True Voice – Mohd Rafi
The following article was brought to my notice when Sharad posted it on MAS. The article has been trimmed down a bit keeping afloat Rafi details. However, anyone interested can go visit the source at http://tfmpage.com/forum/4980.6302.04.57.19.html
I am Swaminatha Iyer and I am 78 years old. I hail from Tiruchi and I am a part of music associations in Tiruchi, M’as as well as in West Bengal and Maharashtra.
I think it is wrong to condemn music or artists on either side of Vindhyas. Our Indian music is one of the few which has not been cleaned off by the western music though there has always been a influence. It speaks a lot of the richness of our music. Sometime back director of MTV had said that MTV westernized the music wherever it went but in India , MTV had to be Indianized for it to be accepted. A lot of this credit goes to the Indian film music.
I have been fortunate to have close personal association with Rafi, Sirkali, TMS, Dr. BMK, Kishore, SPB & KJY, PS, Mannadey and the one and only Lata Mangeshkar.
Comparisons are bound to come, but almost every artist or I have met considers Lata to be beyond comparison. Her talents are beyond anyone’s reach. Even Sirkazi used to talk of her singing like a die-hard fan as do countless others.
Now coming to the Rafi-SPB discussion. It might be difficult to convince an South Indian to believe Rafi is the better and at the same time Rafi crowd will never believe any other male singer comes anywhere nearer. There is one more mobile crowd, which is well conversant with Hindi and some south Indian language. Majority of them tilt to either Rafi or Kishore.
During one of my stays in M’as I had stayed with SPB. While talking of true voices he said, I don’t feel like half a singer when listening to Rafi. True voice is not a tech term but many in circle use it. Perfect example would be lata, but to understand consider our own PS who within her range is superb. People who do not have such true voices can never do justice to original. They generally underplay many parts of the song or fake it with bass/superficial singing. True voices make people like Sirkazi, Nusrat Fateh Ali khan, Lata… Inimitable. However since Sirkazi and Nusrat did not have the filmy voices their “real” following is limited to their local arena.
In addition to the true voice if the singer has a very good voice then in “most” cases he/she can better songs of others. It is this combination which makes Rafi stand out among the other male singers. There are many here who seem to have mistaken notions on a good bass and also on high pitch.
Bryan Adams does not require a monster bass in “Summer of 69” to sound real manly. It is the punch which gives that feel and that is decided only by the comfort level in most ranges (that is by what your throat can support). This you CAN never disguise with bass. Since people have talked about lack of manly voice viz. a viz. Rafi it was necessary to bring this point out. I have had the fortune of listening to most singers in studio and some times without a mike, practicing with MD’s.When Lata or Rafi do, the level is so high that people hesitate to even hum. It felt silly to sing in their presence (and it feels silly when someone says his voice isn’t manly).
In RD’s tribute when SPB sang “Aaja Aaja mein hoon” or “Chaand mera dil” it sounded only sweet and lacked punch if you compare with Rafi’s original.
Yesu once told me God has been partial to Rafi. He said “god gift term anavasyamaa romba common aa ippo use aardu”.. but idu Rafi kee thaan 100% porundu”. This person could sing “as intricately as a lady without sounding thin”, “cover any mood”, “versatility odey perfect example Rafi”. Yesu said most important is the comfort level over ranges which makes you feel God has been partial to Rafi. (But Of course in Rafi’s early career (1950’s) the voice was relatively feeble).
To people exposed to Rafi’s talent, these or any amount of praise can only seem less. I just wish he was alive and you people could get a live chance to hear him. Probably you can get hold of the DD album for the Geet Gaata Chal series where the first four episodes were dedicated to Rafi. Rafi is on camera singing “O Duniya Ke Rakwaaley” and many other songs. If you see and hear the last part you will realize why SPB said “impossible”. I think particularly those people who have talked about scales w.r.t Rafi should see this album. Its a known fact in industry that Rafi ruled high pitch and there is no male singer better in switching notes so easily. There are artists who can go beyond but then they sound strained or they don’t have pleasant voices when they venture into those territories.
Many singers of today are his compulsive followers. But they end up inheriting only part of his quality. Md. Aziz ended up with a sad voice. Mahendra Kapoor with a thick nasal voice. Anwar with a nasal voice. Sonu Nigam with a feminine voice. Rafi neither had a soft voice nor a heavy (bass) voice he had a good voice. Importantly did not strain at high notes, and voice if at all only became better at higher notes. If you see him singing it will remind you of Janaki. However diff the song is or the note is he will be smiling and singing. It is unthinkable that he cannot sing something.
There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo” song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect. There are lot of other songs of SPB where this great singer has played with songs in total control. You will find most south Indian singers who have had a good exposure say that it is beneficial to learn Hindustani as it gives better breath control and improves expression.
Rafi was not only able to glide over a song, the important thing was that he could express each word/sound when singing. It is one thing to hold your breath, start and reach a crescendo (high note), as like in “Shankara”, “Anbey (Yennai kaan villaye)” it is different ballgame if you have to do it from low notes or suddenly switch notes. With practice the former can be done, latter requires a special gift. Rafi had a natural ability to do the latter. In “Tum joh mil gaye ho” there is such a transition in the “karwaan mil gaya” part. I have never seen anyone do justice to most of his songs in my life time. In “parda hai parda” quawaali the similar part is “kar doon to, Akbar mera naam”. In fact most of his songs will have these specialty as it was his natural ability to sing freely in a wide range at the same time giving that extra expression.
Whereas SPB takes us to heavens with “Idu oru pon maali”,”Ilaya nila” “bisiladarenu”(kannada), when he sings Rafi’s song it lacks the punch or expression, though it has the bass. But at least most agree that SPB does some justice to original, whereas most others murder the original.
One trivial point I would like to add is that singing in Hindi is harder. There are more “JHA”,”CHA”,”HA”,”THA”, “KHA”,”JA”,”FA”. These take away the breath faster. The more expressive you are the more air you are using up. Just singing from Nabhi will not help, your throat also needs to do a lot, for singing in Hindi, Bengali etc. SPB makes you fall in love with his south Indian songs but same cannot be said about his Hindi songs. If you just glide through words having these sounds, you will never be expressive. Doing this as well as reaching high notes is not easy. Rafi had this gift and that’s why it is difficult to imagine anyone else in his shoes. Song “Chalkaaye jaam” has so much expression that it is unthinkable how anyone can sing it. When Rafi switches to a high note with “Mitwaa” in the song “Chaahunga mein tughey” you cannot replicate it with bass. Most others will sound as if they are shouting in such cases. That man’s throat had the ability to freely sing at such levels.
Versatility is not just the ability to sing in various styles, more important is how good you are singing in those styles. You have lot of Ghazal singers today but when Rafi sings a Ghazal you will sit up and take notice. You don’t have to be part of the Ghazal listeners crowd. This is one important aspect. Whatever style you sing you should be able to pull the common man to listen and not just a particular crowd. Pick “parda hai parda” or any qawalli and it will stand tall among other qawalli’s.
Variety is amazing :
songs of Guru Dutt’s Khagaz key phool or songs like abhi naa jao chod key, Aaja teri yaad aayi, Aaj kal mein dhal gaya, Aaj kal terey merey pyaar, Aasmaan sey aaya farishta, Dil ney pyaar kiya hai, Deewana mujh saa nahi, Din dhal jaaye, Duniya paagal hai, Jaane walon jara, Dil joh na kaha saka, Dil key jharokon mein, Dil kaa bhavar, Chalkey teri aakkhon sey, Kar chaley hum fida, khilona jaan kar tum, Woh jab yaad aay, Woh hain jara khafa, Vaadian mera daaman, Pathar key sanam, Chaand mera dil, Main zindagi kaa saath, Mainey poocha chaand sey, sun sun jaalima, Koi jab raah na paay, hum to chaley pardes, badan pey sitaarey, laal chadi maidaan, Tum jo mil gaye, O meri shaahey, Sau baar janam lengey, Tum mujhey yoon bhula, Tumney mujhey dekha, Terey merey sapney, Tumny pukaara hum chaley aay
Name a situation/mood and Rafi’s song will be there on the top.
Swami
Ref. Post 1648:
“but I stick to Hindi film music since there are people more talented than Rafi in different aspects in Hindi film music as well. All these singers including Rafi have their own strengths and we should acknowledge that other singers are better than Rafi at various things and vice-versa.
You should change the “we” to “you”. You can acknowledge that others are better than Rafi at various things or whatever negative you want to write about Rafi, but all that negativity is a figment of your imagination, and not a realistic evaluation. You don’t speak for everyone, and don’t try either. I acknowledge that others were talented, but no one was as good as Rafi or in his league. There are a countless number of songs to prove it, his talent and skills speak for itself, the countless number of music personalities also hail Rafi as the first and last word in singing, and so much more. You can choose to be oblivious to this fact, but it won’t change anything.
What you have written is purely subjective, you have not proven anything by your posts, so therefore anyone should not take what you write seriously, or as facts. Add to that, you have repeatedly listed that people you personally know have a better range than Rafi, which is laughable at best. Instead of making statements, introduce us to these folks, or give us a sample of their singing ?. Wait, let me say “I know better MD’s than SDB or Madan Mohan or Roshan, but I prefer to keep it silent. You have to believe me, and you can’t deny it just because you don’t know about it”……You see how foolish and childish that sounds ?. If a person makes statements like that, one already knows not to take them seriously. As for the rest of your posts, I have already addressed that in my previous post, and you are repeating the same thing over again, spreading false myths, so from that alone (leave aside the knowing people claim), one should not take you seriously.
Its already a proven fact, that Rafi had a vocal range that is beyond the “normal” range of a regular human being. He was blessed to have such talent and skills. Not everyone posessed the talent he had. In that case, whatever you say, or whoever you say you know and so forth won’t change that very fact. Also whatever you say, also won’t change the fact that Rafi was better in a countless number of things than any other singer. Again its a proven fact, and another proven fact is that Rafi was the greatest singer of all time. You (or anyone) can choose to write on it as much times as you want, debate about it a countless number of times, or try and do anything that gives you satisfaction, but it won’t change the fact, sorry.
@Singhji – Post No. 1628
My point is that it is not really as simple a song as it was put by Iyer sir, and though you have reiterated that “in my view, it is really not a tough song,”, I differ with this. We all know very well the producers don’t love Artists, rather they look on Return on Investment. If it were a simple and may others can also sing these type of songs, other artists would certainly have got their opportunity, which was not the case. That BMK criticized the rendition is another story completely. From what I have browsed, BMK is sometimes credited with re-inventing the Sankarabharanam raaga, and infusing a new life in it. Also, that movie was supposed to have all the songs by BKM with the lead artist role played by Somayaji by BMK himself. It seems he asked for a huge sum which was not affordable by the producers. Hence, they fell back to SPB. I had met SPB on 8 Feb, 09, wherein he said that Sankarabharanam is the only movie ever for which he did practice for 3 months. In fact, we are close to SPB circle, and know that K.V. Mahadevan’s secretary is more responsible for building the confidence of the producers in SPB.
Interestingly, after BMK expressed his reservations, as put by you, SPB learnt few notes right under BMK and has in fact sung a duet with him in Malayalam and also some other songs in BMK’s music in Telugu.
Also, though many people put that it took SPB 6 years after the passing away of Ghantsala to get the recognition, the fact remains that the No. 1 singer during this period was SPB himself. And just like Rafiji would have been No.1 singer even without Baiju Bawra (I dare say this), so would have been SPB without Sankarabharanam.
Finally, I disagree with you that SPB faded away after the arrival of AR Rehman and the introduction of the likes of Shankar Mahadevan. The fact is like S. Janaki and P. SUsheela who cut on their assignments after the arrival of Chitra (read as making way for the youngsters), so did SPB and Yesudasji. This is as good as saying that ARR is diminishing in Tamil in presence of Harris Jeyraj and Yuvan Shankar Raja just coz he is not giving more that 2-3 movies in a year.
P.S: I know that I have digressed from the flow of replies, but I had to justify against some remarks of Iyer sir, whom I respect as much as my parents. THis is my last post regarding SPB. Sorry and thanks.
Vishal ji (post no.1622),
Your point is well-taken. I think as far as popularity and appeal are concerned, Rafi and Kishore would definitely take the cake amongst male Hindi singers. As far as cultural contribution goes, Sudip has made some good points earlier.
