Did R.D.Burman really preferred KK over Rafi?
This article is written by Mr.H.V.Guru Murthy.
A regular browser to web site mohdrafi.com, having gone through the letters of Rafi lovers would assume that R D Burman did not utilize Rafi properly, instead he preferred Kishore Kumar. Because of this reason, Rafi Fans are still upset with RDB even though he passed away a decade back.
Yes, it is true that RDB preferred KK over Rafi during early seventies. For that matter, which Music Director or Actor or Producer or Director will not have his preference. It was well known that Raj Kapoor always preferred Mukesh, Manoj Kumar preferred Mukesh or Mahendra Kapoor, B.R.Chopra films had Mahendra, MD Ravi also had plenty of songs with Mahendra so also O.P after he broke with Rafi. Similarly OP always had either Asha or Geetha Dutt and never Lata. Salil also used all other Singers. Director Subba Rao insisted on Mukesh for SAATHI even though the hero was Rajendra Kumar and MD Naushad, two Rafi Fans. Even Kalyanji Anandji had many films with Mahendra Kapoor, Mukesh and KK even though Rafi was instrumental in their raise through JAB JAB PHOOL KHILE, AAMNE SAAMNE, etc. LP, by all means Rafi Bhakts, used KK regularly in the early seventies even for Rafi heroes like Jeetendra, Dharmendra, etc. SJ also switched over to KK in movies like MAIN SUNDAR HOON, DIL DAULAT DUNIYA, KAL AAJ AUR KAL, etc. Of course, the music standard came down a notch or two in that period. But, well, it is their prerogative to have whomsoever they wanted though I am sure in heart of heart, why even openly, they would have admitted the superiority of Rafi over all other Singers. Similarly, RDB also used KK for almost all his movies in the early seventies as perhaps he had some special chemistry with him.
However, let us not forget that RDB used Rafi extensively during late sixties as his main playback singer right from the first movie. He gave hit music with Rafi in TEESRI MANZIL, NAQLI NAWAAB, CARAVAN, PYAAR KA MAUSAM, THE TRAIN, ABHILASHA, ADHIKAR, RATON KA RAAJA, etc. Later during late seventies he returned to Rafi and gave hits like SHAAN, HUM KISISE KUM NAHIN, ABDULLAH, ZAMANE KO DIKHANA HAI, etc. In between, he had Rafi in CHANDI SONA qawali with Mannadey (Ek Shok Hasina Se), YADON KI BAARAT (Title song and who can forget the duet with Asha Chura Liya Hai Tumne), DIL KA BAADSHAH (this Raj Kumar starrer had all songs by Rafi), THE GREAT GAMBLER (Raftasa Mera Naam), SHEHZADA (Solo Tere Attaroo and duet with Lata Kaahe Ko Bulaya), etc.
If a person cannot appreciate the greatness of Rafi, then it can be safely concluded that the person does not have a sense of music. Of course, RDB was a good MD though not a great MD like Naushad, Madan Mohan, OP Nayyar, SDB, etc. RD would have definitely known the great qualities of Rafi, the Singer. Just because he did not use Rafi extensively as one would expect, let us not degrade this MD who gave us some good songs in CHANDAN KA PALNA, PADOSAN, HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA, MERE JEEVAN SAATHI, AJNABEE, AMAR PREM, SANAM TERI KASAM, BHOOT BANGLA, BAHARON KE SAPNE (Rafi solo Zamane Ne Maare), PARICHAY, KINAARA, APNA DESH, ZAHREELA INSAAN, RAMPUR KA LAKSHAMAN (Pyaar Ka Samay with Lata, KK and Rafi), 1942 – A LOVE STORY, KATI PATANG to certain extent, etc. though he gave some very mediocre music in films like DEEWAR, SHOLAY, KITAAB, ZAKHMEE, RAFOO CHAKKAR, NAMKEEN, DHARAM KARAM and BIWI O BIWI (so un-RK film like), etc. so many forgettable movies as for as music was concerned.
The irony of RDB was either he gave good music or petered out to a very mediocre music in so many films. I read some where that Shashi Kapoor called RD as National Anthem Music Director. In those days, theatres used to play National Anthem at the end of the movie and the Hall doors used to be shut till the completion of the Anthem. As soon as the Anthem used to commence, our in-disciplined people used to rush to the Hall Door and wait for the door opening. Similarly, whenever RDB songs commenced in most of the movies, people used to rush to toilet.
Still, it is not fair that we use harsh and sometimes, un-parliamentary language against any body if they differ with our views. We cannot forget the contribution of all these MDs, Heroes, Singers, Directors, etc. in making the Indian Film Music so rich.
Binu Sir:
It seems You’ve missed the sarcasm in my post (abt. KK fanatics). I was actually taking a dig at them (on a lighter side offcourse). Yes, We have nothing to worry abt, after all we all appreciate Kishoreda for what he is and how much he contributed to HFM and anyway we are not in a battlefield, we are all here to appreciate good music.
BTW, I’m anxiously waiting for your ‘questions’ and let me tell you I’m fully with you in this regard, one shouldn’t be afraid of the truth (even if it concerns legendry figures) and we should openly come out with our views, opinions and questions.
REF 691,LET ME ADD FURTHER TO THE `PYAAR KA MAUSAM`, TAXI LOADED WITH THE COPIES OF THE LP OF THE FILM WERE DISTRIBUTED FOR FREE IN MUMBAI.
ANYHOW PEOPLE REMEMBER `PYAAR KA MAUSAM` FOR `NI SULTANA RE`
AND `TUM BIN JAON KAHAN `(RAFI SAAB VERSION`)
ref 696,kk was popular in 70`s,no doubt about it,rafi saab was greatest,no doubts about that also.
TOO ALL KK FANS,BEING POULAR & BEING GREATEST ARE TWO SEPERATE TERMS,IN THE FILM INDUSTRY TODAY SHARUKH KHAN IS POPULAR AND IS BEING COMPARED WITH AMITABH BACHCHAN,WHO IN MY OPINION IS THE GRATEST,AND THAT EVERBODY KNOWS ,SHARUKH IS NOTHING COMPARED TO THE GREAT BACHCHAN,HAD KK SUNG SONGS LIKE RAFI SAAB DID,THEN COMPARISON CAN BE MADE.
