True Voice – Mohd Rafi
The following article was brought to my notice when Sharad posted it on MAS. The article has been trimmed down a bit keeping afloat Rafi details. However, anyone interested can go visit the source at http://tfmpage.com/forum/4980.6302.04.57.19.html
I am Swaminatha Iyer and I am 78 years old. I hail from Tiruchi and I am a part of music associations in Tiruchi, M’as as well as in West Bengal and Maharashtra.
I think it is wrong to condemn music or artists on either side of Vindhyas. Our Indian music is one of the few which has not been cleaned off by the western music though there has always been a influence. It speaks a lot of the richness of our music. Sometime back director of MTV had said that MTV westernized the music wherever it went but in India , MTV had to be Indianized for it to be accepted. A lot of this credit goes to the Indian film music.
I have been fortunate to have close personal association with Rafi, Sirkali, TMS, Dr. BMK, Kishore, SPB & KJY, PS, Mannadey and the one and only Lata Mangeshkar.
Comparisons are bound to come, but almost every artist or I have met considers Lata to be beyond comparison. Her talents are beyond anyone’s reach. Even Sirkazi used to talk of her singing like a die-hard fan as do countless others.
Now coming to the Rafi-SPB discussion. It might be difficult to convince an South Indian to believe Rafi is the better and at the same time Rafi crowd will never believe any other male singer comes anywhere nearer. There is one more mobile crowd, which is well conversant with Hindi and some south Indian language. Majority of them tilt to either Rafi or Kishore.
During one of my stays in M’as I had stayed with SPB. While talking of true voices he said, I don’t feel like half a singer when listening to Rafi. True voice is not a tech term but many in circle use it. Perfect example would be lata, but to understand consider our own PS who within her range is superb. People who do not have such true voices can never do justice to original. They generally underplay many parts of the song or fake it with bass/superficial singing. True voices make people like Sirkazi, Nusrat Fateh Ali khan, Lata… Inimitable. However since Sirkazi and Nusrat did not have the filmy voices their “real” following is limited to their local arena.
In addition to the true voice if the singer has a very good voice then in “most” cases he/she can better songs of others. It is this combination which makes Rafi stand out among the other male singers. There are many here who seem to have mistaken notions on a good bass and also on high pitch.
Bryan Adams does not require a monster bass in “Summer of 69” to sound real manly. It is the punch which gives that feel and that is decided only by the comfort level in most ranges (that is by what your throat can support). This you CAN never disguise with bass. Since people have talked about lack of manly voice viz. a viz. Rafi it was necessary to bring this point out. I have had the fortune of listening to most singers in studio and some times without a mike, practicing with MD’s.When Lata or Rafi do, the level is so high that people hesitate to even hum. It felt silly to sing in their presence (and it feels silly when someone says his voice isn’t manly).
In RD’s tribute when SPB sang “Aaja Aaja mein hoon” or “Chaand mera dil” it sounded only sweet and lacked punch if you compare with Rafi’s original.
Yesu once told me God has been partial to Rafi. He said “god gift term anavasyamaa romba common aa ippo use aardu”.. but idu Rafi kee thaan 100% porundu”. This person could sing “as intricately as a lady without sounding thin”, “cover any mood”, “versatility odey perfect example Rafi”. Yesu said most important is the comfort level over ranges which makes you feel God has been partial to Rafi. (But Of course in Rafi’s early career (1950’s) the voice was relatively feeble).
To people exposed to Rafi’s talent, these or any amount of praise can only seem less. I just wish he was alive and you people could get a live chance to hear him. Probably you can get hold of the DD album for the Geet Gaata Chal series where the first four episodes were dedicated to Rafi. Rafi is on camera singing “O Duniya Ke Rakwaaley” and many other songs. If you see and hear the last part you will realize why SPB said “impossible”. I think particularly those people who have talked about scales w.r.t Rafi should see this album. Its a known fact in industry that Rafi ruled high pitch and there is no male singer better in switching notes so easily. There are artists who can go beyond but then they sound strained or they don’t have pleasant voices when they venture into those territories.
Many singers of today are his compulsive followers. But they end up inheriting only part of his quality. Md. Aziz ended up with a sad voice. Mahendra Kapoor with a thick nasal voice. Anwar with a nasal voice. Sonu Nigam with a feminine voice. Rafi neither had a soft voice nor a heavy (bass) voice he had a good voice. Importantly did not strain at high notes, and voice if at all only became better at higher notes. If you see him singing it will remind you of Janaki. However diff the song is or the note is he will be smiling and singing. It is unthinkable that he cannot sing something.
There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo” song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect. There are lot of other songs of SPB where this great singer has played with songs in total control. You will find most south Indian singers who have had a good exposure say that it is beneficial to learn Hindustani as it gives better breath control and improves expression.
Rafi was not only able to glide over a song, the important thing was that he could express each word/sound when singing. It is one thing to hold your breath, start and reach a crescendo (high note), as like in “Shankara”, “Anbey (Yennai kaan villaye)” it is different ballgame if you have to do it from low notes or suddenly switch notes. With practice the former can be done, latter requires a special gift. Rafi had a natural ability to do the latter. In “Tum joh mil gaye ho” there is such a transition in the “karwaan mil gaya” part. I have never seen anyone do justice to most of his songs in my life time. In “parda hai parda” quawaali the similar part is “kar doon to, Akbar mera naam”. In fact most of his songs will have these specialty as it was his natural ability to sing freely in a wide range at the same time giving that extra expression.
Whereas SPB takes us to heavens with “Idu oru pon maali”,”Ilaya nila” “bisiladarenu”(kannada), when he sings Rafi’s song it lacks the punch or expression, though it has the bass. But at least most agree that SPB does some justice to original, whereas most others murder the original.
One trivial point I would like to add is that singing in Hindi is harder. There are more “JHA”,”CHA”,”HA”,”THA”, “KHA”,”JA”,”FA”. These take away the breath faster. The more expressive you are the more air you are using up. Just singing from Nabhi will not help, your throat also needs to do a lot, for singing in Hindi, Bengali etc. SPB makes you fall in love with his south Indian songs but same cannot be said about his Hindi songs. If you just glide through words having these sounds, you will never be expressive. Doing this as well as reaching high notes is not easy. Rafi had this gift and that’s why it is difficult to imagine anyone else in his shoes. Song “Chalkaaye jaam” has so much expression that it is unthinkable how anyone can sing it. When Rafi switches to a high note with “Mitwaa” in the song “Chaahunga mein tughey” you cannot replicate it with bass. Most others will sound as if they are shouting in such cases. That man’s throat had the ability to freely sing at such levels.
Versatility is not just the ability to sing in various styles, more important is how good you are singing in those styles. You have lot of Ghazal singers today but when Rafi sings a Ghazal you will sit up and take notice. You don’t have to be part of the Ghazal listeners crowd. This is one important aspect. Whatever style you sing you should be able to pull the common man to listen and not just a particular crowd. Pick “parda hai parda” or any qawalli and it will stand tall among other qawalli’s.