Rafifan ji (post no.1638),
I agree with the virtuosity of Rafi’s voice. This discussion has gone off-track. The discussion was about the technicalities of music and the point I was debating was the false statements about range and Rafi’s superiority in everything that was being propogated by some people. If people say Rafi was greatest in the “world” at something, we can start talking about Charles Kellogg, Adam Lopez, etc.; but I stick to Hindi film music since there are people more talented than Rafi in different aspects in Hindi film music as well. All these singers including Rafi have their own strengths and we should acknowledge that other singers are better than Rafi at various things and vice-versa.
Haldar ji (post no.1641),
You are stooping to even lower levels. Your cheap remarks do nothing but make you fall even lower. I am still not going to disrespect you because you are an elder. I could have very well called you Havaldar (like the recent cycle chor) instead of Haldar like you called me satyanash instead of satyansh. Then I could have taken “Havaldar” and gradually moved on to “Pandu”, I’ll leave further extrapolation of “Pandu” to refer to you to your cheap imagination. What is the point though? Again call it being diplomatic or courteous, I don’t like to talk in the cheap manner that you do. We don’t even know each other in person. I don’t want you to boil your blood for no reason. You are an old person, just take it easy and enjoy your life. Do you seriously want to do anything with your threats? Let me know. There is nothing you’d really be able to do – I just don’t want to stoop to that level. Coming to the point in contention, I figure from your roundabout remarks that you are talking about my saying that Bengal has a lot of home grown talent. So with all the points I have made, do you really think I do not understand music enough to know this? Do you seriously think you are the only person with that information? lol. You are hilarious – cheap but hilarious. I don’t like to talk about race, religion, region, nationality, etc. in music and I’m saying what follows to elaborate on the incidental Bengal connection. My favorite film singers (with the exception of a few) and MDs are mostly Bengalis (I am aware of and avoid the regional contention about certain MDs being called Bengali) and have been since I was a child. I think that is why some people got the impression I am Bengali. Don’t give yourself so much credit for a statement so generic. I think any musical household in India knows of Bengal’s contributions to music. Many people I associated with in music circles as a child were Bengalis. That is why I have an understanding of classical and appreciation of Bengali contributions to music circles. Kishore would likely be better than Rafi in Bengali because of his natural grasp of the language. For example, I grew up far from my ancestral region, but I would most likely have a better grasp on my language than someone who had to learn it when they grew older since I spoke the language as a child. I would let Sudip or another neutral Bengali talk about Rafi’s standing in Bengali music circles viz-a-viz Hemant, Manna Dey, Kishore, etc. since I am limited because of my understanding of Bengali language. Haldar ji, you still have a chance to redeem yourself. Stop acting like a child or an aggressive elder (there is another word I could have used here, but I just can’t justify talking rudely to an elderly person). It makes no difference to me. What would it get you? Try to put differences of opinion behind you and look at what I am saying as just another perspective.
sudip_dat (post no.1647):
Good to see you are back. I was about to ask Surajit to forward you an email :). We are on the same page viz-a-viz your post no.1647. I also agree that it might seem like while I continue to appreciate Rafi’s voice, I trivialized that aspect. That impression might be because we were discussing other technical aspects and the focus of the conversation was elsewhere (read sur-taal-taan-etc.). You are more than welcome to change the focus – the important thing is that you remain here :). Like I said many times before, Rafi’s sweetness in his voice and ability to maintain it at a higher scale was his biggest strength. You are one of the very few here who acknowledge Rafi’s limitations or doesn’t say Rafi was the best at everything. Honestly, while some of it was fun (and hopefully gave a few people a different perspective), I don’t even need to debate with you; only exchange views, since you pretty much interpret things yourself. A look at the post by many others will give a picture of Rafi-fixated fans saying he was (is/will always be) the best at everything and that too across the world (maybe a frog-in-the-well view). You being a neutral Rafi fan certainly brings a balance and should encourage others to look at qualities of all singers and not think that Rafi was the best at everything. Even the aspect and personal liking of bhajans that I was pointing out to you was based the technical diffulties in rendering “Bhay Bhanjana” as opposed to the Rafi bhajans mentioned. Amongst my favorite bhajans (leaving out the classical ones) are “Bhay Bhanjana” and “Mann Tarpat Hari Darshan”, the latter not because of technical complexities but because of the tune and Rafi’s sweet rendering. I like “Aan Milo Shyam Sanwre” because of the devotion evoked by the tune and sweetness more than anything else and there was another point to me bringing that song up (I won’t get into any of that now – it is a different aspect :)). Any person know of the influence behind “Aan Milo Shyam Sanwre”? Like you put it, Rafi evoked “bhava” with his voice – let me emphasize it so as to avoid the feeling that I trivialize this aspect – I totally agree :). Manna Dey evoked “rasa” with his sur/shruti. The devotional high induced by the harmony between the instrument and voice is beautiful. As a sidenote example, I am not sure if you have attended live classical concerts – that will probably better explain what I am saying. Sometimes even the words are hard to understand, but you will feel such devotion flowing through the sur (amongst many other things) that it will convey the meaning to you so that you can put words to it. Thumris are a lot more technical and I will avoid that discussion for now – it might not be pleasant :). Let us first hear some neutral stuff all can enjoy. Manish Kumar is steering us in the right direction. We were not discussing this aspect before, we were discussing the sur-related technicalities of renderings. It seems that the focus of discussion is changing.
Surajit/Manish Kumar(post no.1634),
I think Manish has asked an interesting question. I thought a possible basic explanation would be good subject-matter to share on my website. So I have shared my views about Manish Kumar’s post no.1634 at http://satyansh.com/smf/index.php?topic=41.0. Surajit, I apologize if some of it is a repeat of what you said. I hope we have not shared the same examples again. 🙂
Anil Cherian,
Good subject-matter in your recent posts. I might not be understanding you correctly, so I have a question for you. In general, don’t you think it is harder for most females in general to hit say “Pa” in Tara as compared to males? If you know a few female singers, I’d suggest an exercise with a harmonium in 2 steps –
1) Both male and female start singing from “Ma” in Tara and continue to go higher. Observe who falters first.
2) Both male and female start singing from “Pa” in Udara and continue to go lower. Observe who falters first.
Please share your findings and interpretations of the same.
To Surajit, Satyansh:
It seems finally some sanity is prevailing. I would never ever say, Rafi is the best in everything. In fact, versatility never implies that. Also some of these are so subjective that people would never concur. One might argue that Dr. Anup Ghosal who has sung a handful of songs is the best male voice, and I have nothing against that view..I think Mehdi Hasaan had an enviable head voice and the richest timber..That is why, I mentioned that the only safe conclusion could be around “contribution”. If we agree that Lata has the maximum contribution “culturally” and “commercially”, the male counterpart of that honor is “Rafi”.
Now onto point topics..I do hold Rafi over Manna in “bhajans” and “thumris”. This is because the main part of bhajan/thumri singing is not only the ‘sur’ but also the ‘bhava’. Rafi was unparalleled in the ‘bhava’. Yesterday I was listening to Kishore’s “Priye Praneswari”. One can take that exact tune and turn it into a devotional bhajan (just by altering the laya/pace). I can bet that though Kishore sang the comedy number excellently, he would not be the leading candidate for the bhajan. The reason for this example is that ‘bhava’, not ‘sur’ is the main aspect of bhajan.
There have been some statements made by Satyansh on Rafi, ‘about Rafi’s sweet voice and ability to maintain that sweetness at higher range’. While Satyansh is appreciative here, there is a tad trivialization of this aspect. We cannot just gloss over this point.. Melody, ability to maintain that across low (Kahin ek Masoom nazuk si ladki, etc) and high (Dil ne pyar kiya hai ek bewafa se, etc) pitches is RAFI.. Without these there is no Rafi. Without these Rafi=Shabbir Kumar..
Without these there would be no ‘Kar chale hum fida’ or the opening refrain of ‘Abhi na jao chhod kar’. Without these rafi would not have died (he believed in taking a lot of ghee for maintaining the sweetness of his vocal tubes).. The reason why the whole India cries with ‘Kar chale hum fida’ or ‘chal ud ja re panchi’ is not that the songs had intricate taans. If you take out that aspect from the judgment or even trivialize it as ‘just another aspect that Rafi excelled in’, it would be pointless discussing anything…
Because Rafi was melody.. And that’s what made him great… And greatest to his fans..
On male and female vocal ranges
======================
It’s true that male and female voices have different frequencies and consequently different (absolute) vocal ranges. However that doesn’t explain why Lataji struggles with tandem songs (sung by Rafisahab).
The most common male vocal range would be something like pa/dha in the first octave of the harmonium (equivalent to g2/a2 of keyboard) to ga/ma in the third octave (equivalent to e4/f4). For female voice it would be pa/dha in the second octave (g3/a3) to ga/ma of (notional) 4th octave (e5/f5). So, in effect there shouldn’t be much an adaptation issue in tandem songs/duets when it comes to scaling of songs. A ‘sa’ for Rafisahab is the same as a ‘sa’ for Lataji (though in the next octave) and when Lataji sings ‘tumne mujhko hasna sikhayaa…..’ she sings (or is supposed to be singing) in her notes and her range (which by default is an octave higher than Rafisahab’s). So, technically there shouldn’t be any issues.
So why does Lataji struggles in Rafisahab’s songs? It’s on account of two things:
#1. Rafisahab’s extra-ordinary vocal range. He could cover the entire range of a typical baritone plus that of a typical tenor (From about g2 to c5). So a tune that’s set with Rafisahab’s vocal range in mind is often difficult to replicate (in any scale).
#2. Lataji’s range isn’t the typical most common (mezzo-soprano) female one. It’s lower than that. She could hit notes lower than most female play-back singers (not easily picked because of that unusually sweet voice) but couldn’t go beyond e/f (which was a walk in the park for Rafisahab).
So the real issue was the mis-match of the vocal ranges of Rafisahab and Lataji (not the male and female vocal frequencies, vocal ranges et al). And hats-off to all the great MDs of the golden period of HFM who did a great balancing act in all those memorable duets of this team.
Surajit:
I haven’t got the notes wrong. It’s ga-pa-sa-ga for Lataji’s “nainon ka” and ga-pa-dha-ga for Rafisahab’s “jahan hain” with the latter 2 notes in the 3rd octave (of the harmonium) for Lataji and last note alone for Rafisahab. Right? To avoid confusion I’d provide the equivalent keyboard notes. It’s e3- g3-c4-e4 for Lataji (in the ‘male’ octave) and e3-g3-a3-e4 for Rafisahab.
Now if you think Lataji’s ascent in the portion ‘nainon’ (from ga to sa with a sweep of pa in between) is a superior effort, what about Rafisahab’s in the portion “hain” (from dha to ga with no intermediary notes). I believe you know a thing or two about western scales. Lataji’s sung the chord notes of C major in her ascent (e-g-c-e) which as you might be aware are harmonised and therefore is a natural and may be technically ‘more’ correct (not sure on this, only Salilda knows what he had in his mind) progression. Rafisahab goes from a to e (not harmonic notes in this particular scale). So even in terms of technical complexity (not technical correctness) I wouldn’t rate Lataji’s a better effort. When it comes to the actual end result (as Mr. Ganesh rightly mentions) Rafisahab’s is any day better. So my (personal and subjective) verdict: Lataji has done it technically perfect (as she always does), but Rafisahab has scored with his own innovation (as he always does).
that rafi was less than any other singer in rendering classical songs in films is not correct. whenever manna de has paired with rafi,the latter has outdone him. i wish to offer one duet for response from all the participants in the debate. the song is: tu hai meira prem devata. manna de starts it and rafi follows.mukhda itself reveals rafi’s mastery but it is the antara where as usual manna de goes flat and rafi modulates his voice beautifully.
when rafi sings main gauri tu kant hamaara, main modulates ( ~ ) but when manna sings it is ( — ). this happens throughout this song . pl listen to this one and respond. you will see how ordinary is manna compared to rafi.
binu ji
mukesh was a big name in fifties.he was the first to get filmfare award for his songs in anari,the award was handed over to him by no less a personage than Nasser,the then president of egypt.his pseudonymous song for awara crossed national boundaries to become an iternational favourite.hats off to mukesh.he sang his heart out with whatever limitations he had.
the point is not that others were dumb.nobody who has any grounding in music would say that talat,mukesh,manna,hemant didn’t contrbute anything.there contribution is to be written in words of gold.
however,when we come to rafi,we are in an altogether a different universe.whatever he touched,he turned into gold.it was just the voice of the man,the kind of voice that had everything in it.about shakespeare it has been said that if nature was to write it would write like shakespeare.i can also say about rafi that if nature were to sing it would sing like rafi.
rafi’s is bhari dunya mein is sung with feeling and the notes flow freely not hindered by constraints of pitch and scale.mukesh had problems.he struggled when shifting the scales.besides he couldn’t modulate his voice easily.in many of his songs he seems to be labouring.my guru from whom i got training in classical music used to point out to some of my fellow learners that their throats were as if a lock had been placed on them.extend it to many of the singers who are brought up on this forum to be pitted against rafi.
look at this one:dil mein ik jaane tamanna ne jagah payee hai,aaj gulshan mein naheen ghar mein bahaar aayee hai. it is rafi’s unique voice.besides,the feeling that he can bring into the song.
one of the saddest songs ever sung is : toote hue khwabon ne hum ko yeh sikhaya hai,dil ne jise paaya tha aankhon ne gawaaya hai. the emotion that rafi can infuse into a song,not even great lata can do.therefore, i give lata half a point less than rafi. but you or others may not agree with that.in any case,whatever i may hold,lata is indeed very very great.
have you ever heard a musical lamentation like: bhagwan ik kasoor ki itani bari saza dunya teri yahi hai to dunya se main chala.
