True Voice – Mohd Rafi
The following article was brought to my notice when Sharad posted it on MAS. The article has been trimmed down a bit keeping afloat Rafi details. However, anyone interested can go visit the source at http://tfmpage.com/forum/4980.6302.04.57.19.html
I am Swaminatha Iyer and I am 78 years old. I hail from Tiruchi and I am a part of music associations in Tiruchi, M’as as well as in West Bengal and Maharashtra.
I think it is wrong to condemn music or artists on either side of Vindhyas. Our Indian music is one of the few which has not been cleaned off by the western music though there has always been a influence. It speaks a lot of the richness of our music. Sometime back director of MTV had said that MTV westernized the music wherever it went but in India , MTV had to be Indianized for it to be accepted. A lot of this credit goes to the Indian film music.
I have been fortunate to have close personal association with Rafi, Sirkali, TMS, Dr. BMK, Kishore, SPB & KJY, PS, Mannadey and the one and only Lata Mangeshkar.
Comparisons are bound to come, but almost every artist or I have met considers Lata to be beyond comparison. Her talents are beyond anyone’s reach. Even Sirkazi used to talk of her singing like a die-hard fan as do countless others.
Now coming to the Rafi-SPB discussion. It might be difficult to convince an South Indian to believe Rafi is the better and at the same time Rafi crowd will never believe any other male singer comes anywhere nearer. There is one more mobile crowd, which is well conversant with Hindi and some south Indian language. Majority of them tilt to either Rafi or Kishore.
During one of my stays in M’as I had stayed with SPB. While talking of true voices he said, I don’t feel like half a singer when listening to Rafi. True voice is not a tech term but many in circle use it. Perfect example would be lata, but to understand consider our own PS who within her range is superb. People who do not have such true voices can never do justice to original. They generally underplay many parts of the song or fake it with bass/superficial singing. True voices make people like Sirkazi, Nusrat Fateh Ali khan, Lata… Inimitable. However since Sirkazi and Nusrat did not have the filmy voices their “real” following is limited to their local arena.
In addition to the true voice if the singer has a very good voice then in “most” cases he/she can better songs of others. It is this combination which makes Rafi stand out among the other male singers. There are many here who seem to have mistaken notions on a good bass and also on high pitch.
Bryan Adams does not require a monster bass in “Summer of 69” to sound real manly. It is the punch which gives that feel and that is decided only by the comfort level in most ranges (that is by what your throat can support). This you CAN never disguise with bass. Since people have talked about lack of manly voice viz. a viz. Rafi it was necessary to bring this point out. I have had the fortune of listening to most singers in studio and some times without a mike, practicing with MD’s.When Lata or Rafi do, the level is so high that people hesitate to even hum. It felt silly to sing in their presence (and it feels silly when someone says his voice isn’t manly).
In RD’s tribute when SPB sang “Aaja Aaja mein hoon” or “Chaand mera dil” it sounded only sweet and lacked punch if you compare with Rafi’s original.
Yesu once told me God has been partial to Rafi. He said “god gift term anavasyamaa romba common aa ippo use aardu”.. but idu Rafi kee thaan 100% porundu”. This person could sing “as intricately as a lady without sounding thin”, “cover any mood”, “versatility odey perfect example Rafi”. Yesu said most important is the comfort level over ranges which makes you feel God has been partial to Rafi. (But Of course in Rafi’s early career (1950’s) the voice was relatively feeble).
To people exposed to Rafi’s talent, these or any amount of praise can only seem less. I just wish he was alive and you people could get a live chance to hear him. Probably you can get hold of the DD album for the Geet Gaata Chal series where the first four episodes were dedicated to Rafi. Rafi is on camera singing “O Duniya Ke Rakwaaley” and many other songs. If you see and hear the last part you will realize why SPB said “impossible”. I think particularly those people who have talked about scales w.r.t Rafi should see this album. Its a known fact in industry that Rafi ruled high pitch and there is no male singer better in switching notes so easily. There are artists who can go beyond but then they sound strained or they don’t have pleasant voices when they venture into those territories.
Many singers of today are his compulsive followers. But they end up inheriting only part of his quality. Md. Aziz ended up with a sad voice. Mahendra Kapoor with a thick nasal voice. Anwar with a nasal voice. Sonu Nigam with a feminine voice. Rafi neither had a soft voice nor a heavy (bass) voice he had a good voice. Importantly did not strain at high notes, and voice if at all only became better at higher notes. If you see him singing it will remind you of Janaki. However diff the song is or the note is he will be smiling and singing. It is unthinkable that he cannot sing something.
There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo” song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect. There are lot of other songs of SPB where this great singer has played with songs in total control. You will find most south Indian singers who have had a good exposure say that it is beneficial to learn Hindustani as it gives better breath control and improves expression.
Rafi was not only able to glide over a song, the important thing was that he could express each word/sound when singing. It is one thing to hold your breath, start and reach a crescendo (high note), as like in “Shankara”, “Anbey (Yennai kaan villaye)” it is different ballgame if you have to do it from low notes or suddenly switch notes. With practice the former can be done, latter requires a special gift. Rafi had a natural ability to do the latter. In “Tum joh mil gaye ho” there is such a transition in the “karwaan mil gaya” part. I have never seen anyone do justice to most of his songs in my life time. In “parda hai parda” quawaali the similar part is “kar doon to, Akbar mera naam”. In fact most of his songs will have these specialty as it was his natural ability to sing freely in a wide range at the same time giving that extra expression.
Whereas SPB takes us to heavens with “Idu oru pon maali”,”Ilaya nila” “bisiladarenu”(kannada), when he sings Rafi’s song it lacks the punch or expression, though it has the bass. But at least most agree that SPB does some justice to original, whereas most others murder the original.
One trivial point I would like to add is that singing in Hindi is harder. There are more “JHA”,”CHA”,”HA”,”THA”, “KHA”,”JA”,”FA”. These take away the breath faster. The more expressive you are the more air you are using up. Just singing from Nabhi will not help, your throat also needs to do a lot, for singing in Hindi, Bengali etc. SPB makes you fall in love with his south Indian songs but same cannot be said about his Hindi songs. If you just glide through words having these sounds, you will never be expressive. Doing this as well as reaching high notes is not easy. Rafi had this gift and that’s why it is difficult to imagine anyone else in his shoes. Song “Chalkaaye jaam” has so much expression that it is unthinkable how anyone can sing it. When Rafi switches to a high note with “Mitwaa” in the song “Chaahunga mein tughey” you cannot replicate it with bass. Most others will sound as if they are shouting in such cases. That man’s throat had the ability to freely sing at such levels.
Versatility is not just the ability to sing in various styles, more important is how good you are singing in those styles. You have lot of Ghazal singers today but when Rafi sings a Ghazal you will sit up and take notice. You don’t have to be part of the Ghazal listeners crowd. This is one important aspect. Whatever style you sing you should be able to pull the common man to listen and not just a particular crowd. Pick “parda hai parda” or any qawalli and it will stand tall among other qawalli’s.
Variety is amazing :
songs of Guru Dutt’s Khagaz key phool or songs like abhi naa jao chod key, Aaja teri yaad aayi, Aaj kal mein dhal gaya, Aaj kal terey merey pyaar, Aasmaan sey aaya farishta, Dil ney pyaar kiya hai, Deewana mujh saa nahi, Din dhal jaaye, Duniya paagal hai, Jaane walon jara, Dil joh na kaha saka, Dil key jharokon mein, Dil kaa bhavar, Chalkey teri aakkhon sey, Kar chaley hum fida, khilona jaan kar tum, Woh jab yaad aay, Woh hain jara khafa, Vaadian mera daaman, Pathar key sanam, Chaand mera dil, Main zindagi kaa saath, Mainey poocha chaand sey, sun sun jaalima, Koi jab raah na paay, hum to chaley pardes, badan pey sitaarey, laal chadi maidaan, Tum jo mil gaye, O meri shaahey, Sau baar janam lengey, Tum mujhey yoon bhula, Tumney mujhey dekha, Terey merey sapney, Tumny pukaara hum chaley aay
Name a situation/mood and Rafi’s song will be there on the top.
Swami
Ofcourse praise from one artist to another matters a great deal. It is praise coming from knowledgeable individuals in music. If one wants to throw away these statements and not pay attention to them, then that’s one’s own wish, but they certainly are a key aspect in differentiating and terming greatness. It’s not about just saying good things, or saying things for the sake of mentioning them, in that case, such statements should not have been made at all, interviews should not be conducted, and so forth. Putting forward an argument that “it doesn’t matter what one artist says about another artist” is total nonsense.
The arguments of these intruders are very flawed and at the same time contradict one another so much that they end up being pieces of comedy. For example, I would agree if an individual says that Manna had talent, which he did, but to go overboard and say he could adapt himself to more genres than Rafi is hilarious, and diminishes any sort of credibility that individual has.
Satyansh:
You are correct-I was counting “classical†as one single genre. If I have to break it up, I have to break up other genres like “Western†as well. Even if I break up classical, I would maintain Rafi is better in handling slower layas because of his steadier voice. Manna’s focus was in handling complex notes, Rafi’s strength was in handling the melody and alaap. Rafi’s alaap before several songs is exemplary, it does not sound weak nor hollow.
Rafi being a disciple of Kirana gharana, was ahead in Thumris and Bhajans. Now, you may not count Thumris and Ghazals as pure classical, but Manna simply could not handle the depth of a song like “Aye na balam†(Shabab).