SAME APPLIES HERE ALSO RAFI SAAB IS UNIVERSITY,MAXIMUM KK CAN BE A FACULTY MEMBER.
rafi lovers : let me place it on record that i love the great songs of lata and asha ( didi and taai ) in industry songs besides all our great singers.
lata ji has kept her dignified silence in many matters and this must be appreciated. she has also almost stopped singing and recording according to our sources. we wish her good times ahead.
but , i have a few questions to be asked to asha b. and i would be doing it soon.
binu nair, mumbai
post 690.. anil cherian: KK fans use the same language, true. but my point is – see the popularity of these singers and compare it with the mohd rafi site. there are atleast five active rafi sites and the one which other singers have are “weak” with not much attendance.
this is the popularity of rafi saaheb which some men and women find it disturbing. but they are few in numbers so not to worry.
binu nair, rafi foundation, mumbai.
Mr. Anil Cherian (Ref Post 681)
It is said that Rafi-saab was supposed to sing “Mere naina sawan bhadon” as per a Vividh Bharti interview by Pancham, Gulzar and Asha, but Rajesh Khanna insisted on taking Kishore for this song. I am not sure how true this story is, as I haven’t heard the interview myself, I’ve only read it somewhere on the net. Rafi was the perfect choice for this song. Had he sung it, he would have turned it into another milestone like “Hum bekhudi mein” or “Dekhi zamane ki yaari” and countless other dard songs. If you notice, the alaap that is in the Lata version is missing in the KK version due to his limitations. Also, the brilliant tabla in the last stanza of the Lata version is also missing in the KK version. Lata’s version is pure classical, whereas KK’s version is a modified version. Pancham could have retained everything that the Lata version had, if Rafi had sung the song. It would have been mndblowing, imagine Rafi singing that haunting alaap in the beginning. Pancham made a very wrong choice here and in the end had to work around the limitations of KK. I think Kishore sang “Musafir hoon yaaron” well, although the Rafi touch would have been better. As for “Chingari ki bhadke”, Rafi would have sang it better and turned into another “Pyar hai ik nishan qadmon ka”. These Pancham creations were all meant for Rafi.
———————–
Mr. Sanjay Arora,
The HKKN qawwali is outstanding, I agree with your write-up about it. Pancham was the best qawwali composer among his contemporaries (in my view), and with Rafi he was able to create amazing qawwali’s. The RD-Rafi combo is indeed very deadly and should get a lot of credit.
———————–
Mr. XXX,
I don’t have the link to the Rafi Kudrat song. It was on Youtube a while ago but its now been removed. I will try and find you a link to this song. “Ni sultana re” is an amazing folk song, definitely one of Pancham’s best in that genre. The song has a unique charm and freshness.
Choosing Rafi’s Top 10 songs from the 70’s is a very tough task. I have noticed that most of the lists have been only for solo songs so I will also choose only solos. My favourite lists keep on changing each time so here is my list for now:
1. Tum jo mil gaye ho – Hanste Zakhm – Madan Mohan
2. Pyar hai ik nishan qadmon ka – Mukti – R.D Burman
3. Likhar tera naam zamin par – Laila Majnu – MM/Jaidev (some say this song was composed by Jaidev after MM passed away)
4. Acha hi hua dil toot gaya – Maa Behen Aur Biwi – Sharda
5. Chand mera dil – HKKN – R.D Burman (this song is in my view Pancham’s best chord-based progression composition, with the amazing string guitar and bass guitar)
6. Aaj mausam bada beimaan hai – Loafer – Laxmikant Pyarelal
7. Dil ne pyar kiya hai – Shararat – Ganesh
8. Jhoomta sawan dekho aaya – Do Khiladi – Usha Khanna
9. Aaja tujhko pukare mere geet – Geet – Kalyanji Anandji
10. Kahin ek masoom – Shankar Hussain – Khayyam
ref 681,i fully endorse your observation on the above song,the song follows the super duper success of `laila majnu`.i listened to this qawwali after a gap of many years to be precise just before writing the mail,.
taking rdb on his home turf`hai agar dushman zamana,-koi aaye, -hum kisi se kum nahin.`
post 691:
the song “tum bin, jaoo kahan” was recorded in rafi’s voice first, the tape sent by rdb to kk and kk imrovised on it. the kk version was filmed on bharat bhooshan the older star and rafi version on shashi kapoor. the kk version was played again again again and again and made a hit, a music critic from filmfare mag. informs me. no, i have not filmed/taped this episode so some deewanes/doubters may not ask for – proof. no, i do not have it.
thank you,
binu nair, mumbai……
Re. Post # 680: No one can come close to Rafi Saheb, not even KK, who was very far behind to Rafi Saheb in singing, a true fact world knows!
Mr.Myk:
Thank you very much for the link to the sad version of ‘tum bin…’. Rafisahab’s singing is just phenomenal. That change in scale right at the end is a highlight, it’s also the most difficult part, he is actually raising the scale without orchestra support. ie, orchestra was still playing at the original scale and suddenly Rafisahab switches sclaes out of no where… amazing feat…
Mr.Rafian:
Nice of you to post your favs. Actually I haven’t listened to many of them, I’ll try to hear them out and come back to you.
Mr.XXX:
Yes, we do have many common favs. Actually my top 20 listing would contain almost all the songs in yours and I suppose your top 20 would contain most of my top 10s.
All:
It amazes me that all the KK fanatics speak the same language-almost word-by-word, with several jargons like ‘dethroning’, ‘history’, and off course ‘RDB’. Really amazing…
Post 676 : the whole world knows about it. lata wanted 10 percent royalties from producers and she formed a trade union of singers and asked rafi to support her.
rafi saaheb said : I am happy with the fees i receive for the song and thereafter its the producer who has to reap/gain/lose. lata disliked this and declared she will not sing with rafi ji any more.
lata began losing songs, her recordings came down and suman, mubarak,asha and others reaped the harvest during lata’s absence. rafi’s popularity remained untouched and later lata made moves with jaikishan, r.d.b and others to fend fences with rafi. they later patched up after three years.
her ego was hurt and her songs reduced. this is the “real” reason. pls read available books on music and the legends or write to me on my personal e.mail for more facts as there are some limitations here in., to write more which u may understand.
