Did R.D.Burman really preferred KK over Rafi?
This article is written by Mr.H.V.Guru Murthy.
A regular browser to web site mohdrafi.com, having gone through the letters of Rafi lovers would assume that R D Burman did not utilize Rafi properly, instead he preferred Kishore Kumar. Because of this reason, Rafi Fans are still upset with RDB even though he passed away a decade back.
Yes, it is true that RDB preferred KK over Rafi during early seventies. For that matter, which Music Director or Actor or Producer or Director will not have his preference. It was well known that Raj Kapoor always preferred Mukesh, Manoj Kumar preferred Mukesh or Mahendra Kapoor, B.R.Chopra films had Mahendra, MD Ravi also had plenty of songs with Mahendra so also O.P after he broke with Rafi. Similarly OP always had either Asha or Geetha Dutt and never Lata. Salil also used all other Singers. Director Subba Rao insisted on Mukesh for SAATHI even though the hero was Rajendra Kumar and MD Naushad, two Rafi Fans. Even Kalyanji Anandji had many films with Mahendra Kapoor, Mukesh and KK even though Rafi was instrumental in their raise through JAB JAB PHOOL KHILE, AAMNE SAAMNE, etc. LP, by all means Rafi Bhakts, used KK regularly in the early seventies even for Rafi heroes like Jeetendra, Dharmendra, etc. SJ also switched over to KK in movies like MAIN SUNDAR HOON, DIL DAULAT DUNIYA, KAL AAJ AUR KAL, etc. Of course, the music standard came down a notch or two in that period. But, well, it is their prerogative to have whomsoever they wanted though I am sure in heart of heart, why even openly, they would have admitted the superiority of Rafi over all other Singers. Similarly, RDB also used KK for almost all his movies in the early seventies as perhaps he had some special chemistry with him.
However, let us not forget that RDB used Rafi extensively during late sixties as his main playback singer right from the first movie. He gave hit music with Rafi in TEESRI MANZIL, NAQLI NAWAAB, CARAVAN, PYAAR KA MAUSAM, THE TRAIN, ABHILASHA, ADHIKAR, RATON KA RAAJA, etc. Later during late seventies he returned to Rafi and gave hits like SHAAN, HUM KISISE KUM NAHIN, ABDULLAH, ZAMANE KO DIKHANA HAI, etc. In between, he had Rafi in CHANDI SONA qawali with Mannadey (Ek Shok Hasina Se), YADON KI BAARAT (Title song and who can forget the duet with Asha Chura Liya Hai Tumne), DIL KA BAADSHAH (this Raj Kumar starrer had all songs by Rafi), THE GREAT GAMBLER (Raftasa Mera Naam), SHEHZADA (Solo Tere Attaroo and duet with Lata Kaahe Ko Bulaya), etc.
If a person cannot appreciate the greatness of Rafi, then it can be safely concluded that the person does not have a sense of music. Of course, RDB was a good MD though not a great MD like Naushad, Madan Mohan, OP Nayyar, SDB, etc. RD would have definitely known the great qualities of Rafi, the Singer. Just because he did not use Rafi extensively as one would expect, let us not degrade this MD who gave us some good songs in CHANDAN KA PALNA, PADOSAN, HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA, MERE JEEVAN SAATHI, AJNABEE, AMAR PREM, SANAM TERI KASAM, BHOOT BANGLA, BAHARON KE SAPNE (Rafi solo Zamane Ne Maare), PARICHAY, KINAARA, APNA DESH, ZAHREELA INSAAN, RAMPUR KA LAKSHAMAN (Pyaar Ka Samay with Lata, KK and Rafi), 1942 – A LOVE STORY, KATI PATANG to certain extent, etc. though he gave some very mediocre music in films like DEEWAR, SHOLAY, KITAAB, ZAKHMEE, RAFOO CHAKKAR, NAMKEEN, DHARAM KARAM and BIWI O BIWI (so un-RK film like), etc. so many forgettable movies as for as music was concerned.
The irony of RDB was either he gave good music or petered out to a very mediocre music in so many films. I read some where that Shashi Kapoor called RD as National Anthem Music Director. In those days, theatres used to play National Anthem at the end of the movie and the Hall doors used to be shut till the completion of the Anthem. As soon as the Anthem used to commence, our in-disciplined people used to rush to the Hall Door and wait for the door opening. Similarly, whenever RDB songs commenced in most of the movies, people used to rush to toilet.
Still, it is not fair that we use harsh and sometimes, un-parliamentary language against any body if they differ with our views. We cannot forget the contribution of all these MDs, Heroes, Singers, Directors, etc. in making the Indian Film Music so rich.
Mr. XXX,
Before I answer your queries (from your last post), I would like to know your views on something that I have been pondering over for quite a while.
Who in your opinion, was the better MD, Pancham, Salil or Illayaraja ?.
Have you heard of Ilayaraaja from the South ?. He is a genius MD, one of the best the South has eve rproduced. His forte was combining western classical music with indian music, just like Salil in HFM. Ofcourse Salil also composed for SI films, and IR has composed for HFM too, but both Salil and IR had a similar base. Whereas Salil used to use many indian instruments in his orchestration as well as western instruments, IR also blended electronics into his songs along with indian and western instruments. IR was a contemporary of Pancham in the 70’s and 80’s, and therefore is compared to him. IR is a real talent, he has invented raga’s and even composed his own symphonies.