Even outside classical, Manna’s weakness in general was in Vilambit laya based songs. Take “Aye mere pyare watanâ€. The song itself is great, but his voice in the antara is weak and quivering. It sounds feminine when it strives to render expressions. I doubt had it not been for the Salil-Rafi feud, the song would have landed in Manna’s lap!
Both Manna and Rafi attempted to sing Bengali Nazrul Geets (composed by bengali poet Nazrul Islam). Despite the language barriers, Rafi’s album was way more popular and accepted. Bear in mind that Rafi was at the sunset of his career when he delivered those.
Abhishek ji, Your post 1588 addressed to me.
O K if you call rajesh khanna and sachin tendulkar as superhuman, what do you call Thyagaraja swami, as I have mentioned in my post. What words can you use for people who performed great acts, as you say pouring rain from clouds etc.
Satyansh,
A cassette I had ,of Chori Chorni and Barsaat in 80’s had both Rafi songs.I am able to find those for you on youtube.
The two songs of Rafi in Chori Chori are
1) Tu Arbo Ka Heer Pher ,duet with Lata picturised on Bhagwan da.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gbUal_mrFI
2) All line Clear picturised on Johnny Walker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zyHilPdqFw
If the above links don’t work for you, my apologies.
Now coming to the topic there is no doubt in my mind (and also backed by some real data) that Rafi was the top playback singer right from late forties.He had lot of albums all by himself (in the capacity of male playback) and there were also many where he was one of the playbacks. That trend continued at almost all times in his career. Besides other factors ,generally speaking when the gap between Rafi and his nearest competition was large you will find more Rafi only albums in vogue and when that gap closed, you will see multiple voices. I agree that this gap was narrower in early fifties and greater in late fifties. Nonetheless Rafi was leading at both periods in time. late forties /early to mid fifties Rafi was essentially filling in two main roles, either as a solo/lead playback singer some blockbusters or a specialist singer in some other.Baiju Bawra fits into former category and a Barsaat or Awara fits in the later category. Rafi seemed to be comfortable with this kind of trend throughout his career. He primarily appears to a hardworking artist with a supreme motivation towards work rather than to be someone examining the number and type of songs he gets called for, in a venture. A case in point is Raj Kapoors Sangam in 1964, Rafi chimed in for a special song for Rajendra Kumar while Mukesh sang in few great songs for main lead Mukesh. Or a Mera Naam Joker.
I daresay that even if we take into account the top songs (a little subjective term), Rafi’s contribution and influence from 1948 to 1956 was far more than any other singer male playback singer although I respectfully reiterate that others singers most notably Mukesh and Talat had their own niche.
Thanks
Naveen
Excellent posts Sudip, keep it up, keep on replying to, and tear apart, the hilarious comments of certain individuals on this site. Naveen, wonderful posts as well, Rafi was indeed the top singer from the late forties-early fifties.
Time and time again, people come to this site writing down their “fantasy” claims in an attempt to assert that as the truth. In reality, what they claim is so very far from the truth, that it becomes a comedy act. Statements like “Manna Dey could handle more genres better than Rafi” or “Kishore was as good as Rafi” and so forth, should not be taken seriously, and in turn these people who make such fantasy claims should not be taken seriously either. The cycle keeps on repeating itself, the only difference is that it comes from different people.
Meaningful discussions which make sense, and which we used to have are missing, and instead we are mostly just seeing replies to nonsense claims by certain people. Hopefully the days of meaningful and knowledgable discussions will make its way back. Thank goodness for individuals such as Haldar-ji, XXX-ji, Singh-ji, Sudip-ji, Dhaniram-ji, Cherian-ji, Korti-ji, Rafifan-ji, HV Gurumurthy-ji, Binu-ji, Ashish-ji, Manish Kumar-ji, Hussein Sheikh-ji, Sanjay-ji, Naveen-ji, Anmol Singh-ji and many others (pardon me if I have missed any names) who have stayed here and posted comments despite the meaningless posts (from certain people/individuals) and discussions that are taking place.
Everyone has the right to an opinion, but when that opinion crosses the ‘nonsense’ line, it just becomes a good laugh. A great discussion involves opinions that make sense, not illogical claims. It’s a universal truth that Rafi is the greatest singer of all time, any attempt to prove otherwise will make one drown further.
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Mr. XXX,
OPN-Rafi was indeed an excellent combination. They were truly a combination made for eachother (just like Rafi with many other MD’s). I would put OPN among the top 5 when talking about Rafi’s best MD’s.
OPN expolited every inch of Rafi’s golden voice, the same as he did with Asha. Listen to for example “Phir miloge kabhi” a Rafi-Asha duet, and look at the way Rafi sang that song, no other singer could even dream of attempting such a composition. It is songs like these that make Rafi the best of the best. OPN’s tunes were also very difficult to sing, and required flexible voices, and he found the perfect medium through Rafi, Asha and Geeta. One wonders what he would have done with Lata, I am sure the results would have been electrifying.
I am listing down some (not all) personal favourites of the OPN-Rafi combo:
Aanchal mein saja le – PWDLH
Aap ke haseen rukh pe – BPBA
Mujhe dekh kar – EMEH
Diwana hua badal – Kashmir Ki Kali
Dil ki awaaz bhi sun – Humsaya
Phir miloge kabhi – YRPNA
Zulfon ko hatale – Sawan Ki Ghata
Gustakh nazar chehre se – Jaali Note
Pukarta chala hoon main – Mere Sanam
Tumhari mulaqat se – Mohabbat Zindagi Hai
Jawaniyan yeh mast – Tumsa Nahin Dekha
Tu hai mera prem devta – Kalpana
There is one Rafi-Asha duet that had shades of OPN, along with the stamp of that person who composed it, and that is “Zulfon ko aap yun” from Chandan Ka Palna composed by RDB. It is such a magnificent duet, with a beautiful melody.
Mr. XXX, how would you rate OPN vis a vis Dada Burman, Roshan, and Madan Mohan when it comes to who used Rafi better ?. In your opinion, does the Top 50 of OPN-Rafi match The Top 50 of SD-Rafi, MM-Rafi and Roshan-Rafi ?. I am mentioning “50” just as an example, in this case.
bose,
Awara’s another high pitched short song by Rafi is Zulm Sahe Bhari Janak Dulari.
thanks
rafi
Nice to see some Rafi sahab- Mannada comparison… These two are my favourites in HFM along with Talatsaab. Hope to see some good ‘subjective’ comparisons… (and please, not “the everyone is equally good, it’s all a matter of taste” ones).
To all (so-called) neutral bloggers:
I’m yet to come across a ‘neutral’ arts/sports/culture follower in my life. Everyone who goes deep into these realms find themselves drawn more to one (or more) personalities than the others. Even professionals (best of them included) are not exempt from these favouritisms. When someone states (with an air of superiority) here that he’s a true/neutral music follower, I take it with a pinch of salt (as do most of the ‘seen-it-all’ gentlemen here). Some of the ‘neutrals’ have already shown their true colors and some are bound to do so in a few days/weeks. To thrash Rafi wouldn’t make them appear ‘neutral’, but the agenda has to be implemeted all the same. What then? Accuse Rafians of being ‘partial’ and ‘subjective’ people who haven’t seen the ‘truth’ (that everyone is perfectly equal), call them ‘fanboys’ (as if it’s another name for criminals) and assorted stuff, forgetting conveniently that this is a great site developed by a Rafian for the Rafians.
Honestly, we (the fanboys!) can sound more ‘balanced’, ‘neutral’ or ‘objective’ than you all combined but we don’t want to cheat or fool ourselves.
Someone was challeging if Rafisahab has created any magic… He has, with each of his 5000+ songs.. It’s that magic that still attracts people round the globe (many of them can’t follow a word in Hindi) to him even after nearly 30 years of his departure from this world.
Naveen,
Thank you for compiling that list in Comment No. 1569. In the year 1956, you mentioned “Chori Chori Shankar Jaikrishen Manna,Rafi”. Could you please provide links to Rafi’s songs in Chori Chori? I can’t find them.
I do see your point and also Surajit’s in that the MDs did not exclusively depend on Rafi till a certain time period. You are taking into consideration the top movies. Surajit is saying take the top songs in those movies. It seems to me that you two only differ in the level of detail.
sudip_dat:
“…The assertion that Manna can handle more genres is so bizarre, that it does not even warrant a reply…”
You keep twisting words. I am not going to pursue this anymore since your response seems devious, misleading and evasive in nature. I corrected you earlier and in post 1545, I repeated “…Where did I say that he could handle more genres? I said “…Manna Dey is much better than Rafi at adapting his style to different genres…â€. Again conveniently twisting words, aren’t you?…”. However, you just don’t stop. Our statements are here for all to read and any neutral reader can interpret them. Try to understand what I am saying. I hope you are not intentionally twisting words.
“…I can also paste 5000 Rafi songs or tons of quotes from musicians here, but as I said, it is not worth a reply…”
I look at the practice of quoting MDs, singers, etc differently and I’ve mentioned about my take on singers/MDs praising each other numerous times. I can understand the context in which most of these statements are made. So many times the interviewer just wants to hear something good about their idol and these people give them what they want. I don’t attach much relevance to those statements. These singers are/were being humble individuals and praising each other. It’s no big deal. Every statement might be countered. That seems childish and I don’t want to get into that rut. The songs speak for themselves. The analysis can be carried out on the basis of the songs these singers sang. It’s strange how Rafi fans are so fixated with using quotes.
