Did R.D.Burman really preferred KK over Rafi?
This article is written by Mr.H.V.Guru Murthy.
A regular browser to web site mohdrafi.com, having gone through the letters of Rafi lovers would assume that R D Burman did not utilize Rafi properly, instead he preferred Kishore Kumar. Because of this reason, Rafi Fans are still upset with RDB even though he passed away a decade back.
Yes, it is true that RDB preferred KK over Rafi during early seventies. For that matter, which Music Director or Actor or Producer or Director will not have his preference. It was well known that Raj Kapoor always preferred Mukesh, Manoj Kumar preferred Mukesh or Mahendra Kapoor, B.R.Chopra films had Mahendra, MD Ravi also had plenty of songs with Mahendra so also O.P after he broke with Rafi. Similarly OP always had either Asha or Geetha Dutt and never Lata. Salil also used all other Singers. Director Subba Rao insisted on Mukesh for SAATHI even though the hero was Rajendra Kumar and MD Naushad, two Rafi Fans. Even Kalyanji Anandji had many films with Mahendra Kapoor, Mukesh and KK even though Rafi was instrumental in their raise through JAB JAB PHOOL KHILE, AAMNE SAAMNE, etc. LP, by all means Rafi Bhakts, used KK regularly in the early seventies even for Rafi heroes like Jeetendra, Dharmendra, etc. SJ also switched over to KK in movies like MAIN SUNDAR HOON, DIL DAULAT DUNIYA, KAL AAJ AUR KAL, etc. Of course, the music standard came down a notch or two in that period. But, well, it is their prerogative to have whomsoever they wanted though I am sure in heart of heart, why even openly, they would have admitted the superiority of Rafi over all other Singers. Similarly, RDB also used KK for almost all his movies in the early seventies as perhaps he had some special chemistry with him.
However, let us not forget that RDB used Rafi extensively during late sixties as his main playback singer right from the first movie. He gave hit music with Rafi in TEESRI MANZIL, NAQLI NAWAAB, CARAVAN, PYAAR KA MAUSAM, THE TRAIN, ABHILASHA, ADHIKAR, RATON KA RAAJA, etc. Later during late seventies he returned to Rafi and gave hits like SHAAN, HUM KISISE KUM NAHIN, ABDULLAH, ZAMANE KO DIKHANA HAI, etc. In between, he had Rafi in CHANDI SONA qawali with Mannadey (Ek Shok Hasina Se), YADON KI BAARAT (Title song and who can forget the duet with Asha Chura Liya Hai Tumne), DIL KA BAADSHAH (this Raj Kumar starrer had all songs by Rafi), THE GREAT GAMBLER (Raftasa Mera Naam), SHEHZADA (Solo Tere Attaroo and duet with Lata Kaahe Ko Bulaya), etc.
If a person cannot appreciate the greatness of Rafi, then it can be safely concluded that the person does not have a sense of music. Of course, RDB was a good MD though not a great MD like Naushad, Madan Mohan, OP Nayyar, SDB, etc. RD would have definitely known the great qualities of Rafi, the Singer. Just because he did not use Rafi extensively as one would expect, let us not degrade this MD who gave us some good songs in CHANDAN KA PALNA, PADOSAN, HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA, MERE JEEVAN SAATHI, AJNABEE, AMAR PREM, SANAM TERI KASAM, BHOOT BANGLA, BAHARON KE SAPNE (Rafi solo Zamane Ne Maare), PARICHAY, KINAARA, APNA DESH, ZAHREELA INSAAN, RAMPUR KA LAKSHAMAN (Pyaar Ka Samay with Lata, KK and Rafi), 1942 – A LOVE STORY, KATI PATANG to certain extent, etc. though he gave some very mediocre music in films like DEEWAR, SHOLAY, KITAAB, ZAKHMEE, RAFOO CHAKKAR, NAMKEEN, DHARAM KARAM and BIWI O BIWI (so un-RK film like), etc. so many forgettable movies as for as music was concerned.
The irony of RDB was either he gave good music or petered out to a very mediocre music in so many films. I read some where that Shashi Kapoor called RD as National Anthem Music Director. In those days, theatres used to play National Anthem at the end of the movie and the Hall doors used to be shut till the completion of the Anthem. As soon as the Anthem used to commence, our in-disciplined people used to rush to the Hall Door and wait for the door opening. Similarly, whenever RDB songs commenced in most of the movies, people used to rush to toilet.
Still, it is not fair that we use harsh and sometimes, un-parliamentary language against any body if they differ with our views. We cannot forget the contribution of all these MDs, Heroes, Singers, Directors, etc. in making the Indian Film Music so rich.
Janaab Dr.Khaja saheb:
This particular Anil is not me. Do you think I am ‘capable’ of such a post? I’m pretty certain that he is the same Anil something (I can’t recall the surname, now) who used to post here some months back, the ‘style’ is the same.
Dear kishorefan,
we mohd Rafi fans are not able to right our view on KK site !!!!!!!!!!but we mohd Rafi fans welcome you to mohd Rafi site,Please listen to mohd rafi songs before you write about mohd Rafi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRBbH2r1Mc8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm4TeD4M81g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ7LViBFb34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_Y56PfNZIU
Tune Mujhe Bulaya Sherawaliye” from movie Aasha (1980) – devotional bhent sang by Narendra Chanchal & Mohammed Rafi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxJ59lXxfoY
from the 1977 film Charandas. Amitabh & Dharmendra do a guest appearance. Yesudas is the playback singer for Amitabh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biDyWdTwVUM&feature=related
Dear kishorefan,
who are you and who are me to spoke or compare Mohd rafi with KK,jest put your view with yourself sir,media made kishore popular but because of Kishore was better singer than Mannay day or Mukesk only because he never spoke about mohd rafi greatness in media as done by both Mukesh and mannay day..also RD and two sister they was on Kishore side…Please listen to Mohd Rafi songs in 1970 and please give me ten KK films in which music became hit because of film music not film made music hit..Give me one actor name who became hit because of KK songs
I don’t think that “aradhana” be on the list of SD Burman 10 best films as music director
All card in our hand please don’t try to play with us
Sir A Raj ..