Binu Nair, binus2000@hotmail.com
correction ::
rdb’s best folk song came through pyar ka mausam(1969), and the song was ni sultana re
mr.myk,
iam also agree with you that carvan and mela were best folk albums by rdb but still i think his best folk songs came through the pkm(1969)…
mr.myk
thanks for the link, plz share with us your fav songs list of rafi sahab from 70s,
regarding that kudrat song, no iam really not aware of any of the film versions, plz provide me link for ths one too..
mr. anil cherian and mr.rafian1,
thanks for your list of songs, songs mentioned by both of you are really gems, mr.rafian1, nazar aati nahin manzil is a great song by ravindra jain, rj was one of the best from 70s, by the way here is my list of rafi solo songs from 70s for this day. mr.cherian, we do have few common favs::
1. barbaad-e-mohabbat ki dua sath liye jaa
2.likhkar tera naam
3.tum jo mil gaye ho
4.tumse kahu ek baat
5.kahin ek masoom
6.pyar hai ik nishan
7.mehbooba teri tasveer
8.mujhe mat roko
9.nazar aati nahi manzil
10.jina to hai usi ka jisne ye raaz jana…
……………… …………………. …………………..
ref to 680::
kishore never dethroned rafi as far as singing is concerned, yes kk was popular bcoz rdb tagged him with the two superstars of 70s(rajesh k and amitab b). kishore was great singer but never close to the vocals of rafi, listen to lala-majnu(super melodious album) and decide yourself whether kishore was able to sing these types of songs or not …
kishore was never able to sing these type of songs:: likhkar tera naam, nav kalpana nav roop, hai agar dushman and many others but rafi could easily sing the songs belonging to the genre of “o mere dil ke chain” “ye kya hua” etc …
rafi sung superhit song from almost every genre(even in 70s), but kishore didn’t, but if you still think that kishore dethroned rafi than you must have been suffering with ear problems buddy..
but still i consider kishore among the one of the six great singers we ever had(which he was), and i don’t want to unnecessarily bring down kishore, who always showed his great respect for rafi…
REF : MAIL 680,KK NEVER DETHRONED RAFI SAAB,DO NOT LIVE IN A FOOL`S PARADISE,AFTER RAFI SAAB`S DEATH KK COULD NOT EVEN OVERTOOK RAFI SAAB`S CLONE SHABBIR KUMAR & MOHD.AZIZ.EVEN HIS MENTOR RDB HAD TO INCLUDE A SONG IN `ITHIHAAS`TO MAKE HIS ALBUM COMMERCIALLY VIABLE.MOHD.AZIZ WAS RECORDING FOR RDB `EK MAIN AUR EK TU`& `BELAGAAM`EVEN THOUGH THE ALBUMS HAD KK & AK.IT IS PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO ARE DAY DREAMING,AND IN THE LAST DAYS OF RAFI SAAB ,RDB WAS RECORDING MORE WITH RAFI SAAB`THE BURNING TRAIN`,`SHAAN`ETC.
IF YOU REMOVE RDB KK IS A BIG ZERO.KK WAS CREATED MORE BY MEDIA AND FIXING OF BGM,WHERE A CRAP LIKE `DO BICHARE BIN SAHARE`WAS RULING BGM.AND MORE BECAUSE OF RAFI HATERS
BY THE WAY HOW MANY FILMFARE AWARDS KK WON BEFORE RAFI SAAB`S DEATH AND AFTER RAFI SAAB`S DEATH.KK IN THOSE 4 YEARS OF SO CALLED PHASE HAD TO BE CONTENED WITH AFTER MK & MUKESH.
PLEASE SEE THE STATUS OF KK AFTER 80`S,REFUSING TO RECORD WITH SHABBIR KUMAR WHO HAPPENED TO BE RAFI CLONE,KK AFTER RAFI SAAB`S WAS IN TOP LEAGUE BECAUSE OF BEING THE ONLY SINGER LEFT BEHIND.
HOPE THIS CLARIFIES WHO RULED HINDI FIL MUSIC IT WAS ONLY ONE & ONE RAFI SAAB TILL HIS DEATH.
To Mr xxx and ANil
Here is my top-20(I have included only solos and that too light /Sentimental songs only) between in the so called lean phase(1972-75).
Please tell me which one among them is not a ‘gem’
Haseen Dilruba(Roop tera Mstana-1972)
Na tu zameen keliye(Dastan-1972)
Ik na ik din yeh(Gora or Kala-1972)
Dil ne pyar kiya(Shararat-1972)
Dil ka soona saaz(Ek nari do roop-1973)
Tere naam ka deewana(Suraj or Chanda-1973)
Tum jo milgaye(Hnste Zakhm-1973)
Koi nahi hain mera(Samjotha-1973)
Din hain yeh bahaar(Love marriage-1973)
Apni amkhom mein(Toakkar-1973)
Aaj mousam(Loafer-1973)
Hum ko to jan se pyari(Naina-1973)
Nazar aati nahi manzil(Kanch or heera-1974) (I love to love this song for ever)
Teri galiyom mein(Hawaz-1974)
Zindagi abto tere naam se(Shantar-1974)
Koi phool na khila(Pap ki Gudiya-1974)
Mein vohi vohi baat(Nayadin naya raat-1974)
Yeh duniya nahi jaagir(Chawkidar-1974)
Aisa na hoke in wadiyom mein(Aakhri dao-1975)
Dostom mein koi baat chal jaati hain(Prem Kahani-1975)
Zindagi zinda dili ka naam(Zinda dil-1975)
Mr.Myk:
Thanks for replying. Could you tell us your views on how ‘chingarie….’, musafir hu yarron..’ and ‘mere naina…’ would have sounded if sung by Rafi sahab? Would they have been as popular?
Mr. Sanjay:
The song in question is ‘hai agar dushman…’, right? Have you noticed the voice modulation by Rafisahab in this song? The voice is quite heavy and a bit husky (the ideal tone/texture for a quawwali) while retaining the customary smoothness.
Arrora,
Stop day dreaming! RD preffered KK over Rafi because KK could deliver better than Rafi! In 60’s KK was way behind Rafi but in 70’s KK just dethroned Rafi. So don’t be jealous of KK. History cannot be changed with your day dreams. KK-Lata-RD-Asha combo ruled the 70’s and 80’s and Rafi ruled 50’s & 60’s. I love Rafi but i hate somebody disrespecting KK! Talking big things are always easy but no body yet can sing like Rafi or KK!
mr.myk i fuly endorse your views and in my opinion the rafi/rdb combo was more dealier and lethal than kk/rdb combo.
