu/hindi speaking people and the second in South India Telugu / Tamil film industry.
Thirdly, there is nothing wrong if Rafi considered to be the greatest singer, how can you deny the truth which is a truth indeed. Even Telugu and Hindi films have a vast contrast in cultures and customs, even the movies which made in telugu mostly of janapadam, Pouranikam. sanghikam which most Ghantasala songs covered in that period.
Fourthly, it is not nice to bring any controversial matter to generate more rift and temsion between the two groups of fans. I just want to pacify both the groups and come the conclusion that both the legends are right in their places, things and singing philosophy. If time permits me I would like to draw a brief sketch between the legends the similarities they both possess.
I have no hard feelings with you or any Ghantasala fan, since I myself belong to Hyderabad and am well aware of Telugu which was my first language in school though I love urdu and english immensely.
Thank you
H.A.K. Walijah
Email: mastan_62@rediffmail.com
dear mr walijah – post 2266
i advise you to read my post 2251 properly before putting up your post. i reiterate that i stand by what i mentioned in my post 2251 as the incident was narrated by none other than the wife of ghantasala. i did not fabricate anything and i have a copy of the book in which she wrote about that incident. next, i never pointed my finger at either rafi or other stalwart of hindi. i only stated the feelings of jealousy from some hindi film great personalities. i do not know whether those great personalities included rafi or others as named by you in your post. further, i did not conclude in my post that this incident was the only reason that prevented ghantasala from singing in navrang hindi movie. please read my post carefully. if you can understand telugu, i will scan the page of the book covering the above incident and mail to you if you give me your email id and you can read it for yourself or alternatively you can contact any telugu speaking person for narration into hindi to understand. okay? i am ready to prove what i wrote. i am not a blind fan like some rafi fans in this site to support ghantasala. looking forward to your response.
do you know the actual reason for the intrusion of ghantasala in to this rafi site? the rafi fans stated in various posts that rafi is the greatest singer of all times in india. this is where the problem started. their comment clearly meant that no other film singer can sing as great as rafi in india. they have drawn a comparision between rafi and other singers in india and concluded that rafi is the best of all, which naturally irked the fans of other singers to enter this site. understood? regards.
Musharaff ji
This is a song of rafi-lata from aarti – one of my favourites.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO5SKkarvwo
This one from junglee – these type of medium ranges and songs – rafi’s songs are great.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCzSMI6_dHs
And this nice one from tajmahal, did not become much famous similar to the one jo wada kiya woh nibhana padega
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFvw_ZlxzQI
Musharaff ji – fine with your views
Friends,
Madan mohan ji was a gifted music director, says S P B in one of his recent programmes, in fact he even said that madan mohan was not an expert in music, but was a expert in composing music, that was a gift to him. He further said that there is no special talent like madan mohan in bollywood.
Dhani ram ji & Haldar ji
Ref to your posts 2271 & 2273 -theanks a lot for reminding us on one of the greatests songs in Hindi film music which brought together the legends Rafi, Talat & Manna da. Each had sung with his typical style which only a genius like Madan mohan can bring out. I recently read about the incident narrated by Haldar ji about Rafi sahab singing by standing on a stool. Ask any of the recent “so called stars” of talent shows (or their judges with their bloated egos) do this today-even they would not-forget about established singers. That was Rafi— my friends. Even after 1000 years he would be surely heard and remembered and adored in people’s hearts.
Dear Vitthalji-2270,
I have listened to the song “Darling Darling.” But my honest opinion is, after listening to and enjoying the beauty and charm of songs like Himagiri sogasolu, Manasuna manasai, Ninnaleni andamelo and last but not the least Ragamaye Raave, the songs like “Fifty Fifty” or “Darling Darling” did not appear to be that mind blowing to me. However, I do not think there was any lapse in the part of ghantasala in the rendition. He delivered his best. But I think songs like Fifty Fifty, Darling Darling or Poisha O Poisha could not utilize to the full extent the technical abilities of Ghantasala whose voice structure too, which is a god gifted thing, was more suited in rendering the classical based songs where there was the real expression of his talents.