The great Naushad-ji mentioned about IR that “What this man has achieved is 100 times more than what any of us have achieved; only time can tell the quantum of his achievementsâ€.
Having said this, regardless of the IR’s accomplishments or anyone’s accomplishments, in my view, Pancham was the most creative and the most talented MD out of all the three (Salil, IR, Pancham). What Pancham did with his music, compared to the three, was far ahead and full of creativity and variety. If you talk about WCM, something that Salil and IR were masters at, even Pancham experimented in this genre and used this genre to great effect. If you want a brief comparison between IR and Pancham (in my view), here it is:
Melody – Pancham wins hands down, IR is not as known for melody as opposed to orchestration. On the other hand Pancham was a very melodious composer.
Orchestration – Pancham again was one of the best orchestral MD’s ever, along with the likes of SJ, MM etc. IR specialized in this aspect, but many of his experiments and music tend to remind one of Pancham. Also, Pancham has done things IR has not done in his music.
Trendsetter – IR is not really known as a trendsetter, although he brought his own unique style to SI film music. Pancham is known as a trendsetter and also as someone who brought something new to HFM and indian music in general.
Instruments – Pancham in my view played around with his instruments better than IR. IR has many experiments with instruments, but it seems he picked this up from Pancham. Pancham used the guitar in phenomenal ways among his contemporaries, and IR also used this instrument in a great way, however I find Pancham’s use of this instrument more better.
Bass – Pancham leads here, he has made the best use of bass, and the bass guitar among all HFM composers (in my view), IR is not even close here.
WCM – IR is a master in western classical music just like Salil, but Pancham was excellent in this regard too. How about a song such as “Mera pyar shalimar”, something of the likes that IR has never created, the violins in that song can be used in a symphony as well as other songs. Pancham was strong in WCM as well even though it may not have been his forte. Just like SDB was strong in western music in general even though it may not have been his forte.
Genres – Pancham and IR have covered a lot of genres, but RD touched many outside unthinkable genres of music just like S-J. Also, RD has different elements in his music, catering to the youth, the class, the mass etc. whereas IR’s music doesn’t specifically cater to a target audience, but its great in its own way. Pancham has created types of songs that IR has never created, whereas IR’s music can remind one of Pancham. This is where Pancham leads and the rest follow.
Even though IR may be accomplished, Pancham is still a better MD than him (in my view). Pancham himself has many accomplishments to his credit as well. Anyways, accomplishments do matter when comparing MD’s, however its not the only yardstick. IR may have composed symphonies etc. but he was behind Pancham as an MD. If Pancham had wanted, he could have composed symphonies himself as well and the same goes for S-J and others.
I am not going to compare Salil to Pancham, as I feel Pancham was better. However I feel Salil was a notch up on IR too, even if IR may have experimented more. Ofcourse Salil experimented a lot too, but I feel even S-J, along with IR surprassed him in this aspect too.
So if I were to rank them, it would be:
Pancham
Salil
IR
I rank Pancham the highest because he was the most versatile, but even if IR was more versatile than Salil, I rate him below Salil. Why is that ?. Because versatility is just one measure of a great MD, and I feel Salil had qualities that IR doesn’t have, and Pancham has many qualities that make him the top MD in my view, besides being very creative and experimenting a lot.
What is interesting is that IR regards many MD’s in HFM as the best including SDB and Pancham, as well as Salil. He even played the guitar in Salil’s orchestra. You may have heard Sadma by IR and his song “Aye zindagi gale laga le” by Suresh Wadekar, a gem of a composition. Salil rated many MD’s as the best but he mentioned that Pancham was the only music pehnomenon that happened in the last 20 years of our film era. I have also read that IR used to use RD’s musicians when ever he came to Bombay to record songs.
Another aspect is that all MD’s had the highest regard for Rafi-saab, and thought he was the best. IR is of the view that Rafi is the greatest of all time. Salil thought Rafi was at the best (judging by one of his interviews), and we know Pancham also held Rafi-saab in the highest esteem.
Mr. XXX, Who in your opinion is the most talented of the three, and how would you rank them ?.
I’d probably place 4-5 Rafisahab songs in the top 20 of RDB… out of which 1-2 would be from the ’70s.
In RDB’s top 10, I might place 1 or 2 Rafisahab songs.
Hussein Sheikhji,
Can you oplease send the following songs.
1. Gum Ki Andheri Raat Me – Rafi & Talat – Sushila.
2. Jaane Bahar Husn – Rafi solo – Preet Na Jane Reet.
3. Dilne Pyaar Kiya Hai Ek Bewafase – Rafi solo – Shararat.
4. Dil Ka Suna Saanj – Rafi solo – Ek Naari Do Roop.
5. Tum Hi Tum Ho Mere Jeevan Me – Rafi & Lata – Ek Dil Sau Afsane.
6. Tum Husn Ki Mehafil Ho – Rafi & Asha – Saanj Aur Awaaz.
Both SJ (Brahmachari, Sangam) and Naushad (Andaz, Mere Mehaboob, Ram Aur Shyam) were greats in using Piano. Another was OP (Humsaya, Bahare Phir Bhi Aayengi). Even LP had a good number in Roop Tera Mastana and Roshan in Humraj. Some how, we have not seen others using Piano that much.