My only regret for pancham da,is that he did not give more ammunation to this deadly combo.
Just listen to the qawwali by rafi saab,in hum kisi se kum nahin ,it is rendered in such a way by rafi saab,it can safely be presumed that a qawwal who has done nothing but sung qawwalis in his entire life has rendered that qawwali.it is such a perfect melody starting with the taditional alaap of the qawwals.
hats off to the deadly rafi/rdb combo.
ref 676,it is simple human physcology,rafi saab is the greatest singer of all times,if you say lata ji is the greatest,than the question comes greater than rafi?it starts from here and everybody knows the answer.
Mr. XXX,
Here is the link to the Rafi sad version of ‘Tum Bin Jaun Kahan’. You can download the song from the same page:
http://www.mohdrafi.com/meri-awaaz-suno/tum-bin-jaavun-kahan.html
In regards to folk music, I think Pancham was very talented in this aspect too. Dada Burman, LP and SJ were masters at this genre, but Pancham also composed beautiful folk-based songs. His songs with Rafi-saab in this genre as you mentioned are all fantastic. I don’t think Pancham gets as much credit when it comes to composing folk songs. Remember the start of the duet version of ‘Pucho na yaar kya hua’ with the Nepali chants, that gives you a picture of the hills and mountains, this song has a folk touch as well. ‘Deewana mujhsa nahin’ was also based on a Nepali folk song and Pancham turned it into a great song. There are many other folk type songs composed by Pancham but I think Caravan and Mela are his two best folk-based albums. They have a lot of variety in songs, melody, orchestration etc.
What do you think of the song “Dukh sukh ki har ik mala” by Rafi-saab from Kudrat ?. This version was again only in the film (like the Rafi sad version of “Tum bin jaun kahan”). The other version that released on albums was sung by Chandrashekhar Gadgil. I think the Rafi version is much better, its more soulful, and it has better music as well, with the haunting electric guitar, and the great rhythm.
——————
Mr. Anil Cherian,
I think it is because of unnecessary over-hype of the KK-RD combo that the Rafi-RD combo doesn’t quite get its due. If you look at the Rafi-RD combo, there is a lot of gold in it, and the quality to quantity ratio is very high. You can’t say the same about the KK-RD combo, they had a great run for a few years, but after 1975, RD’s tunes for KK began to dry up. Whereas for Rafi-RD, the gems are spread across time, the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s, and their combo never dried up, it was always fresh, soothing, and everlasting.
Could any body please explain me? about the messy thing happened between rafi saab and both sister lata and asha. what was reason why these sisters hate rafi saab…
Mr.XXX:
Let me try to list out my top 10.. it’s a tough ask actually, top 20 would have been easier.
Likhkar tera naam
Kahi ek masoom nazuk si ladki
Barbad-e-mohabbat
Ye jo chilman hai
Ek na ek din ye kahani
Nafrat ki duniya ko chodkar
Mere dost kissa
Kya hua..
pyar hai ek nishan
Teri galiyon mein
There are certain films which I’m not sure whether belonging to ’70s or ’60s like ‘Heer ranjha’ and ‘Geet’. If they are ’70s’ films I’d definitely include ‘yeh duniya…’ and ‘aaja tujko pukare…’ in the listing and I’m not too sure which songs I’d leave out in that case.
I’m looking forward to see your listing (with comments, off course)
Mr.XXX and Mr.Myk:
It’s a revalation for me that RDB and Rafisahab did create many gems as a combo. But why this team is not heralded like RDB-KK combo? Is it because of the sheer quantity that the latter combo produced or the fact that RDB and Rafisahab teamed up in less-than-big banners, many times?
ref to p 671::
mr.myk,
as usually it was nice write up by you, i agree that rr didn’t get much chances to compose in classy genre otherwise he would have created nice music there also.btw, i haven’t heard this slow version of rafi sahab from pkm, could you plz provide me the link for this one….
regarding the song aaja aaja from tm, iam sure this song would beat any of the elvis number or any other rock ‘n’ roll world wide, the energy by rafi ji and asha is superb and that breath effect is great too..
other than quawwali, pancham also took rafi ji in the traditional folk based melodies(dholak beats normally in keherva taal), l-p were the masters of this genre and rdb also created nice songs in this genre with rafi ji::
1.ni sultana re … pkm(1969)
2.kitna pyara vaada…carvan(1971)
3.chadti jawani… carvan(1971)
4.goria kahan tera desh…carvan(1971)
5.rut hai milan ki..mela(1971)
6.gori ke hath mein..mela(1971)
7.koi aur dunia mein… pyar ki kahani(1971)
8.ek pate ki baat… pyar ki kahani(1971)
9.kahe ko bulaya.. hamare tumhare(1979)
10.tere attaro(punjabi folk based)…. shehzada(1973)
what do you think, how good was pancham in this genre in which l-p were masters??
post no.666 dr.Khaja saaheb : thanks for the “bouquet’s of roses” for the unsurpassed, un-paralled, melodious and king of melody : mohammad rafi saaheb.
the rafi foundation is completing “a year” and the fragrance of rafi-nama is travelling all frontiers and borders.
keep encouraging us. thanks.
binu nair : rafi foundation, mumbai, : 09833250701 : binus2000@hotmail.com
http://www.rafifoundation.com
I noticed that I didn’t finish writing on the song Aa Raat Jaati Hai. Here is the complete sentence:
Aa Raat Jaati hai – this is a waltz composition, SJ were masters at this genre, RD didn’t use it too much, but here it was excellent. Great music as well in this song.