Variety is amazing :
songs of Guru Dutt’s Khagaz key phool or songs like abhi naa jao chod key, Aaja teri yaad aayi, Aaj kal mein dhal gaya, Aaj kal terey merey pyaar, Aasmaan sey aaya farishta, Dil ney pyaar kiya hai, Deewana mujh saa nahi, Din dhal jaaye, Duniya paagal hai, Jaane walon jara, Dil joh na kaha saka, Dil key jharokon mein, Dil kaa bhavar, Chalkey teri aakkhon sey, Kar chaley hum fida, khilona jaan kar tum, Woh jab yaad aay, Woh hain jara khafa, Vaadian mera daaman, Pathar key sanam, Chaand mera dil, Main zindagi kaa saath, Mainey poocha chaand sey, sun sun jaalima, Koi jab raah na paay, hum to chaley pardes, badan pey sitaarey, laal chadi maidaan, Tum jo mil gaye, O meri shaahey, Sau baar janam lengey, Tum mujhey yoon bhula, Tumney mujhey dekha, Terey merey sapney, Tumny pukaara hum chaley aay
Name a situation/mood and Rafi’s song will be there on the top.
Swami
Musharraf ji,
I have not made any comparisons between telugu and hindi films, rather I was just mentioning how bollywood tends to be more recognisable despite the huge talent & success of the regional films in their industries. Mughal e azam is a nice film with popular actors, songs are also good from the film. Regarding ghantasala you have mentioned only one side of the coin i.e his classical mastery, the other side of the coin is his mastery over playback singing, this can be fully understood only when there is a good knowledge over the language as well as the industry concerned. As was rafi, so was ghantasala in playback singing (Overall as a musician you have yourself elaborated) Anyway, thanks for your response.
Musharaff ji,
Dr. Rao has not compared mayabazar or songs in that film with mughal e azam songs, I could not understand why you are making comparison between both the film songs, which I think is irrelevant. He was only mentioning about the success of the telugu film and concluding that despite such huge success how much popularity it has achieved. Mughal e azam could not attain such success, that was his view, which I think is correct. People would have talked much about mughal e azam, had it been successful like mayabazar in its colour form – that was his view and nothing beyond that. As you say, certainly telugu language knowledge is an asset to know the incomparable mayabazar.
Mughal e azam is a great film – the songs are also good but in my personal view not as great as many of other rafi’s gems. Similarly lata’s songs also – her voice is melodious, but in my personal view only from composition point of view the songs deserve appreciation, in tems of their conveying the meaning. While counting many of hits of rafi and lata, mughal e azam is not as frequently mentioned as other major hits of rafi in films viz., junglee, kashmir ki kali, tajmahal, professor, chaudvin ka chaand, sangam, baiju bawra, pyaasa etc. etc.
I request you also to please visit the site : kerala forum – jayachandran is the greatest singer – type this in google and please read the comments therein. Please open the first blog there and read the comments therein.
Musharraf ji, – a nice post.
You have great respect for both the legends, so I won’t put up much points.
But few issues, padyam, slokas are non filmy in nature – disagreed, they were the life of the telugu films, that is why we say knowledge of telugu language will be an asset, Next, honestly, I do not find anything great in mughal e azam songs – zindabad song of rafi is nothing before is song of kashmir ki kali or jo wada kiya woh etc. Lata’s pyar kiya to darna kya is also nothing before many of her melodious songs. No chance of any greatness in mughal e azam songs. Mayabazar songs are experimental by virtue of their compositions, a type which can never be seen in bollywood, so you cannot compare them with hindi songs. Aha na pelli anta, sundari nee vante – both were comedy experimentals, – Lahiri lahiri a moon light night song was shot in the mid day in full sun – ghantasala created a moon light effect for the song just by his voice and melody/sweetness, it is a mohana raga experimental song – very beautiful, just see the video of the song in you tube you will understand. The hindi producer raj kapoor had seen this film and was awestruck with wonder upon the seeing the film and listening to its music. He asked the producer of the film to share how the entire success techniques for huge success of a film could be incorporated in the film. Such was mayabazar which completed 100 days with full packed houses in andhra in may 2010. the film was released in united states as well. As you said knowledge of the language will be certainly an asset to understand more. Regarding your second para, which I appreciate, just want to put only one final point – there is no playback singer in india who was as accomplished as ghantasala, with simultaneous talents and success as carnatic musician as well as music director with a most majestic divine voice. Similarly there is no exclusive classical musician in india, who was as accomplished as ghantasala as a playback singer without any competition as long as he lived – the undisputed dominance without any competition as long as he was alive. This makes ghantasala the greatest ever unqiue playback singer born in the indian film industry – perhaps never to be borne again. Rafi sang some songs in telugu, so if we compare both ghantasala is clearly ahead. Ghantasala never sang in hindi, so you cannot straight away conclude (without hearing him in hindi) , whether he would have been highly successful in the hindi industry or not. So both ways, i honestly feel, we are correct. However, rafi stands more popular than ghantasala, a point which was agreed by all many times, by virtue of his association with the national language.
Finally, I fully respect your equal respect for both the legends and my deep regards for your nice post.
Musharraf babu,
I am a great fan of your father; I’ll write about him later. But I’d request you not to engage in a conversation with folks who keep posting their biased and patronising comments.
Last month, at a time of great personal loss, a rafi song entered my consciousness before I was about to do the antim sanskar. That song is from “shaheed” and was recorded a few months after independence, after your and my state and rafi saab’s state were partitioned. That is the price these two states paid after contributing the maximum to the cause of Independence.
And two physicists, one from opar Bangla and one from epar Bangla, were robbed of the Nobel prizes that they so richly deserved. One for whose invention you and I got to hear Rafi saab’s songs on radio and the other on whose work some of the major breakthroughs in particle physics are taking place even now. And we are being accused of being envious of the talents of people from other states. Comedy at its best!
Anyway, I want to comment on what you and common man have said about rafi saab’s voice, that it was “filmy”. I personally don’t like that qualification. It is true that in terms of playback, there has not been a singer — kishore included — who comes within miles of his calibre, but it wouldn’t be right to call his voice filmy. His was a voice that could be moulded for every possible situation. Listen to the “shaheed” song, especially the second part when the tempo becomes slower, and tell me if the subcontinent has produced a singer that can come anywhere near what he produced:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1TTQe32lwc
Ghulam Haider, the composer of the song, crossed over to Pakistan soon after. Rafi, born in this side of the Punjab, had to cross over to Lahore with his family at a young age. Then, following the dictates of his heart, he left for Bombay almost penniless. And then when the artificial lines were drawn on the sand, he decided to stay put, leaving his parents and siblings on the other side.
Is it any wonder then that he, and only he, was destined to produce such a masterpiece? When you listen to the song, you feel like becoming a shaheed yourself. That is the power of his voice.
“hai kaun khushnaseeb maan ki jiska ye chiraag hai
woh khushnaseeb hai kahaan ye jisake sar ka taaj hai
amar woh desh kyun naa ho ki tu jahaan shaheed ho …”
Dear Ghantasala fans,
Music is essentially an art, a “Kala”. It is a very strong way of expression of one’s feelings, just like a beautiful piece of poem or a painting but undoubtedly the strongest medium among the three. A successful song can heal a wounded heart and sometimes brings one near to the creator. There are different stages of human mind and accordingly different types of songs are being created to express the multifarious moods of people. Happy, sad, romantic so on and so forth. Music therfore should therefore be perceived in its artistic form and not as a technique or an acrobatics. Music also does not follow the principle”The tougher the song, the better is its quality and accptability”. Songs like “Kuhu kuhu” or ‘haiye haiyga” or ‘Jhanak jhanak payal baje” are definitely tough songs from classical point of view and only singers who have classical mastery can sing those songs. But classical based songs are not the end of the show.Specially in the film world, songs of various types are composed to reflect the diverse moods of the actors and you cannot use classical approach to give expression to light songs, fast songs or teasing songs or to songs where more filmy attitude is required of the voice of the singer. “O duniya ke rakhwale” and “Zindabad zindabad” sung by Rafi are also tough songs because only singers having that exceptional voice range can attempt to sing those songs. But Rafi’s genious gave him the latitude to sing all types of songs which became no less popular than his high pitch songs. Rather all of his songs have become legends. To quote a few “Aye Gulbadan”(Professor)-Teasing song, “Yeh chand sa rowshan chehra”-(Kashmir ki kali)-Flattering song, “Mere mehboob tujhe”(Mere mehboob)-Romantic song, “O duniya ke rakhwale”(Baiju bawra)-High pitch devotional song, ‘Kar chale hum fida”(Haqeeqat)-Patriotic song, “Yeh ishq ishq hai'(Barsaat ki raat)-Qawali.. The list can be longer. This universality of his voice quality and talent does not brand him as a particular type of singer a quality that have given his songs greater acceptability and makes him superior to Ghantasala as a playback singer.