“…Manna and Rafi can only be compared in classical and qawaali genres; in every other genre Rafi is way ahead…”
Thank you for being so generous as to allowing “superhuman” Rafi be compared to Manna Dey in classical and qawaali genres :). You go on to make a ridiculous statement about Rafi being way ahead in all other genres without even answering my question as to what genre those songs I posted in Comment No.1545 fall under. I restated my questions again in Comment No. 1570. From your statement above, am I to understand that they are classical songs? lol. Do you understand Rafi’s limitations in semi-classical? I have heard “Ankhiyaan Sang Ankhiyaan Laagi Aaj” numerous times. I think Manna Dey’s semi-classical songs are of a much higher calibre. If Rafi’s rendering is “superhuman” according to you, I wonder what Manna Dey’s songs should be called. Then what about the Pandits’ and Ustads’. You might run out of species the way you are going :). Akash ji elaborates on this point in Comment No.1585.
I see a fallacy in your statements since you are missing a point and I will attempt to elaborate.
Do you also understand that a semi-classical rendering can be applied to many different genres and Manna Dey most likely excels Rafi in all of those genres? Think about this again “a semi-classical rendering can be applied to many different genres and Manna Dey most likely excels Rafi in all of those genres”. I say this because Manna Dey is better than Rafi in semi-classical/classical singing. I think you might eventually acknowledge this too. One problem as I see in your understanding is that you classify all these songs as being under the classical genre. They are undoubtedly semi-classical songs, but that type of singing is applied to many different genres (comedy, bhajan, philosophy, qawwalee, etc.) and you caught on to the example of the qawaali and included that above. With Manna Dey’s superiority in singing semi-classical/classical songs, any genre where a difficult semi-classical rendering is to be applied, Manna Dey would almost always be better than Rafi. That is why I believe Manna Dey is a superior singer than Rafi. Rafi will hold ground or even excel in songs which require a sweet voice to a nice tune with good range, but without intricate alaaps or sargam or any such complexities as in Manna Dey’s songs. Same is true for Kishore’s type of songs – there are songs that he would excel in because of his unique qualities and style. With Kishore another aspect is the “X”-factor he brings into his songs. Since Hindi film music has more of such songs that are popular, you see a lot more of Rafi, Kishore and the others. That does not make Rafi a better singer than Manna Dey. When I want to listen to more complicated renderings of Indian film music (sugam sangeet), I listen to Manna Dey. Even “O Duniya Ke Rakhwale” is not a complicated rendering. It is undoubtedly great and one of my favorite songs because of Rafi’s sweet voice and range, but it is not a complicated song as Manna Dey’s songs. It is hard to sing because of the combination of Rafi’s sweet voice and range, but if one starts “bhagwaan” on a lower key, even a lesser singer can sing that song. You cannot do that with most of Manna Dey’s songs. I put Ghantasala’s “Siva Sankari”, “Syamala Dandakam”, etc. in the same category as hard songs to sing. They are difficult songs to sing even in a persons natural range. I hope I am explaining myself clearly. I talk about my views on voice texture in Comment No.1583.
While you evaded my other questions, you completely overlooked this one 🙂 –
“…Finally, hear this version of Sonu’s “O Duniya Ke Rakhwale†– http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4mmXZWpTQs. I look forward to hearing your opinion. Did he hit the right notes?…”
Thanks for sharing other yodeling songs of Rafi. I appreciate that.
dear bose, (refer to your post 1580 and mine 1569)
I have always maintained the relationship between any two artists is more or less mutually beneficial.Same with OPN or Roshan with Rafi with any other artist. The point is that by the time these artists came into the forefront Rafi was already a well known name. Rafi was a singer of choice for stalwarts such Pt Husnlal and Bhagatram,Shamsundar et al. As early as 46-47,Rafi had a brush of initial success. Bringing scores of 48 and 49 into discussion was a case in point.Watan Ki Raah Pe was a big hit by Rafi on Dilip Kumar in superhit Shaheed in 1948. The music director was Ghulam Haider another big name of the time (there is a Lata story as well associated with this movie) .Non-filmi “Suno Suno A Duniyawalo Bapu” composed by Husnlal Bhagatram was said to be very popular leading Rafi to earn a medal from Nehru in 48-49.
Now without digressing further let me comment to your points:
1) You say Rafi’ Mela song is filmed on stranger. But let me tell you in parts you will also find Dilip lip syncing it towards the end. However it does not matter it was lip synced by Dilip or not what matters is that the song in question is a masterpiece. Rafi had the unique distinction of singing with ease and elan for hero,villain ,comedian (to borrow a phrase from Mannada) and in the case of this song , a beggar philosopher. The song Yeh Zindagi Ki Mele was the heart and soul ,the theme song of the movie. It is played in parts all over the movie. It captures the essence of the movie in the same way as Dekhi Zamani Ki Yari or Mere Jeevan Kora Kagaz does for their respective movies. This is in no way undermining the excellent songs of Mukesh and Shamshad in the same movie. I keep the complete picture before me. I am as much in love with Gaye Ja Geete Milan Ki ,or Jhoom Jhoom Ki Nacho Aaj or Dharti Ko Akash Pukar as I am with Yeh Zindagi ki Mela. I regard this as one of the best philosophical songs of Rafi. Hats off to Naushad and Rafi for coming up with this.
2) Awara had a wonderful song Naiya Tere Majhedar Hoshiyar Hoshiyar(can be loosely mapped to fisherman community) by Rafi . Manna had a duet and Mukesh (I think ) 2 solos and a duet. You see glass as half empty but I see it as half full. I don’t dispute Mukesh’s contributions here I want to bring home Rafi’s contributions and imminence beyond his home turf. The fact is that music-makers used to make it sure to bring Rafi on board in case special songs and situation. And isn’t that a great distinction.
3) For Andaz again I along with countless music fans cherish Yoon Tu Aapas Mein by Rafi and Lata as much as other great Mukesh solos. Andaz had Mukesh on Dilip and Rafi on Raj. It is sad that it took two decades for Naushad to team up with Mukesh again after Andaz. During the same time as Andaz you will find many great filmmakers and composers that Rafi worked for and others didn’t.How would we explain that. Husnlal Bhagatram had given Rafi to sing as many as 9 to 10 songs in a movie during that period.
4) In my post 1569, I want to make couple of additions.I was able to find that 1949 movie Badi Bahen by Husnlal Bhagatram had Rafi’s vocals (some great songs).1952 Nagina was by Shankar Jaikrishen and I could dig Rafi’s duet in there.So that takes Rafi’s total to 37 and SJ’s to 14. It is not just about counting movies. Movie making is a commercial enterprise where money is invested and returns are expected. You and I as a music lover may only see the art side of it . But the fact remains the core engine of this industry like any other centers around business. That as a male playback singer Rafi was called in to render his services much more than any other male artist in the similar capacity adequately proves that he was the most dominant playback singer from 1948 to 1956 among his contemporaries. That dominance vis-a-vis his contemporaries only increased in coming years.
5)Reference to Manna in your post was out of place. While Manna was sterotyped and didn’t get to carry the entire films on his shouders,Rafi’s case was different . He sang for the hero,villain or comedian or a stranger whether it was 1948 or 1958 or 1968 or 1980. If you watch the songs of Insaniyat by C Ramachandra,see how Rafi sings for Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Gope and/or Agha in the same movie Sometimes he would be the only male playback singer in a movie ,sometimes share credit with others. Manna despite his talent unfortunately got typecast.
In closing I want to reiterate that Rafi was the top singer right from late forties through the entire fifties. Towards late forties / the very early part of fifties Talat and Mukesh carved a unique niche for themselves and together with Rafi ruled the male playback scene. By early mid fifites Talat started losing his commercial relevance and never came back from it despite delivering an ocasional hit once in a long while .Mukesh continued to remain a major force in the playback singing till his demise
Thanks
Naveen
Sri Akash ji, Satyansh ji and other genuine – rafi and other music lovers,
What a pucca philosophical truth you have given. All are human and all have their own contributions. I do not know whether dhaniram ji would be able to run like a 6 year child, and if it is not so, then in the field of running, the child has to be accepted as greater. If you call the child pigmy, then nobody can answer anything. Because the child cannot answer anything despite his contribution and greatness in his own area. Regarding earlier allegations by dhaniram ji in a sister site, I have seen it in a detailed way – yoodleeyoo.com, it is a kishore kumar ji’s site and yes, lot of discussion about ghantasala vs rafi has emerged there too, but the discussion was mainly carried on by kishore kumar lovers (barring few of ghantasala fans) , in fact the discussion was initiated by kishore kumar lover only. Why myself and akash ji, were dragged unnecessarily into the other site is surprising (when we have not posted a single message there). Like dhaniram ji makes a statement – plan is going on to ………… rafi at any cost (I am purposefully not using the word which dhaniram ji has used for rafi due to my respect for rafi sahab) i am fully convinced that dhaniram ji has planned to drive away all the people at any cost who are not saying anything in favour of rafi. As surajit bose ji puts it in case of hurting views by Mr. haldar here, certainly such comments are not at all welcome on the part of a true rafi fan. Rafi ji is called as a fine human being with virtues, but sadly some of his fans ( I have used the word some here for who are claiming themselves to be rafi fans) are exactly the opposite. They have started making comments against all the singers whether in bollywood or other woods.