mr.myk,
ref to my previous entry, i meant to ask you that how would you compare the orchetration skills of s-j to their peers(chiefly salil who was brilliant in orchestration like s-j ) and to their successors(mainly l-p and pancham)…
ref to p 883::
mr.myk,
regarding use of violins, sax and accordion, s-j definitely ousted their peers. in fact there is hardly any composer who did so many experiments over accordion. so in this department s-j ruled.
now as far as violins are concerned most of the our veteran greats used violins quite effectively and distinctively, like naushad, he tagged as a purist but his experiments on violins are quite evident, however with due regards to all others, imho shankar-jaikishan, salil chowdhary and madan mohan had no peers in this department..
regarding tabla, both shankar and pancham were masters over it, during his early days shankar used to play tabla for prithvi theaters and pancham for his father during riaz, so their tabla gyaan was amazing and both of them used tabla vary well. however i must say here that s-j were quite ahead in this field too..
now for the rest of the percussion instruments-bongo, Congo etc, no doubt rd used them better but these type of instruments has hardly anything to do with melody so this feature of pancham’s orchestra takes nothing out of s-j’s. one more instrument that shankar used to play ver well was piano, and s-j used it very well in their songs.
mr.myk, could you please through some more light on s-j’s use of violins and accordions, two instruments that they used so well, and how would you compare them to others{their peers(chiefly salil) and successors}.
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ref to p 890::
mr.myk,
this may differ from person to person however i would definitely like to add atlest these 3 songs onto rd’s top 5 list
*vaadiya mera daaman
*diwana mujhsa nahi
*tumhe dekha hai gulsita mein…
other than these 3 my top 20 would constitute of at least 10 songs of lata bai. any 3 from kk too. mr.myk, which songs you would definitely include to rd’s top 5 list, i guess vaadiya mera daaman should be there in your list too as it is utterly melodious one with beautiful orchestration….
Personally I feel, RDB has given good songs to Rafi but not great ones as given by other MDs like Naushad, SDB, Madan Mohan, SJ, etc.
As I think as RD best 3 films are
1,TEESRI MANZIL,
2,CARAVAN
3,Shaan
best 10 songs as I think 8 of 10 singed by Mohd Rafi first 3 from TEESRI MANZIL as I think,also Rd did great job with KK but as I think LP and KA was greater than RD using KK as I think………
Ref Post 891:
This is a RDB-Rafi thread, therefore my post should be in this thread and not eleswhere. If you would like to post to rd/kk fanatics then please go ahead, but I know I won’t since I would like to know the answer from various Rafi fans in this forum.
Not all Rafi fans dislike RDB, and if you’re one who dislikes the great composer, then you don’t have to answer the question.
Everyone has the right to post interesting questions for discussion purposes.
ref mail 890,why post such question,post to all rd/kk fanatics,
please list rdb three best movies and you will get answer to your question.
Mr. XXX,
I have two questions for you:
a) Say you were to make a list of RDB’s Top 20 best all-time songs, how many Rafi songs would make it to that list ?.
b) Out of those 20 songs, would any Rafi song(s) make it to the Top 5 ?.
This is from an unbiased and objective standpoint, and not just your favourite songs. For example, a person may not like “Raina beeti jaaye” that much, but they may include it in the list because it is a quality composition, and deserves to be mentioned. Everyone will have their own lists, but I want this list to be objective, and not based on just favourites (ofcourse it can include favourites, but try and make it as unbiased as possible). Lists can also change everyday, however try and make this one include perennial songs.
This question is also for everyone else on this board, please do reply. I know Mr. XXX and myself are both big fans of the RDB-Rafi combo, but I want to get an idea of what others think, as in where does Rafi stand when it comes to making a Top 10 RDB list.
RD in his last film with Mohd Rafi he used Mohd Rafi more than KK.If am not worry LP with SJ only MD who gave hit songs without Mohd Rafi after them Ravi as I think.
RD start with Mohd Rafi and back to Mohd Rafi but God show RD that Mohd Rafi is gift and this gift not for RD.
1 SJ
2 LP
3 SD
4 Mandan Mohan
5 O P Nayyar
Naushand is not in my list because he is the father of Music world from him we started good music in 1950’s and the end was in 1980 with mohd Rafi that is true.If you ask any one who is KK or Rd fan they will say the same the end of good music was in 1980 and was started in 1950’s
Ref recents posts 884-885-886 – I concur with the views and admire the thought process of Anmol, myk & Guru murthy.
To me SJ & LP were complete MD’s( more than All rounders – perfect batsmen, bowlers and brilliant fielders and could adapt to 20-20, ODI or Test matches with equal ease). MM was pure class. OPN a wild card entry who could silance any critic with his rhytham and chicest lyrics. His biggest folly besides breaking off with saint like Rafi saheb was not to use Lataji, hence deprieving music lovers the magic of OPN-Lata duo. Naushad &SDB were very good quality MD’s. But my unsung heroes remain Chitragupt, Roshan(s) and Ravi.
Commercialy or otherwise SJ and LP should get the tag as most succesfull md’s with SJ slightly ahead in quality, but LP played a longer innings studded with defensive shots, 4’s and sixes and more importantly were never dropped during their carrier.
Post 884:
My MD-singer listing would be similar except some alterations. For Sailida, I’d say the order would be, Mukeshji, Talatsaab, Mannada, Rafisahab and for KA and LP it would be Rafisahab, Kishoreda, Mukeshji (taking an overall pespective including the music after the demise of Mukeshji and Rafisahab).