(Ref Post 661, 662): Mr. XXX,
When RR zoomed in with Kunwara Baap, he was noticed as a great talent. Rafi-saab’s “Saj rahi gali meri maa” topped the annual BGM in his debut film which was a big achievement for the composer. But it was Julie that got him more fame and recognition and set him on the path of success. He was a serious challenger to Pancham in the area of western/trendy music, as well as music in general, and also a challenger to other MD’s in general as well. Come 1975, Pancham was most likely recognized as the leader in western music, most subjects that involved such music went to him, and in 1975 he came out with Khel Khel Mein. However it wasn’t that great or as fresh a score as Julie the same year. His previous western based scores such as Teesri Manzil, The Train, Chhalia Jawani Diwani had more freshness. Although he used western music frequently in his albums, he combined it with other styles unless he got a subject where he just composed western-based songs a la Teesri Manzil and so forth. Those albums I listed above and more are recognized as pure western albums, whereas for example Caravan had a mixture of styles, as did HRHK, you could term MJS as a western album but not in the same league of TM or The Train, and so forth. Julie was a western subject with western/based music but it also had a great bhajan by Asha/Usha which added the indian touch to it, even though it was still regarded as a western album.
It was like a boxing match, RR the challenger, facing Pancham who held the title, and RR was delivering many punches, one after another, Julie, Inkaar, Yehi Hai Zindagi, Priyatama, Swami, Des Pardes, Ek Hi Raasta, Doosra Aadmi, Jay-Vijay and so forth, all had trendy, classy and everlasting music. RD on the other hand didn’t have a score that could create a huge impact to match these albums until he came out with HKKN, which was the knockout punch. This album was brilliant, an awesome soundtrack. The album had a qawwali, a sad solo (which won the two best awards), a romantic duet, a happy solo, two fun/happy duets and to top it all off a medley consisting of four excellent songs with “Chand mera dil” being the icing on the cake. This album revolutionized music and consolodated Pancham’s position as the top trend-setter.
1975-1980 were golden years of RR’s music. He showed all his musical genius in these five years, he put everything to test and his creativity, freshness and innovation was at an all-time high. Even his best tunes were in this period too. I agree, he gave a good number of his tunes to KK, but he also gave a good number of his tunes to Rafi too. Both KK and Rafi received his best tunes on the male side while on the female side it was Lata with Asha, Suman and others coming next. His using KK might have been due to producer pressure, because how do you explain Rafi’s absence from Julie, BBM, Swami and other albums. RR did lose his favourite on July 31st 1980, look at what they were doing around that time, with Aap Ke Deewane, Unees Bees, Swayamvar, Shakka, Kaala Patthar all Rafi dominated albums from RR as well as songs from other albums too. His quota of tunes with KK was drying up (as you mentioned) and he seemed all set to have a long innings with Rafi as his main singer with KK as a secondary choice (after having used both of them as prime choices earlier), but then Rafi-saab left us. His tunes with Rafi never dried up, no ones tunes with Rafi ever dried up, how could they, because he was the best singer of all time.
Now coming to the RD-RR comparison, both were similar in many ways. Both had a great knowledge of rhythm and fusion, both were top class arrangers, both had the ability to use different instruments, and both were melody-oriented composers. Furthermore, both were trend-setters and combining creativity with melody and trying something new was a hallmark of both RD and RR. Both composers are my favourites, but I would slightly rank Pancham ahead in terms of creativity, experiments and rhythm, as well as being a trend-setter. Also Pancham used bass in the most ultimate way, in this aspect he had no peers, and although RR used bass great, Pancham was far ahead. I think both composers used their violins in a great way but RR could be ahead of Pancham in this department. In terms of opening up KK’s voice, RR was better, he extracted maximum out of KK’s vocals more than Pancham. Both composers used Lata’s vocals great, RD used Asha better and both used Rafi-saab in a great way too, but I think Pancham did more experiments with Rafi-saab. Other singers also sang great songs under Pancham and RR too. Both had different styles and you could recognize their compositions from their trademarks. I think RR produced better male duet as well as better triads, and at times he produced better music and more fresher music than anyone including Pancham. But as far as overall freshness goes, maybe Pancham would have the edge followed by RR and others.
Coming to classical music, RR definitely had the talent to compose for classical-oriented films, but I don’t think he received such subjects. However he did compose classical-based/flavoured songs in choice films during that 1975-1980 phase. I think Pancham was the best classical-based composer among his contemporaries. Look at his qawwalis, they were pure genius, and I think RR could compose great qawwalis too, remember “Badi door se chalkar” from Jay-Vijay by Rafi, but Pancham was better in this genre. Both were excellent in trendy music, but I think as far as being more versatile, Pancham was ahead of RR. There are a variety of albums and songs that Pancham produced that puts him ahead of RR, even though RR produced his own variety in albums and songs.
Coming to Rafi-saab, RR only had a good five years to work with the greatest singer of all time. Whereas Pancham had a longer association with him, and those reasons you explained could be why Rafi was used on choice occasions from 1972-1975 in Pancham’s camp. However, Pancham’s best definitely came with Rafi and so did RR’s. Pancham used Rafi a lot contrary to popular view, and their association is excellent. RR also used Rafi a lot during those five years, and their association was excellent too, but had he had more time to work with him we would have seen many more songs from this combo. To make a fair comparison, the period 1975-1980 should only be taken into account when taking both MD’s work with Rafi. I love both composer’s works with Rafi-saab during this phase, they both gave him excellent songs, its tough to choose who was ahead in composing for Rafi during this time. But if I had to make a choice, it would be Pancham, because of the great variety in songs, then RR would come next with the others. Ofcourse LP produced so many great songs full of variety with Rafi-saab during this phase so it would be both Pancham and LP followed by the others.
Rafi-saab had a different way of singing songs under every composer, including Pancham and RR.
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LP always had the commercial edge over Pancham, but in the 1975-1980 phase they also produced great quality music. Again, its tough for me to choose who the clear winner was, I think both were excellent in this phase, but L-P were always ahead when it came to the commercial aspect although both produced great quality. I think RR was a serious challenger to all MD’s and at times, he looked like he was producing the most fresh and best music of that period. If you had two parts for #1, they would be 1a)RD/LP and 1b) RR with the rest following. KA were not the same KA as before, they produced nice music at that time but works like Don, MKS, Farishta Ya Qatil, Qurbani etc. all leaned more towards the action genre and funk music, and it definitely is a step lower than JJPK, HMJ, Aamne Samne, Geet, Tamanna, Safar, JMN etc. which was a mix of class, mass, western music etc. and that was when KA were at their best. In 1970, they were serious challengers for the #1 position but LP and RD went ahead of them after.