It was not said by me but it was said by L from LP who is one of the best Music director in Bollywood.
I don’t think that after kishore kumar kumar sanu took over but all agree that the best music was in 1960’s when mohd rafi sang most of songs..
All agree tthat music born in late 1940’s was child in 1950’s young was in 1960’s,old in 1970’s and died in 1980….WHY!!!!!!?
there was Mohd Rafi clone in 1960’s M Kapoor in 1970’s Anwer .1980 shabbir Kummar in 1990 mohd Aziz and now sonu but still we are missing Mohd Rafi and KK
Mr. unknow
What are you saying. When rafi passed away in 1980, people thought who would sing. What a riduculous question. Did singing stop or hindi film world came to an end. You note that from aradhana time onwards the wave factor had changed and it did not make much difference to the hindi films after 1980. Even after kishore kumar, kumar sanu took over. There was no lapse or emptiness in hindi film world after 1980.
MYJ ji
Rafi had a melodious voice and in a way it was soft melody. His voice did not possess that majestic melody which encompasses majestic sharpness combined with softness which is more appealing actually and which actually is termed as divine in my view. And many compositions during 50’s and 60’s were composed to suit mainly rafi’s voice and to suit that soft touches and accordingly many of the songs became hits as they were composed suiting his voice. Many and large number of songs of rafi are slow type songs, barrring few of different other genres which many rafi fans quote while comparison (such only few numbers) If you do not agree with me, and continue saying rafi is everything in music or whatever it may be, then there is no point for discussion at all. You may keep your views with you only, and certainly I personally think that all people have no necessity to agree with you. No disrespect to your views, but I have written my personal views. On the other hand, kishore had that majestic display of voice though he lacked that soft touch to the extent which rafi had. The compositions in 70’s were suited much to kishore voice and naturally they paved way for kishore’s rise as a singer in a overall way. It is true rafi ruled h f m in 50’s & 60’s but it was kishore who displayed a full and clear edge from 70’s and in many cases you will note that rafi though was there, was in the role of a second fiddle. (My respects for great rafi and his earlier rule, but it is the time factor which made kishore popular) Saigal had a nasal melody and classical talent and nothing beyond that, Mukesh too had soft touch, but not majestic sharpness again, manna dey too lacking in both. Since you were specifically laying focus on voice factor, though irrelevant for discussion here, as noticed in the other true voice forum, from the southern singers, I have personally noticed that ghantasala’s voice did possess both softness and majestic sharpness factor as well as versatile talent. Yesudas too had soft touch but not majestic again. Fine, as the discussion is only with reference to h f m, i shall restrict myself to that. What I want to convey is that it is true that rafi’s contribution was great in a particular time, to quote again and again that particular time and to show kishore in poor light in his own time, when he was ruling similar to rafi earlier, certainly cannot be accepted. With due respects to rafi, kishore stands kishore. In one recent rediff forums it has been debated and concluded that in bollywood kishore is the greatest playback singer.
Post 1136 – Dearest Aniljee
You have referred to my post 1072 which was published in this beautiful site on 31st January 2009 for which I thank you profusely.
Kishore Kumar Saab was undoubtedly a very good singer and was always in good terms with our beloved Rafi Saab and both were indeed great friends.
When they both did not have any qualms & quarrels amongst themselves why unnecessarily we should fight in this beautiful site.
Please take a break Aniljee mainly since good things & good deeds always remain everlastingly.
This is my personal opinion & advise to all the fans & admirers of both the legends – believe in ample of patience and love & enjoy the simple art of music irrespective of whether it is Kishore Saab OR Rafi Saab and see for yourselves that indeed ones life will change for better and better tomorrow
Adding a bit more, I also see repetitive posts from other esteemed members when replying these intruders. Again, its not a bad thing, it just relates back to my point about “the comments posted by those intruders are repetitive, so that automatically results in repetitive answers”.
Also along with that, we have also enlightened all these intruders with many other interesting points, comments, replies, answers etc. but they don’t seem to listen (and get it) and keep on coming back and writing their humbug again and again. Oh well, as I mentioned, the best thing to do is to ignore it, as it is all crap anyways.
Ok, here is another gem. We go back to the year 1965 where the RD-Rafi combo was in its early years and the “big bang” was yet to happen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfkbQ91qf24
This thread lost its direction a long time ago. Now all it is, is a place where nonsense is being churned out.
What is interesting is that there have been over 1100 posts and counting.
Sometimes when I reply to these intruders, I find myself repeating some things. This is because the comments posted by those intruders are repetitive, so that automatically results in repetitive answers. I guess some intruders will never learn.
Rafi fans don’t need to prove anything, we and the rest of the world knows that Rafi is the best and has no equal. Therefore its just best to ignore anyone who comes into this site and spews around nonsense.
How about re-visiting some RDB-Rafi gems 🙂
Here is one from 1978, best RDB duet of the year (imo):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1HX5tW37Vk
There is a bit of SD influence in this song with the vintage RD stamp.
Anilji,
Surprised to read your comments. I agree the songs you have listed of LP-KK combo are all good songs, but can they match the follwoing LP-Rafi or LP-Lata combo.
1. Main Ek Raja Hun – Uphaar.
2. Darde Dil – Karz.
3. Chahunga Main Tuzhe – Dosti.
4. Baar Baar Din Ye Aaye – Farz.
5. Aane Se Uske – Jeene Ki Raah.
6. Ye Jo Chilman Hai – Mehboob Ki Mehendi.
7. Hui Sham Unka – Mere Humdam Mere Dost.
8. Bahosho Hawaz Me Deewana – Night in London.
9. Shirdiwale – Amar Akbar Antony.
10. Na Tu Zamin Ke Liye – Dastaan.
Deliberately I am not choosing duets.