Satyansh ji,
I appreciate your bold, honest and frank views containing truth. I am quite fascinated by your write ups here as well on your website. The paras being put in by you are similar to some great write ups here in the previous 100’s of messages by some genuine rafi lovers having true music knowledge. I request you to continue to post your write ups here.
akashsaab post 1585,
i dont know wht rafisaab brings to u but for me rafisaab brings peace,joy, pathos n much more his voice has romanticism,tranquility,fun,pain,gratitude u name it n he had it. bringing someone to life or causing clouds to pour is not the only criteria to judge someone as superhuman.i thnk rajesh khanna was a superhuman coz to garner such a tremendous popularity wch ppl like us can only imagine is definitely superhuman thts y he was called a superstar..!!sachin tendulkar is a superhuman coz he bears so much of expectations n comes out a winner more often than not..!! all these ppl have not brought anyone back from dead but they bring much more they bring joy n despair they bring tears n smiles wch i feel is a super job in itself..!!
Imtiyaz sir,
i know it hurts but we cant just run away from the fact tht rafisaabs voice did deteriorate in the late 70s and i dont think it was about the tune of rdb or lp and i by no means have mentioned anywhere tht lp is 1000 times better than rdb pls dont quote me out of context. i was just pointing out to something wch i felt, if u listen to rafisaab of 60s n 70s u wud definitely feel a change in voice it cud well be bcoz of different recording standards but still in the 70s rafi under lp was much better than rafi under rdb….!!
Mr. Abhishek,
Sorry, I am completely disagree to your argument that Rafi Sahabs’ voice was deteriorating, even in late 70s. If you feel weekness in RDs products only means the problem is in RDs tunes and not in Rafi sahab voice. How he is superb in LPs tunes? It means, LP is thousand times better than RDB. We feel more sweetness in late 70s songs like; “Athra baras ki tu hone ko ayi re”, “Barbaade mohabbat ki duwa saath liye ja”, “Aaja teri yaad ayi”, “Mere dost kissa yeh kya hogaya”, etc. etc. So, please dont say that Rafi Sahabs voice was deteriorated, at any stage of his life.
Dhaniram ji,
Let us be practical and in our world dhaniram ji. Satyansh ji is fully correct when he uses the words that no body is superhuman or like that as some pure fanboys are quoting here. In fact, as satyansh ji puts it, all voices are fully humane and nothing more than that. And how could you say the word pigmies. How could you term other singers as pigmies when talat, mukesh, manna, kishore etc. were lot admired by many people and who continue to enjoy a good fan following till date. I cannot recall or imagine rafi ji creating any miracle so as keep him apart from other greats in bollywood and call them pigmies. If I say, when Thyagaraja swami sang, a dead person was brought back into life and the almighty himself appeared before him, & when tansen sang rain fell and fire broke out, then you can place them in an exalted category and different from others. In what way you can call others a pigmies and categorise rafi as different. Then what is rafi before the exalted soul, thyagaraja swami or musician tansen, Was he capable of delivering any such miracle with his voice and is there any such instance. Certainly certainly no and not possible. He was very much similarly placed with others in a human plane and talat, mukesh, manna dey, hemant kumar, kishore kumar etc. had their respective great contributions and calling them pigmies, certainly not acceptable.
singh saab – 1574
I am with you in your post addressed to dhaniram ji.
Dhaniram ji – 1577
Satyansh ji is right in one way. Manna dey imo was better placed to rafi in terms of control of notes. However, on balance the melody and voice strength was more powerful in the voice of rafi, which as such made him more attractive than manna dey. Regarding one’s greatness, Manna dey commenting on rafi or rafi commenting on ghantasala or manna commenting on kishore cannot be implied that one is greater than the other. Perhaps in some particular songs respective people might have a lead on others . But on balance, during the mid-50’s and upto late 60’s in my view and experience most people prefer rafi to others in bollywood.
1571
Your comment that music in 70’s does not appeal to you at all. How come it be, when there were many great songs in hindi during that period. Leave kishore as a top singer during that period, even rafi too was there. imo kishore occupies a key position after rafi from a majestic voice point of view as compared to others viz., talat etc. What will be your answer to my question if I say, mere sapno ki rani from aradhana had been a hit similar to kishore’s one, had rafi would have rendered it. Aadmi log woh din me rajesh khanna ki car ka dhool mathe may lagate the. The time was like that. Time sweeps anybody, however great he may be. If one assumes greatness in one period, another assumes in another time. The former one cannot be greater in the later period. That is the fact.
Dhaniram ji (in response to Comment No.1577),
Please call me just Satyansh. In one of your posts, I read when you went to school and I am much younger than you.
Your point about the type of actors/situations Manna Dey sang for has some substance and is well taken. I am aware that being a more mature singer Manna Dey was typecast and mention that on my website. I don’t give much importance to that perception though since what you say about “Laga Chunari Mein Daag” or other songs does NOT change the quality of those numbers. Manna Dey sang it in accordance with the way it was picturized – for example, he sang “Kasme Vaade” in a more simple manner. There are a lot of places where one could sense he intentionally did not make it complicated. Also, as far I remember (I might be wrong since I haven’t seen it in years) in the movie the story of “Laga Chunari Mein Daag” was that the actual singer did not show up and they had to ask Raj Kapoor to sing in his place. There is a difference between mockery of classical singing and semi-classical singing. The song is not a mockery of classical singing. Neither is “Ek Chatur Naar” – it is a jugalbandi between Mehmood (who is shown as a teacher) and Sunil Dutt (Kishore Kumar, who is also shown as a professional). This notion of actors/situation cannot be used to call Rafi number one at all. Please note the logical fallacies and lack of structure in the arguments presented by many Rafi-lovers on this forum. The criteria are not finalized and the comparison has already been going on in full steam. There is a funny saying in Punjabi – “Pind vasya nai, chor pehlan hi aa gaye”. I have noted down a bunch of criteria on my site and welcome you to add more and/or provide your input. I will wait to hear from sudip_dat on the genre he thinks these songs fall under and answer those and other questions viz-a-viz Rafi in those earlier posts of mine.
A lot of what you said about actors/situations is about perception and I would present to you my hypothesis – which you can very well disagree with. This can be ignored as a sidenote as it has very little to do with comparing these legends in my mind and there are obviously exceptions to this with a lot of examples on this forum. The level of songs that Manna Dey sang required a lot more training and talent. This training takes time and is associated with maturity by most people – in all probability thereby leading to mature actors singing these songs on screen. Also, I do not believe Rafi could have done justice to most of these songs, so Manna Dey was the obvious choice. People who were in their school/college days during Rafi’s time most likely identified with some of those actors on screen and therefore with Rafi’s voice and singing. Again a perception that changes with time. For example, how many people identify themselves with a character artist or an older person on screen today? It is likely that this was always the same, most people identifying themselves with the hero/heroine. Over a period of time, this image along with it’s associations (read singers et.al.) gets ingrained into the viewers mind. But to compare singers, you have to look at the songs, and that is where Manna Dey excels. In my opinion, somebody as talented as Kishore, who could scat his response to a sargam or do many of the genuinely unique things that Kishore did will possibly outlive many other singers and remembered for bringing in a freshness into the music scene. He is currently more accepted/popular in a vast age-group comprising of young teenagers to older people. While I do not associate popularity alone with quality – good or bad, I am saying this as an extension of the points I made earlier in response to your post. This might change as peoples perception changes along with the popular actors.
Coming back to Manna Dey, he did sing youthful songs for Shammi Kapoor, Rajesh Khanna, Raj Kapoor, etc. that I really like and believe to have shared in the past. As far as youthfulness goes, his songs “Sur Na Saje” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSQOUZAVdCc) and “Bhay Bhanjana” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrZvhmF85X8) don’t sound any less youthful to me than any of Rafi’s songs for Bharat Bhushan. They most certainly demonstrate Manna Dey’s prowess/superiority in semi-classical/classical over Rafi. Why did Rafi not sing these songs or “Ketaki Gulab Juhi” for Bharat Bhushan? Rafi was already established as the voice for Bharat Bhushan with hits earlier. In fact, in this movie, Rafi sings “Badi Der Bhayee” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvHwb8c8XBI) for an old, decrepit, dejected character (using your words here). Reversal of roles – eh!!! I attempted to explain above that what I consider important is not just who sang it on screen, but whether the song and picturization went well together. Rajesh Khanna reminds me of another mature song of Manna Dey – “Hasne Ki Chah Ne” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx6yPmqLlUY. Enjoy!!!