Ghantasala on the other hand a singer with perfect classical mastery, could also sing, padyam and Bhagawat shloka although these are non-filmy in nature. Apart from being a playback singer he was also a music director. He was a matchless guru,an idol for aspiring classical singers. His multiple talents combinedly places him higher than Rafi as a musician/music personality but not as a play back singer an area where Rafi was matchless.
I agree with commonmanji when he says that it is idocy to judge an artist on the basis of awards. Both Rafi and Ghantasala were great assets of Indian film music and both unparallel in their respective areas regardless of what awards were given to them by the authorities.
I have not seen the movie “Mayabazaar” so I can not comment on the film. But I went to You tube and have listened to its songs. To quote a few, Aha na pellenta, Lahiri lahiri lahio, Neevena nanu pilachinadi, vinnavate yashodama, sundari neevantidiva etc. I am a listener of music since I was 13-14 years old. And in my humble and honest judgement songs of Mayabazar could not match the songs of Mughal-Azam on the basis of qualitative judgement. And if my southern friends say that my lack of knowledge of telegu language is my handicap to understand or to comment about telegu songs I have nothing to say.
Regards
“Still you are a common man”
that i will always be 🙂
“I wish you please grow now as a matured man.”
But I am 🙂
“Well, I could not understand your 63.3% – kindly elaborate.”
I was kidding. Tonge in cheek. 🙂
always a pleasure! and don’t worry too much about silly awards…what’s more valuable than people loving these singers so much that they cherish the songs and argue over the singers 30 years later 🙂
Dr. Rao, Murthy 2010 and common man
The truth is kuhu kuhu from a bollywood angle is such a tough song that it deserves national award – the same song for ghantasala or in the southern industry is nothing, there are many times more tougher numbers and telugu suvarna sundari song is just a cakewalk for ghantasala. No body from the southern industry will recommend this song to the level of national award as the hindi industry did, because from southern industry point of view, that is not a tough song at all. Perhaps as you said the discrimination feeling appears strong.
Dear common man – 2240
Still you are a common man – I wish you please grow now as a matured man. Well, I could not understand your 63.3% – kindly elaborate.
2239 – Dr rao garu,
I fully agree with your post. You are correct, difficult to change things.
Common man
the two songs are just examples – I think many numbers have already been shared. Pl. go to his website to have as much as you can. Thanx.
Dr. Rao – Mayabazar has to get 1000 oscars at a time.
Murthy ji – gatam gatah – past is past over. let’s enjoy the music.
63.3% of the times when some ghantasala fans talk about songs…they mention “kuhu kuhu” and siva sundari. i see a post from ghantasala fan from rmim…he titles it great song from ghantasala…i figure this guy was champ for 3 decades…he’ll have lots of songs…but some ghantasala fans just keep talking about the same two songs again and again and again…music just doesn’t revolve around these songs…rafi’s “ab kya misaal doon” ; “yeh mera prem patra” ; “aane se uski aaye bahaar” ; “main kahin kavi na banjao” ; “aye hain door se milne huzoor se” are far “superior” songs to anything i ‘ve heard from ghantasala. how’s that;)
Dear Murthy ji,
I forgot one more point, in my previous post, just written few minutes back, i was mentioning about the bengali industry and and in before post, we had mentioned that however great the regional industry might be, it is seen as difficult to be more recognisable as compared to bollywood.
An interesting and glaring example can be cited in this regard.
The film mughal e azam and naya daur were released in colour, and their so so performance at box office is well known,
the telugu film mayabazar (1957) released in colour on jan. 30, 2010 completed 100 days with packed houses even on 100th day in May 2010. Mayabazar is music directed by ghantasala and his evergreen songs in the film are a feat to the ears at all times – how much popular this achievement has been, – Which film of 1950’s in india can run for 100 days if released today – Mayabazar alone has done that.
If the film was mughal e azam running for 100 days – a big hype would have been created. This is how things are happening Mr. Murthy ji and you have to accept. Nothing can be done.
Dear Mr. Murthy -2237
I understand your agony – you are correct in many ways – there is discrimination – i had already quoted – pandit bhimsen joshi vs balamuralikrishna – the latter stands more accomplished as a musician but was denied bharat ratna despite recommendation. The A P govt. had specifically and strongly protested that ghantasala is unparalleled, but to no avail as I have already stated, similarly, release of stamps for kishore kumar and others – everything is fine – no issues, but discrimination is certainly an issue, happening in many areas not only in film industry and as the situation prevails, things are being accepted in that way. The clear notion is, again I repeat, bollywood is accepted to be more recognisable with tremendous influence, as major population has access to hindi language as compared to regional language(s).
Last week, I was in kolkata and I had the opportunity to listen some of the bengali renderings, they were really beautiful and melodious, – i could grasp the rich culture of the bengali language, though I do not know the language. How many have achieved recognition from bengali similar to bollywood ?
And your point, indeed everybody in music industry was surprised when hindi version of kuhu kuhu was selected for national award and the original telugu version, which is more beautiful than the hindi version, did not get recognition – a big surprise. Even lata and rafi admitted to the superiority of the telugu version – specially the rendition of ghantasala. So issues are there, but frankly, in my opinion, nothing can be done as things are being accepted in that way. Due respects to A R Rehman, we are certainly happy that by the grace of almighty, he got oscars award, but personally i never consider A R Rehman, anywhere near ghantasala as a musician – never, – leave ghantasala, there are other reputed southern yester year music directors who are more unique than A R Rehman, but sadly no body is even remembered today.
And these days i have seen a site called who popular.com wherein the popularity is being measured in terms of votes. Do you know Mr. Murthy ji, that from day one of running of this site, in the website of ghantasala, there is a strong message that none should cast a single vote for ghantasala, as his talent cannot be measured in terms of votes and his name should not be included there with the artists mentioned there, and it is a fact that no ghantasala fan in that site ever votes, but surprisingly ghantasala stands among the top 5 musicians with nearly 5000 votes – who is voting is a mystery ? However, it is a truth that mohd rafi
a l o n e as a p l a y b a c k s i n g e r, is the o n l y o n e who enjoys great respect even among ghantasala fans, (despite their certain superior notion about ghantasala’s superiority over rafi which I too agree with ) and that is the reason, I had stated that these two are eyes of playback singing. The fact that so many people are listening to their songs, even after decades of their passing away, in fact testifies the greatness of these legends. I have nothing more to add.
dear sri rao garu,
your post 2228 is most welcome.