1. Kanha Kanha – Shagird.
2. Jaane Kyon Log Mohabbat – Mehboob Ki Mehendi.
3. Chalo Sajana – Mere Humdum Mere Dost.
4. Koi Nahin Hai – Pathar Ke Sanam.
5. Hai Hai Ye Majboori – Roti Kapda Aur Makaan.
6. Aap Muzhe – Jeene Ki Raah.
7. Satyam Shivam Sundaram – Title song.
8. Ankhiyon Ko Rehne De – Bobby.
9. Bhor Bahe Panghat Pe – Satyam Shivam Sundaram.
10. Roko Paal Man Ko – Abhinetri.
Though it is my personal opinion that though LP gave lot of good songs to Rafi and Lata, still the quality of songs Rafi and Lata sang for Naushad, MM, SJ, OPN (not Lata), SDB, Roshan, Chitragupt, etc. are much higher. In fact, KK was used by SDB and RDB better than any other Music Directors including LP.
Post#1136.
Janab Anil Saheb, I hope this anil is not our Anil Cherian Saheb. I totally support Mr. Myk and Mr.Unknown. Janab Sandeep Nadkarni is respected and elderly personality in our forum. He deserve respect not disrespect. I think , Anil Saheb, you should apologise to our “Buzarg”, Janab Sandeep Nadkarni Saheb.
With regards to all Rafi lovers,
Long live rafi sahab,
Dr. Khaja Aliuddin
Anil,
Mr. Nadkarni is a respected artist, as well as an esteemed member of this forum. Whatever he mentions has definite credibility and truth to it.
There is no way Dada Burman wanted Pancham to only use Kishore. That is as hilarious as saying Pancham composed many of SD’s heavyweight songs. KK and the Burmans shared a close relationship, but SD was always of the view that Rafi was the best singer of all time. RD even rated and respected Rafi-saab very highly even though KK was a favourite. SD’s chemistry with Rafi was far ahead of that with Kishore. Compare the best of SD-Rafi to that of SD-KK and you will find your answer. SD-KK falls flat on its shoes as they have no songs even near to the likes of Guide, Pyaasa, TGKS, Kala Bazar etc.
The question of who was the best singer should never be posed anyways. Rafi is beyond the likes of KK and everyone else. It’s only his (KK) fans (such as yourself) who are low on confidence and self-esteem etc. that make such remarks, and also come to the Rafi site and pollute it with the same old garbage over and over again.
Saying LP-KK is better than LP-Rafi or LP-Lata is truly the “joke of the day”. In that case, Bappi-Rafi is better than Bappi-Kishore and Bappi-Lata. There is no way LP’s songs with KK surprass that of Lata and Rafi with the duo. LP’s best songs went to Lata and Rafi and that is a fact. Kishore used to complain to LP that they never gave him their best songs, and their repertoire with KK is proof of that as well. Regardless of if LP found it tough or not, their best was always reserved for the King and Queen of singing. Those LP-KK songs you mentioned don’t hold a candle to Lata, Rafi and even Mukesh songs for LP. On the other hand, RD’s best was divided between KK and Rafi, but the songs Rafi sang for RD were beyond KK or any other singer.
Don’t talk about “divinity” when it comes to KK and Rafi. Rafi had the most divine voice, talent, set of skills etc. ever. KK and others were absolutely no match to Rafi in this and many other aspects. You talk about mood capturing as well, Rafi was the best at that too, there is no mood he did not cover and grasp with amazing ease and excellence. The other KK songs you mentioned (apart from the KK-LP songs) are gems, but when compared to Rafi songs (in a similar genre or in general) they fall flat.
You posted comments on this site a while back. I’ve noticed because they’re of a similar nature and contain similar examples.
Sir Anil…
I don’t want to say anything about KK because KK himself a Mohd Rafi fan
I think you are wrong to say that LP best songs was sang by KK If am not wrong you can use Lata Ji name before mohd rafi but not KK also I will not agree that Lata Ji sang better than Mohd rafi for LP…..L from LP said after mohd rafi died in 1980 that how we will make songs without mohd rafi…..
would please compare KK with Mukesk or mannay Day or any other singer please,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
We strongly disagree to the post number 1072 by so called vilinist sandeep nadkani. he was only vioinist. kishore made nakharas as he disliked potics. pancham had to use him as he was most popular and dada burmans most favorite singer. dada burman wanted pancham to use nly kishore. dada burman’s chemistry was best with ishore and vice versa. It was india’s best music comoser making a judicious selection of ishore as the best top singer of india though he also liked rafi.
kihore was best in ood cpturing “yeh jeevan hai”, “zindagi ka safr”, “kab tak andhere”, “anewala pal” such divine was not possessed by rafi.
again kishore was nottilized properly by any comoser except sdburman, salil choudharyto some extent rdb, rajesh roshan to lesser extent by lp, ka.
thesheer strenth of kishoe’s quality of voice was afrwards demonstarted by nadim shravan and annu malik by using ishore clone sanu. had they come on scence earlier and made kishore sing in the tone minusingthe slight thinnes and nasal tune the site kishore or rafi even the question would not have surfaced. it is pity of rdb, rr, lp ka hat they could not make best se of divine office
ref post 1122.
Yes it was true hat lp tried to give all best songs to rafi and it is ok for the singer to not to sing quwwali.
lps best wok is ith kishore and it is miles ahead of lp-rafi combo or even lp-lta combo. whenevr lp found going difficult they sed kishore in 1973 and 1974 hey used kishore extensively to score over rd. same thing they repaeted in 1987 withMr. india.
the best songs of lp are “ye eeva ai”, “mere mehboob kayamat hogi”, “aanabi tum ane pahachane”, “ruk ana nahi”, “mere di me aa kya hai”. they hve patos and depth.
yes it is rue that lp got ishore tosing hazans. surprisingly in”aaspass” a rfi dominated score they used kishore for the beest tune a bhazan “mze prem ka rog laga”. this in 190s.
guru murtiji, if my memory is correct rd’s first filims awere chotea nawaab (not naqli nawaab )and bhoodh bungla.the md of naqli nawaab , i think,is ravi. am i correct? any how rd’s audacity is appriciable, he even dare to sing yemha ..yemmaha with rafi saab.