In your post, you mention “…na to kaarwan ki talash hai also has a man well past his middle age singing manna de’s part…”. Sure, but in my opinion and interactions this is not how most trained singers, musicians, music directors or people with an ear for music would look at it. If anything, Manna Dey is singing for an “ustad” and he has to put in that extra effort and his singing has to be more intricate. I am not sure if you understand the difference in quality of alaaps between Manna Dey and Rafi in the aforementioned qawwalee. As far as technicalities as concerned, could Rafi have sung all of Manna Dey’s songs? Voice is a different aspect. People like different voices for different songs. I might like Kishore, Manna Dey, Mukesh, Talat, Hemant, Rafi, etc. depending on the song. Further on the topic of voice, in classical singing the natural texture is highly encouraged. When some people practice the rendering of a raag, sometimes they adjust their texture to that of some singer because they remember a particular song the singer rendered in that raag. They are discouraged from doing that and asked to sing in their natural voice. When I say could Rafi have sung all of Manna Dey’s songs, I am talking about the intricacies of the songs that Manna Dey has sung. Every singer might have their own uniqueness. Surajit pointed out Talat’s qualities. Kishore’s qualities might have been pointed out by numerous people. Mukesh and the others have their own. Rafi’s defining qualities in my mind were his sweet voice and the ability to maintain that sweetness at a higher range. Rafi’s semi-classical renderings weren’t as good when compared to Manna Dey or Ghantasala (based on whatever little bit I have heard of him).
“…in one of his interviews he said in film singing only rafi and †i †could sing all types of songs…” – I haven’t read/heard Manna Dey saying that Rafi could sing any type of song in any interview, but I take your word for it. Both Manna Dey and Rafi praised each other and said the other was better. They were humble individuals and success did not get to their head. That is how it should be. Since music directors are quoted so extensively here in favor of Rafi, I am sure people must have read a number of music directors mention that Manna Dey could sing any of Rafi, Kishore, Talat or Mukesh’s songs; but it was not true the other way around. These quotes are not needed here though. Manna Dey’s songs speak for themselves. You have already said that “…having said that,if rafi could sing all the songs sung by all the singers,no other singer would be required…” and I agree with your statement. So, for me this topic is closed.
“…as far rafi is concerned,nobody had his range…” – People here just don’t stop talking about this weird notion of range. Please elaborate on the exact note that Rafi could reach that nobody else could. What exactly was his range and why do you say that nobody had his range? Mr.Khan had rightly refuted that in one of his earlier posts. If you don’t believe people with a different perspective, I would suggest you talk to a musician personally and find out for yourself.
“…when compared with rafi,they are pigmies…” – Another statement showing disdain for others. I object to this statement and disregard it for the inaccuracies contained therein. They are all legends in their own right. Depending on the criteria one looks at one could be better than the other. Based upon the criteria I consider important, I rate them differently. We could all have different subjective opinions. It does not make the others “pigmies” compared to Rafi.
Haldar,
Anil Cherian did not understand what you were saying, but I did. And yet you conveniently skipped my post.
My statement was that it doesn’t matter why Talat was able to sing like that. Biswas and some of the other MDs liked that specific effect and that is why they chose Talat instead of other singers in the early ’50’s.
You are correct that in the 1960’s, the “vibrato” in Talat’s voice became “Tremolo” (another excuse for you to look up the dictionary – :-)) and he became uncomfortable to listen to.
Dhani Ram,
We can always agree to disagree, but I am wondering what we are disagreeing on.
I already said that I am not comparing Talat’s capabilities overall vs. Rafi. My point is that nobody could’ve brought the same effects as Talat.
Is that what you are disagreeing with ?
Naveen,
Although I agree about Roshan tagging on to Rafi for getting a new lease of life, OPN-Rafi was a mutually benefiting combination from the get-go. In both cases, however, Rafi also benefitted tremendously as his range was expanded significantly.
Coming back to the list you have provided, you are just counting the movies for which Rafi sang. That doesn’t give the whole picture.
For eg., in Barsaat, Mukesh also sang the hit duet “Chod gaye balam” along with “Patli kamar hai”.
Similarly, in “Andaz”, Mukesh got all the evergreen songs – “Jhoom jhoom ke nacho aaj”, “Toote na dil toote na”, “Tu kahe agar”, “Hum aaj kahin dil kho baithe” while Rafi got just the duet for RK “Yun to aapas mein bigadthe hain”. It’s clear who got the best deal between Mukesh and Rafi.
Again, you have included Rafi in Mela. It’s clear that Mukesh got the bulk of the songs (picturized on Dilip Kumar) – including “Gaeja geet milan ke”, while Rafi got the one song picturized on a stranger. Remember this is similar to what later happened to Manna Dey.
You have mentioned “Awara”, but I don’t see Rafi singing here. Manna Dey sang the dream sequence song, while Mukesh sang the rest.
In the same list you have provided, look at the films from 1952 to 1954. you will see that, except for Naushad and later OPN, most of the others went for Talat or Mukesh, some went for Kishore, Manna, Hemant etc. None of them depended exclusively on Rafi. And that was precisely my point.
From 1957 onwards, even those MDs started to move towards Rafi. That’s precisely when Rafi became the dominant singer.
Satyansh:
The assertion that Manna can handle more genres is so bizarre, that it does not even warrant a reply. If any one in this forum and the whole wide world (Rafi fans and everyone else included) agrees with you I will bother going back and reviewing the songs. I can also paste 5000 Rafi songs or tons of quotes from musicians here, but as I said, it is not worth a reply.
I am not sure if you are a Bengali or can read Bengali. The last time Manna talked publicly about the “greatest male singer ever†(NOT “one of the greatest singersâ€) was in the obituary for Naushad in the renowned Bengali daily Anandabazar Patrika. A translated version of that obituary is here (pls read the conclusion):
http://www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=813233
If you suspect this is a handiwork of Rafians, here is the original untranslated version:
http://www.anandabazar.com/archive/1060513/13nibon.htm
Being a fan of both Manna and Rafi, let me now voice my opinion. Manna and Rafi can only be compared in classical and qawaali genres; in every other genre Rafi is way ahead. In classical songs, Manna was more adept in handling drut laya based taans. Rafi sounded a bit “conscious” in these classical songs (which I discussed with Surajit before), though I must say Rafi completely bowled me over with his ‘Aankhiyan sang’ from Bada Aadmi. The amount of ecstasy that Rafi injects into this song is ‘superhuman’ (again do not take it in literal sense)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Usi6sJrGszE
Rafi was more adept in slow Vilambit laya based songs, because he had a steadier, controlled voice that did not quiver (note in those days they did not have technology to filter these out)
Rafi’s other yodeling based songs I know of are, “Keno Saban Daein” (a Punjabi duet with Asha) and “Humse Rippy Tippy ho gayi” (Rafi and Geeta Dutt in Agra Road, 1957).
i cant beleive that this article has garnered 1500+ posts as most of the posts r not related to this article and are debating on some other topic.
i realized a thing listening to the songs of 70s(late 70s) that rafisaabs voice had deteriorated(being a rafi lover it hurts me to write this but its true) what amuses me more is during the late 70s whnever rafi sang for rdb rafisaab wud sound 60% of his 60s voice amazingly during the same period whn he wud record for lp or any other md he wud sound 80% of his 60s voice. listen to songs like ‘jaanu meri jaan’ ,’yamma yamma’ etc the way rafisaab is sidelined is saddening n bemusing. and again in songs like ‘ek raasta do rahi’,’hum premi prem karna jaane’ etc the way rafisaab comes out the better of two is astounding.something to do with the way he was recorded or was it a result of some foregone bias??
satyanshji
a comparison between manna de and rafi is always a likely occurrence.manna de himself has made this comparison.in one of his interviews he said in film singing only rafi and ” i ” could sing all types of songs. but in that interview,he also said that rafi was far ahead of him.manna de admitted his overall failure in achieving what some others did,esp rafi.manna de couldn’t carry a single film on his shoulders was a singer of occasional songs.
i hold manna de in very high esteem.but then when i look for reasons that kept manna de from being rafi’s equal i find that he lacked certain virtues.look at most of the actors and situations for which his voice was thought fit.in kasme wade,it is old,decrepit,dejected persona.in lad gaya paapi bicchua,it is a tribal past his prime,in hum bhi hain tum bhi ho,it is a rough dacoit with a forbidding exterior(played by pran in jis desh mein ganga behti hai.the sweeter part is sung by mukesh),in laaga chunri mein daag,it is raj kapoor disguised as a very old classical singer( in the film itself,the song is actually a mockery of classical style of singing.as a matter of fact many of manna de’s songs,including ik chatur naar picturised on mahmood are a mockery of classical singing ),ai meiri zohra zabeen,is sung on screen by an old husband. i can go on and on. na to kaarwan ki talash hai also has a man well past his middle age singing manna de’s part whereas rafi’s is by youthful hero.when rafi sings the voice is dulcet and flowery.
i have no intention of giving offence to anybody or of speaking in derogatry terms about as great a singer as manna de who himself is a great rafi fan.but as we are looking for reasons that catapulted rafi to such heights and kept manna de down.one important reason which raj kapoor discovered after the film barsaat and began to prefer mukesh to manna in spite of the latter’s sterling performance in that movie was that manna lacked a dulcet voice which quality mukesh had in abundance.as far rafi is concerned,nobody had his range,mellifluousness,contol and ease in singing.for this reason,though i have utmost regard for all other singers who are great in their own right yet when compared with rafi,they are pigmies.
dhaniramji namaskar. ref post 1562. the song ‘raha gardishon mein hurdum mere ishq ka sitara is not from (arzoo) as told by you but from “DO BADAN” a manoj kumar, asha parekh and simmi garewal starrer.
Here are some of the songs (I believe) from the later stages of the ‘baadshah’s’ life where he sounds sweet and strong:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7RfTkB6gzs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSz_dAA0Wxs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNLSkQRgnBY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twx4lveyVKc
1561 – Dhaniram ji,
It is no matter of fury or changing track from sound reasoning.