Post 885:
Agree with you. Several factors contributed to RDB’s downfall, one of them being the ‘tag’ that was attached to him by late ’70s/early ’80s; that of being a ‘western’ styled composer. S-J or L-P were never branded, actually they could not be branded because of their variety. Even RDB had the variety, but he preferred to stick to (what he thought) was his USP. And when Bappi (with a louder, so-called western-style) came into the scene, naturally RDB suffered but L-P didn’t.
Mr. Anmol Singh,
I fully agree with you, that LP provided great competition to S-J from the late sixties onwards. I feel the man who was a real threat to both LP and RD in the 70’s and 80’s was Rajesh Roshan. Bappi was a xerox copy of RD. One can say he was a threat to LP and RD in the 80’s (Bappi’s success really started then), because his disco style became very popular, but he could never match them. He was never in the same league as LP, RD, KA and RR.
Rajesh Roshan made a storm arrival in the 70’s, like a breath of fresh air, and shook up things with his music. He was a real quality composer with his own unique style. At the time of LP, RD, and KA ruling things, he provided the alternative.
I wish Jaikishan had been alive to witness all that happened after his demise, S-J would probably have still ruled as a team.
RDB was never a threat to SJ. Even after Jaikishan’s death in 1971 music was composed by Shankar along under the banner of SJ in the early 70s. But LP in the late sixties did give them competition, which forced SJ to alter their orchestra. Plus the use of Rafi by both was excellent, which acted as a weapon against each other.
This happens almost in every era with all music composers. Now coming to late 70s and early 80s Bappi Lahri was a threat for both LP and RDB. LP also altered their style of composition and music in the early 80s, keeping in mind that there was no Rafi this time to support them. Still LP manage to sustain in the entire 80s.
This was not the case with RDB. He also did alter his music composition with times, but it could not be identified as a separate identity in the 80s due Bhappi’s present. Most of his works got mixed up or overshadowed or diluted due to Bhappi Lahri’s music, which finally ended up in 23 flops. Of course this did affect KA, RR and other composers a well. Finally there were two category of film makers sub standard and quality. Quality film makers always opted for LP and sub standard ones opted for Bhappi. RDB was neither acceptable by both.
Finally in the late 80s the entry of Anand-Milind & Nadeem-Shravan backed by Gulshan Kumar completed over shadowed Bhappi’s sub standard work. Again LP were unaffected this time also. But RDB lost his only main loyalist Nazir Hussian to Anand Milind. The outcome was ‘QSQT’ launching Amir & Juhi, Anand Milind & Udit Narayan. Success of ‘Aashique’ brought Nadeem-Sharvan and Kumar Sanu on top. Bhappi and RDB were completely eliminated from the scene.
Perhaps the only person who showed faith in RDB was Vidu Vinod Chopra. RDB’s music in ‘Parindaa’ was good but not a big hit for him to make a come back.
IF ALL THE CORRESPONDENCES ARE GONE THROUGH AND BY OBSERVING THE INDIAN FILM MUSIC OF 40 TO 1980 AND THE QUANTITY / QUALITY OF SONGS OF VARIOUS MDs WITH DIFFERENT SINGERS, WE CAN BRACKET THE FAVOURITE SINGERS OF DIFFERENT MUSIC DIRECTORS AS UNDER (WITH FEMALE SINGERS IN BRACKETS) :
1. NAUSHAD – RAFI – 1ST, MUKESH – 2ND (LATA – 1ST, ASHA – 2ND)
2. SD BURMAN – RAFI / KK, HEMANT, TALAT (LATA, GEETHA, ASHA)
3. OP NAYYAR – RAFI, MAHENDRA (ASHA, GEETHA, SHAMSHAD)
4. SHANKAR JAIKISHAN – RAFI, MUKESH, MANNADEY (LATA, ASHA)
5. LAXMIKANTH PYAARELAL – RAFI, MUKESH, KK (LATA)
6. KALYANJI ANANDJI – RAFI / MUKESH, KK, MAHENDRA, MANNADEY (LATA)
7. RD BURMAN – KK / RAFI (ASHA, LATA)
8. HEMANTH KUMAR – HEMANTH (OBVIOUSLY) (LATA, ASHA)
9. SALIL CHAUDHURY – MUKESH, RAFI, MANNADEY (LATA)
10. RAVI – RAFI, MAHENDRA (LATA / ASHA)
11. ROSHAN – RAFI, MANNADEY (QAWALIS) (LATA)
12. MADAN MOHAN – RAFI, TALAT (LATA)
13. SONIK OMI – RAFI, MUKESH (LATA)
14. CHITRAGUPTA – RAFI (LATA)
15. KHAYYAM – RAFI / MUKESH (LATA)
16. C. RAMACHANDRA – CHITALKAR / HEMANT, MUKESH, RAFI (LATA)
IT IS OBVIOUS THAT FOR MOST OF THE MDs, THE FIRST CHOICE OF FEMALE SINGERS WAS LATA. MOST MDs ALSO USED RAFI SUBSTANTIALLY THOUGH SOME MDs LIKE SALIL, CR, ETC. HAD SOME PERSONAL RESERVATIONS. THE ABOVE LIST IS PURELY MY PERSONAL OPINION AND I AM SURE OPINIONS WILL VARY. FELLOW MUSIC LOVERS CAN COME OUT WITH THEIR OWN OPINIONS.