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Mr. XXX, and Mr. Anil Cherian,
I would like to mention one amazing song, and that is Rafi-saab’s sad version of “Tum Bin Jaun Kahan” entitled “Meri nazar mein sirf tum ho”, the climax song in Pyar Ka Mausam. This one song eclipses many of KK’s sad songs under Pancham. I feel this is the best version of “Tum bin jaun kahan”. There is so much dard and emotion in Rafi’s voice that this ranks as one of his masterpiece gems under Pancham. This version never released on records, and is only available in the film. Had it released, I am sure it would have stormed the charts and toppled all the other versions of “Tum Bin Jaun Kahan”.
KK’s sad version fades away after listening to this sad version by Rafi. Excellent use of the piano by Pancham, he didn’t use the piano that much but when he did it was fantastic. Rafi-saab is amazing as usual in this song, great lyrics by Majrooh and outstanding music, especially the saxophone that trails off towards the end of the song, it reminds me of the saxophone in the sad version of KA/Rafi’s “Raju ek khwaab hai”. I think both times, the saxophone may have been played by Manohari Singh.
What do you think of this song Mr. XXX and Mr. Anil Cherian ?.
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Mr. XXX mentioned “Gulabi Aankhen” and the use of the electric bass guitar, it was an awesome experiment, how about looking at more experiments done by Pancham with Rafi:
Aaja Aaja Main Hoon Pyar Tera – the breath effect of “Aaja a ha aaja a ha aaja” being used as part of the rhythm, absolutely brilliant.
Aye Jaan-e-wafa – brilliant use of the electric guitar in this song, there is similar use of the guitar in KK’s “jaan-e-jaana” from Samadhi but the guitar in Rafi’s version is better.
Chand Mera Dil – from the opening music to the awesome chord-based progression, and the guitar combined with the bass guitar, Rafi’s sweet and sugary rendition, a masterpiece.
Aa Raat Jaati hai – this is a waltz composition, SJ were masters at this genre, RD didn’t use it too much.
Churaliya Hai Tumne – pop music, rhythm, and use of the guitar at their very best.
Maine Poocha Chand Se – in this song, the tabla is used and emphasized on selected words, excellent innovation, and the music is brilliant.
Mere Liye Aati Hai Shaam – first time Pancham used the ‘triple bongos’ to great effect.
Pal Do Pal Ka Saath Hamara – the qawwali set in indian/western mode with the sound of the train coming twice in the song, only a genius could create such a song.
There are many more Pancham/Rafi songs that we could talk about which have various experiments in them.
mr.anil cherian,
i think its an endless debate as you correctly said that its simply a matter of taste, however what i observed that rdb was better in western and classical genre and l-p were better in traditional folk based melodies however both of them were talented enough to compose in any genre::
btw, could you plz share with us yours top ten rafi solos list from 70s, let me see how much it corresponds with mine..
Dr.Khaja Aliuddin:
Thank you.
Greetings and best regards.
Anil Cherian
Mr.XXX:
Yes, RDB was good in his own way and as you rightly said, innovative; and I like many of his gems. However personally I would rate LP over him (even in terms of ’70s output), it’s simply a matter of taste . I just love that ‘LP feel’ (with all those dholaks and folk rhythms). My preference has also a lot to do with the fact that LP’s songs ( a good number of them) were rendered by my favs- Rafisahab and Lataji and I believe they brought out yet another dimension of Rafisahab’s vocal prowess (Nazar na lag jaaye…., aaj mausam…, dard-e-dil…etc.). I also think LP were much more consistent, even the mediocre LP compositions weren’t too harsh on one’s ears.
Speaking abt. Illyaraja, I’d say he’s someone in the RDB mould, but more dedicated and therefore more consistent. Like RDB, his music is more global than Indian; I mean you wouldn’t always find (as a rule) that typical Indian feel associated with Naushadsaab, MM, Khayyam or LP (generally speaking) in a Illyaraja song. Off course there are several glorious exceptions, as in the case of RDB. There’s another song (in my knowledge) that Illyaraja has adapted from HFM- ‘Kasme vaade pyaar wafa….’.
re to p 665::
anil ji you mentioned::{I suppose LP were the only MD who were able to put their feet down and got what they really wanted (in terms of singers), but even they had to come down a couple of rungs in terms of quality to be with the tide}
yes l-p do came out with excellent songs in 70s too, infact i also have a soft corner for l-p, their music in 60s was better than those of their contemporaries and very melodious, but its a fact that bulk of assignments ruined their quality in 70s and 80s, i think rdb was definitely better than l-p im quality, there was always a freshness and innovations in his songs, take gulabi aakhen, what a great use of guitar he made, have anyone ever heard this kind of sound before, take prelude of “chand mera dil” which was again a very unexpected sound…
south great md illaya raja was also huge admirer of rdb,illaya raja never admired the kishore kumar, ir was rafi ji’s fan but still he was so much impressed with the tune of “musafir hoon yaaron” by pacham,that he made tamil version of the song(inspiration,not copy), such was an impact of rd, but yes l-p in 70s always managed to commercially surpass rdb, and l-p were great mds beyond any doubt….
Hello to all rafi Lovers,
i am going to write a beautiful sher written by Indo-pak’s renowned philosopher and poet Allama Iqbal, which perfectly fit on our legend Rafi sahab.
” Hazaaron saal nargis apni be noori pe roti hai
badi mushkil se hota hai chaman me deedawar paida”
With regards to all Rafi lovers, especially to HV Guru Murthy Sahab, Mr.MYK, Mr.xxx, AS Murthy sahab, Anmol singh Sahab, Hussain Shaikh Sahab,Binu Nayyar Sahab, P. haldar sahab, Raju Korti sahab, Venkatdri Sahab,Saleem Shaikh sahab, Vikas Sharma Sahab, Anil Cherian sahab, Waseem Sahab, Shad Khan saheb, Ritesh Mallik sahab, Mehboob sahab, Aseer Sahab, etc .
Please forgive me if I did not mention any other name. I will not forget to mention Mr.AJV_bristol_U.K.’s name
Long live Rafi sahab,
Dr. Khaja Aliuddin
Chicago
For Mr.XXX:
I heard ‘pyar hain ek nishaan…’ quite a few times. It feels better and better everytime (the way it typically happens with Rafisahab songs). I think I’ll rank it right up there along with ‘yeh jo chilman..’ and ‘nafrat ki duniya ko…’. (You know, I have a soft corner for LP) but not in the same league (as you rightly put it) as Laila-Majnu and other MM compositions (of ’70s) or ‘Kahi ek masoom nazuk…’ or SDB tunes (jil mil sitaron ka…., teri bindiya…).