Hi Manish,
Your question is definitely valid. S-J have never been asked this question so we will never know why it was so. However, I have a few theories.
Like I said, the female singer (Lata or Asha) could either move up a couple of notes to the male S’ or a couple of notes down to the male mandra_Madhyam. Could they have pulled off the shift down ? I think they could have. Both singers have displayed their virtuosity in the lower notes. What would a lower female voice sound like in a duet? I don’t know. But here are some issues:
1. Higher notes have somehow been associated with emotive
appeal. This status is traditionally not enjoyed by lower notes
(caveat: I don’t have quotes or anything). Could a female
singing half an octave down summon the same “pukaar” as
the male voice?
2. It is difficult to produce low notes with a lot of power.
Additionally, female voices are typically less powerful than
male voices. In the days of primitive recording technology
it might have been difficult for the lower female voice to
compete with the male voice.
3. The orchestration (speaking of tandems). Assuming that much of the orchestration is retained across versions, once the selection
of instruments, orchestral lines, instrument tuning etc. are done, the MDs might not want to go through the exercise all over again. Some instruments will not adapt well to a different pitch. For example, if you try to tune a violin a couple of notes too low, it might go below the critical string tension and fail to produce the desired sounds. So, rather than have 20/30/40 duplicate instruments or retune them,
just get one “instrument” to adjust.
Interestingly, off the top of my head, I can think of a Lata-Rafi duet that was set to Lata’s Sa (and I think Rafi found it a tad uncomfortable): “paradesiyo.n se na a.nkhiyaa.N milaanaa” from “Jab Jab Phool Khile”.
Hi friends,
I checked the site after a week and found a lot of interesting posts. Among all these guys, I find this satyanash guy very interesting. He copies my line word for word and uses it against rafi and promotes kishore. What has this world come to?
All I said in a response to myk is that bengal had an abundance of home-grown talent and there was no need for rafi to compete in that market. I never said that he could not compete in that market. And satyansh beta, as far as I know kishore was not a home-grown talent. Has the Buddhadeb Bhattacharyya annexed Madhya Pradesh of late? Are you also a journalist like your friend who has no qualms about reporting one untruth after another? Or are you trying to emulate your lord who copied tunes left and right without any attribution? If you want to use my words, at least provide a reference (e.g., Haldar, Feb 2009).
The songs that I cited were nazrul geetis that were sung by stalwarts like manabendra mukherjee, firoza begum, s. d. burman and anup ghoshal; among the mainstream hindi film singers, only manna tasted some success. Even the most popular bengali singer of our time, hemanta mukherjee, was not really acceptable in this genre. For kishore kumar, there was a huge “no entry” sign; the idea of using kishore did not even cross anyone’s mind.
Rafi, as was his style, broke into this genre with ease. Listen to this song; it has “class” written all over it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rZifBJ8KZ4
Satyansh beta, ab so jaa, nahin to gabbar aa jayega.
post 1635 mr binu nairjee
The day 14th february marks the birthday of a natural beauty named madhubala.
On this valentines day we salute the beautiful lady & her everlasting charms
Madhubalajee aap jaisee khoobsoorthi humne aaj tak nahee dekhi na shayad kabhi dekhenga!!!
May your soul rest in eternal peace
Dhaniram ji,
The song brindaban ka krishna kanhaiya was from Miss Mary in 1957, The music director was hemant kumar & sung by Rafi ji and lata ji. And you can find jamuna, telugu actress and jemini ganesan, tamil actor also starring in the films along with kishore kumar. This song tune composition is the original composition by sri s rajeswara rao, the great telugu music director (whom incidentally, I mentioned earlier in this forum). It is a telugu film missamma in 1955. In hindi, the tune for the song has been retained as it is, subject to minor changes in the paras. In telugu the song was rendered by A M Raja, whose voice was more or less similar to mukesh ji in hindi. The Hindi song is quite fantastic by rafi and lata, greater than the telugu number.
Rafi fan ji
Earlier, you had asked me to post some rafi ji number under the music direction of sri rajeswara rao. Kindly recall. I had confirmed that rafi ji had no songs in telugu under his music direction, but the above song from miss mary can be deemed as a song sung by rafi ji under the tune of sri rajeswara rao as he was the original composer.
Here is the above great song by rafi and lata. Hope music lovers enjoy this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wffPLIMru5s
1622- vishal, 1628 – singh, 1630 – MYK
Sir’s
Very fine messages. MYK saab, very detailed article. Rafi always stands rafi, wherever it may be. His tremendous charm and popularity is beyond anybody’s reach in playback singing. (not in other areas such as football etc. that is why I had quoted playback singing). In fact, recently, when I had a trip to andhra, in one of the news papers, I read that M S Viswanathan while inaugurating a statue of the telugu great ghantasala at Guntur, had made a statement that he (M S Viswanathan) was inspired only by two singers in his life one is mohd. rafi and another is Ghantasala. See what was the necessity for M S Viswanathan to quote rafi ji, while inaugurating a statue of ghantasala. See the influence of great mohd. rafi ji. Rafi ji’s popularity and stature was like that. He was popular and known to all the playback singers and music directors and was a icon in himself. As MYK saab observes, east or west, north or south, – I would add more – in India or Abroad, rafi saab’s popularity & charm is beyond question. All languages singers do quote rafi ji at one time or other, specially discussing about their icons and playback singing. But when discussion on rafi ji is on, such quotes on other singers do not follow. Because rafi stands rafi and that is beyond dispute.
MYK saab, arguments are only for time pass.
Dhaniram & MYK saab,
Many times you have quoted that lata can be compared fair and square to rafi. I personally feel that this is not so. The melody spark in the voice of rafi ji is superior to lata ji, which I have noted in many duets of both. Ultimately rafi stands rafi, the great rafi saab. Such spark is not present in voices either, kishore, talat, mukesh, manna dey, hemant or female singers asha etc.
Satyansh saab,
Manna dey though classically trained than rafi saab, cannot be compared to the great rafi, as rafi saab clearly envelopes manna dey by virtue of his so called ” unique voice”. Fine, I have appreciations for ghantasala, whom I have heard (in this forum through singh ji and raghavan ji & others) and felt him unique.
Arghya:
I never said Kishore was incapable of singing good songs. You missed the “mainstream†part of my statement. all songs you mentioned are excellent and I myself love them, but those are not what Kishore is perceived of by the mainstream multitude. There is an element of responsibility that Kishore bears in being “perceived†as frivolous (â€tomfoolery†as OP Nayyar described it), i.e. the way he approached music. His approach has diluted music to the extent that people with a vocal chord and a microphone think they can sing. Again this is an indirect fallout, but I am judging historical legacy not music per se. You need to understand that distinction.
Admittedly, Rafi has that crowd as well, in and around Razabazar, Calcutta. But that is the Rafi (lp,rd, ka) crowd (remember my classification)…Munna Aziz is not the “mainstream†Rafi listener, while Sudesh Bhosle (and not Satyajit Ray, who happened to be his relative too) represents the “mainstream†Kishore listener. I have also asked Kishore fans not to take this personally because it is not about individuals. It is about a cultural precedence leaving its mark as legacy.
Sobriety, mellowness, propriety and gravitas are not the things you immediately associate with Kishore’s songs. All/most of the songs you mentioned was sung before the seventies. If you follow my earlier post to Surajit, the Kishore of the fifties and sixties was closer to my heart. And it is the Kishore of the seventies that is the “mainstream” Kishore..If you talk of “Mohabbat ka chhota sa ek aashianaâ€, have you thought how many hundreds of these Rafi has sung? (leave out the voice comparison for a moment, that’s subjective)
PS: Let us not get into the “great man” topic. Madhubala’s soul will not pardon us.
Arghya:
I never said Kishore was incapable of singing good songs. You missed the “mainstream” part of my statement. all songs you mentioned are excellent and I myself love them, but those are not what Kishore is perceived of by the mainstream multitude. There is an element of responsibility that Kishore bears in being “perceived” as frivolous (“tomfoolery” as OP Nayyar described it), i.e. the way he approached music. His approach has diluted music to the extent that people with a vocal chord and a microphone think they can sing. Again this is an indirect fallout, but I am judging historical legacy not music per se. You need to understand that distinction.
Admittedly, Rafi has that crowd as well, in and around Razabazar, Calcutta. But Munna Aziz is not the “mainstream” Rafi listener, while Sudesh Bhosle (and not Satyajit Ray, who happened to be his relative too) represents the “mainstream” Kishore listener. I have also asked Kishore fans not to take this personally because it is not about individuals. It is about a cultural precedence leaving its mark as legacy.
Sobriety, mellowness, propriety and gravitas are not the things you immediately associate with Kishore’s songs. If you talk of “Mohabbat ka chhota sa ek aashianaâ€, have you thought how many hundreds of these Rafi has sung? (leave out the voice comparison for a moment, that’s subjective)
Dhaniram sir , post 1622 : like the song ” yeh mera diwana pan hai ya mohabbat ka suroor ” is a favourite song of my friend. the song of mukesh from yahodi filmed on dilip saaheb is tuned by s and j – very artistically.
many love-lorn students would sing this song for their sweet hearts in college life , then.
it was pure joy to hear the lament of a love-lorn friend, for it revealed the romantic longing of a person. recently we played this song live in a big s.j.concert and the same friend and his wife ( his lady love – then ) were seated just there to enjoy the song of their life – again, this time live.
the song mentioned by you “bari duniya me koyee bhi hamara na huwa” also must be sung by innumerable romantic men and women in their college days.
to be frank, i am not aware of two things.
a) what type of songs heart broken students sing these days. the youngsters tastes are so different today.
b) and, what made you like the song : bari duniya me koyee bhi hamara na huwa – so much.
its a fabulous song. and,
happy valentine day this saturday : 14 feb, 2009 to all fellow rafi lovers .
Surajit,
Why didn’t the MD’s accordingly adjust the scales of the female tandem songs? What is the need to have “Ehsaan Tera Hoga” sung by Lata closer towards the male pitch? To not do it isn’t making a lot of sense to me. It’s not going to change the tune and if anything the results of the song would be much better. I’d imagine the Junglee song would sound better if Lata wasn’t asked to go to such a superhuman pitch. I’m not formally trained in music so I ask.
“Aji Rooth Kar Ab Kahan Jayega” from Arzoo seemed to have the full length (therefore main?) version rendered by Lata but Rafi got only a little more than 2 minutes. Despite that, this also seems to be composed with a male singer in mind, am I right? I recall reading from Lata that she would complain to Jaikishan about the scales (and of course this isn’t due to her lacking range but the seemingly unsuitable scaling). Out of curiosity, do we know of any “opposite cases” where the male has to sing closer to the female pitch? This can be duets or tandems.