“when a southern artiste gets recognition, the bollywood greats cannot be ignored” okay. but it is not vice versa. that is, when a bollywood great gets award they donot consider the southern greats. why? do they think the bollywood greats are above southern talents? here, i will cite a classic example of how the southern talents were ignored by the central govt dominated by hindi people. the hindi song “kuhu kuhu” in hindi suvarna sundari sung by lata and rafi was simply a telugu version of the song “haiye haiyega” sung by jikki and ghantasala. if both the versions are heard, it can be very easily concluded that the telugu version was far better than hindi version. yet, however, surprisingly and strangely the hindi version was chosen for the national award. in fact, they should have awarded lata(she was better than jikki) and ghantasala(his rendition was far better than rafi’s). but they ignored the southern talent. it was not a case of regional/lingual ‘differences’ but ‘discrimination’. and this is what i protest. there can be differences but not discrimination of language/region.do you know the actual reason behind the denial of ‘padmavibhushan’ to ghantasala? you can easily read between the lines. if and if rafi could not make it to ‘padmavibhushan’ because of being lesser talented than ghantasala, why should they deny ghantasala that award? it defies all logic and reasoning and also common sense. it was not a case of ‘differences’ but ‘discrimination’ against southern talents. so, it goes like this-
if a bollywood great is recognised, then the southern talent may or may not be considered. but if the bollywood talent doesnot deserve, then the southern greats certainly shouldnot be considered. further, if the southern talent has to be recognised, then the bollywood greats shouldnot be ignored, though undeserving. the release of postal stamps for kishore and other bollywood greats shows the discrimination as above. am i right? regards.
Dear music lovers,
In this post I would like to narrate my personal experience through which I could feel what tremendous influence Rafi had in the lives of common men. In February 2006 I visited Kolkata on an official trip and was proceeding to Dumdum Airport to take the return flight to Dhaka.
Kolkata is in many ways my second home. During early 60s I was studying in Santiniketan in a school named Patha Bhavana established by the nobel-laureate poet Rabindranath Tagore. My father late Dr.Syed Mujtaba Ali, a direct student of Tagore himself was also an author of West Bengal(writer of the books “deshe-bideshe”, “Shabnam”, Pancha-tantra”, “Chacha -Kahini”etc.My Kolkatan friends in this site may know him) was also a professor in the university “Biswa Bharati” in Santiniketan also established by Tagore where my father was teaching comparative religion and german language. And I had to pass through Kolkata each time when I went home during my holidays and when I went back to school. My father settled in Koltata in his last days since 1967 till his death in 1974 in Dhaka. It was actually my father who unknowingly played the primary role in introducing Mohammed Rafi to me. He never thought that his son would be such a fan of Mohammed Rafi. During my stay in Santiniketan he bought for me a Murphy radio and showed me the operations of short wave and medium wave and how to reach different channels. He also introduced Radio Ceylon to me to enable me listen to Hindi film songs. It is through Radio Ceylon that I first came to listen to Rafi’s songs on a regular basis.
However, coming back to where I started, I was in a taxi with my wife on our way to Dumdum airport. The weather was fine and I was humming hindi songs. The driver of the taxi was a very jolly man with whom I entered conversation. He was probably from Bihar but settled in Kolkata.He talked about his family, his profession, his personal likings and dislikings. I soon discovered that he was too a music lover and to my great delight a Rafi fan. His favorite song was “O duniya ke rakhwale”. During the course of the discussion he told that he had his daughter married last month whom he loves very much. Immediately I started singing the immortal song of Rafi”Babul ke duwayen leti ja, ja tujhko sukhi sansaar mile” Believe me, when I reached the antara”Bachpan me jhulaya hai tujhko, phoolon ki tarah kaliyon ki tarah’ tears rolled down his eyes and he was crying. I put my hand on his shoulder and consoled him. Instantly a question shot in my mind. If my ability in singing rafi’s songs which is not even equal to the little finger of Rafi Sahab’s feet can bring tears in the eyes of a man, what majestic effect Rafi’s original song could bring about in the heart of its listeners?
Regards.
I fully agree with Sivaji-post 2230. Comparison needs to stop at certain point. As for post 2229 of Murthyji, since I am quite happy with the position rafi enjoys I have no reason to be jealous of Ghantasala let alone south. Rather I have deep regards and immense respect for ghantasala’s multiple talents that has been manifested in my latest posts. Actually both Rafi and Ghantasala are rare gems that India can be proud of.
i welcome mr. murthy’s comments. if he honestly believes that hindi speaking people are jealous of the southern talent, then i appreciate that he speaks his mind. he’s right, the truth is sometimes bitter. anyway, i don’t consider myself jealous. in fact, i’m very grateful for vyjayanthimala, hema malini, and rekha 🙂 no jealousy there.
as for awards…i’ve said this to rafi fans and i’ll say it to ghantasala fans…i think the people who choose awards like the bharat ratna are “silly” (trying to use moderate language). i agree with ghantasala, these awards don’t make the singers. i say the singers make the awards. i don’t care if rafi doesn’t get the bharat ratna. my favorite 500 songs of rafi are each “awards” that honor and immortalize him. i’d say the same about ghantasala for ghantasala fans. i’ve never cared for awards. i don’t take them as absolutes. they are very subjective. even here in the states i never watch the oscars because it’s just waay to subjective and meaningless. the artist’s work immortalizes him. i think it is inaccurate to use idiocy of awards decisions to infer that hindi people are jealous. that may be the thinking for a few but certainly not the majority.
DOSTON : I HAVE FOR SOME TIME STOPPED READING COMPARISONS OF SINGERS MADE BY THEIR FANS. I HAVE SAVED A LOT OF MY TIME BY THIS. CARRY ON PLEASE – EGO DRIVEN FANS… IN THE MOHDRAFI.COM…. PLEASE.
Dear siva – 2230
I think comparison has stopped, perhaps we are learning some new things out of this discussion. See, we would not have known about mr. Swaminathan iyer, if the discussion had not continued and many other interesting points from above posts. Nevertheless, my full regards and appreciations for your true music love towards the evergreen legends. I am waiting for rafi friends to contribute some great things about rafi and bollywood.
Binu nair ji – Dear sir, – thanks a lot for your post – a timely response to our dear swaminathan iyer from the leader of the rafi foundation – my great regards for you as well as your post sir.
Dear Dr. Rao garu,
My relative had met ghantasala and exactly the facts which you mentioned were stated by ghantasala master himself to my relative. Thanks for confirming the facts.
I fully appreciate your below para
“it can be appreciated that padmasri of the 60’s is equivalent to Bharat ratna of the current decade – I hope you understand what i say. So finally, ghantasala as well as mohd rafi remain the two eyes of playback singing, despite numerous arguments coming forth.”
With folded hands, I request all to stop this endless comparision. Earlier it was Rafi vs Kishore, then Rafi vs Ghantasala, and now North vs South!!!. Where is it going to end??.
Everyone tends to forget that this is a forum PRIMARLIY for Rafi sahab and hence kindly stop making endless comparisions. Knowing the nature of all the great legends like Rafi.Ghantasala, Talat, Mukesh they must be feeling ashamed that their fans are slinging mud over each other. The other day in the Total recall program on Mukesh, I came to know about a fact that when first Talat sahab was offered the chance to sing in Madhumati, he himself suggested the name of Mukesh , stating that he(Mukesh) was in financial problem and deserves this film more than him.
Such were the self-less nature of the great singers !!!
Nafrat ki lathi chodo, lalach ka khanjar phenko, zid ke peeche mat daudo, tum prem ke pacnhi ho desh premiyon, aapas mein prem karo desh premiyon.