Mr. XXX,
That’s absolutely true, RD never posed any threat to S-J in the commercial market, however I wanted to know from you if he posed any threat to S-J in the “western genre”, and I agree, he definitely did not. S-J were always the leaders in every respect, they wrote the grammar, they revolutionized music and they set many trends.
Coming to your question, I feel both S-J and RD used guitars in a great way. No one in the 50’s and 60’s used guitars the way S-J did, they used it in the most stylish way, be it the stringed guitar or electric guitar. Even in the 70’s, you will see different experiments by S-J with this instrument. Here is a Mukesh song from a RK film in 1967. This is S-J working magic with the electric guitar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSy0UpTNdwA
RDB, like S-J also experimented a lot with the guitar, using it in many different ways. From the stringed guitar, Hawaiian guitar, electric guitar. Like S-J, out of his contemporaries, I feel no one probably used the guitar in as many different ways as RD did. Check out “Tere bina jiya jaaye na” (Ghar) where the guitar is being used as a rhythm accompaniment or “Chand mera dil” (HKKN), the chartbuster by Rafi-saab. I think RD may have experimented more with the stringed guitar, and S-J more with the electric guitar, though all three used the other guitar(s) in great ways.
One important aspect of both S-J’s and RD’s music was the use of bass. This is another feature of the guitar in both orchestra’s. Both used this instrument very effectively as bass. RDB is known for using bass quite a bit in his compositions, he even used it in his classical compositions, for eg. in “Is mod se jaate hain” (Aandhi) you can hear the tabla and the guitar together. S-J also used it efectively as well in their songs. These three trend-setting composers all paid attention to bass and gave it the importance it deserves.
Coming to my favourites from the “rocking” genre or “western” genre, there are many, here are a few:
S-J, Rafi and Shammi wooing the bengali beauty in foreign land, a wonderful song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt64ijB9ZRs
S-J took inspiration from Elvis’s “Margarita” for the opening lines, and created one of their most vintage hits: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN5lLXMYiYM
Here is a rocking song from S-J, Rafi-saab at his best: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jslFIhdgMhQ
An awesome classic from S-J in 1964, what a mindblowing composition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T64D0onQrVI
One from RD in 1969, Rafi and Lata are rocking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4D267zS59Y
This is L-P doing an S-J in London, a very beautiful song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWFeJXPOohM
I have two questions for you Mr. XXX:
1) Who’s orchestra in whole was better, S-J’s or RD’s ?. Which orchestra brought out more magic in their use of instruments, from the violins, guitar, saxophone, bongo’s, congo’s, accordion, tabla etc. ?.
2) When I listen to RR’s violins, it reminds me of S-J, the way they’re flashy, used in many unorthodox ways, and very stylish. In my view, Rajesh Roshan used violins better than RDB. How would you compare RR’s violins to S-J’s violins, do you see any common attributes, any differences ?.
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I agree with Mr. Cherian, S-J were not confined to anything, and they were never repetitive. Rafi-saab was the perfect medium through which they could experiment and explore various aspects of their music which is why their association is never dull or of the same nature, its always full of magic. Compare this with the RD-KK combo or other singer-MD associations, and there’s a vast difference.
Thanks everyone for informative posts, learned many things reading them. Coming to SJ-RDB comparison, let me say S-J never really overdid anything. Prima facie, it may be felt that they did over-utilise Rafi sahab, but infact Rafisahab was so flexible and innovative in their hands that there is no sign of monotony when it comes to this combo.
RDB on the other hand overdid a lot of things.. same beats, same style of orchestration, same voice, same many things….
MR. XXX,
RDB WAS VERY GOOD IN USING GUITAR, NAUSHAD (TU KAHE GAR, AE HUSN JARA & AAJAKI RAAT MERE) AND SJ WERE SUPERB WITH PIANO. LP HAD A PENCHANT FOR USING TABLA AND MADAN MOHAN FOR SITAR.
mr.myk,
all kudos to rafi sahab and those great lyricists who incorporated melody and sweetness to those rocking western tunes otherwise they would have been regarded as cacophony of the golden era, so all thanks to paragon of virtue, the most melodious- rafi.
this kind of rocking music was however always remained out of course for the great and divine mds {naushad, roshan,madan mohan}. but let us not being purist(which we are course not) and admit that two of the mavericks(earlier sj and later rd) took the challenge and churned out something different for us which had great melody and valuable lyrics as well thus made hfm so rich so kudos to s-j too for this initiative, but here i must admit that overall quality was suffered due to these songs.
regarding your earlier post i have to say that rd hardly posed any threat to
s-j, as far as commercial market is concerned s-j were ruling party having opposition of naushad,sd, roshan,ravi,l-p etc.. however pancham was “uttradhikari” of another big party and reaped benefits out of it. but in “rocking” genre there was some competition and as you mentioned that s-j gave fitting replies.
as a team member pancham did great job under dada, dada and his team jaidev,pancham, basu,manohari etc etc did wonders with rafi sahab in 60s, here goes one of such wonders::
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=JXRfyjKS-jg
few members from this team further teamed up and churned out trendsetting score in 1966 with rafi sahab, let us enjoy one from this movie too::
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=zwN9Mgq0aSc
and here is my fav from the rock ‘n’ roll genre:
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=qHaqhXekAh0
mr.myk, which one is yours fav from this genre? and who do you think used guitars(of all types) better? s-j or rd?
