True Voice – Mohd Rafi
The following article was brought to my notice when Sharad posted it on MAS. The article has been trimmed down a bit keeping afloat Rafi details. However, anyone interested can go visit the source at http://tfmpage.com/forum/4980.6302.04.57.19.html
I am Swaminatha Iyer and I am 78 years old. I hail from Tiruchi and I am a part of music associations in Tiruchi, M’as as well as in West Bengal and Maharashtra.
I think it is wrong to condemn music or artists on either side of Vindhyas. Our Indian music is one of the few which has not been cleaned off by the western music though there has always been a influence. It speaks a lot of the richness of our music. Sometime back director of MTV had said that MTV westernized the music wherever it went but in India , MTV had to be Indianized for it to be accepted. A lot of this credit goes to the Indian film music.
I have been fortunate to have close personal association with Rafi, Sirkali, TMS, Dr. BMK, Kishore, SPB & KJY, PS, Mannadey and the one and only Lata Mangeshkar.
Comparisons are bound to come, but almost every artist or I have met considers Lata to be beyond comparison. Her talents are beyond anyone’s reach. Even Sirkazi used to talk of her singing like a die-hard fan as do countless others.
Now coming to the Rafi-SPB discussion. It might be difficult to convince an South Indian to believe Rafi is the better and at the same time Rafi crowd will never believe any other male singer comes anywhere nearer. There is one more mobile crowd, which is well conversant with Hindi and some south Indian language. Majority of them tilt to either Rafi or Kishore.
During one of my stays in M’as I had stayed with SPB. While talking of true voices he said, I don’t feel like half a singer when listening to Rafi. True voice is not a tech term but many in circle use it. Perfect example would be lata, but to understand consider our own PS who within her range is superb. People who do not have such true voices can never do justice to original. They generally underplay many parts of the song or fake it with bass/superficial singing. True voices make people like Sirkazi, Nusrat Fateh Ali khan, Lata… Inimitable. However since Sirkazi and Nusrat did not have the filmy voices their “real” following is limited to their local arena.
In addition to the true voice if the singer has a very good voice then in “most” cases he/she can better songs of others. It is this combination which makes Rafi stand out among the other male singers. There are many here who seem to have mistaken notions on a good bass and also on high pitch.
Bryan Adams does not require a monster bass in “Summer of 69” to sound real manly. It is the punch which gives that feel and that is decided only by the comfort level in most ranges (that is by what your throat can support). This you CAN never disguise with bass. Since people have talked about lack of manly voice viz. a viz. Rafi it was necessary to bring this point out. I have had the fortune of listening to most singers in studio and some times without a mike, practicing with MD’s.When Lata or Rafi do, the level is so high that people hesitate to even hum. It felt silly to sing in their presence (and it feels silly when someone says his voice isn’t manly).
In RD’s tribute when SPB sang “Aaja Aaja mein hoon” or “Chaand mera dil” it sounded only sweet and lacked punch if you compare with Rafi’s original.
Yesu once told me God has been partial to Rafi. He said “god gift term anavasyamaa romba common aa ippo use aardu”.. but idu Rafi kee thaan 100% porundu”. This person could sing “as intricately as a lady without sounding thin”, “cover any mood”, “versatility odey perfect example Rafi”. Yesu said most important is the comfort level over ranges which makes you feel God has been partial to Rafi. (But Of course in Rafi’s early career (1950’s) the voice was relatively feeble).
To people exposed to Rafi’s talent, these or any amount of praise can only seem less. I just wish he was alive and you people could get a live chance to hear him. Probably you can get hold of the DD album for the Geet Gaata Chal series where the first four episodes were dedicated to Rafi. Rafi is on camera singing “O Duniya Ke Rakwaaley” and many other songs. If you see and hear the last part you will realize why SPB said “impossible”. I think particularly those people who have talked about scales w.r.t Rafi should see this album. Its a known fact in industry that Rafi ruled high pitch and there is no male singer better in switching notes so easily. There are artists who can go beyond but then they sound strained or they don’t have pleasant voices when they venture into those territories.
Many singers of today are his compulsive followers. But they end up inheriting only part of his quality. Md. Aziz ended up with a sad voice. Mahendra Kapoor with a thick nasal voice. Anwar with a nasal voice. Sonu Nigam with a feminine voice. Rafi neither had a soft voice nor a heavy (bass) voice he had a good voice. Importantly did not strain at high notes, and voice if at all only became better at higher notes. If you see him singing it will remind you of Janaki. However diff the song is or the note is he will be smiling and singing. It is unthinkable that he cannot sing something.
There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo” song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect. There are lot of other songs of SPB where this great singer has played with songs in total control. You will find most south Indian singers who have had a good exposure say that it is beneficial to learn Hindustani as it gives better breath control and improves expression.
Rafi was not only able to glide over a song, the important thing was that he could express each word/sound when singing. It is one thing to hold your breath, start and reach a crescendo (high note), as like in “Shankara”, “Anbey (Yennai kaan villaye)” it is different ballgame if you have to do it from low notes or suddenly switch notes. With practice the former can be done, latter requires a special gift. Rafi had a natural ability to do the latter. In “Tum joh mil gaye ho” there is such a transition in the “karwaan mil gaya” part. I have never seen anyone do justice to most of his songs in my life time. In “parda hai parda” quawaali the similar part is “kar doon to, Akbar mera naam”. In fact most of his songs will have these specialty as it was his natural ability to sing freely in a wide range at the same time giving that extra expression.
Whereas SPB takes us to heavens with “Idu oru pon maali”,”Ilaya nila” “bisiladarenu”(kannada), when he sings Rafi’s song it lacks the punch or expression, though it has the bass. But at least most agree that SPB does some justice to original, whereas most others murder the original.
One trivial point I would like to add is that singing in Hindi is harder. There are more “JHA”,”CHA”,”HA”,”THA”, “KHA”,”JA”,”FA”. These take away the breath faster. The more expressive you are the more air you are using up. Just singing from Nabhi will not help, your throat also needs to do a lot, for singing in Hindi, Bengali etc. SPB makes you fall in love with his south Indian songs but same cannot be said about his Hindi songs. If you just glide through words having these sounds, you will never be expressive. Doing this as well as reaching high notes is not easy. Rafi had this gift and that’s why it is difficult to imagine anyone else in his shoes. Song “Chalkaaye jaam” has so much expression that it is unthinkable how anyone can sing it. When Rafi switches to a high note with “Mitwaa” in the song “Chaahunga mein tughey” you cannot replicate it with bass. Most others will sound as if they are shouting in such cases. That man’s throat had the ability to freely sing at such levels.
Versatility is not just the ability to sing in various styles, more important is how good you are singing in those styles. You have lot of Ghazal singers today but when Rafi sings a Ghazal you will sit up and take notice. You don’t have to be part of the Ghazal listeners crowd. This is one important aspect. Whatever style you sing you should be able to pull the common man to listen and not just a particular crowd. Pick “parda hai parda” or any qawalli and it will stand tall among other qawalli’s.
Variety is amazing :
songs of Guru Dutt’s Khagaz key phool or songs like abhi naa jao chod key, Aaja teri yaad aayi, Aaj kal mein dhal gaya, Aaj kal terey merey pyaar, Aasmaan sey aaya farishta, Dil ney pyaar kiya hai, Deewana mujh saa nahi, Din dhal jaaye, Duniya paagal hai, Jaane walon jara, Dil joh na kaha saka, Dil key jharokon mein, Dil kaa bhavar, Chalkey teri aakkhon sey, Kar chaley hum fida, khilona jaan kar tum, Woh jab yaad aay, Woh hain jara khafa, Vaadian mera daaman, Pathar key sanam, Chaand mera dil, Main zindagi kaa saath, Mainey poocha chaand sey, sun sun jaalima, Koi jab raah na paay, hum to chaley pardes, badan pey sitaarey, laal chadi maidaan, Tum jo mil gaye, O meri shaahey, Sau baar janam lengey, Tum mujhey yoon bhula, Tumney mujhey dekha, Terey merey sapney, Tumny pukaara hum chaley aay
Name a situation/mood and Rafi’s song will be there on the top.