Enjoy the timeless gems left behind as legacy to us by Rafi, Talat,Mukesh, Kishore ,Hemant, Ghantasala and the living legends like Manna da, Lata , Asha , T M Soundararajan, KJ Jesudass, SPB, , P Susheela, Vani Jayaram and many more in each of the regional languages and Hindi playback world .
musharrafji – post 2225
my post 2223 does not contain anything which is an exaggeration or fabrication out of malice directed against hindi people. i only reported what actually happened in 60’s when ghantasala was alive and whatever i said applies to those hindi people who underestimate southern singing talents. see. if you are not jealous or averse, then why should you worry about my remarks? truth is always bitter and one should have the guts and sportivity to call a spade a spade. that is what i have done. i have not criticised you or any other rafi fan who is not jealous or averse to ghantasala.
bhushanji – 2226
already some rafi fans are not able to digest and accept the supremacy of ghantasala over other male playback singers in the country. so, if i remove the word “male”, then they may go to the extent of saying that i am creating a disharmonious or unhealthy atmosphere in this form. but one thing is certain. in hindi, there are different opinions about who is the greatest male playbacksinger. some say rafi. some say kishorekumar. some say mukesh. but in telugu, there is only one opinion and that is ghantasala forever. and the accomplished musicians of both carnatic and hindustani who have studied the voices of all playbacksingers in india have concluded that ghantasala is the greatest of all. perhaps never will be borne again in future. regards.
Post 2208 – Mr. Viswanathan,
All the music lovers convey their deep regrets about Sri Swaminathan Iyer’s era coming to an end and we are sure music lovers shall always remember this musician as long as music is alive. Yes, I have seen this news in hindu newspaper sometime back stating that mr. Iyer is no more. He was hailed as a famous carnatic musician from tiruchi. You may be correct about Sri iyer ji’s views which are more or less similar to views of other musicians in the field. In fact as you said, this article (true voice) was written long back in a tamil forum and the same has been reproduced here and astonishingly, the response has been tremendous and beyond expectations – many times more than the responses in the tamil forum.
2223- Mr. Murthy
I will narrate the facts beyond your agony. True to certain extent, on cultural and linguistic lines, some differences tend to exist even today between southern and northern areas. The fact which you mentioned about recommendation of padmavibhushan to ghantasala in late 60’s by the govt. of andhra pradesh, – My friend mr. swamy was the secretary in charge for the department of culture at that time and he had personally conveyed the request to the centre on the advise of chief minister Kasu brahmananda reddy – AP at that time. The ministry of dept. of culture at the centre gave a ring to cm of AP and conveyed that in hindi there is only padmasri for both rafi and lata and hence it will be a very difficult situation for us to consider padmavibhushan to ghantasala, despite state govt’s recommendation as it will create ruckus in certain circles, who have got huge influence on bollywood. The official from the centre mentioned sorry and conveyed that without any doubt, padmasri will be granted, but please do not fight for padmavibhushan, as that was beyond our control. K Brahmananda reddy rejected the statement and strongly conveyed that nothing less than padmavibhushan will be accepted and the recommendation of the state govt. holds good and specifically mentioned that ghantasala is incomparable, even padmavibhushan is less for him. The congress govt. was there in the centre as well as state, but despite strong protest and recommendation by state govt., surprisingly on the date of announcement of awards, padmasri was announced for ghantasala. The state govt. did not try further as it was a prestige issue – once the awards were announced, on ethical behavioural lines, the issue was dropped and Mr. Reddy spoke to ghantasala in the night at 12.00 a.m. and conveyed that Master, padmasri has been awarded to your highness, despite fighting for padmavibhushan, my sincere apologies, as I could not try much due to busy schedules. Ghantasala replied in utter humility, – even I do not want padmasri – awards do not create artists and it will not make much difference. But CM insisted master to accept the same and that is how padmasri was conferred on ghantasala.
I could not remember the exact date but it is recorded that on one occasion, Jawaharlal nehru, PM of india, heard ghantasala singing the girija kalynam in a classical concert (the same was later reproduced in telugu film rahasyam) and Nehru personally had applause for ghantasala stating that I have not heard such melodious music till today.
Not only that, even when a postal stamp was released on ghantasala in 2003, immediately postal stamps were released for kishore kumar and some other bollywood film personalities – I was surprised about this sudden development for issue of stamps for kishore kumar and others . When I enquired, it was stated that when a southern artist gets recognition, bollywood yesteryear greats cannot be ignored. Sure, there are some issues like this. However, kishore kumar could not get even padmasri, despite being a leading singer of the bollywood, since there was a talk that (I am not sure about that) he refused to sing some songs for a leading politician of the times.
So Mr. Murthy, differences persist on certain lines, – sure one has to accept that bollywood industry is more recognisable than other regional industries – however great they might be, and things have come to be accepted in that way. After a long struggle, P suseela was directly awarded padmabhushan in 2008, – she had no civilian award before that. SPB got padmasri in 2001 – perfect lobbying with the then state govt. – spb was expert in politics, as somebody was mentioning.
Only justice, i think was done to Manna dey, who was awarded padmasri and padmabhushan – on similar lines, K J Yesudas was also awarded both of them, though Mr. dey or Mr. Yesudas do not come close to ghantasala in any area, at least they had got due recognition in terms of awards (one from north and one from south – a fact to be appreciated) . In the south, in the 70’s Similarly, Pandit bhimsen joshi has been awarded bharat ratna, despite recommmendation of the by the govt. for balamuralikrishna, the leading carnatic musician of the south who in fact is more accomplished than pt. bhimsen joshi – again the differences.
So Mr. Murthy, nothing much to be debated about the awards, which have nothing to do with the talent. Morever, it can be appreciated that padmasri of the 60’s is equivalent to Bharat ratna of the current decade – I hope you understand what i say. So finally, ghantasala as well as mohd rafi remain the two eyes of playback singing, despite numerous arguments coming forth.
post 2211 : COMMON_man : ‘IF THERE was life after death late mr swaminath aiyar the author of this article would have been very happy – to see the immense interest it has generated from music lovers “.
i am a bit shocked to know that mr iyer is no more. perhaps, his friends could throw some musical lights of his by way of articles to readers herein which “could” benefit music researchers and music affected one’s.
rafi foundation :
binus2000@hotmail.com
mumbai
cell : +9833 250 701
2223 – Murthy 2010
best of all male playback singers in india – the word male to be removed there.
Murthyji-post2223.
“This one particular fact shows how averse and jealous the hindi people are of the exceptional talents coming from the southern India.”
I do not think that your above statement will contribute to maintaining a harmoious and healthy atmosphere in this forum. I would therefore request you to refrain from making any statement in future that is directed against any particular group of people whether lingual, ethnic, religious or any kind whatsoever.
Regards.
Abhijitji-2219.
Thanks for the post.The question that you have stated regarding the prominanacy of Kishore in the 70s have been dealt by me briefly at the end of my post 2149. Actually the golden era of rafi was the 50s and the 60s when he rendered the best of his songs.
The question of whether Rafi or Kishore would be successful or not if they were born in south is a hypothetical one and to draw inferences from it will not be a logical approach.However,on the same basis one may ask how much Ghantasala would be successful if he was born in north and tried his luck in singing hindi songs? The answer would be probably not much because the music directors of Bollywood might not find the voice structure of Ghantasala more suitable to meet the demands of the Bollywood music of that period than the voice of Rafi and Ghantasala would have access to sing only the songs of pure classical nature where he was matchless. Rafi’s highly melodious voice with his tremendous voice range that the music directors of Bollywood had utilized, had a general adaptability to sing all types of filmy songs more appropriately than any other singer for meeting the demands of the time.
However, I have deep respect for Ghantasala. He was also a great singer, a music director, a master classical artist. These diverse qualities certainly place him in a very unique position over other singers. Please read my post 2220.