Ek KALAKAR ko kaise neecha dikhana – yeh baat r d burman aur unke pita bahut khoob jaante hai.
yeh hindi film industry waaleh aise hi hai. pehle oopar uthate hai aur ekdum se gira dete hai.
but quality never fails and mohd rafi showed that in ample number of hits post 1977. mohd rafi’s first storming the charts was in the fifties. the second was in the late seventies.
jaisi karni waise bharni. rd burman ka kiya unpar bhi aa giraa. unke last days bahut burah ho gaya tha.
sangeet jaise bhool hi gaye the. but the world will remember rdb and sdb for some of their great songs and orchestration. mohd rafi played a big part in their music.
binu nair, rafi foundation, mumbai
The film industry was also indulging with bias. Most of Music Diretor made career of their community’s singer and actor. Two big bias persons in film industry was Lata and S.D.Burman/R.D.Burman. Being a non-suitable voice to the prevailing actor, R.D.Burman/S.D.Burman knowingly highlighted Kishor Kumar’s voice whether Producer/Director be agree or not. Same activities made by lata she always raised her family’s voice and after that Mukesh, Kishor and at last was Rafi. Late mangeshar made efforts many times to degrade the rafi’s voice. But it is bliss rafi’s simplecity even he may reign to the heart of million. But change is always go to the right ways during rajesh khanna’s decade most of music director did not given full song. But after the downfall career of Rajesh khanns’ after his Roti Film. Rafi Saheb’s career again reach in big hights. After repentness R.D.Burman give big chance to sing with great music like Hum Kisi se Kam Nahi.Abdulla and Shaan etc. I know lot of song sung by rafi for RD/SD which was not released yet being in custody. RD/SD burman ‘s family members should be released in large for the rafi’s lover
akgautam
akgautam@indiatimes.com
Uzair Saab,
Very apt argument. No doubt, KK was a genius – Singer, Actor, Producer, Director and Music Director. But as for as Singing is concerened, Rafi and Lata are the two bests.
Sir Uzair
I don’t know if you saw program on Zee TV by KK sons Amit Kummar and his younger brother when Amit Kummar tried to sing Mohd Rafi song but he was not able to do that .
RD was great and he will be but as I think he was not able to give better hit than TEESRI MANZIL,
Jest listen to this song “Tu Hindu Banega Ya Musalmaan Banega”than write about Mohd Rafi or compare him with any singer you like
her aadmi ki apni pasand hoti hai for favourite singer, aur uski bohat wajayien bhi hosaktien hain. Mager hum ko do cheezain samajhni chahiye,
1- majority fans professional nahi hotay hain aur na hi unko itni samajh hoti haigayaki ki
2- Jinko samajh hoti hai (ziada auron se), woh behter opinion de sakte hain.
Rafi sahab along with Lata jee was given the best playback singers of the millenium (outlook magazine), the jury jinhon ne yeh faisla kia tha, included many great singers and composers including mana dey sahab. so unke paas hum se ziada samajh hogi tabhi unho ne rafi sahab ko behtareen gayak chuna and preferred him over others i.e. mana dey, mukesh or kk.
Many of you people are talking about kishore kumar and in some way comparing him with rafi sahab. For all kishore kumar fans here here are some interesting facts about both of them:
– in 70’s when filmfare recieved a letter from a person who said that he is the biggest Rafi fan, and this letter was sent by non other than kishore da.
– in 70’s when number of songs of rafi sahab were decreasing only in terms of quantity and not quality, media tried to do the same thing and questioned kishore kumar about him being greater or equal to rafi sahab, kishoreda instantly replied “no singer has ever achieved nor will achieve what rafi sahab has achieved”.
– one of the many songs picturised on kk but sung by rafi sahab, the md said that “this song was not kishore’s cup of tea”, similarly rafi sahab himself said that no one could have sung “dukhi man mere” better than kishore.
– Manna dey is and was the best trained singer , even better than lata or asha, always have considered rafi sahab as the greatest ever singer and kishoreda as the greatest ever performer.
– Kumar Sanu and Bappi Lehri are from the kk camp, and also follow the same singing style. I myself have heard both of them saying on TV that rafi sahab was the greatest singer. even kumar sanu has always resisted on singing rafi sahab songs in concerts because any mistake would be like a sin.
In the end i would like to say that kishore kumar was a great performer and a singing legend individually and Rafi sahab was legends of legends because of his share versitality, dedication, and contribution to indian film music.
I dont think that RDB was not a great music director, he WAS. So were many others who have been named above. It is the collective contribution of these music directors that has I think preserved the greateness and the multi-faceted quality of Indian music for posterity(not to forget our classical singers and artistes- Hinduatani & Carnatak).
As far as the film singers ar concerned, Rafi, Lata, Kk, Mukesh, Manna dey., Asha Bhonsle are immortal, there music will live for ever…..
No point comparing any one of them to another….
Arghya,
There is some deal of truth in it that relatively fewer patriotic songs were made in 70’s when compared to 60’s. 40’s and 50’s had their own share of patriotic songs I don’t think 60’s would account for 90%. You may want to add Watan Ki Raah Pe Watan Ki Naujawan Shaheed ho to the list from 1948 superhit Shaheed.
Around 1970 there came a few robust patriotic songs like the ones from Poorab Aur Paschim, Prem Pujari etc. Generally speaking Kishore was excused from taking up those kind of assignments even if the MD in question used to take him for other songs in the same movie. This is largely true for genres like Qawali’s or Bhajans as well. In Sanjeev Kumar starrer Manchali Kishore had two nice hit songs yet the MD gave a soulful Bhajan to Mukesh in the same movie. Even in 80’s when two of the big three (Rafi and Mukesh) were gone, assignments from such genres didn’t automatically fall in Kishore’s lap.