Yes, that’s an interesting point about Rafi taking 2 notes to rise up whereas Lata does it in one (and this the reason for Salil’s discontent). This was wisely pointed out to me before at RMIM (in my naive, silly thread) but I had forgotten. Anyway, don’t want to drag that topic again even if it’s always fun to discuss 🙂
Sudeep_dat(post 1617)
Come one day to meet me.. That day we will not talk about any “Khaaike pan banaras” or “Nainon me sapna” or even “Yeh jo maohabbat hai” for that matter, we would talk about ” Mohabbat ka chhota sa ek aashiana”, “Haal teri duniya ka tujhko nazar to aata hoga”, ” Aa mohabbat ki basti”, “Payalwali dekhna”, ” Husn bhi hai udaas”, “Jagmag jagmag karta nikla chand poonam ka”, ” Woh dekhe to unki inayat”, “Woh meri taraf yun chale aa rahe hai”, “Aami chini go chini tomaare”, ” Aamaar deep nebhano raat”, “Jin raaton ki bhor nahi hai”, “Panthi hoon main us path ka”, ” Aamaar maner ei mayur mahale”.. And to show people like you who go on ridiculing a master artiste like kishore kumar on commercial terms!!!
Also, i swear, there will be no references of bappi lahiri, amit kumar, sudesh bhosle or even rajesh roshan- we would talk about Satyajit Ray(you know na, who he is??), Hemanta Mukherjee, Lata Mangeshkar, Asha Bhosle, Pandit Rama Verma, Bhimsen Joshi to give their testimonials about kishore kumar…
Only comment then when you know the cultural contribution of an artist… Or be as big as that great human like kishore kumar and show the entire world that yes, sudeep can be bigger than KK and then comment KK was a commercial puppet!!!
moderators, this post has to go to sudeep!!
One more thing, along the lines of what I mentioned before. Opinions can also be facts, but when they go past the truth and turn into myth, or are not facts, and just nonsense, then as I mentioned it becomes a piece of rubbish, and a joke.
I have a quiz question:
Name the song RDB referred to as his “prized compostion” ?.
Would like to add that if one wants to post Non-Rafi song examples, atleast post decent ones, and not average ones. Also, don’t blow things out of proportion. I see many Non-Rafi songs being overhyped to a great extent.
Alessandro Del Piero, the Juve Legend, time and time again, some of his critics try to point out flaws, and everytime he proves them wrong. Recently he just received a standing ovation at Real Madrid after scoring two goals against Real in the Champions League, one of the very few players who have received such an honour from the crowd. His achievements are amazing, team titles, scoring titles, a World Cup, he has accomplished things players dream of, certainly one of the all-time Italian football greats, and at 34 he is getting better with age. He is arguably the deadliest dead-ball specialist in the game today. Rafi-saab, the greatest singer of all time, has already proven his critics wrong, and continues to do so even after his death. Some may try to find faults, but all they end up is making fools out of themselves, and then end up “enlightning” themselves on Rafi’s greatness, or keep on remaining in the dark. Ofcourse Rafi’s achievements, talent, skills, voice, range, variety, repertoire etc. is beyond that of any singer, its a proven fact. However the comparison to ADP in terms of some critics trying to take a bite out of the cake is apt, since all it does is drown those individuals further. All fields have their own greats, and I am not saying ADP or any great footballer for that matter is similar to Rafi. Footballers are ofcourse great in their own way too, as are singers etc. (with Rafi, his greatness is beyond anyone). My point is, and that too just an example, about some critics vis a vis ADP and Rafi.
So far, what Surajit, Satyansh (and others) have been doing is simple propoganda, that Rafi wasn’t able to handle complex taans, he wasn’t able to do this, he wasn’t able to do that, and then more, and more……..and more…….and more…..”yaaaaaaawwwnnnn” (I think I’m falling asleep reading their same funny comments over and over again). They are “trying” to turn their subjective claims into facts (as Sudip mentioned), and in the process, have actually fooled a few to join on the bandwagon. What is the point of coming to this site and pointing out myths ?. Isn’t it such a waste of time ?. I don’t find anything contructive in their posts, or anything new that I can learn, its just the same boring thing over and over again. Rather, it only re-affirms my belief and the belief of others, that Rafi is so great, that people, left and right, north and south, east and west, whether it be Ghantasala fans, Kishore fans, Talat fans, Mukesh fans, and now Manna fans etc. (and these are fanatical fans mind you) want to compare their idols to Rafi and at times bring Rafi down because they know he is unmatched. As I mentioned before, I don’t think these people can handle that a man from Lahore was the greatest singer of all time. It boils their blood, and they are jealous, that how can one man have so much talent ?. Well Thanks to everyone for reminding us yet again that Rafi is incomparable, much appreciated :). Rafi is truly the benchmark, no one can dispute that.
Those who say Rafi was weak in handling complex taans need to learn classical music, and then make such foolish statements. There are examples galore where Rafi has handled not only complex taans, but difficult melody progressions with utmost ease. He had the most flexible voice, and his skills were beyond any male singer, including Manna who was the more trained. The only singer arguably capable of matching Rafi in this aspect, and in overall skill is Lata. Time and Time again Dhaniram has mentioned that Lata and Rafi would be the most apt comparison, but I think what he has said has fallen on deaf years (as usually by the fanatics here). If you stetch that a bit further, then Asha can also come in for comparison purposes, especially with her skills at singing qawwali’s. But that it is, all others (with the exception of Yesudas and Ghantasala in some genres) fall short.
Mind you, Pandit Gyan Prakash Ghosh, the doyen of classical music, and the founder of the Calcutta gharana, considered Rafi to be the best exponent in classical music. This is just the tip of the iceberg, add to that Manna, Lata, Naushad, Ilayaraaja (who has invented Carnatic raags) and many more hail Rafi’s classical abilities, as well as his talent, and Rafi’s songs are proof of that, its not a mystery, just listen to his wonderful songs. There is simply no match for Rafi at all, whether you like it or not. Try to limit him to any genre (you will fail doing that) or to find a better set of songs, whether it be romantic, sad, classical, qawwali, bhajan, ghazal, western etc. and Rafi’s songs will come out on top (refer to the main article on this thread). His voice, range, skills, versatility, talent etc. (as I mentioned) are in a league of its own, that it has no comparison.
One can write all they want, compare all they want, try and bring down Rafi all they want, it doesn’t matter, it won’t change the truth, nor change history, nor diminish the fact that Rafi was the best. On a side note, what is this fixation by some to include Kishore, or sidebracket him with Rafi when the two were poles a part ?. Please save yourself further embarrasment by not putting these two in the same sentence. Any knowledgeable music mind clearly knows the difference, but ofcourse bias from selected individuals creep in. For example, It’s like saying Rafi had great ghazals but Kishore also attempted to sing some, and then go on and quote a pedestrian “Mere deewanepan ki bhi”. I see a lot of hypothetical statements with Kishore (and others), that they could do this, or could do that, but never really did it, but the potential was there. Don’t concentrate on potential, concentrate on what actually happened. If it didn’t happen, it means there was no potential, as simple as that. Don’t give any excuses either. Mind you, based on my experience, its mostly Kishore fans (compared to fans of other artists) that bring up the most ridiculous statements.
I find nothing exceptional in any of the Lata, Manna or Asha etc. songs mentioned when it comes to taans. Rafi has rendered similar (and greater) level of taans in many songs. Again, one just has to listen to those songs, and one can see this very fact, it doesn’t take a scientist or a surgeon to figure it out. The examples given of Manna’s tough songs, or Ghantasala songs or songs by other singers are not a patch on any of Rafi’s songs, which are by far the hardest to sing. I have repeatedly mentioned the song “Likhar tera naam zamin par” composed by Jaidev from Laila Majnu, a litmus test (as Cherian-ji would put it) for all singers, and asked anyone for a song by any singer that is in a similar mould. The highs, the lows, the harkatein, the taans, the pitch and the artistry in this gem would leave any other singer breathless. This is just one song, I am not even mentioning other countless difficult Rafi songs. Actually let me just add another one in, “Jaane kahan dekha hai” from Biwi Aur Makaan composed by Hemant Kumar.
I’m not sure if these writers who write rubbish here think individuals on this forum are fools to accept all and sundry from them. It seems to me, they feel their word is the last word, which ofcourse it isn’t, its only comedy. Anyone who associates another singer in Rafi’s league or class, or anyone above him, loses a bit of credibility right there. If you add bogus examples to go with it (like we have had on this forum), or foolish statements like “he was only good in so and so parts” etc., more credibility is lost. Everyone has an opinion, and opinions can also be facts, but when an opinion is nonsense, one which is very obvious, then it just becomes a piece of rubbish. I urge others not to take recent anti-Rafi post very seriously, as Rafi is beyond anything, its a universal truth. These writers may continue to bang their heads against a wall (that too on a Rafi forum), but just ignore it. As I said, instead of contributing something useful, all I see is the same old myths and nonsense. This forum is far too great for such useless posts, but I’m afraid with the amount of nonsense being written, it will soon lose its shine.
Remember, we are talking about the singer whom everyone from KC Dey to SDB to Ilyaraaja to MS Viswanathan to Yesudas to Kishore to Pandit Gyan Prakash Ghosh to a counteless number of other artists hailed as the first and last word in singing. One may say, “who cares”, we don’t need the opinion of others, we have our own knowledge. True one may have knowledge, in that case, one should (with no bias) acknowledge Rafi’s greatness. If one has knowledge (with a bias) one will know about Rafi’s greatness but not admit it. However, the opinions of those rooted in music definitely matter, as they know music more than anyone on this and other forums, so ofcourse opinions from those in music is one of the factors in differentiating musical talent. We are all capable of making our own judgements, but when these judgements clearly show bias, or are foolish, it becomes a joke. No other singer is in Rafi’s class and league.
I hope veterans of this forum like P. Haldar, XXX, Sudip, Singh, Dhani Ram, Anil Cherian, Anmol Singh, HV Guru Murthy, Binu Nair etc. can swing things in the right direction, and start some sensible topics for a meaningful discussion, instead of the same old rants here and there by certain individuals. If one can’t accept Rafi’s greatness, and have such a problem with anything related to his greatness, then go and write somewhere else.
Hi,
Irrespective of the notes and octaves that each artist touched upon (nice debate though) during the rendition of ‘Tasveer…’ and the politics surrounding the recording, for most folks, the end result is all that matters. The end result is that Lata seems to be screeching at the top of her lungs in the antara portion ‘Naainon ka kajra’ that I personally find extremely jarring and a showstopper. Rafi, on the other end, has made it sound extremely smooth and well-controlled without sounding compromised on the scale or the desired pitch. Does not matter whether she hit the right notes or not….she just could not carry it in the right matter.
That, my friends, is the bottom-line.
Prabhanjan ji – 1604
This is purely reply to your post on spb and his song.
You have raised the issue in the main article by swaminathan iyer ji regarding shankarabharanamo song (this is tamil pronounciation) actually, in telugu the film is sankarabharanam and not shankarabharanam (see the difference sh and sa ) sa – is the correct and original pronounciation of sanskrit and is chaste. (In music sa is used as note and not sha) Shankara is not pure original pronounciation – SPB pronounces in this way, whereas you note ghantasala is completely chaste in all his pronounciations – fully original & perfect in all his renditions. That’s why many people find fault with spb’s way of pronounciation itself in some places. Coming back to your version of the song sankara or shankara as it may be, in my view, it is really not a tough song, rather there is another song which is ragam tanam pallavi from sankarabharanam film which is more tougher and beautifully composed and sung by spb (subject to reservations from chaste pronounciation again). Rather in fact, spb specialisation lies in some break song numbers from 90’s mainly composed by illayaraja. Spb was successful only in those break ranges which were much composed in 80’s . Again when classical touches moved in 90’s by A R Rehman, spb started diminishing and shankar mahadevan and other singers joined the race. I was given to understand that Balamuralikrishna found even fault with spb in the sankarabharanam songs, technically. SPB claims he is not a trained musician. Despite this, he has great concentration and grasping skills of musical tunes, this was his strength. Further, he has got skills of mimicking respective artists also. He was able to sing in the particular artists voice. In fact, I was also given to understand that in early 70’s ghantasala predicted that spb will rule the telugu industry one day and it happened, though it took spb to take 6 years (after passing away of ghantasala) to get recognition from songs in sankarabharanam ( in 1980).
Sri MYK ji and other friends,
Very lot has been discussed about comparisons and the same thing is being surfacing again and again – old wine in new bottle. Let us share some “deviating from the topic” moments (with the kind permission of the moderator pl.) which have nothing to do with anybody but surely to be appreciated by all.