Swami
arghya is leaving this site it seems . (post 1690).no one would drop a tear on the self imposed guest i believe.
but, it will be fair to know from him why during various occassions his guruji songs are not played on the radio, in music concerts and public functions.
for example on aug 15th and jan 26th i hear no guruji songs. on relegious occassions again – no songs of guruji. again during classical moods we do not find guruji songs. when we talk of the finest ghazals again guruji is missing.
agghya loves mohd rafi he says and he must be happy that rafi has playbacked for 12 songs for guruji on screen.
he says : i hate guruji. this is the greatest lie . the truth is I love Mohd Rafi, talat mehmood, lata ji, k.l.saighal , mukesh, manna dey, kishore kumar and many others – who have given us terrific soul stirring music.
My preference of rafi saaheb and millions of music lovers alike – in this land is not to arghya liking.
hence he wants everyone herein to be “neutral” and say great things of his favourite singer – Kishore Kumar ji. this will appeal to him and he would welcome it.
well mr.arghya : we are selective of our choices of our memorable songs and singers and that can never be wished away – so very easily.
so please learn to live by the fact that your choices of songs are way different from the choices of millions of music lovers and mohd rafi lovers.
no issues, your leaving will never change anything on the earth. goodbye.
binu nair
Rare Rafi song for Bappi Lahiri’s music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2mdN3i8DF8
Has touch of the 60s..
Manish ji
I fully agree with your views. That is the main reason I was mentioning in my earlier posts that south & north singers cannot be compared as specialisations were altogether different. The No.1 in the north and & the No.1 in the south stand apart as two different poles. If somebody fights one is above another, it becomes a really difficult point to prove.
Coming back to sur, technically qualified musicians generally do not have that problem, otherwise the technical qualification has not meaning. Technically qualified singers have perfect sur and in my view whosoever have unique voices are more preferred.
Mr.Arghya:
Here’s my farewell note to you.
This great site (as you have called it yourself) is not a ‘neutral music blog’. It’s a site created by a Rafisahab admirer for Rafisahab admirers. If your intention was to ‘correct’ us and lead us in to the ‘right’ path (of KK worship which you call ‘neutrality’), let me say you were in the wrong place. You might respect Rafisahab but so does many others (while being die-hard fans of other singers), that doesn’t qualify you to preach us.
As Haldar sir pointed out earlier, most of us here don’t practise or appreciate ‘dishonesty’ (which is otherwise known as’diplomacy’). We love music, we love Rafisahab, we also love other singers. We would appreciate it if someone visits this site declaring that he is a fan of XYZ singer and that this particular singer has such and such strengths. But to pose as a ‘balanced’ analyst, then accuse us of being ‘hate-propogators’ and ‘biased’ and assorted stuff, that wouldn’t be appreciated here. For your information there are several young people here (Prabhanjan for instance) who knows a great deal about music but who confines themselves to being ‘opinion-staters’ rather than ‘judges’.
So my advise would be to shrug off the ‘neutral’ coat, come back as you really are (someone who is very fond of KK who also ‘respects’ Rafisahab), I’m sure you’d be better received here.
Thank you.
Sir vishal ji
as you said on post 1694( specially in this unique rafi ji’s beautiful site which is completing close to 1700 messages, which no other similar site (including guruji – some 1285 posts) had ever achieved.)do you why in KK site it 1285 posts that also because of Mohd Rafi.more that 90% of 1285 posts are mohd rafi fans
Surajit,
It seems that in playback singing for hindi films, there is a level of proficiency required for sur but after that point it boils down to other factors (a lot of which are subjective). When Rafi & Lata sing “Dil Pukare Aare Aare” both have met or exceeded the level of proficiency required for sur in this film song. Now the question becomes how pleasant and soothing is the voice? How vivid are the expression of emotions? It’s like interviewing job applicants for an engineering job. First thing employers look for is “good grades”. After a certain point the employer no longer cares between A- or A+ but now looks at how convincing you are in your interview or your experiences. Of course if you didn’t make the first cut then it becomes a serious hindrance. This is not the case with Rafi, Kishore, Lata, Asha.
Suppose from listening to “Baat Chalat” you conclude that Krishnarao Chonkar has greater technical ability than Rafi. Now have both sing “Ab Kya Misaal Doon”. In the latter song, you may not even be able to prove that Krishnarao was technically more skilled than Rafi. Even if you did, technical ability only goes so far and Rafi would still prevail with his rendition.
On the other hand, if we were talking about classical or carnatic songs then technical ability becomes much much more emphasized. Now it’s not just about reaching a certain proficient point. If Rafi, Kishore, and Mukesh were placed in Ghantasala’s industry I’m not sure that the three would make the same corresponding mark they did in hindi films. My whole point is that technical training or skill is important in film songs but it is just one of the factors. Sur came naturally to Rafi & Kishore. That both were natural talent first and foremost, training second. No amount of training will enable someone sing “Ab Kya Misaal Doon” like Rafi.
continuation to my last line in previous message binu sir,
specially in this unique rafi ji’s beautiful site which is completing close to 1700 messages, which no other similar site (including guruji – some 1285 posts) had ever achieved.
Singh saab,
Your earlier post – on Brindaban ke krishna kanaihya from miss mary – in fact it is a very beautiful song by rafi-lata duo. This song was much famous during 50’s. Great music composition and I understand from you that it is the original telugu music composition.
Rafi fan saab,
Thanks for remembering me. It is a fact which you have said. Rafi saab is number one in terms of popularity factor which I had already highlighted earlier. As you said, we rafi lovers need not lose track.
In fact, sir like you and binu ji, dignified views are being presented in smooth languages and this has been the culture of rafi fans always similar to rafi lovers’ icon – the great rafi saab.
Binu Nair saab, – 1686,
You are right sir regarding Kishore ji. Kishore was certainly a fine & great singer, but as you said rafi was more versatile & popular and his contribution was more as compared to guruji in the specific compositions you referred to and there is no dispute about that.
Binu ji (personally between us ) a small note on your observation on Shri Ghantasala ji.
Binu saab, I agree with your view on Shri ghantasala ji’s popularity too as well vis-a-vis rafi ji and this I have highlighted in my earlier posts. Nevertheless, sir, though not really a ghantasala fan, after hearing him personally out of interest I had done sufficient research on this south indian legend through websites and all and was given to understand that his contribution is unmatched in terms of various musical genres in the south. Similar to rafi ji, ghantasala ji’s contribution too has been quite versatile in various genres and certainly more than others in the south. Many known people whom I have talked in this regard were of the view that barring popoularity (in which only rafi ji was number one) as we have discussed, which was limited only to the south, Shri Ghantasala ji was second to none in playback singing and other private contributions in music as well. In fact, many people have specifically stated to me, that as was rafi in 50’s & 60’s similar was ghantasala ji at that time in south. (As you said, again today in the course of time, this popularity factor is reducing barring andhra, tamilnadu & karnataka) This was even stated by SPB himself. In fact sir, I was also given to understand that, no music shop exists in A P without his CD’s today, even after his passing away some 35 years ago, as I understand. This was the main reason, I had highlighted earlier and requested others to please do not try to make comparisons between south and north singers, as their specialisations were altogether different.
answer to 1680
you have to find participants able to sing and justify rafi saab’s songs.