Now why is Rafi so extraordinary as a playback singer? It was the voice of Rafi that could bring tears in the eyes of the listeners, bring smile in the faces of children, was the voice of the aggrieved and the oppressed and stood as an encouragement to the nation at the time of crisis.
Not in a tone to make any comparison with any singer, Rafi was the brightest diamond in the area of playback singing the Indian film industry has ever witnessed. Unparallel and irreplaceable.
Regards
dear sri viswanathan garu,
thank you very much for your rather belated post 2208. before your post, the rafi fans were under poor impression about ghantasala whose name was not mentioned by mr swaminathan iyer who rated rafi as the best among the singers whose names he mentioned in his blog. it is an indisputable fact that everything was extraordinary about ghantasala. his voice, range, melody, talent, voice technique, his music direction etc. unfortunately, he could not get the recognition of rafi level in india only because of his regional status. otherwise, several musicians of both carnatic and hindustani music have rated him as the best of all male playback singers in india. when the govt of andhra pradesh nominated him for padmavibhushan award in 60’s, the govt of india refused on flimsy grounds due to dirty politics played by some veteran hindi film personalities whose names are known very well in film circles. this one particular fact shows how averse and jealous the hindi people are of exceptional talents coming from southern india. regards.
2220 – Musharaff ji
Your post deserves appreciations.
Bhushanji, post 2217. Please do not get me wrong. I did not intend to start a comparison between north and south region or put northern region over the south in terms of potentiality of music. I personally come from Bengal and do not have any biasness in any way towards any one of these two regions. It does not affect me in any way if any one puts any one region between these two above the other. I just wanted to make a comparison between two institutions, Bollywood film industry vis-a vis Telegu film industry in respect of competition the two industry face in accomodating potential talents. I think you will appreciate that traditionally the exposure and recognition that the actors and the musicians enjoy working under Bollywood is much more than that enjoyed by those working under Telegu film industry or any other regional forum such as Bengal film industry in Kolkata. It is therefore natural that talents from all over India shall compete to make a place in Bollywood to enjoy this exposure rather than compete in Kolkata or Andhra. Kumar Shanu, Abhijeet(not Abhijeet sawan of indian idol but the established singer Abhijeet) and Shan are all from Bengal who have earned fame in Bollywood. There may be other singers of south too those who have established themselves in Bollywood but I do not know their names. Sriramchandra is from Andhra. And if he gets his way into Bollywood I do not think he will ever go back to Andhra or if he goes back at all he will work there in a very limited scale and keep his major occupation in Bollywood like his predecessors, Kumar sanu, Abhijeet and Shan and numerous other singers who came to Bollywood outside from North. I think you now understand what I actually want to say. Since talents from all over India compete in a national forum like Bollywood, the competition in Bollywood shall always be more than regional forums like Bengal , Andhra or any other regional forum in India.
Regards.
Viswanathanji, post 2208.
To be precise I too agree with late Mr.Iyer who rated Ghantasala above Rafi as a musician or to be more appropriate as a music personality. Ghantasala, apart from being the most dominating playback singer in the south, was also a music director, a classical guru, in short an institution that provided the perfect platform for the new comers to learn classical music. If we sum up all these different virtues of Ghantasala he stands as a greater musical figure than Rafi.
However, in the area of playback singing Rafi excelled over Ghantasala in terms of fame and recognition that Rafi received both nationally and internationally. Rafi had an exceptionally melodious voice with an extraordinary voice range, a voice that had a universal adaptability to sing all types of filmy songs with equal expertise and perfection. Rafi’s talent coupled with the very high quality of tunes set by the music directors of Bollywood during the 50s and 60s made the songs attain unprecedented popularity among the masses. Even after 30 years of Rafi’s death these songs have not become old and have the same appeal when they were first played.
Regards.
Musharraf ji – 2218
why Rafi excelled over his co-singers?
What about kishore kumar? did he not excel over rafi in 70’s
I think I have to agree to vitthal ji, the platform makes a difference for fame, but talent is different. And surely, rafi or kishore if had been in southern industry, might be they might not have reached the success levels of ghantasala in that industry, that is where talent factor comes. My interpretation is that rafi and kishore being born in southern industry and not trying as hindi singers, perhaps they might not have reached that level of success which ghantasala had reached in that industry as a southern born artist. This is because ghantasala’s approach to a song itself was totally different which confirms his unique talent. Not that rafi could not approach a song, but as a whole, technically and otherwise, the approach adopted by ghantasala for a song is always different, which even music directors cannot anticipate but only appreciate when the song is rendered. There are even many classical musicians in the south and film playback singers other than ghantasala, but you might have noticed that taans rendered by ghantasala are obviously unique, which cannot be rendered in the same attraction or similarly by any other classical musician (despite having very good training) or filmy playback singer. That is one small example of the approach for a song adopted by him.
P Suseela has once confirmed that for a telugu film lava kusa, for which ghantasala was the music director, ghantasala asked suseela to practise the song for 20 days. Ghantasala stated in the beginning that even after 20 days I may not be satisfied with your practise. A fact that some songs composed by ghantasala required rehearsals for at least 60 to 70 times by female singers, until then ghantasala was never satisfied, such was his anticipation for perfection for a rendition. That is why his songs have such perfection which are hard to be replicated. Not to compare with rafi or any other playback singer, but ghantasala stands as a incomparable gem in indian playback singing, a talent perhaps cannot be found again.
Dear Vitthalji, post 2204 & 2205.
I have listened to the song of p.suseela. A nice song indeed, also melodious. In response I would request you to kindly listen to one song of Lata “Mohe panghat pe Nandalaal chched gayo re” from the film “Mughal-e-Azam.
As regards to Murthyji’s contention of relating Rafi’s success with Hindi language, I think has been appropriately answered by Sivaji in the second paragraph of his post 2206. But since you have again put forward the same argument to me I would like to say that the language may play a part to give more exposure to an artist but at the day’s end it is the talent that puts a singer ahead of others. There were other singers along with Michael Jackson enjoying the advantages of the platform during the same time but could they all be Michael Jackson? Could all batsmen playing one day matches in the same period become Sachin Tendulkar? Similarly in the 50s and the 60s, which is called the period of musical renaissance of India, there were other singers too singing with Rafi in the same platform but why Rafi excelled over his co-singers? It is definitely the talent and his quality of voice that made him distinguished from others.
Regards
Musharraf ji
“Now how many people from other states go to South and try their luck? And I may humbly ask you a question”
Exactly, you are there, it is not at all easy to be successful in the southern industry, so many people even if they try fail there. There lies the answer. Hemamalini was rejected in the south, she was declared not fit for acting as heroine, but was successful in bollywood, Indian Idol sri ramachandra sang a ghantasaala song on the request of hemamalini, who was one of the chief guests there, Since hemamalini was from the south, she knows well what is the talent of the south. Next, it is not the question of 4 crore or 400 crore population, only point is to clarify that one should not be under a misconception that hindi has more competition than the south. Certainly no. Moreover, if you make research, south india will have more people interested in music and showing interest towards learning music and becoming musicians as compared to north india. You can confirm this, the importance of music is like that in the south. Excepting mohd rafi or kishore kumar or to name other few, who will only receive good audiences for their programmes, there cannot be numerous musicians in the north who can draw vast audiences. In the south, there will be many musicians who can draw huge crowds for their programmes. So your post 2216 – if 50% from 4 crore population would have tried, hardly 2-3% might have tried from northern population, this can be easily known. That makes the difference between south and north from musical perspective.