There may be michief makers in any community be it ghantasala or rafi or others. But did I or Sri Akash ji, were involved in either way (in sister site too ) in such category. Certainly no. Then i do not understand why I are you directing your ire towards us. Is it correct on your part to do so. I had only replied to your posts from a factual point of view and not as a person to be categorised as above. And you certainly agree and appreciate that (along with other genuine music lovers) your replies and opinion to our views, based on keeping in mind the aforesaid category people’s statements, are certainly not in true spirit. You cannot make comment against Mr. A i, keeping in mind Mr. C. Hope you got the point.
Just a quick note to correct Dhani Ram,s message numberd 1562 dated 5th Feb. 2009……
The song ” RAHA GARDISHON MEN HAR-DAM; MERE ISHQ KA SITARA…” is from the film DO BADAN *ing Manoj Kumar, Asha Parekh and Pran. Its not from the film AARZOO which cast Rajendra Kumar, Sadhana and Mehmood.
Thanks for the links Sudipji, the voice quality is very good, much better than the youtube clips. Frankly, I’m not at all surprised at Rafisahab’s yodelling.. infact I think Rafisahab can no longer surprise me.. having listened to him in all the hues and colors, I don’t believe there is anything he can’t do with that voice…
Coming to yodelling, I agree with you that it’s not a big deal for singers…I’ve listened to scores of them (both professionals and stage singers).. SPB sir is a master at it (his fans don’t make a big hue and cry abt. it, though). What makes KK’s yodelling special (apart from the fact that RDB structured them very well) is the contrast- from that heavy, rough voice to the feminine.
surajit bose
let us agree to disagree sometimes.it is aesthetically and intellectually rewarding to have a clash of wits with a knowledgeable adversary(only metaphorically) like you.we can’t eschew all our biases altogether and my participation on this forum and rafi versus kishore forum has taught me that love of music entails very fierce loyalties.if we are devoted to a particular singer or a particular style of singing,we turn a deaf ear to others. i have no hesitation to admit that hindi film music of 70s onwards doesn’t appeal to me at all.i find it simply intolerable.and since kishore was the ace singer of the period,i am most antipathetic to him.talat,mukesh,manna de,hemant can all share honoursrs with rafi.they all have their distinct style of singing and have given us wonderful songs.i can spend days together listening to any of them.still i am convinced beyond any iota of doubt that rafi was far,far ahead of them all.
sudip_dat:
“…I must admit Kishore is the master of the art, but Rafi does it too. It is almost kiddish and naive to expect that Rafi or for that matter any singer of repute, cannot do this…And some of them were recorded even before KK came into limelight…”
Thanks for sharing these numbers. The 2 songs you have given are the most well known examples of Rafi yodeling. I was hoping for something more from knowledgeable Rafi fans and you do mention that there are more that you cannot trace online. Even the names of rare songs with Rafi yodeling would be enough. I can try to find the original cassettes/CDs once I know the name of the song and movie. I have a veryy old personal tape (handed down) of Rafi which if I remember correctly also has him yodeling, but I haven’t had a player to play it for years :). I don’t need to pursue this point any more, since you have already admitted to what I was getting at. I don’t give yodeling alone that much importance. It is the context in which Kishore did it that made it cool and purposeful. If you are interested in knowing certain nuances of why, I might be happy to elaborate. Maybe not, for I have seen people here who say they already know it if one tries to tell them something (I won’t take names but there are comments you can read for yourself) or they just don’t acknowledge or answer questions correctly. Just to be clear, I didn’t state that Rafi or for that matter any singer of repute could not do this. I even mention what we discussed here about yodeling on my site at http://satyansh.com/smf/index.php?topic=15.0. About Kishore not being in the limelight, I guess you mean he wasn’t the undisputed number one at that time – I don’t attach any relevance to that comment in this context.
“…can you reconcile #1 and #2 and tell me what you implied?…”
I already did that … more than once. You will have to read my prior posts again. I am doing this simply because if you read those posts again, I hope that you might realize what I have been saying all along. Also, in post no. 1545 I had said “…Please answer my questions instead of posting counter-questions…”. I suspected you would do this. You had done this a couple of times earlier too :). We can only attempt to understand patterns from peoples’ posts and to me you seem like a reasonable person. So, you don’t need to reply to these statements. Think through this yourself. We can simply exchange views over email (you will find my email address on my website if you care).
“…It is your problem that you seek literary “truism†in the expression-â€superhumanâ€. Maybe I should dig up every occurrence of “superhuman†on the web and associate them with Spiderman or Batman…”
Spiderman … Batman – lol – your comment seems irrelevant and is again deviating from the core – the issue is about some people here making false statements and creating a bloated view of Rafi in the process. I am attempting to correct those misplaced notions just like many others here are attempting (have attempted) to do. So far, you have agreed with almost all the points I have made. You just take time to come around. It might be a defensive reaction and that is fine. I would like to state again – don’t get the impression that I don’t like Rafi. I enjoy listening to him a lot and you might be surprised at some interesting stories I can share if (it’s a big IF) we get to that point. For now, it is about presenting a neutral view and to challenge the constant derision and belittling of other respectable personalities.
The only 2 items that I would like your input on are the following statements I made in Comment No. 1545:
“…Let me know what songs Rafi has in this genre of this calibre. Note that I am not implying that he does not have any. Merely waiting to see what you think compares to these songs and genre. Please answer my questions instead of posting counter-questions :)…”
“…Finally, hear this version of Sonu’s “O Duniya Ke Rakhwale†– http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4mmXZWpTQs. I look forward to hearing your opinion. Did he hit the right notes?…”
I’d like to state again there is no implied meaning to my questions. It is my belief that any reasonable person will find a lot of clarifications in the process of answering these questions. The objective is to let people arrive at their own conclusions by doing due diligence.
Singh ji,
Thank you for your kind words. I’d love to exchange views about songs with neutral people on this forum. Even if a person has a different view, we can respectfully debate and/or agree to disagree.
Surajit,
Your argument is logical and I agree with the points you made in your posts viz-a-viz Talat/Rafi. You had earlier differentiated between the different styles of singing of Talat and Rafi and your current posts as I understand are an elaboration of what you had stated earlier. Thank you for presenting your views in such a neutral manner.
Dear Bose
(Refer to following excerpt of your 1553)
Quote
It was OPN first with “Aar Paar†and “Mr. and Mrs. ‘55″ in 1954-1955, then SDB with “Pyaasa†and “Nau do gyarah†in 1957, and finally Roshan who joined the Rafi camp and made him the top singer. So I maintain that Rafi was the top singer only from 1957.
Do not just count the volume of songs. Look at the different MDs during the time period, and which singer got their best compositions.
UnQuote
You are again factually off the mark(which I will prove later in the post). OPN and SDB contributed to Rafi’s success as much as he contributed to theirs. OPN sure gave Rafi a genre. Roshan’s sagging career was resurrected by Rafi in Barsaat Ki Raat and onwards. Roshan may have benefited more with partnering with Rafi and not the other way around. Nonethess no one can dispute the valuable role that these stalwarts played in each others success.It is indeed a moot point to go beyond on this track. To say which composition is the best is quite subjective. When Shankar Jaikrishen went to already established Rafi for a song in Barsaat they had known that Rafi was the right singer for it. So don’t give me these rants that “Patli Kamar Hae” was a prized composition , and Mein Zindagi Mae Hardam was not.Or Mera Jhoota was superior to Ramaya Vasta . These are plain distractions and shying away from facts.
You maintain that Rafi reached the top only around 1957. Here is how I bust that myth. I have taken top 10 hit movies from 1950 to 1956 , top 7 and top 8 from 48 and 49 respectively. There is never more accurate method to arrive at truth than to see some real data on the strength of which we could take the debate further than just indulging in mere rhetoric. This sample is restricted to only top movies but we could anytime increase the sample space and yet see the similar results. I understand that I went through the first pass only and some more info needs to be filled in. Excuse me for that.
Few things to note.
1) I have confined my singer analysis to Talat,Kishore,Rafi,Mukesh,Manna and Hemant only. I have excluded the likes of Durrani,Ustad Ali Akbar,Khan Mastana et al and also excluded female singers.
2) In many C Ramachandra movies he has done the playback himself.I have excluded him. So Albela would be Rafi. But for Hemant I show him both as singer and composer since he is employed more often as a singer by other composers too.Anil B as a singer in his own films is excluded as a singer.
3) If a film does not have a prominent male voice (or I didn’t get that from my notes, I have left the singer as – (dash). feel free to fill that in thereby increasing the accuracy of the analysis. I will appreciate that.