If we compare rafi saab with any other singer “it is
an insult” to rafi saab since nobody is there to even
dream about to achieve his position in the field of
music as well as a perfect “gentleman”.
Definitely my last post on this site… Thank you all so much… My last words to Binu Nairji.. Yes, sir, you respect all the legends, all the singers and giving false anecdotes repeatedly on Kishore Kumar you have proved how you respect them.. I, unbiasedly, “love” Kishore more.. But as far as “respect” is concerned, I respect Rafi, Kishore, Mukesh, AB, SC all equally… And that reflects from my comments… There will be many here in this site to know this, but to “admit”?? No body. Because, we are so “concerned” about rafi’s image to get hampered by admitting a truth from a true lover of film music who “unfortunately” shows regard to other legend also.. Not all of you, but a handful of you, have gone abysmal depth in degrading others and that is a fact..Call it a lie.. I don’t have any problem.. The problem is with you people.. Because that is why you all are called “Rafi Fans” and not “music fans”… We all know the reason why…
Mohd. rafi might have been “greater” than Kishore… Noone should have any problem in that.. Let us stick to the “greatness” factor then.. Don’t drag “popularity” factor( Binu, that is for you).. We all know rafi’s fan following falls short of a singer’s fan following whom you “hate”( yes, I intentionally use this word, although you have written so many times you “love” that singer, but your words have always shown the opposite)…
And you people always chose “political” things so easily.. A remote violinist carries more strength to you when he speaks “for Rafi” but a great music director becomes “fool” when he speaks against Rafi??/ All are requested to go back your own individual columns to see who is speaking the “truth” and who the “lie”…
People should come here to show respect and pay their tribute to rafisaab, but we indulge into such “dirty” games??? Where is Sandeep Nadkarni?? If he was so “great” to assess whether salilda should have continued the music direction of Maya or not, then why is he not more respected than Salil Chowdhury today??( Oh sorry, definitely, he is more respected than SC, at least in “Rafi-fans'” mind)
Before leaving,,, I request all of you to go through all my posts which I had put in this sacred site right from the beginning.. Do a thorough study..,. Then find out( you all are great analysts, right?) who had indulged into bad mouthing…
Binu… You remember all those comments so well against Kishore, right?? Then when you listen any “true” comments against Rafi, why don’t you take them in good spirit?? When anything is against Rafi, then, according to you they are all “lies”, “dirt”, cheap”??? And whenever anything is agaist Kishore, they are history??? Wow.. No doubt.. there are only handful of true Rafi fans alive in this country and no Rafi based 4 month long programme on national TV…
Dear Manish Kumarji, Guru Murthy sir… please don;t mind.. I never intended to sound so “harsh”…Sorry to all the fans.. BYE
Anil:
I am not talking about the ‘notes’ in the taans. I am talking about the taans itself, the way the taans are delivered. You don’t have to take my word for it. You can discern it yourself if you pay a little more attention. There is a clear contrast. Sure, if you wish to deny that there is significant difference, you are welcome to do so. However, the difference stands.
Regarding the voice, yes, it is subjective to the extent of a person’s taste. My father claims that Saigal’s voice is the sweetest voice he has ever heard. And I cannot say that he is wrong. When I said superior voice, I meant that Rafi’s voice at the time was sweeter and younger sounding than Manna Dey’s voice. And therefore, it was natural that he was chosen over Manna Dey.
Where did I go ga-ga over high notes ? All I stated was that in duets (which are obviously love songs), it’s possible that higher notes have more emotive appeal than lower notes. And I didn’t claim this as a fact. It was just a theory I put forward to Manish Kumar as to why the Female singer has to climb up rather than step down to the Male singer’s pitch. And further I said that, because of that reason, it was unfair to compare Lata’s performance at Rafi’s pitch. I am not as crazy over absolute high or low notes.
I never claimed that Kishore was the greatest singer. All I said was that Kishore is comparable to Rafi as far as the technical aspect is considered. If you prefer Rafi’s style of singing, that’s perfectly all right.
I don’t believe in trotting out big names as being fans of either Rafi or Kishore. I only brought up those names because most folks here use them to prop up their views. It’s either Yesudas said this or SPB said that etc. That is not any proof or any thought-provoking analysis.
Sir paramjeet
most famous playback singer not mean to be on screen but when ever on screen they speak about the best singer.If you have money you can be a film star.
I hope you know what said by Naushand Ali,OPN,Madan Mohan,LP,SJ,Ravi and many more who know about music about Mohd rafi.
Can you answer me when we had the best music in Bollywood?
KK was and will be great but it not mean that he is more famous than other,as famous I think mohd Rafi and KK are same because who Know KK he should know mohd Rafi .
Please come to Gulf or Pakistan or Sri Lanka or UK or many other country you will know how is Mohd rafi famous all our the world…….
In Wiki National Awards were mentioned from 68 onwards with MK winning that in 68 for “Mere Desh Ki Dharti”. So I assumed that it started from 68 onwards. I may be wrong and have no hesitation in accepting that. There is no doubting that if the awards were started earlier, say 55 onwards, Rafiji deserved at least half-a-dozen of them.
Total Lies : I was going through a link of mr.satyansh where he says that mohd rafi lovers are “degrading” other singers in this site. this is a total lie mr.satyansh, a “white lie” i would say.
we music lovers love the works of all the singers just because they all have given gems to us at some time or the other. to degrade them is a sin according to me.
but, analysis of a musicians contribution has to be done. the music must appeal to the ear. hence its found that mohd rafi leads, “leads” all the way in all spheres of singing which “unfortunately” most of the singers lack.
can we say truthfully that guruji kishore kumar sang so well in all genres of film music. has he sung great songs categorised under : patriorict songs ? the answer is a clear “no”. has he sung bhakti songs? no sir.
what about ghazals ? again no sir. and classical numbers. again a big no.
guruji lovers, please “never” come here and say that guruji could have sung all these numbers. it stinks. its rediculous. dont expose your partisanship here and show your musical blinkers and compare mohd rafi with your idol.
same goes to say with shri ghantasala. how many people outside a state know shri ghantasala. what is his popularity to day?
my point herein is – give credit where it’s due and do not get jealous of mohd rafi’s popularity around the globe. please do not wear musical blinkers and bring in your personal theories herein and make contoversial statements.
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about salil chowdhury, sachinda, c.ramchandra and manna dey, lata mangeshkar views on mohd rafi :
they all have conceded that mohd rafi is the number one singer at various times. i am personally aware of them as i have researched enough of their views on the number one male singer of the land. mohd rafi leads by far.
yes. their favourite singer was x y or z many a times but their best singer was rafi all along, inspite of their differences which is bound to be there in a not so “pollution free” industry.
=============================================
about maya song : “tasveer tere dil me”
according to a independent musician, mohd rafi has even overtaken lata in the song and whatever thrash is being said is all due to “vested” personal interests.
==============================================
a music lover who is a profesor said during a shammi kapoor musical evening at shanmukhananda hall about guruji kishore kumar.