Bhushanji-contd. Sorry my writing was interrupted. If in 60s, Ghantasala was in the peak among 4 crore population what was the total population of the north and also other States including Andhra when Rafi dominated Bollywood during that period?
Regards.
Dear Bhushanji, Post 2213 &2214,
Actually when I stated hundreds of singers are singing hindi songs I did not mean Bollywood singers only but those innumerable number of people who sing hindi filmy songs in all the nook and corner of India in various platforms. To name some, Indian Idol, Saregama are only a few of these platforms only in the national forums where contestants like Abhijeet Sawan, Sriramchandra and host of other young talents compete.They come from all over India, Andrha,Bengal, Maharashtra, so on and so forth. And what is their target? To make place in Bollywood. Some aspire to be Rafi, some Lata, some Kishore. And this urge to make a place in Bollywood is continuing since decades. That is why I told that in a national forum like Bollywood best talents fron all over India compete and stars like Rafi, Lata & Kishore had to make hard work to earn their respective popularity and fame.
Now how many people from other states go to South and try their luck? And I may humbly ask you a question
Musharraf ji – contd.
sorry, I missed manna dey in the list of hindi singers in my previous post. That may please be added.
Musharraf ji – post 2203
You had mentioned “there had been hundreds of singers singing in Hindi”
apart from rafi, kishore, mukesh, talat, mahendra, hemant, saigal(yester years) and in the current generation kumar sanu, udit narayan, could you kindly specify any other reputed male singer from hindi field ? Among females, it is lata, asha, geeta dutt, shamshad begum etc. to name a few. Even 15 names cannot come among popular singers, where are hundreds of singers. Kindly do not get carried away sir.
Similarly, in the south reputed names can be ghantasala, sp balasubrahmanyam, k j yesudas, p b srinivas, a m raja, jayachandran, t m sounderrajan – wherein ghantasala, spb, p b srinivas, am raja have sung many songs in tamil and kannada as well apart from telugu. Among females, p suseela , s janaki, jikki, p leela, etc. hence, it cannot be concluded that there are more singers in hindi than in the south. In the 60’s the population of andhra pradesh was roughly around 4 crores – can anybody think how only ghantasala could reach the top and sustain the position for 3 decades (without competition) and whether it is possible that no other might have tried out of the population of 4 crores. Certainly no, there was huge competition in the south, many singers tried but failed, due to the tougher intricacies involved in the telugu language. hence, the statement that hindi field is having more competition than regional languages is not correct. As somebody said even spb came up purely playing politics and not on the basis of pure distinct and unique talent as was possessed by his predecessor i.e ghantasala. if ghantasala would have played pure politics (which he never did), spb would never had got a single song or even rafi could not have sung a single song in telugu.
Siva and Ali,
My post was only a reply to Mr. Anil Cherian’s questions and nothing else, as I make it clear in my next post (no comparison of legends)
You are correct ali – to sing hindi songs rafi stands as one of the best example.
Mr.Viswanathan,
I have heard that Mr.Swaminathan Iyer is a man of carnatic knowledge and is currently no more. In fact this article written by him will be always remembered by musical fans – perhaps the lengthiest responses to this article by Mr. Iyer on the great mohd rafi – the true voice col of Mr. Iyer.
Siri – Thanks and regards.
dear vishwanath,
i am deeply sorry that mr. swaminath iyer is no more. i respected his views. i can perfectly understand if some consider ghantasala the best. it depends on what they value the most in music. this, of course, has lead to deliberate misunderstandings between fans. i’ve always stated that technical proficiency comes first and foremost…to a point. this is what some fans deliberately misinterpet. in any case, that’s all a petty matter. when you hear about people passing you realize that life is too short to squabble. what is important is that we enjoy the songs of these singers. i dare to say that given mr. iyer’s background in music, of course he’d have greater value for ghantasala’s type of singing, despite his immense respect for rafi. so while i respect his views and consider them for my own knowledge, we have different values and different conclusions. i don’t believe in life after death, but if there was, i wish mr. swaminath iyer happiness and thank him for imparting his excellent article with the world.
Dear Kolkatans,
As I am writing, a musical programme titled “Biswajeet’s Tribute to Mohd Rafi” is underway at the Kala Mandir. Guests include Biswajeet, Jackie Shroff, Waheeda Rehman, Asha Parekh and Zeenat Aman. The main singers are Mohd Aziz and Debashis Dasgupta. Although I am in Kolkata right now, I couldn’t make it to the programme. If any of you attended the programme, please let us know how it went.
With best regards,
P. Haldar
Sir vitthal ..It is like that fans like who and it is not important that I like Indian team that mean they are the best….even most of Kishore da fans they said mohd rafi is better singer….we will not be able to compare two singer not sang same tape of songs…….when kishore fan said me that Kishore da is better singer he should say how and If I say Mohd rafi is better I should say why…………ask people who worked with both…I know about Mohd Rafi only because I know about the people who spoke about him Mukesh son said him father said him if u want to be a singer u should sing mohd rafi songs not my,OP NAYAR one of the best MD and shammi in Bollywood they said they are because of M Rafi….
we never get the answer if we r not honest…….
Dear music lovers of all fans, – I know about Mr. Swaminathan Iyer, the author of this article.
I have seen many of the posts of many people here comparing legends with mohd rafi, the hindi legend, notably comparison between ghantasala, the southern legend and rafi. And many even commenting the author swaminathan iyer, (who is now no more) whom I can say that many even do not know. Mr. Swaminathan Iyer himself is a person with immense carnatic music knowledge and hails from tiruchi and whose grandfather was a direct disciple of saint sri thyagaraja. many have stated that Mr. Iyer had not mentioned ghantasala, needless to say, I heard that, swaminathan iyer rated ghantasala above rafi as a musician. The purpose of above article has be linked with the original article of Sri Swaminathan Iyer with his original post in the blog, SPB is greater than rafi as a singer, where it was necessary to argue in favour of rafi, as Iyer considered rafi as a more versatile singer than SPB, that was the main purpose of the above article and the main comparison was between rafi and spb, whom the tamilians in the blog were preferring SPB over rafi and mr. iyer, who had a immense carnatic music knowledge, supported rafi over spb. That was the main purpose of writing the above article and incidentally since it was a tamil forum, passing references have been made on other few notable singers from the south as well. yes, as many said ghantasala was avoided purposefullly and Mr. Iyer had immense respect for ghantasala (who too was a equally accomplished carnatic classical musician but was more successful as a versatile filmy playback singer due to his captivating melodious voice which enabled him to be more succesful in film industry ) who too was a part and parcel of classical concerts (but his film songs have been more famous than his classical renditions). Since the main intention was to prove rafi’s superiority over spb and not ghantasala’s overall superiority, ghantasala was purposefully avoided by mr. Iyer in the tamil blog (Ghantasala’s voice was considered more stronger & wider than rafi – ghantasala fans should be happy over this) . That is why he mentions in the article, most others murder the original (the word used is most and not all since Mr. Iyer had ghantasala in mind) The article is purely with reference to comparison with SPB and accordingly Mr. iyer has quoted yesudas as well for supporting rafi. If you read the original tamil blog, even tamilians state in their respective posts, Ghantasala is far superior to SPB and how SPB can be greater, many such posts are there. But the overall intention of the author is comparison between SPB and Mohd rafi, that is the purpose of the article. Neverthless, as a man myself being trained in carnatic music, I can confirm that even today ghantasala stands the light for learning and singing songs perfectly, whether classical or filmy. For that matter, it is a privilege to say that a person trained in carnatic music can easily render other forms of music anywhere in the world. As immediate posts say, even the indian idol winner Sri Ramachandra claimed, he learnt songs by hearing ghantasala songs. Hope the doubts are cleared now with regard to the above article.