Thanks
Naveen
R D preferred KK, just because of a very simple reason…HIS kind of music suited the voice of KK. Why cant you guys see that a song is not just a song for those who’d produced them, nourished them as a dream and then went on realizing them…its like concieving a baby, giving birth to him and then watching him grow…can we question a parent for the descisions he takes for the welbeing of his child? No! we cant…similarly a music director has every right to choose a singer who, he thinks will do justice to his creation…with due respect to Rafi Saab, its just that his style didnt gel with RD’s, except for few songs(some of them are briliant i must say)…and RD knew this…
For, he was not as great as OP Nayyar, Naushad, Madan Mohan etc…I think somebody is highly mistaken and speaking about somebody, for whom even the word great seems to be small…How can somebody call Namkeen a mediocre music??? In your words, “If a person cannot appreciate PANCHAM’S greatness, then it can be safely concluded that the person does not have a sense of music.”…and i mean it buddy…
For sashi kapoor’s comment…I can only say…that he would never be known as a film maker or actor who even had the slightest hint about music…he was a great film maker though…
A bit of advice…dig more into RD…you’ll forget everything…bye…
Extremely sorry for my post 1122 which was in reference to post 1121 and not 1118 as I wrongly put.. Sorry for that,,,
And if we feel Kishore’s complaining to LP about “best songs given to rafisaab” was not sporty enough, then Rafisaab also had went to Naushad saab in 1973 when market was against him.. Naushadsaab handpicked some songs for certain movies for Rafisaab and also assured rafisaab that” don;t worry, just remember, the person who has dethroned you does not have any classical training”
Let us get out of these trivial anecdotes to show someone down.. RD was inclined to Kishore, but it was rafisaab’s greatness, whatever chances he got with RDB, he proved full frutifulness.. What if LP was more into RAfisaab’s camp, I never think the songs which they composed for Kishore or the way kishore have rendered them also, were inferior in any sense..
Post No. 1118
The singer is kishore kumar.. And he has sung qawalis like “Haal kya hai dilon ka”, “Wada tera wada”, “mere pyaale mein sharaab daal de” etc. under LP.. Definitely, there should be no dispute that in qawalli, rafi saab was the best..And KK might have admitted that also.. And I don’t find anything unfair in complaining to MDs by him, as he only knew how tough it had been for him to reach on top after spending 22 years in film singing..At least whatever variety of songs he handled under LP, he did full justice..
Do you know, in 60s, Rafisaab had once told a famous MD to pass over a song of him to Mahendra Kapoor? Should we take it as a lack of confidence from rafisaab?? Nahi na? that might have been due to affection, due to various other factors as rafisaab was a true lion hearted singer of that era…
a singer used to tell mohd rafi loyalist laxmikant and pyarelal in the seventies : “all good songs you are giving to mohd rafi”. the same singer was not prepared to sing a qawali for l and p.
he said, please give this quawali to rafi saaheb. it was lack of confidence, mood, etc… , nothing to do with large-heartedness for mohd rafi saaheb who will never refuse to sing any type of songs – even for free from broke producers and composers. and no royalties too.
how many mohd rafis you will find, in this world dear music lovers.
binu nair, rafi foundation, mumbai…
binus2000@hotmail.com
Hi Friends…
Md. Rafi Sahab is uniq in his own way and Kishore da is in his own and also Mukesh Sahab As mr. arghya says the were all true human beings so they all left us the golden treasure thats thier voice and the melodie….:-)
I’d consider closing the “True Voice” & “RD Burman” thread in the near future. Not because there was any problem. If anything, I greatly enjoyed the many topics discussed and all the new, interesting visitors (and there have been many if you go through the hundreds of posts). However, these two topics keep feeding themselves and in the process overshadow other, wonderful topics. I’m discontent seeing a Mohammed Rafi – Shankar Jaikishan anecdotal article (written by someone who met those greats first hand on several occasions) get only 24 replies. Such a topic deserves much more. We’ll keep doing other topics and I’m sure another 6 months, 1 yr later there will be an encore of whatever topics we still want to discuss more. Just my 2 cents.
Sorry to miss a classic patriotic song
Dur hatho ae duniyawalon hindustaan hamara hai. Kismat(1944)
Composer is our all time favourite Anil Biswas!
Some of the best patriotic songs of Indian cinema:
1. Apna desh hai apna desh hai apna desh. Apna desh(1949)
2. Vande mataram. Anand Math(1952)
3. Chhodo kal ki baatein. Hum Hindustani(1960)
4. Jaha daal daal par sone ki chidiya karti hai basera(1960)
5. Ae mere watan ke logon(1961)
6. Kar chale hum fida. Haqeeqat(1964)
7. Nanha munha rahi hoon. Son of India(1962)
8. Ae mere pyare watan. Kabuliwalah(1961)
9. Apni azaadi ko hum. Leader(1964)
10. Mere desh ki dharti. Upkaar(1967)
11. Hotho pe sachhai rehti hai. Jis desh me ganga behti hai(1959)
12. Ae watan ae watan humko teri kasam. Shaheed(1963)
13. Mera rang de basanti chola. Shaheed(1963)
14. Mere des me pawan chale purwayi.Jigri Dost(1969)
15. Hai preet jaha ki reet sada. Poorab aur Paschhim(1970)
16. Har karam apna karenge(1984)
There might be certain misses but these are I think the best patriotic songs of hindi cinema.. It is clear that most of the songs belong to 1960s when kishore was not even considered a serious singer(“considered”) and when he actually came on top, ie, post 1969, there was a huge gap in number of patriotic songs in cinema as compared to the earlier decade…
I am not trying to defend kishore, but this trend change has definitely something to do with kishore’s ultimately less singing of patriotic songs.. just as a matter of interest I did the analysis nothing to defend kishore-as again i am saying..
The reason for patriotic songs coming down in 70s and 80s are many and can be better discussed under socio-cultural influence on cinema..
Talking about patriotic songs.. Can someone tell me how many patriotic songs Rafi,Manna de or MK sang during the period of 1969-1987????
The period which kishore ruled was short of patriotism.. Movies like Shaheed, Haqeeqat, Kabuliwalah,Upkaar, Purab aur Paschim, Hum Hindustani, Son of India, Leader – were already made in 60s when the nation was going through a crisis!!
still, whatever patriotic films were made in 70s like Aakraman- it was kishoreda who sang the patriotic songs.. Only in 1984, after a long wait, we could get a memorable patriotic song like †Dil diya hai jaan bhi denge ae watan tere liye†which is of course, a non-kishore song!!