“he was a singer for rajesh khanna” and we do not rate him too high.
these are the sample comments of common folk and therefore please , “never” compare your favourite singer with Mohd Rafi.
lets agree that they made great and important contributions to the music scene. please do not go “overborard” and say your singer is the best in this forum of mohd rafi lovers.
binu nair
myk,
where were we? oh, we were discussing rafi’s nazrul songs. nazrul was famous for his shyama sangeet (shyama is another form of goddess kali) and other types of devotional songs. Here’s a song where rafi enters a familiar terrain — nandlal playing holi with the gopiyaan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXA3GobedxY&feature=related
Listen to this song; it might remind you of rafi’s “khelat holi nandlal” composed by pt. ravi sankar for godaan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4TtHWql3Uo&feature=related
I don’t know why but I just love this song; see how beautifully rafi brings out the inherent sweetness of the bhojpuri dialect, at the same time adhering to the holi mood. Another song from the same film is also a favourite of mine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wDCGThDWvo&feature=related
Here’s one more light-classical nazrul song of rafi’s:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm_k-S8WHCo
And here’s the same song by Pt. Ajoy Chakraborti, currently one of the most popular classical singers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj6yz9lfO0Y
We can never be sure if Rafi got only one National award (Kya Huwa Tera Waada). I have read in quite a few places that he got his first National award (Rajat Kamal… ) for the song Tujhko Pukaare Mera Pyaar from Neelkamal.
Hi,
Our own Raju Bharatan had written an article in 1970 stating that Mukesh has evolved into a “besura”. As he has always had a free hand in getting a kick out of penning such articles without any restrictions and creating controversies, perceptions about various singers have possibly shaped up in people’s mind based on these. His monopoly in such articles (mostly instigations) has been rivalled to a limited extent only by Rajiv Vijayekar. To Rajiv’s credit, he has been fairly consistent in his viewpoints and has not desired to ever stir a hornet’s nest.
Can someone ke kind enough to list all the besura (off-key) numbers of Mukesh so we can all share our viewpoints in this forum? I know that this is a Rafi forum and this is not meant to be a distraction…but I guess that this is a serious allegation against a reputed singer and we can spend some time evaluating this.
Ganesh
Mukesh versus Kishore
—————————
Aha!! being an ardent Rafi fan here’s my chance to give a neutral opinion. Mukesh did go off-key on several songs. Its easy to discern-just listen to the Mukesh and Lata portions of ‘Phool tumhe bheja hai’ or Rafi and Mukesh in ‘Dil ne phir yaad kiya’. Hemant’s problem was that he was not exactly off-key like Mukesh, but rather “touched†the notes but did not “hit†them. Several singers like Mahendra Kapoor and Anwar had similar problems. Anwar had the base of the Rafi of 70s, but then he would just go flat in some portions of the songs.
Mukesh’s beauty was his bass. It was an asset, so much so, that the off-key singing often turned into an expression of detachment (Rafi, with his ability to hit the notes hard was an epitome of attachment). That is why Mukesh is so successful in sad songs. Somber yet poignant…
I never saw problems with Kishore’s ’sur’, within the genres he excelled in. Only someone with ’sur’ can do justice to “Khiltey hai gul yahan†which has fast twists and turns.. Kishore’s problem to me was that he sang for the producer and hence lot of songs that went on to become superhits did not have the effect on me. His gayki was meant for commercial success…Take Kishore’s Qawaalis. Did Kishore go out of sur in “Vaada tera vaada†or “Kahin bekashi ne maara� I don’t think so. But did he grasp the mood (mahol) of a qaawali? I seriously doubt.. And hence I often forget to even qualify them as Qaawalis. Same about patriotic songs.
Rafi struck a fine balance, which I mentioned in my analysis of cultural and commercial contributions.
Post 1678
Rafi won national award twice
1. 1957 – Jinhe Naaz Hai Hind Par Woh Kahan Hai
2. 1977 – Kya Hua Tera Wadaa
Post 1677
In terms of sur control Manna Dey and Rafi are the best among male singers.
Lata and Asha best among female singers.
Rafifan saab…
Well, rafisaab is the most famous playback singer?
Then, when are we going to see “R for Rafi” on screen?
Binu Nair ji – ref. post 1674 & rafi lovers
I request all esteemed rafi ji lovers to refer post 1622 by vishal ji – he is correct. Rafi ji is the most popular singer in the playback singing world with more number of fans as compared to other accomplished singers such as ghantasala ji and kishore or others. No body can compete with rafi ji is this aspect. Why rafi ji has got such number of fans – there itself lies the answer and nothing needs to be proved in this respect.
MYK saab,
There are fine number of songs by rafi saab which appear great only in this emperor’s voice and it cannot be similar with anyone. This point needs to be understood by many. No rafi lover need to bicker, as it is a known fact (& as we rafi lovers have said earlier) that whenever discussion comes up vis-a-vis any singer, rafi ji finds a place in that discussion as it is due to the so called unchallenged “benchmark” factor which MYK ji often refers to and similar status is not enjoyed by other singers. On this basis, it can be fairly concluded that rafi stands always rafi vis-a-vis his status.
In fact, we rafi lovers have very great regard for all the great playback singers and it would be only fine, if similar views are echoed by other people (fans of other singers) too in this forum of rafi saheb, in favour or rafi ji.
Why did Kishore Kumar fail to win National Award? Plz understand that I am in no way saying that KK did not have enough talent to win this. What is surprising is that he could not win in Bengali, something that Hemant Kumar and Manna De achieved.
I request one and all to discuss this in the sanest of the ways and not degrade KK in any way. Surprisingly, Yesudas and SPB won it respectively for the songs “Gori Tera Gaon Bada Pyara” and “Tere Mere Beech Mein” which may be considered as almost their first songs in Hindi. THere is no doubt that KK should have won it at least one time, and that Rafi won it just once is also very understatement.
Hi Naveen,
If you are willing to ignore the singer’s voice going off-key and even occasionally besur just because you like a composition, I will not argue further with you.
Like I said Mukesh probably has more aesthetically pleasing compositions to his name, but his control over “sur” is not as high as the other singers. That, according to me and most fine-tuned listeners, is definitely a drawback. More power to you if you are willing to overlook such a major aspect as sur.
Hemant Kumar is another singer who is apt to go off-key.
I am not at all worried about Mukesh ranking higher than kishore, because he doesn’t. All I am looking at is which of the major singers have a strong hold on their sur. And in addition to that, how good are they in the other aspects that I had highlighted.
By that token, Kishore trumps Mukesh.
dear bose,
In your 1660, you seem to be upset over the fact that Mukesh comes out as a better singer than Kishore till a particular period in time using your Ist criteria and hence you question the validity of the criteria itself. It is prudent to take facts as they are than to find holes in them.
When I look at our great singers , I take volume of their entire work, study its commercial and cultural impact and then base my perceived conclusions on the strength of that. In that sense Rafi leads by a huge margin, followed by Kishore and then Mukesh. If I exclude the decade of 70’s ,then among these three Kishore lags behind Mukesh in good measure. And if I take the body of work from 72 to 76 only ,Kishore leads Rafi and Mukesh. Why one of them overtook the other at a certain point in time is itself reflective of the real life. There is something called continuous improvement, innovation et al. Talent is a product of gift of God(or stroke of luck) and acquired learning. Like seventies music suited Kishore’s voice texture and talent,similarly certain compositions in 50’s and 60’s suited Mukesh more Kishore and that is why he comes out as a bigger player than Kishore in that period. If none could sing Aaake Seede Lagi better than Kishore, lets also respect that none could sing Saranga Teri Yaad or Chal ri Sajni better than Mukesh. Even around 75,Mukesh was better suited for Ek Din Bik Jaye Ga than any other singer and popularity of his version proved that.
My second point is that in this world one is known by what one has done and not what one could have done. What one could have done is a wishful thinking. An illiterate rickshaw puller may have more natural IQ than you and I ,but has received no benefit of education and hence is not considered as smart as you and I. The fact is that Kishore was generally not considered for certain genres even when commercially successful. We can’t change that. We have to respect the judgment of composers. That Kishore may have technically been anybody’s equal or even more talented is a pure conjecture and not substantiated enough by examples. At the same time let me say that none should have the slightest doubt about Kishore greatness as a singer.His contributions overall in the realm of playback singing are second only to Rafi’s.What makes Kishore stand out is that fact that even with limited contribution to genres championed by Rafi and others he left his formidable legacy in the field of playback singing.We salute him for that. But at the same time it would be insulting to him to thrust upon him all that what he was not.