Friends, the indian film industry is very great industry and particularly the music from 50’s to 70’s is certainly the top music ever composed in film history of india (any language) because that was the period when all elements came in consensus i.e singers, actors, music directors etc. all of whom had the oustanding capabilities to their respective roles. The total mix of them all put together produced oustanding results in terms of great films and music renditions. Today you cannot find such outstanding and orginally talented contributions.
In this context, we may discuss about another noted singer from tamil, sri sounderrajan, who was popularly called as tamil ghantasala and who has to his contribution many fine songs. He was virtually the singer for the erstwhile tamil greats, sivaji ganesan etc. Today, sadly nobody cares about him, he is spending remembering his old days. Same is case with p suseela, who once upon was so accomplished, has moved in the realm of time and today everyone knows her position. Similar is spb today spending time in tv programmes.
MYK JI,
In the above context, (sounderrajan, spb and p suseela) i personally feel that rafi, ghantasala, kishore etc. were fortunate enough to have passed away when they were at their peak. All these greats have left in their 50’s. In fact, one of my telugu associate used to tell me that ghantasala had a strong desire to leave when he was at his peak, and he stated that if he lives, with age all achievements and talents will vanish and you will not be cared and respected similar to earlier days. Since the greats have left when they were at their peak, their memories and greatness etc. linger fresh in the minds of the people and they think today that if they were alive they would have contributed more and like that but strictly with age capabilities will certainly decrease. I hence consider them quite fortunate. They have remained as twinkling stars today. What do you say MYK Sir.
anilji and murthyji
anil ji, thanks for the internet sites.
murthy ji,namaskar,thanks for correcting the error.
a wonderful sad song which i used to sing in my college days is: is bari dunya mein koi bhi hamara na hua
one of rafi’s myriads of virtues as singer and not to be found elsewhere is the way he addresses his words to the audience,whether that audience is the screen beloved or the ordinary listener.he does not only sing but communicates.some songs that come to mind are:
1 paas baitho tabiyat behal jaayegi
2 na jhatko zulf se paani
3 jaane bahaar husn tera bemisaal hai
4 main nighahein tere chehare se hataon kaise
5 ab kya misaal doon main tumhaare shabaab ki
6 hai tabassum tera
7 hai kali kali ke lab par
8 is rang badalti dunya mein insaan ki neeyat theek naheen
surajit,satyansh and all others
disagreement is: you believe that there have been a number of good singers in hfm and rafi is one of them; i believe that rafi is the best of the lot and is far ahead of others.
if you hold a position different from what i have stated,pl correct me.
i have dropped ji as requested by you,satyansh. i was in 7th class when i sang sau bar janam leinge for the first time at a school function.from mid fifties right through eighties,it was sacrilegious to compare anybody to rafi.even in kishore’s heyday,nobody ever said that rafi had been outstripped.mukesh used to create occasional waves but manna dey hardly ever.even in raj kapoor’s movies,rafi would be present.he was there in chhalia. i was in 8th when i saw nazraana,a raj kapoor movie with lovely mukesh songs but even then i was bowled over by rafi song baazi kisi ne pyar ki jeeti ya haar di.if you haven’t heard the songs of nazraana,pl do and you will get some idea of what i mean by range.the way rafi starts dekh pyaasa tujhe etc is mind blowing.this is what rafi could do and this is beyond the reach of anybody.now i don’t say that others can’t reach such scales.their voice cracks up.just at that time,came parvarish.i was twelve.already deeply in love with music and could discern what was good in music.mukesh sang an all time favourite mujhe tum se kuchh bhi na chahiye or was it bhooli hui yaado? whichever it was ,it was mukesh at his best.but there was a duet in parvarish jis pyar mein yeh haal ho us pyar se tauba.mukesh was a total flop in comarison with rafi.rafi went through all the notes like a leveret and mukesh didn’t know how to sing.sangam came when i was in 10th.again fantastic mukesh numbers.but the song yeh meira prem patra showed a differnent and higher class.if you want to notice mukesh’s limitations visa vis rafi,listen to dil ne phir yaad kiya.
talat,manna,mukesh,hemant are all very dear to me.i love to hear jalte hain jis ke liye,jab chhaye kabhi saawan ki ghata,ai meire dil etc.i sing them fairly well myself.manna de’s one song which you have probably not mentioned jhanak jhanak tori baaje payalia is a great favourite.hemant’s duets with lata are simply other worldly:aa neel gagan tale,yeh raat yeh chandni phir kahaan.
as such it is painful for me to write anything to discredit any of them.it is only with reference to rafi that i find that they are all severely deficient.rafi has sung such a variety of songs with such mastery,grace and beauty that listening to him alone gives you an entire range of musical experience.questions like who could also have sung what are merely academic,just talking points,without any relevance.
manna de has said that he used to listen to rafi in amazement and what he could create nobody could.about two years back,manna de was interviewed on ndtv by shekhar suman,editor of indian express, in the programme walk the talk.i couldn’t hear the interview but the next day the transcript of the interview was published in the indian express.the editor asked manna de why he had not occupied the same position in hindi film music as rafi,mukesh and kishore.manna de said,” obviously something was lacking in me”.he complimented kishore also. but it was rafi whom he eulogised.why is it that manna eulogises rafi repeatedly and not others and also says that rafi was far ahead of him? if it is mere ceremony,why doesn’t he praise others also? of mukesh he has always been critical.in that interview he called mukesh just a goody goody singer.and talat in an interview in 90’s said that he(talat) was eased out of film music while mukesh survived because of raj kapoor.
i am extremely sorry to say this as it is like flinging mud at great men who are our icons. but since rafi is also being compromised by arguments of certain types,we have also to present our counterpoint. and the fact is that manna de was a grand failure.satyansh,you have shortcircuited my argument that the reason for manna’s failure was that he had a wooden voice.if wooden is too metaphorical,let me state it in simple words that manna de was rejected by the mds and the public in the golden phase of hindi film music because he didn’t have rafi’s voice and rafi was a grand success because he had rafi’s voice.period.
satyansh,we all have our choices.it has been repeatedly said on this forum that tastes for music are subjective.if tastes are subjective,where is the scope for any debate? and yet the debate goes on. you like manna de’s bhajans.to me bhagwan ka mandir hai insaaf ka ghar hai seems to be the ultimate thing in bhajan singing.some of the other bhajans by rafi have been mentioned by others.in my younger days brindaban ka krishan kanhaiya,bari der bhai nand lala,radhike toone bansuri churayee used to be very popular.
speculating what one could have sung is futile.rafi sang the highest number of songs in the male category in a life shorter than all the other great male singers in many different languages including his mother tongue punjabi.he sang the highest number of duets with each of the top female singers viz lata,asha,suraiyya,geeta dutt,suman kalyanpur,mubarak begum and shamshaad begum(with the last even in punjabi teri kanakan di raakhi mundya hun main naiyon behandi). whenever there is a programme of theme songs on a radio channel(e.g. radio world space),whatever be the theme some rafi songs will invariably be there.on raakhi even raakhi dhaagon ka tyohaar. all these are facts and not the product of my imagination.
now if a male singer whose contribution to hindi film music is so tremendous and is unrivalled except by lata is not to be regarded as the greatest,should this sobriquet go to someone who is a mere pigmy( some friends have been offended by this word.my purpose is just to evaluate the comparative contribution of different singers and not to devalue anybody in absolute terms)
citing an authority in support of one’s argument is a standard scholarly practice.for example,yesudas’s stature as a singer and specialist in music is unquestionable.if he says that rafi is the best indian singer,we have to heed him because he is familiar with the music world of both the south and the north.backed up by a man of such high stature,we,the fans of rafi,have no reason to feel that we are a group of isolated idiots fighting to save the throne of a falllen emperor.
meanwhile,i would like to know your views on how manna de would have sungthis song from the film yeh raaste hain pyar ke:
zulf lehrai teri aur meri taqdeer bani….. koi mujh se pooche ki tum mere kya ho.
this song has some range.
there is another from kabuliwalla: ya kurbaan,dekhen ge kya woh surat tuhi bata khudaya.
Hi Anil Cherian,
You are welcome to try it on the keyboard. However, you misunderstood the notes I had given.
Please note that ‘ means notes in the third octave.
Lata goes:
Nainon Ka Kajra –
G p S’ G’ R’R’R’
So, in one word – Nainon, she goes – Ga pa Sa’ (that is saa in the third octave).
sudip_dat:
This is the last I am going to debate on this topic of Rafi/Manna Dey unless something strange crops up again. I don’t want to make anybody feel bad. My point was only to clear misconceptions that were being propogated. You might want to read the earlier posts and see how I joined the discussion.
“…The whole idea that Rafi had to be the best in everything to be the greatest contributor is bizarre, ludicrous and laughable…”
Precisely, that is exactly what many Rafi fans on this and other forums have been saying – that he was the best at semi-classical, range, etc. If someone did not like a certain aspect of Rafi, that person is branded as not knowing music or other strange things. Some Rafi fans show disdain for other respectable personalities and disregard any valid points that are not in favor of creating a bloated view of Rafi. You can simple browse to earlier pages and read for yourself. To debunk those myths is a major point of the debate for me and many others alike. I am not sure if you actually missed that point.
“…It is amazing that you relegating points against Manna in the zone of “subjectivityâ€, while claiming that the points against Rafi are “facts ”
Not at all – I have admitted and personally revealed many things not in favor of Manna Dey. If I believe he is better at something, I provide a counter. For example, I have given examples of songs in different laya for Manna Dey where he is very steady. You just did not respond to that and I am fine with that. I think you understand music, so you’ll get the drift. I am intentionally not elaborating. I can get into a lot more detail, but it seems meaningless since it might lead to potentially strange comments. I have always said (way before I joined this forum) that Rafi and Kishore’s adaptation of texture is superior to Manna Dey and mention the perception that Manna Dey’s voice did not suit every actor of his time on many occassions. Also, I like Rafi’s sweet (and “bold ‘n’ sweet” like the one on Rishi Kapoor, et. al.) voice(s) and Kishore’s many voice(s).
“…I think in a way, though inadvertently, you have brought out Rafi’s greatness that I have been striving to convey…”
Not inadvertently, I actually enjoy that aspect of Rafi. Read my older posts or even on my site – even the portion where I talk about Manna Dey. See the date on that post – it’s way before we had any discussions. http://satyansh.com/smf/index.php?topic=9.0
I often talk about Rafi’s sweet voice and ability to maintain that sweetness at higher range. Here, people were saying different things about range and that Rafi was the best at semi-classical/classical singing that I was challenging. I really don’t want to get into this discussion and am saying what follows (at a higher level) just for the sake of information. There is a difference between a sweet alaap and maintaining the essence of a raga in an alaap. In a taan, for simpler distinctions one has to pay attention to the concept of hitting distinct notes. The distinction becomes “relatively” easier to make even if one listens to classical songs for a while. Good guidance certainly helps a lot in developing this understanding.
Also, I think you understand what I am saying about Bengali songs. No disrespect meant to anybody.
I will give you a specific example as to one of the reasons why I asked various questions like about Sonu’s rendition of “O Duniya Ke Rakhwale”. Somebody sent me an email a while back pointing out this comment. You will see comments by many Rafi fans saying random stuff about this key and that note which are just wrong. My purpose was to debunk that. Please do know that I sincerely did not mean to hurt your feelings in any way. I hope you understand that.
http://www.yoodleeyoo.com/kishore-diary/an-endless-feud-between-the-fans-of-mohammed-rafi-and-kishore-kumar.html/comment-page-1/#comments
“…O DUNIYA KE RAKHWALE†IS THE HARDEST SONG IN THE ENTIRE WORLD SUNG BY RAFI…” – Comment No. 19 by irony81 on May 12th, 2007 at 8:58 am
Ironically, the person goes by the alias “irony81” :).
Abhishek ji,
I hope you realize that I have not disrespected anybody in any of my posts. Even when people have said rude things, I have ignored them or called them out, but avoided saying rude things back. You can call that being diplomatic or courteous – whatever you please. Would you rather I stoop to the level of name-calling? Many people have agreed with my comments here and encouraged me to stay and post. I read people even asked Surajit to leave very rudely at one point of time, so I take your statement as a complement :). Given what you are suggesting I do, see the manner in which I am replying to you as well. Again, you can call it being diplomatic or courteous – whatever you please. What is wrong if I am debunking/challenging a few myths? I have stated my reasons for doing so earlier. It might be hard to digest or maybe people completely disagree with me, but I hope atleast a few understand some of what I have discussed in parts. I think some people might have been flustered because some of us have studied music and are presenting genuine counters that they are aware of, but don’t want to admit to.