I bet, if you start enlisting patriotic songs of other singers( this seems to be the basis of degrading KK), 90% would fall in 60s- where we had to face 2 wars which we almost had lost!! The level of patriotism in 60s can’t be compared with that of 70s.. Dada did not have enough scope to sing patriotic songs in 70s.. Thatz a socio-cultural gap, nothing to do with his singing abilities!!
Arghya – 1108
True, as you said Manish kumar ji is a balanced individual who has due respect to all the great singers. In fact, I have seen some of his fine contributions in RMIM also. There are few people who are like manish ji, who sincerely are genuine music lovers and are interested in knowing true knowledge of musical contribution by great singers and whatever it may be.
Binu Nair sir – 1109.
I am fully with you sir, The 50’s to 70’s period of musical environment is everlasting and cannot be compared with any of the subsequent years. Who could actually compose such type of music, which was in itself creative, original and incomparable and perfectly fine even from classical point of view. The great music directors & singers specially rafi ji, who lived in that era have made oustanding & everlasting contributions. Sir, As I am a telugu man, I can share with you that, this 50’s to 70’s environment is applicable in our telugu field too. Like the great & everlasting rafi ji and lata in hindi, there were ghantasala and suseela in telugu. In fact, I am aware sir, in those days, people used to wait for songs by the great rafi ji, (rather than film stories) such was the tremendous influence which he exercised over the masses. The charm has not lost even today and we expect that it shall continue for many more years to come.
Kumar
gyara so now me binu nair ji ka post ka uttar hai ye post.
salamat rahe dostana hamara binu ji – aapki yaad ko dilana chahata u mein kyonki, kkda ka khubsoorat aawaz rafi ji ka awaz se adhik sundar hai. yeh gaana kafi hai, kk ji ka pehchan ke liye. pachas se sathar tak ka music thik hai. Kya aap chahate hai ki, sab log hamesha budhe logon ki gaane sunte hue apne jindagi gujare. Thoda jawan logon ka or alag sangeet ka maja jaise kishore ji ka, lene do aadmiyon ko. Mante he, rafi ka contribution kafi accha tha, ye matlab nahi ki kishore piche reh jayen. Aap jante hai ki, kk ji ka position kya tha 69 ke baad. dusra prashn – jab edhar kishore ji ki tarif ki jaa rai hai, aap ghantasala ji ka kyon smaran kar rahe hai. Aap or hum or sub jante he ki ghantasala ji bahut hi bade kalakar the, magar unke bare me baatchit edhar sahi nahi hoga – yeh phir alag raste ka topic hoga.
Rahi paramjeet ji ki baat, ham unse puri tara sahamat hai. shastreeya sangeet (classical music), agar aap kehate hai ki, rafi bahut khoobsoorat hai, yeh nai maana ja sakta. Main sirf hindusthani kalakaro ki baat kar raho hoon, kyonki rafi hindusthani musician the, carnatic dakshin kalakaron (jaise ghantasala) se unka comparison or mukabala thik nahi hai. Pakki baath kahenge to manna dey ji ka bada edge hai rafi ji ke upar, shuddh shastreeya sangeet mein. Lata ji or asha ji bhi shastreeya sangeet daud me aagen hai. Rahi kk ji kaa role, unhone alag tarike se apna contribution diya. Bina classical training ke, kk ji ne music compose kiya tha. Yeh kaafi hai unki tarif karne ki.
Binu Nair ji,
Bahut khub, ab to shuddh hindi bhasha me discussion karenge/bhashan denge. Bahut he maja aa raha hai. vichitra bat to ye hai ki, jab edhar kisi ne kaha tha ki, rafi, kishore, ghantasala or anek kalakar jab aapas me ek dusre ko bahut hi gourav dete the, unke fans aapas me jhagad rahe he. Yeh badi hi vichitra bat hai.
Salil never used any male singer frequently. It was a wide spread buffet when it came to male singers, Mukesh, Rafi, Manna, Talat, Kishore, Yesudas etc. Just like SDB never had a prominent duet pair (in terms of totals), it was varied, i.e Lata-Rafi, Asha-Rafi, Geeta-Rafi, Lata-Kishore, Asha-Kishore. However Salil did acknowledge Rafi to be the best.
Salil was more of a female-oriented composer, and used Lata in an excellent way. There is no doubt though, when he used Rafi, the results were fantastic.
Imagine a playback singer coming to the recording room to record, finds the nuances and the task very daunting and then leave the studios on some pretext.
in the annals of h f m, there is only one singer who has done so. some of the supporters now say that “this is the large heartedness of the singer who wanted to recommend the song to the next singer”.
all very absurd like their thoughts, analysis, theories to prove that their favourite singer has an edge or is atleast on the same plane as mohd rafi.
i admire their penchant to strike “jokes” in this forum music forum.
binus
KK himself wanted so many songs which he was suppose to record, to be recorded by Rafi..
murthy sir, does this point really matter? Because, even Rafisaab in 60s, used to tell composers so many times to give a song to mahendra kapoor, when the composers wanted him only to sing!! This is the greatness of rafisaab!! kishoreda was also very humble towards rafisaab.. the mutual respect they used to carry is a learning to present day singers, who don’t leave any chance to degrade each other!! They were like brothers..So, if at all kishore had said something in the studio, that could be because of his respect towards rafisaab! Even rafisaab used to respect kishoreda a lot! in 1979, when kishore was having a tough time with the then government who imposed ban on him and producers were not getting the confidence to use his voice as freely as they were earlier doing, Rafisaab himself came forward and helped kishore a lot in that phase.. This was the level of mutual respect they used to carry..
So, this point, I really don’t think carry any weight…
Golden were those days, when we had singers like rafi and kishore, composers like naushad and sachin dev burman, lyricists like sahir and majrooh..not merely because they were great artists but because they were true human beings!!!