Thanks
Naveen
dear ones, why are u quarreling for silly matters over rafi, kishore issues? in life time both these singers were good friends & respect each other. as an actor kisore had sung more than six songs of rafi saab.even in 1972 rafi saab had sung for kishore under the baton of lala sathar.as a singer rafi is far more superior to kishore. his voice lack sweetness and ok for only comic or bafoon type songs.kishore himself knew this fact that is why he had requested op neyyer to call rafi saab for singing the song in the filim ragini
Post 1667 : myk : re the 125000 orkut babes i have a point. why they “do not” visit guruji kishore kumar site and pen some articles and responses. the site seems to be very lonely with very few takers. that’s why guruji lovers are coming here in great numbers.
after seeing the articles and responses they seem to be un-nerved about mohd rafis ever increasing influences on music lovers. so they invent their own theories.
very soon, i will be issueing a certificate that two singers in the musical universe are the best . they are kishore kumar and ghantasala ji. they beat mohd rafi saaheb very easily in all departments of music.
and, the said singers have the highest number of fans in the music world.
be happy now, atleast.
binu nair…..mumbai
Surajit bose ji, – Post 1661 addressed to Dhaniram ji,
Sorry for my interference. Your statement about kuhu kuhu bole koyaliya from suvarna sundari by lata – rafi, which as I understand from this forum is the original telugu rendering by ghantasala and other lady singer from telugu and music directed by shri adi narayana rao. Bose ji, I do not dispute Shri ghantasala ji’s rendition and talent, he is simply outstanding & unique in the entire song, as many people have stated here. In fact, no body can dispute about that. But I think your views regarding rafi ji and lata ji struggling has to be viewed from their point of specialisation. I think the song is composed from a carnatic style, and naturally ghantasala ji, as he was perfect, did complete justice and breathed life into the song. You should view rafi ji and lata ji from a hindusthani style, as they were specialisations in that point of rendition. And I think from the hindusthani style, both rafi and lata did fine job. No body can expect rafi and lata ji to bring a carnatic style beauty and depth, like ghantasala did, as rafi ji and lata ji were hindusthani musicians, but we have to surely appreciate rafi and lata ji for their fine job from their specialisation point of view. Both of them struggling view of yours might be taken as the carnatic style and depth has more attraction than the hindusthani style in this particular song, that may be main reason why many people support the telugu rendition. In fact, bose ji, no rafi lover has disputed about the fantastic telugu rendition of ghantasala ji, but from a hindusthani point of view, I think the hindi rendition is also good.
This may be the main reason for some genuine music lovers statements that hindusthani and carnatic should not be compared as both are great in their own ways and altogether different corners.
People who are interested in the Salil controversy, have you ever tried to find out what Salil said about Rafi? Read an old issue of the Bengali film Magazine Anandalok. Just 2 weeks after Kishore’s death, Salil commented on Kishore. As far as I remember Salil said that only voice is not everything. However he also said that if Kishore had classical training he could have reached the place where Rafi was. Rafi never sang for Salil after 1963/64. But Kishore sang. Another thing, Salil always said that the first time he realized that Kishore is a good singer was when he recorded ‘Koi Hota’ for Mere Apne (1971). Just look at the year, its 1971. But by 1971 Kishore had sang around 20/25 songs under Salil including that ‘Aa ke sidhe lagi’ (I guess Rafi sang around 20 songs in total for Salil. I have heard 12/13 of them). If you need 20 songs and 20 years to know that a singer has some class, then something is wrong there! (One important difference between Rafi and Kishore is that Rafi preferred practicing with the music director — old style, Kishore preferred getting the spool a week before). Also regarding singing in two voices — just watch sonu nigam singing in the voice of 4/5 different singers (male and female) at the filmfare ceremony! to me he did a better job.
When you draw comparisons among singers, you should give the verdict in terms of contribution (thats my view). If you classify all the singers you will find two general lines — the traditional approach to singing (for hfm I rate Saigal as the best in this approach) and rafi’s approach. And rafi just sidelined all the traditional stalwarts in their prime times (Manna, Kishore, Mukesh, Talat). The gap was such that Manna said that from 1 to 10 its rafi, then other singers. And just look at the impact of rafi school — its the most dominant school, even now. AR Rahman in an interview said that ‘I am looking for my Rafi who can switch notes quickly’. If you say that ARR doesn’t understand music then I can’t argue. This is evident in ARR’s picking of Rafi-gharana singers. Can you think of Kishore singing ARR-compositions? they are not simply his type.
About Anil Biswas: the structure of filmi song is not AB’s contribution, its Gulam Haider. After rattan in 1944, Naushad became the no. 1 md. So if someone says that in that decade AB was the top md, its a distortion of fact. Another information, Naushad did not do Devdas (1955), his price was too high — 110,000. Then SD did it for 20/25 thousand. And yes, in those days this was the gap between naushad and sd. And Devdas was not a hit (did average business) mainly due to its music. Now coming to AB again, this man had attitude-problem. He had a habit of claiming things that he had not done. In my whole life, I never heard anybody playing an AB song (except me and the radio). And now he is more remembered for his (distorted) comment on a singer he did not like!
Regarding, Satya’s rating, his aim was to show that rafi was not number one. he did that. but he did not analysed why manna is number one, and kishore is tied with rafi at 2. and i would love to hear his father’s version of “duniya ki rakhwale” in the youtube. singing the song is not all. just imagine in 1952, when a fishermen in our village was singing ‘tu ganga’ (bhairavi), “rakhwale” (darbari) —- its the impact that matters. Manna’s classical rendition could not reach the common people, he failed here miserably.
Small correction:
Surajit,
I tried Tasveer Teri in my own small way yesterday (I do perform in small social gatherings)…I think the two “haâ€s (jaâ€haâ€n “haâ€i ) in short succession are very difficult to manage, and make it impossible to transit to the third octave in one shot. Lata gets a well-rounded vowel in naâ€iâ€non that offers the pedestal for the transition. I am not sure of Salil’s expectation here.
My 2c.
Surajit:
Your link in post 1661 doesn’t prove anything. The difference in rendering of taans is as per design. The two singers aren’t singing the same notes in the finale of the song. Rafisahab’s rendering is in no way inferior to Lataji’s here.
Now what is this ‘superior voice’? You were taking all sorts of pains to prove that there is no such thing as a ‘superior voice’ and everything is purely subjective except the ‘technical’ things.
And how come you have started going ga-ga over ‘the power of absolute high notes’? You were contesting it vehemently till recently. Or is it that the absolute high notes can be a decisive factor when it comes to male V female voices but not with Rafi V Kishore?
How come Saighal saab has been relegated from the ‘perfect singer’ stature and duly replaced with Ms.Hope? Is it that there is only room for just two ‘at the top’?
Could you please spare us from the ‘Kishore-the technically great singer’ stuff. We (at least most of us) are sick and tired of it. And if you believe it’s the ‘layman’ who thinks that Rafi is ahead of the pack, please tell us how we are to treat Yesudas sir, M.S.Viswanathan sir or Raja sir? Just one of us (laymen)?