“…i feel u have missed the basic point here, we r talking abt playback singing wch means a good voice n great control over expressions n very less abt the real techicalities of music…”
Are you serious? Do you think those are the only 2 factors for evaluating playback singers. Don’t you think it would be hard for most singers to stand ground against Kishore if you take out certain real technicalities of music as you put it? Why did you think my favorite is Manna Dey? Is it because I rate him higher than everybody else based upon certain criteria? :). That being said, you can decide on whatever factors you consider important and pick a singer you like, but how can one justify the ridiculous things being said about other singers and MDs here? Do you see my point? If you had stood up and stopped some Rafi fans from saying nasty things earlier (maybe you did, I just didn’t see you object to any of that), some of us wouldn’t have to use “technicalities” to debate anything.
I like “sukh ke sab saathi”. Also “Mann Tarpat Hari Darshan” is one of my favorite bhajans.
Okay, change of topic now. Here are some random songs of Rafi.
“Mujhe Le Chalo” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmbKFZuSeag –
“…Mujhe Le Chalo, Aaj Phir Uss Gali Mein, Jahan Pehle Pehle Yeh Dil Ladkhadaaya.
Vo Duniya, Vo Meri Mohabbat Ki Duniya, Jahan Se Mai Betaabiyaan Leke Aaya…”
“Brindaban Ka Krishan Kanhaiya” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhqneAj-EQI
“Jeet Hi Lenge Baazi Hum Tum” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmddEDxEeqE
“Tang Aa Chuke Hain Kashmakash-e-zindagi Se Hum” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPjImFet29E – “…Lo Aaj Humne Tod Diya Rishta-e-umeed, Lo Ab Kabhi Gila Na Karenge Kissi Se Hum…”
Surajit,
It most certainly displays Lata’s genius. Asha is awesome too. It is hard to pick between the two. Lata and Manna Dey have some awesome “light” numbers.
Hi Sudip,
Your retaliation is understandable.
However, just like you have said that your views on Kishore are not meant to be taken personally, so are my views on Rafi.
I have never targetted either you or your opinions directly, because you present your views rationally. However, there are many people here who claim that Rafi was superior to every singer in every category. Many fans here claim that Rafi was better than Lata, Asha, and Manna Dey in classical songs, better than Talat in ghazals, better than Kishore in comedy songs and yodelling, better than Mukesh in sad songs. In short, Rafi can do everything better than every other singer, even if some of the aspects are a speciality of that singer. I am sorry to have butted in this thread, but if someone makes the claim that Rafi sang classical songs better than Lata without giving any further analysis, I find it hard not to respond.
Secondly, like you rightly said, most people here associate Kishore’s calibre based on his 1972-1976 output. That is the identity that people have about Kishore. It is unfortunate because Kishore’s capabilities are more reflected by the fewer songs he sang from the late ’40’s to the mid-’60’s. And it irks me when people jump to conclusions without having heard the full sample of songs.
I agree about your point regarding Rafi’s cultural impact across generations viz. a viz. Kishore’s cultural impact. And I don’t feel any need to defend against it because Rafi’s popularity is well deserved.
About “K for Kishore”, the less said the better. It was the most disgusting music show in recent times. The participants were more like fancy dress artists rather than singers. It is indeed unfortunate, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Kishore was turning in his grave at the atrocious singing of his chelas in that much publicized show.
It would be sad if you have to leave the forum because of me or Satyansh.
Satyansh ji,
I shall stress upon the unchallenged popularity of rafi ji and comparison factor with other singers. After reading this, You and all others will agree with me that rafi ji is the most popularised singer beyond dispute and any discussion on his popularity point of view with other singers in India would be a sheer waste of time.
Your comments are well noted. Well, comparison with Manna dey, kishore, talat or Mukesh adopting rafi ji as benchmark indeed makes some platform for comparison. Even comparing him with lata, asha or others in hindi would be fine. I do personally view that bringing ghantasala in comparison to rafi may not make sense in a true way. Though playback singing was common to both, one is a carnatic legend and the other one is a hindusthani – rafi ji, again manna dey, lata etc. are hindusthani specialist i.e. from a playback singing point of view only and not from a view of classical musician. True, ghantasala is surely great & accomplished singer and unique in his own style & specialisation in the south based filmy singing industry, almost like rafi’s s status in hindi and as someone observes here, discussions with the southern film singers vs ghantasala would be better instead of comparison with rafi-ghantasala as the music compositions and specialisations are altogether different corners – hindusthani and carnatic. Any how, I agree that certain south based filmy singers namely ghantasala was good at hindusthani renditions also but as his contribution is mainly concentrated on the southern based filmy and carnatic styles, it would be good if discussions are initiated among southern singers. Rafi-ghantasala comparison, or comparison with rafi with any other south based singer also, I think is surely somewhat which may not be subject to healthy analysis due to the difference in stream factors involved. Fine, Manna dey or kishore or talat, the stream factors being similar, there can be comparison and discussion with rafi ji. And as many knew in such comparison with hindi singers, including yourself, the melodious voice of rafi ji has been the inspiration for all hindi singers through out and rafi ji alone was the singer who won admiration of all other hindi singers and music directors such as beginning from saigal to ending at laxmikant pyarelal.
Much of the population are ordinary individuals and no body can expect them to have good & true knowledge about music. Such population can appreciate good and melodious voice only and cannot concentrate whether the voice is specialised from a musical point of view etc. In this appealing category with reference to the large population base, rafi ji earns a special place in the hearts of such large population. His voice was such that which has appreciated by many masses and as such his popularity. Not that kishore, manna, talat, kishore etc. were not popular, but it was limited when compared to rafi ji. Similarly, on ghantasala too, though accomplished and unique & appreciated like rafi among southern masses, his area was restricted and limited from popularity wise.
Rafi ji thus unanimously enjoys unchallenged popularity among all other playback singers of India (though I recall that comparisons with him have to be made only in his stream – hindi singers for a healthy analysis.) I hope you catch my point.
Abhishek Taparia(Post 1618)
Good views..A bit emotional but good one.. “Dukh ke sab saathi” u mentioned … I would add “Man tarapat hari darshan” also to that.. It hardly matters what or how many one singer sings..it is bout the impact what he leaves behind! This is the greatness of Rafisaab or Kishoreda.. Rafisaab never sounded like a tape recorder of classical music, in spite of having such a deep knowledge and capability.. His classical songs are close to normal people like u and me, only because the way of rendition.. He could sing toughest of toughest songs making it sound easy to hear for the audience!!
In India, today, there will be many technically trained singer to sing “Madhuban me radhika” or “Kuhu kuhu bole koyeliya”.. You won;t be able to find any “technical” fault in their singing also.. But they can never match rafisaab, because they can never carry the “soul” alongwith technicalities which Rafisaab used to..
S D Burman once told(Naushad saab actually told this as a reference on TV) it is very easy to sing difficult songs in difficult way but it is very difficult to sing difficult songs in an easy way…Burmanda’s choice of male singers(unke do aankhon ke taare)always strengthened his comments!! The world still gets mesmerized by the heavenly voices of rafisaab and Kishoreda!!
Hi all:
Let me try and clarify some of the confusing theories Mr. Surajit’s been propogating as of late. The theory on Rafisahab not hitting the right note in “tasweer tere dil…” has been going rounds in many musical circles and it was certainly not originated by Mr.Surajit, I’ve read the originals in some forums (as I mentione before). I can’t verify the correctness of the notes mentioned in this theory now but will be doing it in a few days time (when I get hold of a keyboard). Assuming that Rafisahab did indeed sing ‘dha’ for Lataji’s ‘sa’, let’s see whether Lataji did a swifter ascent. Her notes are ga-…(1 note gap)…-pa-…(2 notes gap)….-sa-…. (1 note gap)….- ga. It’s a rather orderly progression with a sweep of 1-2 notes at each turn. Now to Rafisahab’s notes. They are ga-..(1 note gap)…pa…dha..-..(3 notes gap)..-ga. Now which is a swifter, more rapid ascent? Anyway this ‘right’ notes thing is not a huge deal in Indian light singing, as long as you are not off-scale and sound nice. This very song is a good example of the singer singing ‘wrong’ notes (if at all he did it) sounding smoother thru the transition than the one who hit the right ones.
To continue with the assumption that Rafisahab hit the wrong note, I wouldn’t buy the theory that he was incapable of hitting that particular ‘sa’, rather he simply interpreted the tune differently. There are scores of songs where Rafisahab’s done absolutely phenomenal crisp, swift note shifts and there’s nobody to rival him in HFM in this department. Here are a few of them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqnkz4iF_3I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwLd77RvHLU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_AfFkaX7dQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt64ijB9ZRs
I agree with Mr.Surajit on Salilda. Much as I admire him for all those assymetric (almost crazy) notes progression, I sometimes feel like telling him “please, let’s settle for a more predictable route, this time”.
Please wait for my clarification on male and female voices.
Hi Satyansh,
Well, I had to share those songs, :-). Puts into perspective as to how gifted Lata was. There are not too many Lata-Manna duets that pits their classical strengths against each other. While Manna Dey is fine through most of the song, his taans are not as crisp or precise as Lata’s are. He seems a tad out of control when executing them. Maybe there are better examples, but I need to dig a lot more.
Even Asha was equally good when it came to semi-classical numbers.
Here is one such number from the movie “Lal Pathar” in raga Jaijaivanti (just hear the electrifying taans she comes up with):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_UdLKA1JAs
And here is another such Lata-Asha duet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlP9akjezn0
That said, I do think that the female singing voice, on average, somehow has more “definition” and therefore is more crisp when it comes to taans.
satyansh sir,
with due respect to u and all ur findings i feel tht u r here to ridicule Rafisaab ur every statement sounds diplomatic some of ur statements have been- i like rafi but manna is better, rafi is good but he struggles here n there i like bhajans sung by manna dey et al. forget all the other bhajans sung by rafisaab only one bhajan ‘sukh ke sab saathi’ is good enuf to swipe all the bhajans sung by manna dey(ofcourse u need to have an ear for tht) all this time i was quiet coz to be frank i dont possess the kind of knowledge some of u have but what i have is a sense of good music n emotions expressed by the songs. i feel u have missed the basic point here, we r talking abt playback singing wch means a good voice n great control over expressions n very less abt the real techicalities of music. if it wud be all abt music in its pure form thn most of the singers wud be out of their jobs.
also an untrained singer like kishore wud not be more popular than rafi,lata,asha,ur fav manna….. its all about the way u touch ppls chord.. thts y many ppl like kishore coz his songs r easy to hum….
i feel u wud be better off to a manna dey forum where u wud find more ppl appreciating and agreeing with ur comments
This was supposed to be my parting post. But given the tirade against Rafi in this forum, I am compelled to post this
—————————————————————————————–
—————————————————————————————–
I personally love Rafi because he appeals to my senses-as simple as that. That’s subjective. But I do not care about anything else, as the Upanishads put long back “Srabanendriya grayyhottad dhanirer srutibhabet”.
the only other fact that is well-accepted, if not universally, is that Rafi had the greatest contribution among male singers. This had been established in several rankings, awards, etc, conferred not by Rafi fans, but by contemporary musicians and pundits. The whole idea that Rafi had to be the best in everything to be the greatest contributor is bizarre, ludicrous and laughable.
For a moment, let us try to evaluate Pele, the greatest soccer player along some of the arguments and counter-arguments that we had here. One might argue that Pele is “not the greatest soccer player”, because he did not have the:
– goalkeeping skills of Gordon Banks
– the tackling of Maldini
– the header of Paolo Rossi
– the left foot dribbling of Maradona
– the freekick of Beckham
– the all round stamina of Zindene Zidane
– the opportunism of Marco Van Basten
Isn’t it ridiculous? Its that easy to dethrone someone whose contributions have been well-established and well-recognized. The opportunistic injections of Ghantasala, Manna, Kishore, Mukesh, Yesudas simply smirks of that kind of streetside debate that centers around points and misses out on the totality.