I also feel the same way abt. RR. Infact his plight was similar to several other MDs of that period (IMO), they had to go with commercially viable factors, sacrificing their personal interests/judgement and even their artistic brilliance. I suppose LP were the only MD who were able to put their feet down and got what they really wanted (in terms of singers), but even they had to come down a couple of rungs in terms of quality to be with the tide.
Re. Post 663: KK fans have nothing to write on that site, just visit KK site you’ll find boring and useless comments. This ajv is among KK fans. He finds nothing to write there.
Ajv from Bristol,
do you not have anybody to talk to on the KK site!
btw i am an indian living in the UK (Leicester) not a Pakistani.
Not that it should matter which race, creed or nationality i belong to.
You were making a comment that i was a Pakistani and only Pakistanis like Rafi.
The truth is all sorts of people like Rafi sahab becuase he was the GREATEST EVER.
mr.myk,
how would you compare rr and rdb from 1975-80?? what i observed that rdb was much ahead of rr in classical genre from this period, apart from this rdb also composed some great quawaalis for rafi ji from 1975-80, two of them released after 1980(kya takaluf hai walla, yar mil gya to)..
but we can say that rr gave really tough competition to rdb in trendy music, infact if you remove hkkn than rr would knock out rdb in couple of rounds, but hkkn not only strengthening the trendy music of rdb from that phase but also eclipsing the rr’s work from that period..
what is your take on this rdb-rr saga?? in which departments do you think rr surpassed rdb??
ref to 658::
mr.myk,
i think mageshakar sisters definitely has lot to do with rafi’s absence from pancham’s camp, “asha b getting close to rdb”, “rafi’s haj yatra”, “rajesh khanna wave”, “kk’s rise” .. all these concurrent events gave rise to that 1972-75 lean phase of “farishta”, anyways, this is different story altogether, by the way iam agree with you that rdb, lp, rr would have produced wonders with rafi sahab in 80s too, rafi ji’s death affected lot to rr also, rr was at his creative peak when he lost his favorite singer, his quota of nice tunes with kishore was almost over and iam sure he must be planning something big at that time keeping rafi on mind, he employed kishore for most of his tunes from 1975-80, but that might be due to producer’s pressure, otherwise the ratio would have been much more favorable towards rafi, after all rafi was his god…
by the way where do you rank rr as an md from 1975-80 period, l-p were clear winners from this phase(as you think), so who according to you finished at no.2??
rest of the dominant composers of this phase were-rdb,ka,rr,rj …
i found rdb leading among them, as his range was really nice
at one extreme he gave the albums like ::
kinara, karm,mukti,devta,aandhi,khushboo, bundal baaz, balika badhu, mehbooba,jivan-mukt,ghar,ratandeep,jurmana,manzil,sitara,aanchal,jal mahal, khoobsurat..
and at other extreme we have albums like::
hkkn, shaan,golmaal, the burning train, abdullah, bulandi,dhongee,the great gambler,phandebaaz,shalimar,kasme-vaade,heeralal-pannalal, kitab,deevar,sholey,dharam-karam,khel khel mein….
what do you think?? who ended up with 2nd position??
Mr. Bristol:
If you want to play nasty (typical of KKKans) , let me inform you that this is ‘simbly’ not the place. I suggest you go and try your things in your fav’s site/communities, you will find plenty of your ilks over there.
rafi shahab is not only a phenomenon singer bt he is a great human being also.regarding the comparision is concerned, rafi shahab is far much better then kk.his myraids amount songs he sung ,the way he handle the song that was simply outstanding……
rd uses kk more then that of rafi shahab.. that was simply his perception..we cannot challenge or debate them….
according to my opionion rd didnt use rafi shahab is simply rd didnt use his full music……
one word that define rafi shahab is “STALWART” in his feild….
Mr. XXX,
Most MD’s were “consistently perfect” with the Badshah Rafi-saab. This is probably where RD wanted to be different, which is why he went the KK way. Yet he also went the Rafi way, and many of his greatest hits and best songs are sung by Rafi. Rafi had a big role to play in the careers of many MD’s, including Pancham. It is a joke to compare any singer, including KK, to Rafi, as Rafi is miles ahead of any singer.
I was just listening to some 80’s Pancham songs from Jeeva, Love Story, Betaab and Saagar and was thinking had Rafi-saab been there, he would have raised the songs in these films to another level. Pancham changed his style in the 80’s, and introduced more electronic sounds to his music, while still retaining his trademark elements (feel, rhythm etc.). The Rafi-RD combo would have been lethal in the 80’s and we can see that from various albums released in the 80’s such as Abdullah, Zamane Ko Dikhana Hai, Bulandi, The Burning Train, Shaan, Jail Yatra, Kudrat, Aan Aur Shaan etc.
Contrary to popular view, Pancham really missed Rafi, and was desperately looking for a replacement (as was everyone else), which ofcourse he couldn’t find. The likes of Suresh Wadekar, SPB, Amit Kumar etc. all sang nicely for Pancham, but could not come anywhere near the Rafi magic.
What do you say ?
Mr. XXX,
I also think Pancham gave his very best to Nasir Husain. The team had a dream run from the 60’s to the 80’s. Also, TM, YKB and HKKN were three of Pancham’s top most selling albums. True, Pancham gave Gulzar excellent music too, it was classy and melodious, but I would rate his work with NH ahead. In Nasir Husain albums, you had class + mass + variety all rolled into one, and those songs are all evergreen and everlasting.
Pancham worked well with SS, Ramesh Behl as well as the Sippy’s, and I agree, Pancham didn’t give great music to all of his Dev films, S-J gave better music overall to Dev films, aside from Dada Burman.