Post 877 of myk.
SJ could well be the best MD’s of all times. They figure in top 3 of every great like Lata or OPN. How can anyone try comparing RDB with greats like SJ. RDB can not even be compared to LP. RDB falls in KA/ Bhappie Lahiri category of B+. SJ, MM, OPN, Naushad,SDB are A+, LP, Ravi, Chitragupt are just short of A+ to me.
I am not talking about Roshans or Khayyams or C Ramachandrans. They also need ,more recognition than mr RDB.
In those days, apart from RDB and SJ, C. Ramachandra (Roota Na Karo, Albela) and LP (Night In London), were also adept at such Western tunes and how can we forget Usha Khanna (Aao Pyaar Karen). In sixties the craze for such music was so high that even Naushad had to come out with Leader, Ganwar and Saathi. OPN also gave some films in his own inimitable way. Of course, RDB had Teesri Manzil and SJ An Evening In Paris, Gumnaam, etc.
Mr. XXX,
We discussed how RR was a threat to RDB in the western genre, but I also feel S-J were a threat to RDB in this genre as well. Had Jai lived, who knows what the S-J team would have done in the western genre. S-J always composed in this genre as well as fusion music (east and west) throughout their career, but from 1965-71 they experimented more with the western genre. S-J were the leaders even during Teesri Manzil, and look how they responded, with An Evening In Paris.
You could look at it the other way, that RD provided competition to S-J in the western genre, and you could say he was a threat as well.
What are your views on this ?.
Dear Mr. Hussain,
Ref. post 865, I have requested to Mr. Parvez for these songs but could not receive yet. So, May I request you to kindly send these gems of Rafi sahab.
Thank you very much for your usual support.
It is heartening that even after 28 years, Rafiji’s fans are actively discussing his contribution to the Indian Film Music. The topic seems to be inexhaustive. Perhaps, a panel discussion can be arranged to discuss the various facets of Rafiji’s contribution. We can also invite some top Mds, Actors, etc. for the discussions to get their expert view point as well as some of their experiences with Rafi, the person.
My dear friends !
Today is 31st July…an inauspicious day for all the music lovers.
Today, in 1980, we lost our beloved singer Padmashree Mohammad
Rafi Sahab. He was not less than an angel.
Let us remember him on this day and pray for his divine soul !
May God bless his soul eternal peace in the heaven !!!
Thanks.
-Raajkumar Akela
ज़मी से फलक तक सà¤à¥€ आà¤à¤– नम है
सà¤à¥€ के दिलों मे बसा à¤à¤• गम है
कहाठखो गया वो सà¥à¤°à¥‹à¤‚ का सिकंदर
बिना जिसके संगीत का सूर à¤à¤• कम है
-राजकà¥à¤®à¤¾à¤° “अकेला”
On the other hand, Salil would definitely make it to my Top 10 for Lata any day. The list I gave was in no particular order, just the names that would be at the top of the list for me when talking about Lata’s best five MD’s.
Mr XXX,
No doubt Salil was a great music director for Lata, and he made immortals for her, but when I said “over-rated” I meant that their association in my view is not as great as others. In other words, its hyped up a little too much. I can think of many beauties by LP and RDB for Lata that surprass her Salil songs. Here is my top 5 for Lata (in no particular order):
1. Madan Mohan
2. Shankar Jaikishan
3. SDB
4. Laxmikant Pyarelal / Hemant Kumar
5. RDB / Naushad / Roshan
From this list, LP and RD are the only next generation MD’s that make it to the list. L-P scored 600+ runs with Lata, with many excellent cover drives, cut shots, pulls, fine glances, hooks, many outstanding fours and a countless number of huge sixes. RD on the other hand had a great triple century innings with her with similar type shots as L-P.
Good News for Mohd Rafi Fans
Mr. Farrukh doing great job at http://www.radio4fm.com/# and click on Listen Live there will be programs on Mohd Rafi from 267\2008 till 31/07/2008 from10 pm to 1 am Dubai time and in India time 11 30 pm to 2 30 am……from 2678 to 307\2008 from 10 pm to 11pm and on 317\2008 from from 10 to 1 am.
He is doing great job from few years, I hope people in media will be honest as he is as I think. also you can send sms msg at 0097504625891 from 10 pm to 1 am UAE(Dubai time)
Thanks a lot Mr.Farrukh for this great job
Dear Binu Sir,
First of all thank you very much for the response of my mail. Secondly, as all Rafi bhakts interested to know everything about the Farishta, I also asked this question with no bad intention. If my question sound something bad, I am really sorry for that.
Imtiyaz A. Sharif
Dear Rafifan,
Thank you for your kind words. Your points are valid. But I was looking at it from a slightly different angle. Because of the sensitivities of the people who visit this forum, I will calibrate my response, but suffice it to say that with salil, lata was unbeatable just as rafi was unbeatable with op. I don’t want to be drawn into making a comparison between these two md’s since I love them both. They had contrasting styles but when they composed at their best for their respective no. 1 singer, it was just great music. Incidentally, I played two of lata’s solos from parakh last night; no, not the one people usually go gaga about, but “mila hai kisika jhumka” and “yeh bansi kyun gaaye”. As a tunesmith, I rank salil much higher than anil b., though I wouldn’t deny anil’s pioneering work for hfm.
post 866… imtiaz ji….
what others earn are matters personal and not fit to debate on an international website. however, since you are an ardent rafi fan let me tell you that rafi saaheb used to charge rupee one for a song from a broke producer/composer or rs.15000 from another.
you may write to me too since i may pass on info that i may have to any rafi lover.
binu nair .. mumbai….
ravi sharma easily ranks among the “top five” music directors who were associated with the king of playback singing rafi saaheb. some 250 gems from this composer. most of them pearls of the ocean.
and for this reason ravi saaheb is honoured by various rafi clubs in many centres, even today – after more than 40 years of creating the tunes.
truly great.
binu nair. mumbai.