Has any of the pandits and ustaads (you were referring to) ever declare that Kishoreda is ‘comparable to Rafisahab in terms of technical competency’? Or that Kishoreda is the greatest singer? They’ve said they like KK. What’s the big deal? Millions like him (including most of us Rafians). The ustaads and pandits like him mainly because KK has never ventured into their territories and he is completely unlike them whereas Mannada or Rafisahab have tried their hands at classicals and may not have gone as per the the text books. Actually we have a similar scenario in the South where the technically brilliant Yesudas sir has been criticised by the Karnatic classical (often so-called) experts (because he sings classicals in a ‘filmy’ way) while SPB sir gets in to their good books (because he seldom sings classical stuff).
Prabhanjan:
“Pathar ke sanam” was composed by LP who mostly did a fine balancing act between male singers. And it was Manoj Kumar who played the lead, so it’s natural that Mukeshji would be singing some songs in the movie. However I don’t suppose he could have sung the title song very well because of the high notes and swift notes switch. I think this explains the scenario. May be the veterans of this community could throw more light on it.
Can somebody explain me this? In general, Mukesh is known for sad songs and Rafi for romantic songs. Yet, in Pathar Ke Sanam, Mukesh sings the romantic numbers “Tauba ye matwali chal” and “Mehboob Mere” whereas Rafi sings the sad title song. Why, why, why?
Similar instances may be pointed by legendary fans.
Ref Post 1659:
P. Haldar,
Excellent post. You have yet again hit the nail on the coffin. I hope others listen to your words very carefully. We need to filter out all the crap being written on this forum by certain individuals. Why don’t they go to other sites and spread all their myths there ?. If one cannot accept Rafi’s unmatched greatness, well too bad, don’t come to his site and start an over-kill of pollution.
You wrote:
“In closing, let me tell you something. A lot of us know more about kishore and rd than you guys do. And naveen zalpuri saab alone knows more about hfm than the 125,000 of you orkut babes put together. Get some rest, satyansh beta. Tension mat lena, hnaa?”
Amen to that !.
Rafi being the greatest singer overall, was also technically the best singer as well (be it in any aspect including the recently discussed ‘taan’ aspect). To say that he had any faults or weaknesses, or others were better technically (or better overall) is a myth.
Btw, where is XXX these days ?. We are missing his posts on this forum.
Vishal ji,
Thank you and I believe we are on the same page. As long as I can present a neutral alternative picture, I’ve done my job. Like I said before, I’m respectfully challenging the belittling of other respectable personalities, etc. I am not sure if the time on the posts is actually the time zone of the blogger or of the server hosting the site 🙂 – I guess the admin can probably tell. Like many others have said about each other, I have started finding many biases here amusing, so it is sometimes fun :).
Surajit,
I second your post no.1657. I have been saying the same thing for soo long :).
Sudip,
I will hold my thoughts on your views about Kishore, RD, Bappi and Asha murdering Bengali songs. I appreciate you sharing your views. I’d love to hear more from you about Hemant and Manna Dey’s Bengali songs particularly the dhoti-clad folks you mentioned. I really like watching Uttam Kumar – there was a Hindi film of his I vaguely remember making an impression because of a sad song (rendered by Rafi??). According to you, were Hemant and Manna Dey a bad influence like Kishore, RD and Asha too? What do you think about this song of Kishore? – “shudu ekti kani chawa” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLYec6T-G1k
Haldar ji,
I think you have gone cuckoo (or was this always the case?). I have given a very detailed response to your vulgarity on http://satyansh.com/smf/index.php?topic=31.0. It includes an a chronology of what happened (leading up to when you brought out this weird notion), an elaboration of what I have said that you perceive as borrowed (home-grown talent, et.al.), my response to you and finally I have addressed my take on the few songs of Rafi I’ve heard viz-a-viz Hemant, Manna Dey, Kishore, etc. I have given examples for what I state for all to hear. It is of course my personal opinion and people are free to disagree. Some people might atleast hear those songs and see what I am saying. The only words I believe to have used in common with you are “home-grown talent”, the rest is my opinion – like I said I elaborate on my website. It is hilarious that you continue to think that this is not common knowledge. If Rafi were alive today, he’d probably sing “Kuhu Kuhu Bole Koyaliya”, only this time he’d change the lyrics to “Cuckoo Cuckoo Ho Gaye Haldariya” and sing it for you – the lyrics fit perfectly – lol – just kidding. You said – “…I am going to turn up the heat on you and your fellow brats if you keep writing your crap…”. About turning up the heat, first of all, I’d say you are the real brat. You have threatened to beat up and kill people, etc. Secondly, I’d say do turn up the heat, it’s been really cold this winter and I might just save on some electricity :).
Arghya ji,
Are you a journalist? I don’t understand who Haldar ji is referring to as my “journalist friend”. Anyways, please keep posting your views and sharing your knowledge. So far, from I have gathered from your posts, you are only expressing your views in a respectable manner and are not rude to anybody.
Hi Sudip..
I appreciate your views on bengali music and even I admit in the 80s, bengali music went into an abysmal depth never to return.. And Kishore and Asha partly, and Bappi Lahiri mostly, have lot to do with this..
If you give me your mail id, then I can forward you a write up which I had written of this gradual transmission of Bengali music which I don;t want to discuss here as this is irrelevant in rafisaab’s forum..
Hi Sudip,
While I will not argue with your reflections on the state of bengali music after the advent of RD, an equal part of the blame, if not the greater part, must lie with the MD as well. The same Kishore Kumar came up with a beautiful song in the Rabindra Sangeet mould in “Charulata”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM-cQB2SyFs
Without flinching a bit from my love for Rafi Saab, I wonder if it is the Sanskrit or Mytheli dialect that affected the natural fluidity of Rafi Saab in some fast paced semi classical songs. I personally do not have a big problem with any of them, but was wondering if Manna had any advantage there.
Take a semi classical Ghazal composed in Urdu. And follow the fluidity and the “pakadâ€:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c213rkrQfA
If anyone is yearning for sweets here, just listen to this (wrapped in honey):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4uZpXPzmR4&feature=related
Anil Cherian (message 1645),
Your notes are correct overall, but my point was different. I was talking about how they reached the third octave.
Lata makes a climb from ga to sa’ (sa in the third octave) in just one word “Nainon”.
Nainon
G-p-S’
Rafi makes the climb in two words:
Jahan hain
G-p D
He climbs from Ga to pa in “Jahan” and then climbs to Dha (in the same octave) in “Hain” (instead of Sa in the third octave as Lata had done). He then climbs to the third octave with “Kadam”.
Lata’s transition is more difficult. In any case, this is just of academic interest. Like I said, I am not as fixated with these chord progressions as other fans of Salil.
Hi Dhani Ram (reg. message 1654),
To answer your queries:
1. Except Salil, and that too only when the mood fit him, no other MD was particularly fixated about rapid chord changes in their compositions. So, what happened in “Tasveer teri dil mein” has nothing to do with Rafi’s or Lata’s performance in other solos or tandem songs. Further, it is not like Rafi was “besur” in this song. It’s just that he probably didn’t hit the exact note that Salil wanted. I am not arguing with the final result, as I enjoy this and the rest of the songs from “Maya” as well. However, it probably explains why so many retakes were required.
2. I have no idea, but I don’t think so. The Royalty controversy was a known issue to the public anyway, so I don’t think any subterfuge was needed there.
3. Why indeed ? Why was Talat asked to sing “Itna na mujhse tu pyar bada” or Manna Dey “Aye mere pyare watan” ? Is it because Rafi was unable to sing them ? In this song, it is probably because Rafi was the primary voice for Dev Anand during that phase (like he was the voice of Shammi Kapoor, Rajendra Kumar etc.). And Hemant, or Talat would not have been able to sing that song.
4. Wrong. Rafi was better in duets and tandem songs that used the higher scales – mainly composed by S-J (“Ehsaan tera hoga”, “Aji roothkar ab”, “Dil tera deewana” etc.) but not “all” duets, and definitely not in classical duets. I would urge you to first listen to this duet and then let me know your analysis: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQNcsfFw7_E
The difference in their renditions of the taans is striking in the above songs.