Regards.
Musharaff ji –
You seem to be a musician. Could you kindly confirm in which rag the below song of ghantasala is composed. I was told this is in a hindusthani raga.
http://www.raaga.com/player4/?id=192124&mode=100&rand=0.9267447331693568
The original link is
http://www.raaga.com/channels/telugu/moviedetail.asp?mid=A0001741 (Priye charusilee song is provided above)
My post-2272.
Correction. Please read “Usne bhulaya hoga’ instead of existing. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Regards
post 2271:
Dhani Ram ji,
Glad to see you back on this forum after a long time. Here is Bhupi’s account of the second song you’ve referred to in your post (more on Bhupi later):
————-
“Let me clarify one point here. People always felt that Madanji liked to work with established singers only. This is totally a wrong notion. I am a glaring example of how he encouraged rank newcomers. And just see, the greatness of the man. He did not tell me that there were other singers also in the song. This was really a very intelligent move on his part. He knew that as a novice, once I’d know that there were some established singers in the song also, chances were I would get nervous and run away to Delhi. This is a great favour on Madanji’s part. He and his team ensured that I didn’t get an inkling of the other singers in the song.
On the day of recording, when I went to the studio, I couldn’t believe my eyes. The singers I considered my idols – Rafisaab, Talatsaab and Mannada were all present at the studio even before my arrival. Madanji introduced me to all of them. I was just rubbing my eyes in disbelief. Could it be that they had come on a courtesy call on Madanji? But then, I saw that all of them were singing and rehearsing in hushed tones. I realized that all of them would be singing with me. I felt as though the ground beneath my feet was giving way. But I gained composure. I look up the challenge and decided to give my best to the song.
Those were the days, when a recording was done on a single track. Talatji and Mannada were made to stand in front of one mike and I was with Rafisaab on another mike. As compared to my height, Rafisaab was shorter, so he was made to stand on a box. I was feeling bad about it. A great singer like Rafisaab was made to stand on the box because of me. Rafisaab realized my predicament. He made me comfortable by telling a lot of jokes. He brought me to the level of a friend. His behaviour made me free of any sort of tension. During the recording, there were great musicians like Hazra Singh, Pyarebhai and Laxmibhai. I couldn’t even imagine in my wildest dreams that I would be amongst these greats, rendering in front of the mike. All this could happen with the true blessings of only one person and that is Madanji. Today whatever stature I have gained in my profession is because of him. I owe my success to him.”
Reference post-2271 of Dhani Ramji.
I would like to help for quicker identification the songs quoted by Dhani Ramji. The song “insaaf ka mandir hai” is from the film “Amar” and the second one from the film “Haqeeqat” is “Hoke majboor mujhe use bhulaya hoga”.
Regards.
For smooth,mellifluous,soulful music listen to Insaaf ka mandir hai yeh bhagwan ka ghar hai by the greatest singer ever Rafi sahib.
There is a song sung by four soldiers in Haqeeqat rendered by Talat,Manna De,Bhupendra and Rafi.Listen to it and decide for yourself how Rafi sahib outclasses the others by far.
2267 – Musharraf ji –
thanks a lot for your appreciation. The songs ninnaleni and ragamayi respectively have been composed by S Rajeswara rao and Pendyala Nageswara rao respectively, the greatest music directors in telugu film industry. I will now give a song for you.
http://www.chimatamusic.com/oldmovplist.php?st=1170
Please hear the second song musharaff ji – darling darling – belongs to the rock and roll genre – please give your views.
2261 – walijah saab,
Perfect agreement with your post – only a small issue. You had stated that ghantasala did not render qawalis and ghazals.