Can somebody tell me, how much Rafi Sahab was charging for a song in his peak period? i.e. late 70s. I mean, what was his normal rate per song.
Regards,
Imtiyaz A. Sharif
Dear Mr. Parvez,
I will be verymuch thankful if you could send me following Rafi sahab’s Gems:
1) kahaniya sunati hey pawan aati jati.
2) mere desh premiyo aapas main prem karo.
3) har jalwa tera jalwa teri yeh duniya sari.
My ID: jmmakers@yahoo.com
Regards,
Imtiyaz A. Sharif
Ravi composition was better than RDB.
rafi lovers : how many of you have read raju bharatan’s book on Lata Mangeshkar? Pls. read it….
this book is almost a history of the facts which happened in and out of the recording studios. it’s a must read for any serious commentator on music which we are seeing it in this thread.
its a well known fact that she boycotted raju bharatan post publication of the book. also read the book written by Vishwas Nerurkar on Lata didi where in he has recorded the “fact” that she has not sung more than 5000 songs in her whole career and even less. it is said that she has also boycotted this writer.
binu nair.. mumbai….
Haldar sir,
Could you elaborate the statement ‘And salil was to lata what op was to rafi — the differentiating factor between the the two titans’. Can it be inferred that Salil’s over-dependance on Lataji made him a lesser composer than OP (who relied heavily on Rafi sahab)?
Dhani ram Sir,
Exactly. Jayadev was a true genius, so was Khayyam.. but none cares to mention their names when speaking about ‘greats’. And what about Ravi? I personally don’t believe that ‘the much-hyped trend-setting MD’ is nowhere near him in terms of sheer class and consistency.
mr.haldar,
how about considering anil biswas over khayyam? he blessed lata with many of her career best solos and duets, he was pivotal in rise of many great singers(talat, mukesh,lata,manna,kishore), imo his only drawback was his bias against ustaado ka ustaad mohd rafi for which he paid heavily, he was complete failure in 60s…
however most surprising thing is two of the ardent rafi lovers naushad sahab and op nayyar were huge admirers of anil biswas,naushad considerd rc boral(his contribution to new theaters of calcutta), pankaj mullick(for harmonisation) and his bombay counterpart anil biswas as gurus of film music and in one of his “Jaimala gold” progaram with “fauji bhai log” op nayyar paid highest regards for anil biswas…
by the way here is an old saregama clip where op nayyar bent down to have the blessings of anil biswas::
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0pKb3VDVJlA
sanjay sahib
The song is:jyoti kalash chhalke written by bharat vyas and composed by sudhir phadke.can you think of any rd composition which reaches such ethereal heights.
In an article in the indian express yesterday singer-composer shankar mahadevan wrote that the best ever music was composed by jayadev for deva nand starrer hum dono.He especially mentions rafi’s kabhi khud pe kabhi halat pe rona aaya and main zindagi ka saath nibhata chala gayaa and rafi-asha duet abhi na jayo chhod kar ki dil abhi bhara naheen.
Now preferences may differ but mahadevan is absolutely right that the above mentioned songs are some of the finest ever composed and sung.there is nothing comparable in rd repertoire and yet jayadev never got the recognition and adulation that rd did.this is how mediocrity scores over excellence in popular imagination.
Dear Haldar-ji:
I find your posts extremely well written, informative, thought provoking, and entertaining. I generally agree with you 100% as you are a far greater Rafi fan than I can expect to be. However, in your last post (858) I found something that I will like to comment on – not disagree. You wrote:
“Salil was to Lata what op was to Rafi — the differentiating factor between the two titansâ€
This is mostly true. In fact, it is a good analogy but there are a few minor points to consider as well.
• Whereas OP refused to use Lata for any of his compositions, Salil did use Rafi in several of his to embellish his music.
• Comparison of OP with Anil Biswas will be more appropriate as both the composers did not have much respect for the respective singers. OP telling that he can create good music without Lata and AB saying about Rafi that “He is not a singer†or “He is not my kind of singer†(whichever version you subscribe to).
• The musical talent of Salil and OP are also not at par.
Incidentally, I attended a musical concert by Salil in Bombay in ’70 where he conducted most of his famous songs with unknown artists. Nitin Mukesh sang “suhana safar†and another singer presented “toote huey khwabon neâ€. It was an extremely enjoyable concert till the end when Salil hurled some unkind words towards one of the singers and the organizers.
ref post 854:
xxx, selecting lata’s top 5 mds may be even more difficult than rafi’s top 5. I agree with guru murthy ji that you’ll have to consider both naushad and hemant, as well as sajjad. And never forget khayyam. My personal favourite lata md’s are madan mohan, sd, sj, salil, naushad, cr, roshan, hemant kumar and khayyam (not in any particular order). Among the younger md’s, there is one who might just sneak into the top ten list.