Vitthal ji,
Nice posts. It is not a surprise that Sri Ramachandra from Andhra Pradesh won the indian idol top spot and probably may be landing as the next artist in the indian music industry. A ghantasala fan himself as you said, (I have seen eeanadu paper yesterday wherein he claims ghantasala songs as lessons for him to sing all types of songs) Sri Ramachandra sang the classical number of Ghantasala rasika raja from jayabheri film day before yesterday in hyderabad. Though the rendition cannot come close to the ghantasala’s rendition, yet was attractive from the indian idol’s voice range. The hindi actor Dharmendra commented, yes that he felt as if kishore kumar was singing when he heard sri ramachandra singing, but it has been commented by others that his voice is not similar to kishore kumar. You are correct, Sri Ramachandra was easily successful due to his practising of ghantasala songs, which enabled him to create the success in the indian idol show. Sri Ramachandra is also trained in carnatic music and this is another edge for him to establish himself in future in the music industry. He is only 24 years old and has won the lata mangeshkar award as a singer – success at a young age, thrilling.
I think this endless comparison between Rafi sahab and others has to end.
We should be enjoying and writing more about Rafi’s innumerable gems rather than go into arguments with fans of other singers. To each his own-music is subjective. As this site is about Rafi sahab let us mainly stick to that. Others can extol about their idols in their own sites(which sadly I find is by and large not as active as this one)
Just to prove one singer is superior , they should not keep harping that Rafi was only famous and not talented!!! and that too beacuse he was in Hindi film music. I have mentioned in many of my earlier posts that I have equal respect and admiration for all other singers. You can always praise a singer and extol his various aspects of singing without comparing with others and pulling them down.
Musharraf ji – post 2203 (no comparison between legends)
Fame and talent are two different issues, – a talented person might not achieve fame. Just see michael jackson, he is more famous and ranked as number one singer in the world. The popularity and fame is by virtue of his status on the world arena, but if michael jackson was in the telugu or tami industry, he would not have even been known beyond the boundaries, but the talent remains intact for him. Certainly the platform makes a difference, which has nothing to do with with the talent. In hindi film industry,( I prefer rafi over others, which point I have maintained at all times), rafi fans claim rafi as the greatest, kishore fans claim kishore as the greatest, saigal fans claim saigal as the greatest, but in telugu industry only one name it is ghantasala whose level is altogether different and none else, even today – no fan of any other telugu singer disputes this fact.
2162 – Reply to Mr. Anil Cherian ji
Sorry for the delay dear anil cherian, because I wanted to present some solid evidences for your questions raised therein.
1. You might have seen the indian idol programme recently – Sri Ramachandra from andhra has been the winner and yesterday he was awarded the lata mangeshkar award. Even dharmendra, the hindi actor was saying in the programme that he felt he was the perfect singer for him, further dharmendra mentioned that he was searching for kishore kumar when he heard sri ramachandra singing. Today I have seen the eenadu paper wherein sri ramachandra’s interview has come, he dwelt upon various musical songs and said that he is capable of singing any song hindi or english etc. and he concluded saying the line “my lessons for songs have been ghantasala songs – ghantasala is the guru for any song” which enable me to sing any song. You were asking whether today’s youth has any following for ghantasala. I am of the firm view and concur with Sri Ramachandra, that whoever is capable of attempting any ghantasala song can render any song but not vice versa.
2. The sa re ga ma programme in hindi you are aware – similarly SPB conducts paadutha teeyaga which is a famous programme – children from 5 years to 25 years mostly are the singers there – are you aware even a single programme does not move without numerous ghantasala songs.
3. P Suseela was the chief guest for one of the final event of paduta teeyaga of spb – when suseela saw the programme she made one remark addressing the current generation – it is a big surprise for me to see the currrent generation for trying to attempt ghantasala songs. If you give a deep thought to the statement of suseela, I need not explain further.
4. Most of the participants whoever render ghantasala song – with most of them SPB was never satisified in any of the programmes I have seen, but I have observed spb praising those singers for songs of other singers rendered by the youth. Now see the huge difference.
Musharraf ji and Murthy ji,
One point of Mr. Murthy, I accept and anybody has to accept, If telugu was the national language – ghantasala would have dominated in the same way he did in telugu, – to be more clear as Mr. Murthy says – reverse the situation, telugu industry in the national industry and hindi film industry is the regional industry – sure same situation for ghantasala without any competition would have been prevailed.
Musharraf ji,
Some of p suseela songs are greater than lata – which effect lata can also fail, for instance pl. hear this song of suseela for your views.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyKgHU5n5M4&feature=related
Dear Vitthalji and Murthyji,
Firstly thank you Vitthalji for your valued post wherein you have briefly but appropriately made a comparative analysis between the musical capability of Lata and Asha. Actually these are also the true reflection of my mind too.
Murthyji, I expected a little more elaborative answer from you on Lata-Asha issue. However, it is your personal prerogative whom you place above whom. To me Lata, the “Nightangle of India” is the greatest female playback singer of India.
As regards Rafi-Ghantasala isuue I do not like to continue the debate any further. I have already put forward my views in the matter more than once and stand fast to it. Your latest view of attributing Rafi’s success to Hindi language rather than his talent is in my opinion not a valid point. There had been hundreds of singers singing in Hindi but all can not be Mohammed Rafi or Lata Mangeshkar. Further please note, Mumbai is a national forum open to all where best talents from all over India compete. Rafi made his way up to the peak amid tough competition with other versatiles. Whether you like it or not it is now an open fact that Rafi’s musical image has reached such enormous heights both in terms of popularity and fame that any other playback singer in India dead or alive has been unable to reach. And last but not the least I would reqest you to read Lataji’s comments about Rafi in the link provided by Sudip Dat in post 2165 on July 30,2010.
Regards.
dear sri musharrafji,
thank you for your post 2198. you are absolutely right in saying that music is not confined to any boundaries, whether regional or national. but a song has a language to understand the meaning and the mood in which the song is sung. can we enjoy and remember songs in films without any lyrics? certainly no. and the lyrics convey the meaning and mood of the song. and if we do not understand what the lyric says, then we donot enjoy much the film songs. today rafi is far more popular(not famous) than ghantasala in india and it is not because of talent but because of hindi with national status and telugu being regional. if you count the number of fans of both the legends, the fans of rafi very easily outnumber the fans of ghantasala. even today, many and many do not know or have not heard about ghantasala or telugu language as telugu language is regional. unless a language is understood, the mood and the situation in which a particular song is sung cannot be felt. certainly, language is a medium of instruction through which one can convey his feeligs, moods etc to others.
coming to lata vs asha, let us not please debate as to who is better as our opinions differ very much. my musical ears say that certainly asha is better than lata in hindi and i rank both asha and suseela above lata in india. this is my honest mark. i am sorry if i am offending your feelings again. regards.
Musharaff ji and common man
In my personal view, lata is more attractive than asha, who is also well talented. Lata appears more melodious as compared to asha – more or less generally they are compared in similar lines to p suseela and s janaki from the south.
For instance, Hear lata pronouncing “mere jeevan ki anmit kahai hai too” from asli naqli film – tujhe jeevan ki dor se song with mohd rafi – hear the words “anmit” the soft effect lata displays can be heard in many number of her songs which in my view asha’s voice with regard to such soft effect – has lesser effect when compared to lata. On technical lines yes lata appears perfect on musical notes. Of course, both have their immense contributions which can be viewed from the numerous songs both have rendered.