“kuhu kuhu bole” is nowhere one of the best “rendered” classical songs in HFM. It’s a beautiful composition, but the rendering is not up to the mark. Both Rafi and Lata struggled here. Lata with the higher pitched portions, and Rafi with the taans. AAnd neither has came close to Ghantasala’s rendition. And I disagree with this analogy that a MD picking a particular singer for a song proves anything. Probably Adi Narayan Rao picked Rafi over Manna Dey because of his superior voice. Mukesh was picked above everybody else for the title song of “Saranga”. Does it mean that Rafi or Manna Dey would be incapable of singing that song ?
Hi Dhaniram,
The thing is we first need to define the criteria that we are using:
Is the criteria based on the cultural and commercial impact Rafi has had on successive generations of music lovers ?
Or is the criteria based on purely his technical skills ?
If it is the first criteria, then, yes, Rafi is probably the most influential playback singer in HFM. Because though Mukesh, Talat, Hemant all have had great impact on music lovers, Rafi is more versatile than all of them. His voice modulation is excellent as well as his ability to pour feeling into different types of songs. Kishore is extremely versatile too, has tremendous depth in his voice, and is very successful also, but like Sudip said, his appeal is restricted mainly to the younger generation. I say “mainly” because you will undoubtedly find listeners like me who love his contribution in the late-’40’s to the late-’50’s and early-’60’s.
But the problem relying on this criteria is that even Mukesh comes out to be a better singer than Kishore. After all, Mukesh has more beautiful compositions by the great MDs of the times like SJ, Naushad, Salil, Roshan etc. Is that really true ? No, it’s definitely not. You yourself said that Manna Dey was a little reserved in his praise for Mukesh. SDB once said that Mukesh tends to go off-key and so usually he required more retakes than the rest. It is well known that Mukesh’ range and control over sur is not as good as either Rafi or Manna or Kishore.
So if it is the second criteria, then the outcome is not as clear cut as it is believed. Rafi definitely had his weaknesses. Purely based on technical criteria, Lata and Asha outshine everyone of their generation. In this case, IMO, Rafi is definitely not “far ahead” of every one else. Contrary to what most laymen think, Kishore is very much comparable to Rafi in the technical department. The problem is that of Kishore’s image as being a singer of purely comical songs.
I posted a link to a Lata-Rafi duet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQNcsfFw7_E just to show that Rafi had his limitations in the classical genre when compared to Lata or Asha. Even Manna was not Lata’s or Asha’s equal in this genre: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L5saeQyHdA
You can hear Asha here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_UdLKA1JAs
I have Manna Dey’s autobio where he has a lot of respect for Kishore too. We have MDs like RD, SD, CR, Biswas who were unequivocal in their praise about Kishore’s caliber and potential. Why should their statements about Kishore be considered anything less than what other MDs like Naushad said about Rafi ? As much as I respect quotes by one legend about another, we must remember that they have to be diplomatic. After all, they are speaking to the public about their peers. Further, every MD has his favourite singer, like all of us. I would rather rely on my knowledge about classical music and my ears to discern fact from opinion.
Kishore had his fans too among the classically elite. Ustad Rahat Fateh Ali Khan, Pt. Ravi Varma, Pt. Bhimsen Joshi are all confessed fans of Kishore. There might be many more.
As an example, take “Aake seedhi lage dil pe” from “Half Ticket”. If you keep aside the fact that it is a fun song, a comedy song, and not a “serious” or a semi-classical song, and if you actually pay attention to the song and Kishore’s singing, you will marvel at the level of voice control Kishore displayed. Remember, not only does Kishore have to switch instantaneously between his normal voice and his falsetto voice (which itself is not a laughing matter – considering that they had no techny stuff to do “tricks” like they can today), he had to maintain the sur in both voices AND he had to bring in the requisite vocal effects pertaining to the song. And he had to do it continuously, unlike today where they can record different parts of the song separately and then join them together. And I can vouch for the fact that nobody but Kishore would have been able to sing this song.
The problem is people say, “Oh, Kishore didn’t sing any semi-classical songs” or “Oh, all these songs are just crazy, comedy songs”, “Yodelling is nothing, it’s just a gimmick.” etc.
It is very superficial to go by these lines. The truly aware listener goes deeper. He pays attention to the finer points of a singer’s capabilities like the ability to sing sustained notes on lower, middle, and upper scales, his ability to transition smoothly across octaves, his abilities in transitioning from his chest voice to his head voice (falsetto) without any hitches, how smooth and flexible is his voice across registers, whether he can sing totally flat or whether he can sing with resonance as required by the song etc.
When you include these points, Kishore is a very capable and very versatile singer. He has demonstrated many facets covering these various aspects in many different songs, covering many genres. It takes a lot of musical imagination to do what Kishore did.
Like I said, the number of men who are really adept at something is very small indeed. But the number who are truly adept and also original is a very tiny minority. It is primarily the latter attribute that recommends Kishore Kumar.
satyansh,
don’t try to act smart. I know your types only too well. You and your journalist friend come to this site in the guise of being balanced analysts, and then try to showcase how other singers (from saigal to talat to manna to kishore) were better than him. As for your respect towards me, I couldn’t care less. There are many folks on this forum who are much younger than me (myk, xxx and anil cherian) whom I genuinely respect although I don’t agree with them all the time. But I don’t like folks who are intrinsically dishonest and come to this site for creating mischief.
In my response to myk’s post, I had commented that bengal had too much home-grown talent and there was no need for rafi to play in that market. Now let us see how you use my words and twist the facts to your advantage:
———–
“You compared the popularity of Manna Dey and Rafi in Bengali songs sighting one example. You are a Bengali and you mentioned you like Manna Dey’s Bengali songs, so I assume you know better than to compare Rafi and Manna Dey in Bengali songs :). Bengal had so much home-grown talent, I think Rafi did not even have room to grow there. Lata and Asha certainly made their mark there as well. As far as the limited number of Rafi’s Bengali songs I’ve heard, they just sound very empty to me. The voice does not have the weight of Hemant, Kishore or Manna Dey.”
————–
If you ask me, that’s a pretty damning statement to make about a singer whom we and millions of others consider to be the greatest singer ever. Remember this is his site and we are his devoted fans, and I am going to turn up the heat on you and your fellow brats if you keep writing your crap. Since you guys are so confident about the superiority of other singers over rafi, why don’t you go to those sites and share your knowledge at those singers’ sites? as far as I am aware, your guru’s site is not receiving a lot of posts; its readers will benefit a lot from your treatise on music and on your expert analyses of your guru’s superiority in ghazals, bhajans, partriotic songs, qawaalis, etc. etc.
In closing, let me tell you something. A lot of us know more about kishore and rd than you guys do. And naveen zalpuri saab alone knows more about hfm than the 125,000 of you orkut babes put together. Get some rest, satyansh beta. Tension mat lena, hnaa?
Dear Mr. Satyansh, Ur post 1648
Thanks and great regards for your response (in catching my point) and true gentleman spirit. I duly acknowledge & reciprocate the same. I have enjoyed the way you present your frank views and would like to see further.
Further, as I observe your message is posted at 5.08 a.m. ; surajit bose ji’s message at 4.45 a.m. (post 1642), haldar ji at 12.31 a.m. (it is midnight – post 1641) – Really, all of you are people having interesting knowledge of music and singers and your patience should be really appreciated, all of you are working even in the night hours.