If you compare this list with rafi’s top md list, you’ll find that mm, sd, sj, naushad and roshan were equally inclined towards the two singers, though you can always make the case that someone was a little more inclined towards lata or rafi. Just as ravi was much more inclined towards rafi, you can say that cr and hemant were also much more inclined towards lata. And salil was to lata what op was to rafi — the differentiating factor between the the two titans.
mr.myk,
you have mentioned some of the great songs by lata-lp but still i think it would be in fact more injustice if we opt out cr and salil from lata’s top 5, their magic was something different, divine and more prominent as well..
here is my ranking::
1.madan mohan
2.c ramchandra/salil
3.sd burman
4.shankar-jaikishan
5.naushad/anil biswas/roshan ….
by the way, which songs do you think by salil-lata were overrated? i believe from “do bigha zameen” to “chhoti si baat” their association was par excellence. and how about cr from 50s? just listen to the quality of this combo, madan mohan was highly inclined towards rafi sahab and lata, and he did wonders with them and for me he is no.1 for lata(this is a highly objective view though). how much do you differ with my list? waiting for your list….
mr. h v gurumurthy,
forgot to add naushad as his output with rafi sahab was so much superior that his combination with others hardly comes into my mind,rafi-naushad was imo best singer-md combo ever happened in hfm and truly made for each other, but no doubt his output with lata was gold as well..
regarding hemant- his quality output is comparatively very less than others like sajjad so its hard to place him among lata’s best however the movies that you have mentioned in your earlier post were all musically great..
Mr. XXX,
You brought up a very interesting point about who should be in Lata’s Top 5. I fully believe L-P should be there. There is so much variety and so many classics in their association that it would be a true injustice to leave them out. As good as Salil’s songs are for her, he wouldn’t make it to my Top 5 for Lata. Also, there are many Salil-Lata songs that are over-rated in my view, L-P have many more better songs for Lata than Salil. Even CR and AB would not make it to my Top 5 for Lata, those associations are all great, but again L-P have the edge.
L-P also made her sing in a different way (similar to what S-J did before), one example being cabaret songs, something which Lata earlier refused to sing because she found them vulgar. LP/Lata songs have this sweetness, melody and class which make them stand out. They challenged her vocals and made amazing and maximum use of her voice.
Just off the top of my head I can list some classics:
Nigahen kyun bhatakti – Baharon Ki Manzil
Bahut Din Beete – Sant Gyaneshwar
Chalo sajna jahan tak – MHMD
Geet tere saaz ka – Intaqam
Aaj Dil Pe Koi – Milan
Suno Sajna – ADBK
Abhi kya sunoge – Satyakam
Doori na rahe koi – Kartavya
Jeevan dor tumhi sang – Sati Savitri
Raat se kaho – Lootera
Koi nahin hai – Patthar Ke Sanam
Mr. XXX, my question to you is, who would be your Top 5 MD’s for Lata ?. I will name mine after your response.
Mr XXX, Post no. 850. How come you missed Naushad and especially Hemant Kumar. Lata’s songs in Baiju Bawra, Shabab and Anupama, Khamoshi, Nagin, Bees Saal Baad, Kohra were all top class. My personal 5 choices for Lata would be Hemant, SDB, SJ, CR and of course Madan Mohan.
mr.myk,
l-p’s association with mukesh was great, limited number of songs but almost every song was great .. and they formed successful pair with kk as well. lp-kk songs were commercially always proved themselves successful but quality wise they were not that much great(barring all their songs from 1963-73).
but my question is, are you sure l-p should be there in top 5 for lata?
i mean (madan mohan, salil, sd, c ramchandra,s-j,anil biswas,roshan) any 5 from this bracket would easily qualify for lata’s top 5.. first 3 being mandatory, what do you say?.
mr dhaniram ,refer mail 840,is it `Jaane meri ankhiyon ne dekha hai` from
`Pyaar ki jeet`
A while back Mr. Anmol Singh wrote about the LP-KK association and how it was different from KK’s associations with other MD’s such as RDB, SDB, KA and RR.
Mr. XXX, what is your take on the LP-KK association, as well as the LP-Mukesh association (which I mentioned in my previous post) ?.
Hi Mr. XXX,
I agree with you, L-P definitely topped the latter years of the 60’s among their contemporaries, but I also feel they did as well in the 70’s too. True, there are LP songs in the 70’s that had repetitive arrangements, but this can be found in the works of many others too including the two major contemporaries of L-P, which were RD and KA. In my view, L-P’s class shone for a very long time and they were able to overcome and compete with, at the same time re-inventing themselves against the competition, the first major form being the legendary MD’s that came before them with S-J leading that pack, followed by RDB and then later Rajesh Roshan and Bappi Lahiri etc. There are many LP albums that have a flavour not found in the works of others.
I agree, the Lata-LP combo was outstanding, I feel among their contemporaries LP produced the best songs for her. I would rate L-P among Lata’s top 5 MD’s of all time without a doubt (just like I would put them in the Top 5 for Rafi as well), the variety and melody they produced together was in a different league. Listen to the song “koi nahin hai” from ‘Patthar Ke Sanam’, one among their countless gems, it is such a beautiful and trend-setting song.
How about L-P’s association with Mukesh, which was also great, they produced many winners together ?.
I believe “Awaaz deke” was composed by Jaikishan, it is an out of this world song as you mentioned. You are correct, the 70’s was musically great but not the golden era as the previous years gone by.