Binuji..
we have ritght to choose favourite singer.. main kisi ko yeh nahi kehta ki kishore ko best mano.. agar kal ko koi kehta hai mahendra kapoor sabse badiya hai to uske paas bhi kuchh points honge.. to is baare me baat karna dispute badhane ke barabar hai.. maine isi liye aap pe react kia tha kyunki aap ne is tarah se kishoreda pe aur mere pe(waise, meri baat chhod dijiye)..sirf aap hi nahi, aur bhi do char log the jo ki mujhe lagta hai frustration ke shikar hai.. magar, aese kayin members bhi hai jo rafisaab ko best maante hai aap ki tarah, magar unke baaton se frustration ya kisi ko kam dikhane ka nazariya nahi rehta..
rahi sawal meri, to main Kishore aur Rafi ko ek barabar maanta hoon.. aap rafi ko upar maan sakte hai, laakhon log aese hai jo kishore ko upar maante hai, to yeh sirf endless dispute hai aur kuchh nahi.. mujhe jo bhi kehna tha maine keh diya hai..
Paramjeet ji : aap ke hindi, kayee baar sar ke upar se chale jaate hai. agar aap hamare english achii tarah se samajh jaate hai to thoda prayatna karke “english” hee me kyon nahi likhte ho ???
kya aap kehna chaahte ho ke guru kishore kumar aur mohd rafi saaheb “ek barabar ke hai”? agar haan to mai isko, one-up-man-ship kehta hai.
thoda ruko. kuch he time me aur bhi aap jaisai koyee yahan par aayega aur kahega ke rafi-kishore-ghantasala me koyee antar nahin hai.
kya hum aap ke arguments/viewpoints accept kare aur golden period of songs of hfm from fifties to seventies ko bhool jaaye. kya aap ye chaahte hai??? jara dil par rakhkar yeh bataaye aur koyee hindi diaglogues ka sahara na le…. is baar.
binu nair
Really would love to meet Guru Murthy sir or Manish Kumar ji one day to learn and share more about the farishta- Rafisahab!! You two are the most amazing fans of rafisaab in this community… All points you put up are logical, you show respect to all, defend your point but don’t degrade anyone- beautiful! Wish both of you all the best in your endeavours!!
Murthy Sir,
Aap ke comments itne polite aur well-behaved hote hai, sahi me, mujhe pata nahi kyun magar main behek jata hoon Binu Nair ya P Haladar jaise logon ki baaton se..
Aap bilkul sahi hai sir ki, Rafisaab ke patriotic gaane jitne popular hue the, utna popular hona to dur, kaafi saare kishoreda ke patriotic gaane to release bhi nahi hue the.. Magar, agar aap achhe se meri aur aapke chahite binu ji ke discussions dekhenge, to binuji ne is tarah se baat chhedi thi ki Kishoreda ko patriotic ya semi-classical gaane “aate hi nahi the”!!( example: Binuji ka comment-” Kishore ke 4 classcial ya patriotic gaane batake dikhaao”)- Jo ki mujhe laga galat hai! Agar kisi singer ne kam classical gaane gaye to iska matlab yeh nahi ki aap usko neecha dikhaao, jabki aapne us singer ko achhe se soona hi nahi!!!!! Aur agar classical gaana hi aham mudda hai, main khud hindustani sangeet mein diploma karke yeh kehta hoon, fir Rafisaab kyun, Kumar Gandharv ya Bhimsen Joshi ko best singer bolna chahiye!!! Magar aap yeh bhi jaante ho ki yeh sahi baat nahi hai!!
Thank you, Gurumurthy sir for the clarification and additional informations. Would like to echo your words in your post# 1104, especially about the great entertainer named Kishore Kumar.
//KK himself wanted so many songs which he was suppose to record, to be recorded by Rafi, for example “Nafrat Ki Duniya†from Haathi Mere Saathi, though the hero wanted only KK to sing.//
Nafrat Ki Duniya example is not true. That seems to be just an internet rumor (sort of like the misunderstanding on Rafi & Anil Biswas or Rafi & Salil Choudhury). These things just get sensationalized beyond proportion (my criticism is not for any individual but just the consequences).
Mr. Kaustubh Pingle had personally interviewed Pyarelal and asked about the song. Pyarelal told him that the song was composed right from the start with Rafi in mind. Kishore was never asked to sing this. It’s true that Rajesh Khanna demanded Kishore as his playback singer (I applaud his rightful loyalty) but the MDs have a say in this too and Rafi it was.
Dear Paramjeetji,
Your Post No. 1095.
Let me make it very clear that I am also a big fan of Kishore and have already listed elsewhere Kishore songs, which I would love to listen. But I have few comments on the choice of seven patriotic songs of KK, which you have listed.
1. Though I do not claim myslef to be any sort of authority on HIndi Film Music, still I would say that I am perhaps one of the crazy fans of Hindi Film Music listening to them for the past about 50 years, even while studying for my School or College exams. Of course, I would be totally stumped if you ask me any thing on the songs of Singers who came after 1980. I am still in the World of Rafi, KK, HK, MK, Muskesh, Mannadey, Lata, Suman, Asha, Geeta, Talat, etc. and even KL Saigal.
2. But I would readily admit that most of the songs you have listed, I have not heard except sl. no. 4 and 5.
3. The Kraanti song strcitly cannot be called a patriotic song, especially the first two antaras of KK and Lata.
4. The Aakraman song definitley is not a popular patriotic song as compared to other patriotic songs sung by Rafi, Lata, Mukesh, Hemant, MK, Mannadey, Lata, Asha, etc. I need not list out these songs as these songs are on the lips of most HFM fans. The Aakraman song also suffers in qulaity as conmpared to other songs.
5. I am sure, you yourself will not comapre these seven songs with other popular songs like Kar Chale Hum Fida or Apni Aazadi or Meri Desh Ki Dharti or Ae Mere Watan Ke Logo or Hai Preet Jahan Ki Reet Sada or Hoton Pe Sachai or Chitti Aayi Hai or Har Karm Apna Karenge or Ae Watan or Jahan Daal Daal Par or Ae Mere Pyaare Watan, etc.