Rafi had immense cultural and commercial contribution that’s second only (possibly) to Lata. Kishore had a huge commercial contribution, though I am not sure of his cultural legacy. In one of the earlier posts to Surajit, I had mentioned that I never doubt Kishore’s ability to render some of the songs across several vocal ranges. But his cultural legacy is debatable and needs scrutiny. At the risk of being the target of Kishore fans, I would say Kishore appealed primarily to one cultural demography. The foppish crowd (that Haldar generalizes as “orkut babes”), evidenced by the “buttoned at the navel, back brushed” folks who turned up a participants and judges in “K for Kishore” (Surajit, Satyansh: Please, please do not take personally. I do acknowledge the exceptional taste and knowledge of individuals). That’s the reason Kumar Sanu (with vocal skills nowhere compared to Kishore) could recreate the “Kishore 1972-1976 commercial effect” among the masses between 1989-1996. This has to do with the way Kishore approached music in totality, something that manifested in his gayki. I would therefore give Kishore full marks in commercial contribution and no so much in terms of cultural contribution.
Rafi appealed to 3 distinct cultural demographies, represented by his music directors. I call it the “Naushad, Madan Mohan, Roshan” crowd, the “OP, SJ, SD” crowd, and the “LP, KA, RD” crowd. I have come across several Rafi fans who would not mix the three. Someone like Dhaniram would possibly stay away from the last category. I am sure Surajit can churn out several excellent Kishore numbers from the late forties, but that is not what Kishore’s mainstream identity is.
The fact that I spent one full paragraph in Kishore should be taken positively because others do not have his commercial effect (“X” effect as satyansh would call it). Talat, Manna, Hemant on the other hand, possibly had a more sober cultural legacy but were not as successful commercially.
Peace..
Satyansh:
You are correct-by quivering I mean “vibratory, that’s unintentionalâ€. And lack of that is not the same as a flat voice. Taking Manna aside, that was the difference between Rafi and Mahendra Kapoor. You can distinguish Mahendra Kapoor’s voice from Rafi’s in a second because he would not hold steady. It is amazing that you relegating points against Manna in the zone of “subjectivityâ€, while claiming that the points against Rafi are “factsâ€. I would still maintain Manna “vibrates†(if you prefer that over “quiversâ€) in slow songs and that takes the depth out of these songs. In fast songs, those vibrations act to his advantage and do not appear as strained.
I think in a way, though inadvertently, you have brought out Rafi’s greatness that I have been striving to convey. Rafi could bring out sweetness from the navel without compromising on the depth. There are so many songs like “Maine shayad tumhe†that Rafi blends control with melody that it is ludicrous we would even suspect that.
On bengali songs, there is a scoop that Rafi had recoded some songs with music composer Robin Chatterjee that never saw the light of the day. One bengali singer (Shyamal or Manabendra) commented, that had those songs got published, it would have been the end of the road for other Bengali singers.
Regarding Sonu’s “O duniya ke rakhwaleâ€, I have not heard it, but I do believe Sonu can do justice to that. Also, I do not believe that was the toughest of Rafi songs. The toughest of Rafi songs are the seemingly easy ones. I remember one guy in our college fest could not get past and went flat on the third line of “Pukarta chala hoon mainâ€. And imitating a song does not make one equal to the original. For that matter, every Tom, Dick and Harry sings Kishore’s numbers. So?
ref post 1612
dear surajit, i fully agree with you about the rendition of tasweer teri dil mein. i can imagine the swetting of lata while rendering ; nainon ka kajra’. its not that easy.
and there lies the great composition of the great legend salil daa.
singh ji,
Thank you again for your kind words. It is easier to exchange views with some people on this forum since they are willing to listen to differing views. I only just saw your post no.1589, however, I could see Naveen’s posts 1590 and 1597 and also sudip_dat’s post 1599 later.
Moderator/Admin,
Maybe this is a problem on my end. However, just wanted to bring it to your notice. Sometimes, I don’t see older posts until a little later.
Surajit,
I should have known you’d bring Lata here :). I shared the Rafi song, … good thing I heard and shared Manna Dey’s too eh!! :). Anyways, I mostly agree with what you are saying in post no.1611. Here is what my take is on a couple of items.
“…even Manna Dey is nowhere near Lata or Asha as far as the capability of navigating fast paced taans is concerned…” – Lata might better Manna Dey in some places and vice versa (I don’t think this song is a good example – do you have others??), but what songs of Asha are you talking about? Also, do you think it is easier for a female to execute the faster taans in terms of delicacy? Asha excelled in her voice modulations (westernized alankars if I may), but Manna Dey and Lata were awesome there too.
“…Her rendition in raga Brindavani Sarang is first-rate by any cannon, not just filmi classical…”
Lata and Sarang – Vrindavani or Madhmad, how about “Aa Laut Ke Aaja Mere Meet”? Have you heard Pandit Bhimsain Joshi’s rendering of the raag?
Regarding Post No.1612, I don’t understand the context since I have not read most of the older posts. If I understand the gist of what you are saying, isn’t that mostly the case? Even students of music have to make compromises if there is a class comprising of men and women. Men have to sing lower than they like and females have to sing higher than they prefer :).
sudip_dat:
“…Manna’s focus was in handling complex notes, Rafi’s strength was in handling the melody and alaap…”
Interesting use of the words “focus” and “strength” :). Atleast we agree on Rafi’s limitations in handling complex notes viz-a-viz Manna Dey :). I don’t want to get into a greater level of detail since some people might say really strange things and I don’t want to cause unnecessary flutter. Don’t confuse Rafi’s sweet voice with his ability to deliver an intricate alaap or taan. Rafi’s voice was a plus and undoubtedly it took some songs to a higher level like the simple alaaps in “Mann Mora Bawra”, etc. Rafi faltered because he just did not have Manna Dey’s skill to deliver high-quality faster taans. Take “Jhanan Jhanan Baje Payalia” as an example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQNcsfFw7_E) from 2mins 43 secs onwards in comparison to Lata in the same song or other examples of Manna Dey or Ghantasala. A trained ear can tell the difference. To be fair, there is another song of Lata/Manna Dey in the same movie, where a Lata fan can possibly present a different analysis. However, to me Manna Dey and Lata are both equally good and Manna Dey is certainly at a higher calibre than Rafi in the song above. We also always have “Ketaki Gulab Juhi” for Manna Dey :). Manna Dey wasn’t weak in vilambit (or ati-vilambit) laya – just seems like a random statement. You might like Rafi more because in such songs Rafi’s sweet voice helps a lot. I continue to like Manna Dey’s strong yet sweet voice – different personal preferences. I like a lot of such Rafi songs simply because his voice infused so much sweetness in the song and those little nuances that Rafi and Kishore put because of their voice texture (I made this point on my website also), but not because it was difficult. I personally like Manna Dey’s texture a lot too. Ask someone who has learnt or is learning classical what they find more difficult. Rafi’s semi-classical songs are easier to render for any trained or particularly talented (in semi-classical) singer – it’s Rafi’s voice that makes the difference. Rafi did not have a steadier voice than Manna Dey. Everyone has different levels of natural “vibrations” in their voice and it might suit different types of songs, but it is not right to say that Rafi had a steadier voice (unless by steadier you mean lesser vibrations in which case, we can end up picking singers with flat voices over Rafi which is ridiculous). Different – sure. In short, Rafi relied more on his ability to infuse sweetness with his voice rather than show any mastery over semi-classical/classical singing of any type over Manna Dey. I think as people listen to more and more classical (actual classical), they will realize what I am saying. Talking of melody and laya, here is another Manna Dey song to enjoy “Tu Chuppi Hai Kahan” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HwR-BowRyc. You should also listen to “Sur Na Saje”, “Poocho Na Kaise Maine”, etc. again if you haven’t done so recently to clear some possible misconceptions (in parts of the song). Lastly, you should listen to “Laaga Chunari Mein Daag” a few times to understand why it is a very difficult song to sing.
“…but Manna simply could not handle the depth of a song like “Aaye na balam†(Shabab)…” – There is nothing in this song that Manna Dey could not handle. Even a lesser singer can handle this song. Again you are probably confused because of Rafi’s sweet voice. There is nothing spectacular about this song technically. If you talk about Rafi’s sweet voice, it is a different story. I like this song.
“…Rafi being a disciple of Kirana gharana, was ahead in Thumris and Bhajans…”
Should you and I really debate on the topic of a gharana? I won’t. I feel I am already crossing a line comparing these legends and I won’t talk about classical stalwarts or gharanas. Rafi (the individual) was not ahead in Thumris and Bhajans than Manna Dey. I personally like Manna Dey over Rafi in bhajans (“Bhay Bhanjana”, “Aan Milo Shyam Sanwre”, “Buddham Saranam”, “Tu Pyaar Ka Saagar”, “Man Bhawan Sangeet Suhavan”, “Ram Krishna Hari”, “Japo Ram Naam”, etc.) as well. We can go on talking about this. So maybe we should just drop this one.
“…Take “Aye mere pyare watanâ€. The song itself is great, but his voice in the antara is weak and quivering. It sounds feminine…”
You are the first one I have heard say that Manna Dey’s voice sounded feminine – that too for a song of the calibre of “Aye mere pyare watanâ€. I have a heard a lot of people say that Rafi has a feminine voice at times and he screams/yells at higher scales (I have never said either of these things), but Manna Dey having a feminine voice is just ridiculous. I don’t even have to counter this for Manna Dey is exceptional in this song. What song has Rafi been able to bring this effect (I mean Manna Dey’s style of singing in this song)? I will let people hear the song and decide for themselves. Since some guys quote people so much, here is a story Manna Dey mentioned about this song “…We were rehearsing the song and a close friend of mine Mr. Sharma was listening and came out and said Manna your voice is sounding very listless. There is no pizzaz. What are you singing? SD Burman retorted that on the contrary that was exactly the way the song was to be sung. It was being picturized on a man who was a poor kabuliwallah from Afghanistan who worked all day and would return to this crowded home he shared with others and while others would sleep, he would take out his rabab and sing yearningly of the land he left behind. I couldn’t have sung it in a robust manner. When music director Salil Chaudhry heard it he wept…”. Manna Dey said “I couldn’t have sung it in a robust manner”. Not robust and feminine are not the same. Hmm … what do you say? 🙂
You compared the popularity of Manna Dey and Rafi in Bengali songs sighting one example. You are a Bengali and you mentioned you like Manna Dey’s Bengali songs, so I assume you know better than to compare Rafi and Manna Dey in Bengali songs :). Bengal had so much home-grown talent, I think Rafi did not even have room to grow there. Lata and Asha certainly made their mark there as well. As far as the limited number of Rafi’s Bengali songs I’ve heard, they just sound very empty to me. The voice does not have the weight of Hemant, Kishore or Manna Dey. I would appreciate it if you guys could share Bengali songs of Rafi, Manna Dey, Hemant, Kishore, Lata, Asha, etc.
You keep ignoring my question – “…Finally, hear this version of Sonu’s “O Duniya Ke Rakhwale†– http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4mmXZWpTQs. I look forward to hearing your opinion. Did he hit the right notes?…”. I guess you understand and don’t want to admit. I will drop this. I don’t want anybody to look bad. I just want to debunk some false statements that are being made. You are certainly easier to exhange views with than some others on this forum and I appreciate that.
Anyways, if we continue to be on different pages, I guess we should agree to disagree and start talking about songs. Do you mind sharing some Bengali numbers?
Naveen,
Thank you for sharing those links.
Prabhanjan,
Your point in Post No.1605 is well taken. That holds true for all singers. They are all legends in their own right. We can all have different personal preferences and be respectful to all singers.
Hi all,
Let me come back to the distinction between the male and female voices as applies to singing. A lot has been said along the lines of how Lata or Asha struggled at the higher scales with respect to Rafi or even Kishore, and that has been used as an indication of their drawbacks.
I have long argued against this aspect as the basis of comparision. And many folks here pooh-poohed the reason that it is inherently unfair to make a female singer sing at a male singer’s scale. However, I have learnt enough music and mathematics to see that this is not a trivial issue.
The absolute frequency of a typical female voice is less than twice the absolute frequency of a typical male voice. Since musical notes have a logarithmic, periodic structure, the female pitch appears “lower” than the male pitch.
What this means in the context of filmi music is that a female singer has to sing at a *higher* pitch to match a male singer’s pitch. The female singer is essentially singing one octave above the male singer’s voice.
Going deeper into this, the 12 musical semi-tones are repeated to fill the entire frequency range as far as the octaves are concerned. The base note in Indian music is S (saa). After the 12th tone in the base scale – N (shuddha nii) – comes S’ (the upper saa). And so on.
S’ is an octave above S, i.e. its frequency is double the frequency of S.