From a lyrical point of view, Pancham had the most success with Majrooh and Anand Bakshi, they both have many great and solid albums with Pancham. Gulzar and Pancham didn’t work together as much as other Pancham-lyricist combo’s, but as you mentioned their success percentage was high.
reply 2 556…,,hussain saab,,I cant search out dat newspaper…But trust me dat RD had said dat…Y will i fool nebdy..Its a page where lots of very good comments are coming..,my comments r as genuine as nbdy..naushad had said d same thing abt rafi..He had told abt dilip kumar and rafi saab..Dilip kumar had taken three months doing riaz of sitar(4 d song madhuban me radhika) and he did it so much dat his fingers were badly bruised..In dat very session he told dat rafi used to do lots of riaz and only when he was satisfied on every front(sur,lai,taal,expression) he ued 2 record it…
..dats d reason we have amazing songs of rafi saab..and i dont see nethng wrong if someone is a perfectionist…
….Rafi did mnay songs in very few days also..One comes instantly 2 my mind is SUNO SUNO AYE DUNIYAWALO BAPU KI YE AMAR KAHANI..he recorded dat song in one go….
Mr Saudi Arab alias Cherian,
It is you who generalized malayalees in this forum not anybody else. If you sing kk or rafi songs doesn’t mean you are one of them! Music is universal and one doesn’t need to be a malayalee to enjoy it! And there is no way in hell you find exclusive collections of kk and Rafi in a Malu shop! Infact many of their songs are very rare to find and only way to find them is in forums and portals.
And yes rafi is a great singer but still RD chose KK because KK has something which does make him quite different than Rafi! Comparing Rafi and KK is wrong because they are different!
ref to p 652 of mr.myk,
pancham gave excellent music to gulzar and %age wise he is most successful with gulzar but i think pancham’s best came up with nasir hussain, i think so bcoz in that particular genre of gulzar-pancham(classy genre), we have much better songs from the maestros like naushad, roshan etc, but i think none of the album from the 70s can beat hkkn in its genre, what do you think?? tm from 60s was also trendsetting and unique album, so in my view tm and hkkn are pancham’s top two albums, both of these albums revived his career too, and rafi ji did more than justice with every single song from these albums .. his work with gulzar was melodious and soothing, his work with ramesh behel ans ss was nice too,but he disappointed with dev(with few exceptions),how much are you agree with me??
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mr. anil cherian,
none of the song from 70s can beat “barbaad-e-mohabbat” and “likhkar tera naam”(according to my personal view and taste), madan mohan was best md of early 70s, although he did very few movies but each and every song was gem or very much close to gem, and whenever he teamed up with kaifi, movie’s score became history… by the way you are right about mr.spb, he sung those two songs better than originals because of his immense classical knowledge…
For Mr.XXx:
Thanx a lot for ‘Pyar hai ik nishan….’. I never knew this was actually a RDB tune, I took it for a LP composition. Yes, it is a nice tune, but I will have to listen to it many times before deciding if it beats ‘likhkar tera naam…’, teri bindiya re….’, ‘jil mil sitaron ka…’, ‘barbad-e-mohabbat….’, ‘kahi ek masoom nazuk….’ or ‘dard-e-dil..’..
I watched the ‘tribute’ and yes SPB sir sang those songs exceedingly well and in my opinion he bettered the originals (in raag shivranjini). I have heard SPB sir singing several Rafi sahab songs (in his various concerts). Whenever he sings them, he begins with a preface ‘this is a song rendered by the legendry Rafi sahab. Let me make a try at singing it’.
Mr. XXX,
The reason why I didn’t include previous years in my list is because RD’s career really took off from 1966. You’re absolutely right, Chhote Nawab was an excellent debut album by Pancham, all the songs were great. Rafi-saab always launched newcomers in a great way, and Thanks to Rafi and Lata, Pancham received the perfect start to his career. For every composer, Rafi had a special and unique way of singing. As you mentioned, there is a very unique way in which he sang the Chhote Nawab songs, as well as all of Pancham’s songs.
The 1966-1970 phase was a very creative one for Pancham, he showed all kinds of versatility during this time, and each of his albums had wonderful songs. “Tauba yeh adayen” is a great song, trendy, catchy, and its the rendition (as you pointed out) which elevates the song. Rafi gives life and zest to this composition as he did to every song.
In 1965, Rafi saab sang “Meri jaan tu khafa” a good melodious song for Pancham in Teesra Kaun. The same year he created a milestone with Dada Burman in Guide, and he would do the same thing with Pancham a year later in Teesri Manzil.
I fully agree that Pancham was one of Rafi’s best latter-day composers. They have a lot of variety during this phase (as you mentioned). Pancham composed better songs for Rafi in this period than he did for Kishore. In general, whatever Pancham composed for Rafi was better than what he composed for Kishore. Rafi brought melody and magic to Pancham’s music.
Btw, there are five unreleased Rafi-Pancham songs, they are:
Humsafar Humko Tum Jaisa Hi Chhaiye – Hum Kisise Kum Nahin
Tasveer Liye Jaata Hoon – Sone Ki Lanka
Mil Jul Ke Gaate – Giraftaar
Main Kaun Tu Jadugar – Dushman Dost
Yeh Kankar Patthar – Waapsi
I hope one day we can lay our hands on these unreleased songs.
Now a question for you. Pancham gave excellent music to many people, but in your opinion who do you think he gave his best music to ?. Was it Nasir Husain, Ramesh Behl, Gulzar, Shakti Samantha, Dev Anand or others ?.
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Mr. Anil Cherian,
I guess one reason why songs that fit the bracket of “not getting enough attention at the time” or that were not as popular as others, is because the films may have failed and that affected the popularity of the songs. For example, Pancham did a lot of B-grade films, and composed wonderful songs for them, but a good number of these songs aren’t really well known or that popular, because the films sank without a trace.
Mr. Bristol:
Who compared Yesudas in Hindi to others in Hindi? Why are you trying to twist my post out of context? May be you should be doing well to go thru my post again. And who told you I don’t listen to Kishoreda? For ur information I’ve sung his songs in (small) music concerts complete with his ruf-n-tuf voice, hard hitting style and far-from-perfect Hindi diction.
There are infact a lot of Keralites (serious music lovers) who regularly listen to HFM. If you visit any music shop in Kerala you will find a lot of old HFM albums (esp. Rafi sahab’s and Lataji’s). Even the new-genners buy new HFM albums (I’m not sure whether they listen to them). My comments were based on the first category and not your typical Malayalee who is always after what’s in vogue.
Again for ur information I listen to a whole lot of songs and singers (Now I’m in the Middle east and have taken a liking for Arab songs too) and let me say there is none who can touch Rafi sahab.