In bandipotu telugu film a magnificient qawali number is there by ghantasala and suseela, composed by himself. Similarly, in nindu kutumbam film addam lanti chekkli song is a beautiful qawali number – again by ghantasala and suseela, I hope you have missed these films for qawali numbers in telugu. Regarding ghazals, which are part of the light music genre, most of the private songs and ashtapadis of ghantasala belong to the light music genre only, I think only the nomenclature in both forms of music i.e. hindusthani and carnatic is different. Of course, I stand to be corrected, if am I wrong please. Padyam and harikathas are unique only to the telugu industry and hence, rafi’s name should not be mixed with them as hindi industry was not exposed to these type of genres and compositions.
HAK walijah sahab, -2261
Surprised, you being a man with great telugu knowledge have quoted some wrong information. I hope you will kindly correct the same in your next post. Here is the point which I am referring to.
Ghantasala could not sing ghazals and qawwalis – totally wrong and dis agreed.
Aata ante teliyadu o vayyari – bandipotu film – music by ghantasala (you tube link not available) is a magnificient qawali number in telugu by ghantasala and suseela.
Addam lanti chekkili chusi – nindu kutumbam film music by t v raju is another wonderful qawali song by ghantasala and suseela (i could not find the link)
Next, ghazals belong to the light music category in which ghantasala was a perfect master – you are aware. Most of his asthapadis belong to the light music category.
So how could you make such wrong statement ? Please clarify.
True, I agree padyalu and harikathalu are not there in hindi music.
regards
Musharraf ji – 2267
I reciprocate with deep affection and warm regards – thanks for your appreciation and t r u e love towards great musical renditions. Yes, the song ragamaye raave is composed in bhimpalas rag corresponding to the abheri rag of carnatic music.
Bhushanji-post-2265,
My hats off to Ghantasala master. Thank you very much for giving me the oppurtunity to listen to these rare gems. What melodious tunes and what superb rendition. Only a singer like Ghantasala possesses the required classical skills to sing these types songs so magnificiently specially the song “Ragamaya Raave”, a masterpiece which I think has been tuned with the raga “Bhimpalasri”(I may be wrong).
Regards.
Murthy 2010 – post 2251
You got a very sensational information about Ghantasala master. Are you sure this information is 100% true, because you are trying to ignite fire which will cost you heavier if the things are proven wrong By the way “Navrang (1959) a classic movie directed by V. Shantaram starring Mahipal and Sandhya, music by: C.Ramachandra. Almost all the songs were sung by Asha Bhosle, Mahendra Kapoor and Manna Dey then who are those great hindi personalities felt insecure, are you pointing towards Rafi Saab, he had not sung a single song in that movie, then how can you come to the conclusion that this is the only reason that hindered Ghantasala master to sing in hindi movie Navrang. Your Hypothesis is very weak, ambiguous and covered by dust of ill feeling. Before writing such post make sure that what you are uttering how far it is true, and what will be the result for such gossip.
Raghavasastry Garu – Post 2254
Your comment are sharp like arrows and may not tolerate by a true rafian. The Hindi Film Industry is open to all Indian citizens to show their talents and rule the industry as what Rafi saab had done. He is a Punjabi ruled the bollywood for almost 40 years until he dies in 1980. You should appreciate a non-telugu singer had come and sang such beautiful songs which were chartbusters in Bhale Tammudu , Aradhana and finally Akbar Salim Anarkali. Rafi Saab had not sung those songs to snatch the position of Ghantasala master, the rest of things are history and you can go back and read the older posts. Even the southern talents like SPB and Jesudas sang many songs in Hindi movies, but they could not create any magic on national level, therefore they went back to their roots which they think safer for themselves. If Rafi Saab was an ordinary singer like SPB and Jesudas, he would have gone back to Punjabi film industry long back to his roots. But on the contrary he ruled bollywood under toughest competition and came out with flying colors and now regarded as a legend of Indian Music Industry. Rafi Saab had proved that real talent alone can withstand and will survive under toughest competition.
Musharraf ji and Common man
two songs by ghantasala for both of you – please tell me how did you feel about the composition as well as the songs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48AdJwcYenw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th5Yh73c1Rc&feature=related
Musharaff ji – thanks for referring my name.