1948 Composer(s) Prominent Male Singers
1 Shaheed Ghulam Haider Rafi
2 Chandralekha – –
3 Pyar Ki Jeet Husnlal Bhagatram Rafi
4 Mela Naushad Mukesh,Rafi
5 Ziddi Khemchand Prakash Kishore
6 Nadiya Ke Paar C Ramachandra C Ramachandra/Rafi
7 Suhaag Raat Snehal Bhatkar –
1949
1 Barsaat Shankar Jaikrishen Mukesh,Rafi
2 Andaz Naushad Mukesh,Rafi
3 Mahal Khemchand Parakash –
4 Dillagi Naushad Rafi
5 Shabnam Sachin Dev Burman –
6 Badi Bahen Husanlal Bhagatram –
7 Patanga C Ramachandra –
8 Dulari Naushad Rafi
1950
1 Samadhi C Ramachandra –
2 Babul Naushad Talat
3 Dastaan Naushad Rafi
4 Jogan Bulo C. Rani Talat
5 Har Har Mahdev – –
6 Sangram C Ramachandra –
7 Beqasoor Anil Biswas Mukesh,Rafi
8 Sargam C Ramachndra Rafi
9 Arzoo Anil Biswas Talat
10 Aankhen Madan Mohan Mukesh,Rafi
1951
1 Awaara Shankar Jaikrishen Mukesh,Rafi
2 Baazi S D Burman Kishore
3 Albela C Ramachandra Rafi
4 Deedar Naushad Rafi
5 Jadoo Naushad –
6 Bahaar S D Burman Talat
7 Anand Math Hemant Kumar Hemant Kumar
8 Baadal Shankar Jaikrishen Mukesh
9 Hum Log Roshan Mukesh
10 Afsana Husnlan Bhagatram Rafi/Mukesh
1952
1 Aan Naushad Rafi
2 Baiju Bawra Naushad Rafi
3 Jaal S D Burman Hemant/Kishore
4 Daag Shankar Jaikrsihen Talat
5 Anhonee Roshan Talat
6 Maa S K Pal Kishore/Manna
7 Sangdil Sajjad Hussein Talat
8 Nagina – –
9 Bewafa A R Qureshi Talat
10 Aandhiyan Ustad Ali Akbar Khan –
1953
1 Anarkali C Ramachandra Hemant
2 Ladki Dhani Ram/Sudarshan Kishore
3 Do Bigha Zameen Salil Chaudary Manna,Rafi
4 Parineeta Arun Kumar Nukherji Manna,Kishore
5 Footpath Khayyam/Timir Baran Talat
6 Jhamela C Ramachadra –
7 Shikast Shankar Jaikrishan Talat
8 Humsafar Ali Akbar Khan Talat
9 Aah Shankar Jaikrishan Mukesh
10 Raahi Anil Biswas Hemant
1954
1 Nagin Hemant Kumar Hemant
2 Nastik C Ramachandra Hemant
3 Taxi Driver S D Burman Talat, Kishore
4 Mirza Ghalib Ghulam Mohd Talat, Rafi
5 Aar Paar O P Nayyar Rafi
6 Jagriti Hemant Kumar Rafi
7 Shart Hemant Kumar Hemant Kumar
8 Boot Polish Shankar Jaikrishen Manna,Rafi
9 Amar Naushad Rafi
10 Adhikar Avinash Vyas Kishore
1955
1 Shree 420 Shankar Jaikrishen Mukesh,Rafi,Manna
2 Azaad C Ramachandra C Ramachandra
3 Jhanak Jhanak Payal Baje Vasant Desai Manna/Hemant
4 Udan Khatola Naushad Rafi
5 Mr & Mrs 55 O P Nayyar Rafi
6 Insaaniyat C Ramachandra Rafi,Talat,Manna
7 Munimji S D Burman Kishore
8 Seema Shankar JaiKrishen Rafi,Manna
9 Baradari Naashad Rafi,Talat
10 Devdas S D Burman Talat,Rafi
1956
1 CID O P Nayyar Rafi
2 Ek Hi Raasta Hemant Hemant
3 Chori Chori Shankar Jaikrishen Manna,Rafi
4 Basant Bahar Shankar Jaikrishen Rafi,Manna
5 New Delhi Shankar Jaikrishen Kishore
6 Rajhath Shankar Jaikrishan Rafi/Mukesh/Manna
7 Bhai Bhai Madan Mohan Kishore
8 Toofan Aur Diya Vasant Desai Manna
9 Funtoosh S D Burman Kishore
10 Inspector Hemant Hemant
NOW THE BOTTOMLINE and some notes
Out of 75 top movies
Bottomline for male singers (1948 to 1956) :
1) Rafi features in as many as 35.
2) Talat features in as many as 16.
3) Mukesh features in 12
4) Kishore features in 12
5) Hemant features in 10
Bottomline for composers (1948 to 1956)
1) Shankar Jaikrishen 13 (exclude 56 and Naushad is at the top)
2) Naushad 12
3) C Ramachandra 11
4) Hemant Kumar 6
5) S D Burman 5
6) Husnlal Bhagatram 3 (used Rafi in 2 films)
7) Anil Biswas 3 (used Rafi in 1 film)
6) Roshan 2
8) Salil Chaudary 1 (used Rafi’s services along with Manna’s in that one)
Based on the above, it is abundantly clear that Rafi led the pack.His nearest rival Talat has less than half as many box office hits. Even if (to be fair to Talat), we only consider 1950 to 1955 ,Rafi’s number becomes (35-12 = 23) which is above 30% more than Talat in the same period. Since this gap narrows it might be leading you to the misconceptions and the belief that Talat sold more than Rafi.
The other myth that Anil Biswas was someone calling the shots also rests in peace.He only has 3 notable “commercially somewhat successful” assignments in this period. He may be a pioneer and all , but in the period in question is none but a former great. He was commercially relevant before that. So his using or not using someone doesn’t matter at all. (It didn’t matter to the people then and it doesn’t matter now). Ironically you see him using Rafi in one of the three movies listed.
Ditto Salil Chaudary.He has one movie and in there you find Rafi’s contribution too.Whatever he may or may not have said may only make juicy bedtime stories. Roshan, Madan Mohan,OPN et al were bit players in that period (well OP was emerging strong after 1954). That leaves an honorable exception of C Ramachandra. Yes he was among the top 3 composers of that time, a force to reckon with.In many of his movies he employed himself as the lead singer although he did use many other singers including Rafi. The other two top composers of the time SJ and Naushad made remarkable use of Rafi. Come to think of it that SJ (and RK camp) more often than not had an outstanding atmospheric /situational song by Rafi even though Mukesh had established himself as the near permanent voice of Raj Kapoor. The trend continued till their almost last venture together (Mera Naan Joker).
Now based on what do you propagate a lie that Rafi only became top singer from 1957 onwards. The only thing that changed in second half of fifties and beyond is that the gap between his (Rafi’s) accomplishments/assignments with that of his nearest competition widened considerably.
Thanks
Naveen
Here’s the youngster who’s won VOI contest (and later had a tragic end) singing ‘na jaa…’.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9n6hvq1vBM
He’s done a nice job, on-scale most of the time and a pleasant voice.. however he’s ended up where every one usually ends up when rendering a Rafisahab song.. far from the original.. the life, the effervescence, the punch, the feel, the clarity of the original is a bit too much for him (or anyone for that matter) to reproduce.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9n6hvq1vBM
And here the voice goes playfully romantic (All LP compositions):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU6hRjbqQ9s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEGaw48Td2c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoNModLC_GE
Here are some melancholic songs by the master (most of them pointed out by Dhaniram sir):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT2shneuin0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llh663T2txs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jmC8oNdhFM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJMWQ0CiB3A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqJ5iCSWLVk
What singing! How that voice (not just the singing) gets drenched in melancholy (as explained by Dhaniram sir)!
Mr. Myk,
Indeed Rafi’s repertoire of songs simply kills, none other comes close, however i would admit any day that Talat,Manna,Kishore,Mukesh and Hemant all of them were great great singers, i enjoy all of them, but one needs to look at what Rafi did in 50s and 60s,which made him tallest of all, specifically from 1957-69, with the composers like Ravi,Roshan,Naushad,Dada,S-J,OPN and countless others, there are songs of every possible playback genre and mood.
By the way, you have made an interesting point, indeed sd-rd-Rafi combo comes close to the shankar-jaikishan-Rafi combo, by the way, why you have taken sd-rd together as one composing entity for Rafi?
Well,in past few days, I met many young Rafi fans of my age, most of them believe that Rafi’s best came through OP Nayyar Sahab followed by Dada Burman, what do you think of OPN-Rafi combo? would you like to elaborate your views on the OPN-Rafi combo?
ref post 1558:
mr cherian, I am afraid to say that you haven’t got the chandra-talat analogy. Someone who knows a lot about these two greats would be able to figure out what I’m talking about. I won’t say anything more because it’s too painful. But I just want to point out that talat’s vibrato — oh how I love the term, now that I understand it — became more and more pronounced in his later years, and that’s one of the reasons why he had to drop out.
Here is Manna Dey paying an awesome tribute to Rafi-saab. Everything he says is the absolute universal truth, no one can deny it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6wnwwOJJVw
Mr. XXX, SJ-Rafi was one of the greatest composer-singer combo’s in the history of film music. You had here not just one, but two complete composers joining forces with the Badshah to create timeless music. The variety and melody has no equal (as you mentioned). They have created all types of songs for every possible mood. I would say that the only duo that could come close to S-J was the father-son duo of SDB-RDB. SD-RD-Rafi is another glorious chapter in HFM.