Regarding classical songs, the Ragini song was recorded in Rafi’s voice only because OPN felt that he could do justice to the song better than KK. Also, the Shararat song “Ajab Dastaan Teri Ye Zindagi” was in Rafi’s voice, though picturised on KK, because it was a high pitch song, which the MDs SJ thought that Rafi could do full justice. You will appreciate that singing raag based song is one thing and singing a classical song with alaap, etc. is another (Songs like Kuhu Kuhu from Suvarna Sundari or Madhuban Me Radhika from Kohinoor). In fact, KK himself wanted so many songs which he was suppose to record, to be recorded by Rafi, for example “Nafrat Ki Duniya” from Haathi Mere Saathi, though the hero wanted only KK to sing.
Please note that none of us are anti – KK, on the otherhand, we like his songs, his acting, his film making and would readily adnmit that he was one of the genius in the Hindi Film Industry. But singing-wise, definitely Rafi was the best, which is even admitted by Mannadey on so many occassions. And Mannadey perhaps is the closest to Rafi as far as talent was concerned, who could sing qawali and classical, the two types, which most of the other singers could not sing like these two.
In fact, qawali is another song, which KK did not sing. Can we imagine KK singing qawalis of Barsaat Ki Raat (Ishq Ishq Hai) or AAA or HKKN. In fact, Mannadey has admitted in print that when the Barsaat Ki Raat qawali was getting recorded, when Rafi enetred the qawali in the middle, Mannada was so engrossed in Rafi’s singing that he forgot that he is also part of the recording.
Well Sir, please take out from your mind that people are against KK. In fact we also love him and respect his contributions.
Anilji,
“Dil Padape Tadapaye” was sung by Rafi. Perhaps, Salil chose Rafi because the song had a particular note in the second antara (kisko sada dun), where the line had to be raised and extended which of course, only Rafi could have done. Otherwise, Salil used his favourite singer Mukesh for all other songs in this movie. Also please note that Mahendra was not a Salil singer.
In those days, Rafi used to sing extensively for Manoj and Mukesh was the other singer. MK used to sing one or two songs here and there for Manoj as in Hariyaali Aur Raasta (Kho gaya Hain Mera Pyaar), Shaheed (Mera Rangde Basanti), Sawan Ki Ghata (Meri Jaan Tumse). Came Upkar and MK became Manoj’s Singer. Later Rafi was his main Singer only in movies like Do Badan, Sajan, Amanat and Saibaba and Mukesh in Sohanlal Kanwar movies like Pehchaan, Beimaan, Sanyasi, etc.
aur binuji, jo composers ki aap baat kare hai unme O P Nayyar saab the, yeh main achhe se jaanta hoon.. Nayyar saab ke personal preferences biased the, aur kain baar gayaki ko chhodke bahut saare aur bhi drishtikon aa jaate the unke sangeet nirdeshan mein.. yeh bhi hum jaante hai..
Haan, yeh baat hai, ki agar sachin dev burman saab, panchamda, kalyanji bhai, rajesh roshan saab, salil chowdhuryji- yeh sangeetkar, jo dada ko achhe se jaante the aur jinhone unse challenging gaane karwake liye hai, agar woh kehte hai, to koi dum hai usme..
Raha sawal, sandeep nadkarniji ka….. Unka naam maine pehle kabhi suna nahi.. Unke jaise kam se kam 50-60 music arrangers ko main bhi personally jaanta hoon.. Mujhe poora respect hai in logon pe.. yeh woh saare nayak hai, jo kabhi chitrapat pe aate nahi magar saare kaam kar jaate hai.. Magar, ek choice diya jaye, ki Sandeep Nadkarni ko manoon ya Satyajit Ray ko( inhone bhi kishore ko music direction diya hai), to main Bharat ke ek matra Oscar vijeta nirdeshak ki baat hi manoonga.. Yeh ek aam aadmi ki kamzori hai!!
Binu sir.. Aapne topic thodasa diversify kar diya.. Jo baat aap ne last post me kahi, wohi baat agar aap pehle hi bol dete to itne saare discussions ki zaroorat hi nahi padti:))
Kishoreda ke recording rooms ki baatein bahut se logo ko pata hai.. Magar wohi maine kaha ke unke vinamrata ko agar koi twist karna chahe( ho sakta hai aap nahi, aese bahut saare aur log hai) to woh achhi baat nahi..
Magar, haan, kuchh gaane jo maine aapko upar bataya hai, ho krupaya sun lijiyega.. Thodisi izzat aur bad jayegi aap ke aur bahut saare sangeet premiyon ke dil mein, kishore kumar ke liye..Rafisaab jaise gayak banne ke liye insaan ko kai janam lena padta hai, yeh baat aapne bilkul sahi kaha hai.. hindi cinema me agar kisi kalakaar ne playback singing ko pehli baar itna maryada ke star pe pahuchaya hai to woh hai Rafisaab.. 40 ke dashak ke ant me jab Kishore industry me aaye to shayad woh bhi Rafisaab jaise lokpriya hi banna chahte the(Saigal saab ke jaisa to bilkul hi).. Mere charche ka ek aham hissa yehi tha ki Kishore kumar ko stereotype karne ke ya unse nafrat karne ke jagah, thodasa unke uncommon gaane bhi sune.. Maine Rafisaab ke lagbhag 2100 hindi aur punjabi gaane aur kishoreda ke 2400 gaane-Hindi aur Bangla milakar sune hai..
Aur ek baat Mr. arghya ne achhi kahi hai yoodleeyoo.com mein, ki, shayad Lataji, Ashaji, R D Burman saab ya Satyajit Ray bhi kabhi yeh explain nahi kar paye ke unko kishore kumar hio kyoon best lagte the.. Lataji ne 2007 me Kishoreda ko best kaha(arghyasaab ke article me hi pada)- jab rafisaab ko gujre 27 saal aur kishoreda ko guzre 20 saal ho chuke the.. Koi political gain to ho nahi skta tha na Latajiko 2007 mein? Jo bhi kaha, ek co-singer hone ke naate hi kaha na? Shayad yehi baat mere liye aur lakhon Kishoreda ke fans ke liye bhi lagoo hai? Aap log yeh explain kar sakte ho ki rafisaab kyun best the, hum nahi kar sakte hai kyunki wohi “X-factor”( arghyaji, sorry, aap ki bhasha prayog kar raha hoon yaha par), jo kain baar vyakhya ke upar ho jaat hai!!