My request to you is that you have to take the entire film mayabazar, not only its music, surely you will appreciate the film from all angles. If you view the same in totality, it is a marvel without any doubt.
My appreciations for your other points in your post. Thanks and regards.
Musharaff ji
I liked your post very much. I appreciate it and my deep regards for your comments. Our deep respects to your esteemed father and his skills. Nothing much to worry about the jayachandran forum – when they say he was the No.1 results were like that and please forget about it – it was just a sharing information.
Bhushanji, post-2248.
The undisputed dominance of ghantasala as you say was confined to telegu film industry where he didn’t have to face competition from other filmy voices like, Rafi, Kishore, manna dey etc. So that does not put him over Rafi in any way. Further Both Rafi and Lata also sang songs in languages other than hindi. But their command area is hindi. For any comparison between artists their main area of work has to be considered. So I disagree with your contention that since Rafi sang in telegu and Ghantasala never sang in hindi Ghantasala stands ahead of Rafi.
However there is one thing that I believe in that is destiny or the will of god.It was destined that Rafi shall opt to stay in Mumbai after partition,, Noorjahan shall go back to Pakistan, Lata and Asha shall try their luck in Bollywood, Ghantasala will prefer to remain in his ancestral place. What would happen if the people in question would have acted otherwise remains a hypothetical question. No inferences can be drawn from imaginary situations and we can not rewind the clock backwards. So in line with your approach I too say “gatam gatah” and let’s engage ourselves to enjoy the artistry of these two great personalities, Mohammed Rafi and Ghantasala in the days ahead.
Regards
Dear Friends,
This long never-ending battle between two groups – who is great, powerful and soulful is not the need of the hour. Those great legends left to their heavenly abode long back, Ghantasala almost 36 years and Rafi Saab 30 years. It is not good now to sling the mud on their names and getting vicious atmosphere on this beautiful site where we are discussing the beautiful memories of Rafi Saab. I even thinking of some of the most matured fans acting like childish and prolonging this nonsense fight between Ghantasala fans and Rafi fans which will take us nowhere, except regret and heartburns.
Further it is not good to dig the buried matters and expose now after a long time, it only now shows that the jealousy of the fans towards one another. Ghantasala is great in his realm i.e padyalu, harikatalu and of course a very good music director, whereas Rafi an undisputed king of bollywood during 50’s and 60’s where there is nothing left untouched by this great maestro what we called the legend of legends, Mohd. Rafi for example, romantic, patriotic, sad, comedy songs, qawallis (devotional & romantic), ghazals, and what not. Rafi Saab was a gentleman and Ghantasala too very nice, more popular in his time and in his territory. We can’t compare these two legends and prove that one is more superior than the another. What Ghantasal did and achieved, perhaps Rafi Saab’s does not belong to that territory, and What Rafi Saab had sung, Ghantasala might not entered that territory due to south and north differences, for example, Qawwali and Ghazal genres are purely belongs to northern Indian products. Ghantasala could not sing ghazals and qawwalis and Rafi could not sing padyalu and harikatalu. Both things are quite different and various.
Both the legends had immense respect for one another. Rafi and Lata acknowledged that Ghantasala was the greatest singer. When the legends certified that Ghantasala is the greatest singer India has ever produced, what is the matter now to discuss and fight? What is the use now to discuss and prolong this quarrel who’s great. It is already proved that Ghantasala is great in his territory and master of his art, whereas Rafi too master and expert in his territory and his art. Moreover Mohd. Rafi can not be compared to any singer existing or dead, he is beyond comparison which had already proved in last July – 9000 musical tributes commemorated to this greatest singer which alone is enough proof to accept that he is more popular and talented singer ever born on the Indian soil.
Please stop this comparison business and talk about virtues of both the singers if you want to continue, otherwise leave this matter close this subject for God’s sake.
Hoping that all the fans of Rafi and Ghantasala understand now what I want to convey.