Hi Sudip,
Nice to see you come back. Actually, I was always sane in my replies. If you will read my posts, I have never criticized Rafi just for the sake of criticism. My conflict was mostly with posters here who view Rafi as a singer without technical faults or weaknesses. If someone claims Rafi as a superior singer to Lata or Asha or even Manna Dey (if the ability to navigate fast-paced taans is concerned) without providing any sort of analysis, I find it hard not to respond.
Regarding the ‘bhava’ in bhajans, I agree with your point of view to an extent. I say this because you are right when you take Kishore from the seventies (as “Priya Praneshwari” is). However, Kishore from the ’50’s and ’60’s could infuse a lot of feeling even into songs of pleading to the Lord.
A very moving song (part Manna Dey and part Kishore) is “O Jag Ke Rakhwale” from “Door Gagan ki Chhaon Mein”. It’s a beautiful song composed beautifully by Kishore and rendered with moving depth. He just doesn’t have as many devotional songs as Rafi, but here his voice is amazingly sombre and has a lot of depth. So much so that he doesn’t have to do a lot of emoting while singing.
However, I do agree with you. There are songs of Rafi that nobody else can render with the same depth and feeling.
Like I said, my arguments were with people who claim Rafi as the technically perfect singer. Only Lata and Asha come the closest to that level of perfection.
Ref. Post 1638:
Rafifan-ji,
Thanks for the wonderful piece about MSV and Rafi-saab. This is yet another example (of the countless number of examples) that makes Rafi-saab the greatest singer of all time. I appreciate your other comments as well, please write in more often.
As Rafi fans, we don’t need to prove to anyone that Rafi is the best, we already know that he is. His talent, skills, repertoire, along with comments by various music personalities, and so forth (a countless number of other things) speaks for itself.
It is those who cannot seem to digest that Rafi is so great, who spark such unwanted discussions which are a waste of time. One can write a book on the amount of myths they spread. These people hardly have any knowledge in music, because if they did have musical knowledge, then they would know that Rafi is the best singer of all time.
There are far too many aspects of Rafi’s singing, skills, talent etc. that to compare anyone to him (or compare him to anyone), and to put anyone in his league and class etc. is impossible.
P. Haldar, please check your mailbox, I have emailed you some interesting SD-Rafi stats.
tasveer teri dil mein controversy raises a plethora of questions in my mind. will someone answer them?
1 rafi sang hundreds of songs before tasveer–solos and with lata– under the baton of top mds. never was any question raised about rafi’s deficiency in rendering any surs.
2 why was the tasveer controversy kicked up to coincide with royalty controversy?
4 rafi never lagged behind lata in any duet or tandem song.he was invariably better.those who are raising dust over the question of taans should know that nobody knew this area better than adi narayan rao who got rafi to sing one of the best ( if not the best ) classical songs in films with lata as his partner: kuhu kuhu bole koyalia.adi had some idea of taans.and rafi renders them superbly in this song.lata too does a commendable job. but whereas rafi’s voice doesn’t suffer any dimunition,lata’s voice is forced out of constricted vocal cords.
3 if rafi was not rendering tasveer properly,why didn’t salil da replace rafi with manna or mukesh or kishore or hemant or talat to sing this song ?
Anil Cherian,
Never mind. You do mention what I was getting at – “…So the real issue was the mis-match of the vocal ranges of Rafisahab and Lataji…”. This issue of the mismatch of vocal ranges is actually quite common amongst the Hindustani male/female singers I have interacted with. It can be seen even to some extent with Lata/Manna Dey or Lata/Kishore. Same with Asha. Females excel in different areas. It seems easier for Lata to sing the lower notes and Rafi to sing the higher ones and like I said amongst the people I’ve known this is usually the case.
I’d still encourage you to cross-check with female singers you know and see if your findings are the same. You’ll have to discount head voice for females. Some are very good with changing to head voice for certain high notes and if their voice is not a very powerful one (more on the sweeter side), they maintain almost similar strength even with their head voice, but I wouldn’t include that for determining the range here. For males it is usually much easier to tell when they try to use a technique to hit higher notes.
I was not going to leave this forum. I just stated that my parting statement would be around contribution, because that is the only thing that’s definite. When it comes to voice , there is no one, including Lata Mangeskar that is best in all aspects and hence universally recognized as the ‘best’. And even in tems of contribution, I never asserted that Kishore is just a ‘commercial puppet’ as Arghya interpreted. My assertion is that only Lata and Rafi have an “even balance” between commercial and cultural contributions. For someone like Manna De or Talat the weight lies more towards the cultural side. For Kishore it is heavily inclined towards the commercial side. Lata and Rafi are absolutely even and hence above the rest.
On Rafi’s ability to retain melody, it means a lot to me. And it is so unique as an attribute, it does score heavily for him. To give an analogy, it is like Shane Warne’s spin. One might say, what is Shane Warne without the huge legbreak (he did not have the googly like some other legspinners)? But that single attribute is so unique and dominant that it makes Warne the greatest.
““Aan Milo Shyam Sanwre†is just beautiful.. The bhava and rasa is a direct descendant of the Bhakti cult. Though my conjecture is that post 1957, that song might have gone to Rafi. SD did try lot of Bengali tunes with Rafi and Rafi did justice to all of them. Both the duets in “tere ghar ke samne” (‘Sun le tu dil ki sada’ and ‘Dekho rutha na karo’) have distinct Ramprasadi influence, and Rafi and Lata excelled in both.
Coming to Bengali music, my biggest grudge against Kishore is when it comes to Bengali music. This has nothing to do with ‘sur’ or ‘shruti’ and hence you will never appreciate it if you go down that route. You have to focus on the nuance and spirit of Bengali culture to be able to appreciate this aspect. I had posted the following analysis earlier, but let me repeat.
To me, RD, Bappi and the likes with the aid of Kishore Kumar (and Asha Bhosle) murdered Bengali songs for good. Bengali songs in the 1950s to mid-70’s represented the soft romanticism of the Bengali bhadralok played on screen by Uttam, Soumitra, Subhendu.. Songs used to be soft and strong on lyrics.. Rewind to Uttam hits in Pothey Holo Deri, Sankhabela, Nayika Sangbad, Deya Neya, Antony Firingi, Stree or Chowringee…Or the Soumitra starred Sat pakey badha, Monihaar, Pratham Kadam Phool…The melodies were soft and mellowed, the focus was on lyrics and tune.. Voices of Manna, Hemanta, Shyamal, Satinath, Dhananjoy used to represent the dhoti-clad bengali bhadralok, depicting classic bengali romanticism and intelligentsia..
Then came Kishore Kiumar, backed by RD and Bappi..This was the worst import that could have ever hit Bengal from Bombay.. Most of the Bollywood hits were “bengalicized†without any care for regional nuances or culture. So we saw Kishore humming “He he ha ha ha†in Bengali numbers, tunes completely contrarian to the soft bhadralok personality.
Things started going out of control in the 1980s. Towards the period of Kishore’s death we witnessed juvenile lyrics like “(H)E(Y) amar gurudakhinaâ€, “Eparey thakbo ami†or “Tomar barir samney diyey amar moron yatra†delevered in the “Mumbaiya” open-throated style. The real funeral procession (â€moron yatraâ€) was that of Bengali songs.. It only hastened the arrival of Sanu, Abhijeet, Udit who polluted it beyond recovery..
Bengali songs will never be the same..
P Haldar..
Nothing against you or nothing against your hatred to Kishore, RDB, Bengali journalists, media, producers of 70s, me, styanshji, sony TV, FM radio etc. etc. etc. etc.
But express your hatred in parliamentary language sir.. It is a public forum and everybody has his/her own right to express comments.. Take it as a request from a co-member of this community and a rafi-fan like you with a small difference, i also admire those people whom you hate:)