The association of Rafi with various MD’s such as S-J, SDB, MM, Roshan, Naushad, OPN, Chitragupta, RD, L-P etc. is so rich that it is a repertoire any singer would kill to have.
i may add two more sad songs of rafi to my previous post on the theme:
1 mili khak mein mohabbat jala dil ka aashiana (chaudhavin ka chand )
2 raha gardishon mein har dum meire ishq ka sitaara (aarzoo )
the question of range and pitch has come up repeatedly in the course of the debate. a great quality of rafi’s voice is that it doesn’t lose its delicacy,softness and verve at any pitch.
the plenitude of rafi’s songs is like our universe in which wherever you look you find stars. now not many may have heard the melodious duet of asha and rafi:
chhan chhan karti daulat bole safe tijori tor de
singh sahib and akashji
fury is no substitute for solid facts and sound reasoning.
not only on this forum,but on a sister forum titled rafi versus kishore, some people mischievously dragged in ghantasala to drag down rafi sahib. the debate on that forum was between the relative merits of rafi and kishore,both bollywood singers. what had ghantasalaji to do there.but no space is sacrosanct for mischief mongers. on that forum also ghantasala was pitted against rafi and,mind you,not kishore. it seems to me that the sole purpose of some people is to demolish rafi at any cost. if the protagonists of rafi say something in defence of rafi on the forum dedicated to rafi,they become victims of unwarranted fury.
Agree partly with both Singhji and Mykji on Rafisahab’s voice in the later stages of his career.
Rafisahab’s voice in the ’70s wasn’t consistently as sweet as it was earlier on. However he sounded good in ‘kitna pyaara waada…’, didn’t he? The voice sounds strained in some songs during the ‘wave’ (’73-’76), the reasons could be many-fold like Confidence (as rightly mentioned by Sudipji), Indecision, mediocre direction, diminishing volume of output etc.
Personally, the voice was most inconsistent towards the final stages of the farishta’s life in this world (after he tided over the wave). He sounded extra-ordinarily good in many songs, like ‘dheere chal zara..’, ‘simti hui gadiyaan….’, ‘kahin ek masoom…’ ‘pyar hai ek nishan….’ etc. while in many others he sounded a bit like one of his own clones. For instance in a song that goes ‘gaaon mei peepal..’ the voice was Mahendra Kapoor like; it was a little bit like Shabbir Kumar in ‘mere desh premiyo..’ and Anwarish in some others.
Having said this, I (like Mykji) am fond of ‘the’ voice across all those decades and agree with Mykji that it has its own charm at each stage.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cBdpNRh9tgA
Dhaniram sir, Mykji, XXXji:
Nice to see you all back, had been missing you much.
Haldar sir:
I think I got your Chandra allegory. I understand the googly was Chandra’s natural (and stock) delivery and it was what made him famous.
These ‘falsettos’, ‘head voice’, ‘baritone’ et al aren’t big deals at all. These are commonly used (technical) terms in Western classical stuff. Westerners like to have categorisation and standardisation in eveything, hence all these terms. While these jargons may come handy in explaining things, they don’t have much of a relevance in Indian light music. And the amusing thing is that most of the blocks who use these jargons don’t have much of an idea what these stand for. For instance, when they speak about KK’s ‘baritone’ voice they think they are referring to ‘deep’ or ‘booming’ voice while in reality ‘baritone’ refers to a range of notes (the most common vocal range for males) and infact almost all the male light singers in India have a range that’s typically baritone.
All:
Know what’s the definition of nuetrality (when it comes to HFM)? It’s worshipping some singer while admitting Rafisahab is also good.
And what’s bias? It’s worshipping Rafisahab while accepting that other singers were/ are also good.
(As I understand from some of the posts here)
There is a suraiya song of 50’s:
mast aankhon mein shararat kabhi aisi to na thi
this is a beautiful song iin which suraiya maintains mellifluous evenness of voice throughout.lata couldn’t have done it in this particular song.does it mean that lata is not the greatest singer in female category? not at all.she is the best.for every single suraiya gem she has produced a hundred.the same is the case with rafi versus others.
from among scores of rafi songs,i give below just six:
1 na kisi ki aankh ka noor hoon (lal qila)
2 jinhein naaz hai hind par voh kahaan hain (pyasa)
3 mujhe le chalo aaj phir us ghali mein (sharabi)
4 daaman mein daag laga baithe (dhool ka phool)
5 maine chand aur sitaaron ki tamanna ki thi
6 tum ek baar mohabbat ka imtehaan to lo
i would like to know of as many songs of each top singer in which the voice is infused with so much melancholy,pathos and pleading.what i have noticed in other singers,including lata,is that the tune or the wording of the song may be sad but the voice retains its pristine staticity.it is much more so with so-called melancholy kings,talat and mukesh.no offence intended,only an observation.
MYK ji,
Thank you sir for your great reply. A balanced consensus indeed.
Indeed it is very fine to speak with people like you.
Satyansh ji,
I have recd. your mail and I have replied to it (2 mails I have sent) I have seen your website and noted the observations therein. Indeed, I really appreciate your views therein, and your interest in hindi music. I am also very happy to note your keen interest in southern and telugu music, especially ghantasala songs, – this we may continue through mails.
As you say, true there may be some fanboys (to whom it is difficult to convince even the truth), whom we can ignore. We cannot lose our patience, but I feel we should present our views in a convincing way while dealing with such people.
But if we concentrate on only such people and withdraw, we tend to lose some genuine, secular and balanced rather true rafi lovers here, who have real indepth knowledge of hindi music and songs. Since I have been associated here since long, I request you to kindly spend some time (at your leisure) in viewing all the messages in this site (from beginning), and you will find great enlightening comments from some fine rafi ji lovers, to quote few names such as vasuji, ramakrishna ji, venkatadri ji, swamy ji, raghavan ji, murthy ji, myk ji, binu nair ji, narayanan ji, etc. who incidentally happen to have good knowledge about southern singers also. Of course, it is a matter of regret that leaving few of the names above, others have not been posting their views of late, which I feel perhaps, might be due to some of the unnecessary arguments going on at some levels.
Dhani Ram,
Thanks for making the most important point: If Rafi could sing every song of every singer, no other singer would be required. And yet, many here seem to believe exactly that.
Regarding “Tujhe kya sunaon mein dilruba” vs. “Yeh hawa yeh raat yeh chandni”, I am afraid there is no way you can “prove” your statement. Setting aside as to which is the more difficult composition, “you” might feel that Talat’s voice is old, jaded, and squeezed out, a Talat fan might feel the same about Rafi’s voice. A mukesh fan might feel both the songs are useless when compared to “Saranga”.
In any case, I didn’t bring in Talat to compare with Rafi. I said Biswas used Talat mainly because no other singer could sing like Talat when it came to soft compositions. Period.
Naveen,
Even though Rafi got a big break with “Baiju Bawra” in 1952, Rafi did not become the top singer right away. And by top singer, I mean the original or first choice for most of the MDs, the singer who got their best compositions. I am not counting the number of songs here, but the best songs. Except Naushad, the other MDs used Talat and Mukesh mainly for their best compositions.
It was OPN first with “Aar Paar” and “Mr. and Mrs. ’55” in 1954-1955, then SDB with “Pyaasa” and “Nau do gyarah” in 1957, and finally Roshan who joined the Rafi camp and made him the top singer. So I maintain that Rafi was the top singer only from 1957.
Do not just count the volume of songs. Look at the different MDs during the time period, and which singer got their best compositions.
Roshan – big time Mukesh fan
SDB – mainly used Kishore, Talat, and Hemant
CR – Talat
Biswas – Talat
Salil – Mukesh, and even Manna Dey
SJ – Talat and Mukesh
All of them used Rafi during that time period, but their best songs went to Talat and Mukesh.
Haldar,
Reg. message 1548,
The issue is not why or how Talat was able to sing like he did. The bottom line is that the way Talat could sing, nobody else could do so. Simple.
I could care less how Talat was able to sing like that. Whether it is because he had some issues with his vocal chords or whether that is the only way he could sing without sounding besuraa.
The whole argument is moot because I never claimed Talat to be a more versatile singer than Rafi. I brought Talat into the picture only because some here were wondering why Biswas chose Talat instead of Rafi. People here claim that Rafi could have replaced Talat, which is false.
My point was Biswas liked the style and vocal effects that Talat brought into his singing, and no other singer could have done what Talat did. Simply because no other singer has the voice of Talat. Again, I am not claiming Talat’s voice is the sweetest or best. All I am saying is that it is a different voice, and nobody else has that kind of voice. And that was the reason why Biswas chose Talat more than any other male singer.
By the way, how are you doing with your “simple motto” ?
Correcting a typo
——————–
To Satyansh:
Here are the links to Rafi’s yodelling. I must admit Kishore is the master of the art, but Rafi does it too. It is almost kiddish and naive to expect that Rafi or for that matter any singer of repute, cannot do this. I have at least 3 college class mates who could do it.
http://www.esnips.com/doc/8d4b719a-0982-4884-b7bd-6d930e15017a/Hindi—Reporter-Raju—O-Chale-O-Kaho
http://www.esnips.com/doc/f87b5f25-1a15-4e68-a2d9-f36875c91a6a/Hindi
There are more that I cannot trace online. And some of them were recorded even before KK came into limelight.
Statement 1:
““…You had implied that your “revered†connections can do a better job, and that’s the problem…Revered does not make them equal to Rafi…â€
First of all, I did not imply that at all.â€â€”Satyansh
Statement 2:
“I know people very close to me with that range, greater voice modulations and great voice texture. Not all singers go on to sing for Hindi films, in fact in many families it was not considered good to sing in films in those daysâ€â€“Satyansh
Now, can you reconcile #1 and #2 and tell me what you implied?
It is your problem that you seek literary “truism†in the expression-â€superhumanâ€. Maybe I should dig up every occurrence of “superhuman†on the web and associate them with Spiderman or Batman..