Best regards
H.A.K. Walijah
Common_man -2257
Aradhana in telugu was in 1976 – nothing to do with ghantasala as he passed away in 1974 itself. Not only aradhana, even other movies such as akbar salim anarkali (1978 I think) in which rafi sang in telugu – all these movies were after demise of ghantasala. The moot question here is not aradhana or others, Murthy ji might be correct, as the statement comes from none other than the wife of ghantasala.
Dear Dr.Rao Sahab and Vitthalji,
Thanks for your post 2250 and 2249 respectively. Actually my comments regarding the film “Mayabazar” was in reference to post 2241 of Bhushanji where he stated Mayabazar deserves 1000 oscars and not in refernce to Dr.Rao’s post 2239. Bhushanji’s statement created an eagerness in me to know more about that film. I hope this clarifies my position. I have visited the Kerala forum-Jayachandran as refered by Vitthalji. I will try to comment on that in my future posts.
However one thing I would like to say in unequivocal terms. I condemn in strongest words any decision made by any authority based on political consideration, or on the basis of lingual, racial, religious or ethnic grounds that leads to injustice or to exploitation whether economic or cultural any where in the world. I come from Bangladesh which was subject to long social, cultural and economic injustice and exploitation and our people had to earn independence through liberation war. Urdu was forcefully thurst upon by Pakistani Military government on us as the state language although majority of us spoke bengali and we had to shed blood to establish bengali as the state language. The cultural domination went so far that our radio and television channels were not allowed to broadcast “Tagore songs”(Songs written by the great poet Rabindranath Tagore).
My father late Syed Mujtaba Ali earned the displeasure of the Pakistan Government by writing a book “Purbo Pakistaner Rashtrobhasha'(The state language of East Pakistan) after partition of India in 1947 where he wrote that if the West Pakistan exploits the East through language or any other means he won’t be surprised if the eastern secedes from the west. Thereafter the then Pakistan authorities tried to victimize my father in different ways and he finally settled in India where his talents got true recognition, specially from his admirers in West Bengal. P.Haldarji has better knowledge in this matter.
However coming back to the Rafi-Ghantasala issue I would like to say that both were like flowers whose fragrance spread not only over the areas where they bloomed but also transcended beyond the boundaries to convey to others the rich musical heritage that forms a part of our glorious culture.
Regards.
“One speciality of ghantasala’s voice was it was “sharp majestic’ – to some extent kishore kumar alone had this style”
elaborate about kishore for me…i am interested.
“but, quite obviously, this was not liked at all by some hindi great personalities and the result was that ghantasala never heard anything thereafter from mumbai. this one particular incident clearly shows the feelings of jealousy towards ghantasala.”
you are speculating. there could be other reasons. is it possible that CR (iirc) prefered a hindi singer due to language / pronunciation. if someone preferred ghantasala (who was no more) for aradhana (1974) rather than rafi, i wouldn’t call it jealousy. it’s just that ghantasala had better diction for telegu.
Murthy 2010
An unfortunate incident you have narrated. Navrang movie was made in 1959, when ghantasala was at his peak in the south, I personally feel due to this, bollywood has lost a unique gem of the south in its feather. However, gatam gatah, past is past over, but the issues remain. It was will of god that ghantasala should not enter into bollywood.
Dear Mr. Murthy – 2251
Thanks for the information, I was not aware of this incident. Such incidents need to be outrightly condemned by true music personalities and music lovers. Bollywood greats, namely the music directors and singers knew very well about ghantasala and his unique talents – even rafi and lata, the top icons of hindi acknowledge his greatness, on some occasions, both of these have even stated that ghantasala was much superior to them, – but even many were surprised that despite such immense talents why ghantasala did not sing even a single hindi song remained a mysterious question. I think Your post has the capability to dispel doubt on this hidden question all these days. There might have been apprehension in bollywood that if ghantasala was given a chance, southern talents would get a striking recognition. I stand by my previous post when I mentioned that certain differences tend to exist on cultural and linguistic lines between bollywood and the southern industry, not only in this industry, even other areas, politics too – in the entire history only P V narasimha rao alone was the southern personality who became PM of the country, majority of times the post goes to people from the north – so issues are such, for which nothing can be done. Nevertheless, similar to the late Mr. Swaminathan iyer, I too have immense respect for the great rafi , I agree with you and others like Mr. Musharaff, that ghantasala was unique and as a musician/music personality certainly ranks above other singers in the indian film industry. One speciality of ghantasala’s voice was it was “sharp majestic’ – to some extent kishore kumar alone had this style. Fame/popularity is different and talent is different. Even kishore kumar is equally popular like rafi in the country than ghantasala, again by virtue of the bollywood touch.
Murthy garu – 2251
Thanks for such a information. All these days, rafi fans were under impression that ghantasala did not sing any hindi song, and hence it will be a comparison of apples vs oranges. but it is now enlightened that he was not allowed to sing any hindi song, – god knows the reason for such happening. Might be hindi pundits had feared – if he tried in hindi, he would have overtaken all others like he did in the south viz., namely telugu industry. Contrary to this rafi was given a warm welcome in telugu industry to sing some telugu songs – there was no fear in telugu industry for anybody to come even nearer to ghantasala, but the above post of Mr. Murthy clearly confirms the feeling of insecurity of bollywood pundits towards southern talents. Might be similar incidents might have been there with regard to entry of other southern talents into bollywood, namely p suseela from the south, as it is reported many times that lata mangeshkar too was adept in politics to maintain her position like somebody says here that spb was of such type.
Dear Haldarda,
Thank you for your nice remarks. Notwithstanding the fact that more nobel prizes would have gone to the talents of Bengal we still are proud to belong to the land which has produced the world’s all time greatest literary and cultural genius, the nobel laureate poet, “Rabindranath Tagore” whose two songs are the national anthems of two neighbouring countries.
I have visited the site that you have referred to and listened to the beautiful song of the film “Shaheed” sung by Rafi. Wonderful rendition indeed commensurate with the lyrics. In the same site I have discovered two of my favorite patriotic songs of Rafi. One is “Hum laye hain toofanonse kishti nikalke” from the film “Jagitri” and “Jahan daal daal par sone ki chidiyan karti hai basera” from the film “Sikandar-e-Azam”. When one listens to these songs I think there can hardly be any denial to your contention which I fully endorse that this sub-continent could not produce any playback singer like Rafi.
Regards
Dear Murthy garu – 2251
This is a totally new news for me and I think for all other music lovers. I know that the hindi music directors and singers know very well about ghantasala and his talents, but this concert news is a new news for me. And we have to believe this, when the wife of ghantasala herself has written about the incident. Such kind of incidents give a wrong picture, I thought this kind of scenario was in the telugu industry only in the 70’s and 80’s when SPB tried to dominate in his way, now I am surprised even bollywood witnessed such unpleasant incidents. In recent posts, when we were discussing about great and healthy competition in bollywood, this kind of incident is a spot. I am sure, murthy ji, even our rafian friends will not agree to such type of unpleasant incidents which are not truly “ethical” and give a apprehensive picture on one’s own confidence and talents.
dear sri rao garu
i read your posts 2238 and 2239 today only as i was out of station for quite some time. as you very rightly said, certain things cannot be helped and we have to accept them as they are. now i will narrate one incident where some great hindi film personalities showed a sense of jealousy towards ghantasala. this which was written by the wife(Savithramma) of ghantasala in her book on him recently. those were the days when the shooting of “Navrang” movie was going on and ghantasala was once invited to give a concert in mumbai.the concert was simply spellbound and the audience which included many great hindi film directors, producers, music directors, singers, etc., were overawed by his stupendous performance. they simply could not believe that the southern india had got such a marvelous singer with both classical and filmy talents. the impact was so much that immediately after the concert was over, the producer of “Navrang” film went on to the stage and announced that ghantasala would be singing for his Navrang film and ghantasala agreed to sing for his film. but, quite obviously, this was not liked at all by some hindi great personalities and the result was that ghantasala never heard anything thereafter from mumbai. this one particular incident clearly shows the feelings of jealousy towards ghantasala.