Using the natural fundamental frequency as a guide (as specified here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocal_cords#Sex_differences ), let us assume that a male singer’s S is at 125 Hz. Then, his S’ will
be at 250 Hz. Assume that a female singer’s S is at 210Hz. Notice
how the female S (210 Hz.) is lower than the male S’ (250 Hz.).
If a female singer has to sing in the male singer’s scale, she will have
to shift her S (from 210Hz) to a frequency that matches the S (125 Hz.) of the male singer.
Now, musically speaking, S is indistinguishable from S’ so, alternatively, she can shift to the S’ (250 Hz.) of the male singer. It is obviously
easier for her to shift up to the male S’ (250 Hz. or ~2 full notes up) than shifting down to the male S (120 Hz. or ~5 full notes down).
So, when Lata is trying to sing at Rafi’s pitch in, say, “Ehsaan tera hoga mujhpe”, she is, in actuality, singing one octave higher. And considering that the song itself is a high-pitched one, it’s no wonder that she is caught struggling.
Hi Sudip,
That was the perfect point you have made regarding Rafi’s strengths and weaknesses, viz.a viz. semi-classical songs. He was good in alaaps and maintaining the melody. And he was not strong in executing complex taans, or in handling unusual rhythms or taals. That was why I expressed reservations about claims made by many here that Rafi was peerless in classical renditions as well. IMO, Manna Dey was better in the latter two aspects. However, where Manna Dey lacked with respect to Rafi (or even Kishore) was in his intonation and the subtle changes in voice texture required given a song situation. Not to mention that his voice was not as sweet as Rafi’s.
Going back to Manna Dey’s classical strengths, let’s look at “Laaga chunari mein daag”. In the last part of the song where the “taraana” is concerned, not only does Manna Dey execute the fast-paced taraana syllables very well, but he also maintains the taal – which, IMO, is not an easy thing to do. People fail to notice that the taraana has an off-beat pick-up, and the succeeding segments jump around the taal a little bit. And funnily enough, though a LOT of people have sung this song down the years in many shows, strictly keeping the taal correct frequently falls by the wayside (equal fault to singers and instrumental accompanists) as the audience launches off into applause at the shower of sargams and taraana bols at high-speed.
However, even Manna Dey is nowhere near Lata or Asha as far as the capability of navigating fast paced taans is concerned. The Mangeshkar sisters are unparalleled in semi-classical songs, especially in executing what are called “sapat” taans – straight up and straight down.
You can compare Manna Dey’s and Lata’s renditions of taans in this song (Manna dey sings first followed later by Lata):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L5saeQyHdA
Though Manna Dey (in raga Darbari Kanada) acquitted himself decently, Lata was clearly superior. Her rendition in raga Brindavani Sarang is first-rate by any cannon, not just filmi classical.
And you can compare Rafi’s and Lata’s renditions of taans in this duet – again based on raga Brindavani Sarang (mainly the last 40 seconds):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQNcsfFw7_E
Keeping aside the question whether Manna Dey was incapable of singing ghazals and thumris (IMO, he could), where Rafi was better was in infusing feeling into these kinds of songs. His naturally sweet voice and excellent intonation combined to give a distinct depth that most lacked. Although Talat, for a brief while, was arguably better where pure ghazals are concerned. And you or others are free to disagree with me here.
I am not sure if the particular song you took as an example (“Aye mere pyare watan”) is indicative of Manna Dey’s shortcomings. The quivering seems to be by design, rather than due to a failing voice although I haven’t listened to it recently. I am using another song of Manna Dey – “poocho na kaise” in TrivaT taal as a barometer. The latter song also, owing to it’s unusual taal, contains phases where a long stay on a single note is required (” … yug beetheeein mohe neend na aayee”).
Coming back to the Salil-Rafi equation, I am not sure if there was any feud between the two. I am getting a little sceptical about this thing where if any MD is unhappy with some of Rafi’s renditions, it is because they had a feud or that they were biased. Also, both “Maya” and “Kabuliwala” were in the same year. My guess as to why the “Kabuliwala” song went to Manna Dey was because they wanted a mature voice considering that it was picturized on Balraj Sahni.
Going back to the Salil-Raf-Lata song that had a lot of arguing going on – “Tasveer teri dil mein”, this is what I observed. Firstly, Rafi was able to reach the high notes easier than Lata (which is not surprising, given the male-female voice distinction, which I am going to address in another post). However, going into the details, there is definitely a discrepancy in their renditions.
Taking one of the antaras, in the second part of the antara, Lata goes (‘ denotes the notes in the highest octave):
Nainon Ka Kajra
G p S’ G’ R’R’R’
while rafi goes:
Jahan Hain Kadam Tere
G p D G’R’ R’R’
A couple of things stand out here.
Lata makes the ascent in just one word – “Nainon” while Rafi makes the ascent in two notes – “Jahan Hain”. Further, Lata goes GpS’G’R’R’R’ in both the antaras, while Rafi goes GpDG’R’R’R’.
While I know that the song took a dozen or more retakes, and it was widely known that Salil was not particularly happy with Rafi’s rendition, I am inclined to think that it was because Rafi was unable to hit the right note (D instead of S’). The ascent probably proved to be too rapid for him.
However, I have my own reservations about Salil’s fixation with this aspect of western classical music. IMO, he needlessly complicated a few of his compositions just to go off the beaten track, so to say.
correction:
please read
If we don’t do this then Manna would not have been considered a great singer that he is
Dear Bose,
I think agreeing to disagree is acceptable but I am afraid one can’t disagree with facts. I am not here to win an argument or do something like that. I am only trying to study things in the light of data as opposed to what a Manna fan or someone else may consider or have considered. I am all for giving credit wherever it is due. After all our discussion so far I am very glad that in your post 1601 you have narrowed it down to years 1950 through 1954. That way only being fair to Talat Sahib. I am happy that you have saved all of us some time and effort not to take discussion beyond 55 and also I am also happy for myself that I don’t have to bring forth Rafi’s achievements prior to 1950 to add more weight to my counter-arguments.
Now coming to your question whether I would count Kishore for Guide.My answer is that I would. In the same vein I would count Mukesh for Kati Patang as well.I don’t see everything in black and white.Please give the credit where it is due.
If we don’t do this then Manna would have been considered a great singer that he is.Manna may not have had got serious opportunities to carry entire movies on his shoulders but we fans have to consider his accomplishments in whatever space he was given.Was Manna lead singer in Waqt,answer is no, but is Waqt one of the well known works of Manna the answer is yes.Ditto for Mere Huzoor with respect to Manna. That does not take away anything from MK or Rafi in these two films mentioned. Having said this I am not saying Rafi was on top only on account of the movies like Awara or Andaz where he shared credits with other singers because for every Awara he also had Aan or a Baiju Bawra. To be objective we have to consider both. Ignoring the same is insulting the facts and our intelligence.
Anyways without digressing further let me return back to my list but this time only years 1950 to 1954 I have considered and let’s see how the data looks like.
There are 18 movies for Rafi as opposed to 13 by Talat. As far as composer diversity is concerned ,Talat has 11 composers as opposed to Rafi’s 10 which I think is almost even. As as aside since we are talking only top movies automatically we don’t see composers like Hansraj Behl,Shyamsundar,S Mohinder and quite few others who had preferred Rafi over his contemporaries in this time period. I am sure the same would hold for Talat or Mukesh in some cases. In nutshell if you look at it even year-wise 1950 and 1952 are almost even ,in 1951 Rafi has an edge over Talat, 53 tilts towards Talat and by 54 Rafi leads again and forever vis-a-vis Talat . In larger picture one might say Talat was a top singer from 1950 to 1953 , but that top was shared is deservedly shared by Rafi and Mukesh.
First the summary
Rafi 18 Talat 13
10 Composers for Rafi for these 18 movies
Naushad 6
Shankar Jaikrishen 3
C Ramachandra 2
Husnlal Bhagatram 1
Hemant Kumar 1
Salil Chaudary 1
Ghulam Mohd 1
Madan Mohan 1
Anil Biswas 1
O P Nayyar 1
11 Composers for Talat for his 13 movies
S D Burman 2
Shankar Jaikrishen 2
Naushad 1
Bulo C Rani 1
Anil Biswas 1
Ali Akbar Khan 1
Ghulam Mohd 1
Khayyam 1
Sajjad Hussein 1
Roshan 1
A R Quereshi 1
1950
1 Samadhi C Ramachandra –
2 Babul Naushad Talat
3 Dastaan Naushad Rafi
4 Jogan Bulo C. Rani Talat
5 Har Har Mahdev – –
6 Sangram C Ramachandra –
7 Beqasoor Anil Biswas Mukesh,Rafi
8 Sargam C Ramachndra Rafi
9 Arzoo Anil Biswas Talat
10 Aankhen Madan Mohan Mukesh,Rafi
Rafi 4 Talat 3
1951
1 Awaara Shankar Jaikrishen Mukesh,Rafi
2 Baazi S D Burman Kishore
3 Albela C Ramachandra Rafi
4 Deedar Naushad Rafi
5 Jadoo Naushad – Rafi
6 Bahaar S D Burman Talat
7 Anand Math Hemant Kumar Hemant Kumar
8 Baadal Shankar Jaikrishen Mukesh
9 Hum Log Roshan Mukesh
10 Afsana Husnlal Bhagatram Rafi/Mukesh
Rafi 5 Talat 1
1952
1 Aan Naushad Rafi
2 Baiju Bawra Naushad Rafi
3 Jaal S D Burman Hemant/Kishore
4 Daag Shankar Jaikrsihen Talat
5 Anhonee Roshan Talat
6 Maa S K Pal Kishore/Manna
7 Sangdil Sajjad Hussein Talat
8 Nagina Shankar JaiKrishen Rafi
+9 Bewafa A R Qureshi Talat
10 Aandhiyan Ustad Ali Akbar Khan -Hemant
Rafi 3 Talat 4
1953
1 Anarkali C Ramachandra Hemant
2 Ladki Dhani Ram/Sudarshan Kishore
3 Do Bigha Zameen Salil Chaudary Manna,Rafi
4 Parineeta Arun Kumar Nukherji Manna,Kishore
5 Footpath Khayyam/Timir Baran Talat
6 Jhamela C Ramachadra –
7 Shikast Shankar Jaikrishan Talat
8 Humsafar Ali Akbar Khan Talat
9 Aah Shankar Jaikrishan Mukesh
10 Raahi Anil Biswas Hemant
Rafi 1 Talat 3
1954
1 Nagin Hemant Kumar Hemant
2 Nastik C Ramachandra Hemant
3 Taxi Driver S D Burman Talat, Kishore
4 Mirza Ghalib Ghulam Mohd Talat, Rafi
5 Aar Paar O P Nayyar Rafi
6 Jagriti Hemant Kumar Rafi
7 Shart Hemant Kumar Hemant Kumar
8 Boot Polish Shankar Jaikrishen Manna,Rafi
9 Amar Naushad Rafi
10 Adhikar Avinash Vyas Kishore
Rafi 5 Talat 2
Thanks
Naveen
Sudip-ji,
Again a great analysis, I agree with all your points, and would like to add, that Rafi ofcourse could also handle complex notes greatly, there are countless examples. Rafi could handle (and do) anything, such was his talent, versatility, and greatness. The things Rafi could do (and did), no other singer could dream of doing so. Its impossible to compare anyone to Rafi.
My question to you is, and I have posed a similar question to XXX-ji, out of SDB, Roshan, OPN and MM, in your opinion, who used Rafi-saab the best ?. I think all four used the Badshah in the most wonderful way, but if you had to choose one MD, who would it be ?.
Thanks, Mykji for listing down those OPN songs. I’ve listened to most of them; Some like ‘phir miloge…’, I’ve been listening to after some gap… How well OPN has used Rafisahab’s vocal range (without sounding artificial).
Here’s one of the songs in your listing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9PJn7zXoLA
A good example of how Rafisahab could sound heavy if/when he wanted to.
Here’s another one on the same actor (mentioned by Gurumurthy sir in “Did RDB… thread):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZOclcOuwyY
Another song in which the vocals is pretty (almost uncharacteristically) heavy.
akashsaab,
i can only talk abt ppl whom i have seen in real how can i talk abt ppl who r historical n there cud be varied accounts of their deeds to me its all hypothetical they might be divine coz bringing one back to life is indeed an act of divinity but i beleive in wht i see n to me rafisaab brings all kinds of emotions to me.he was the first one to capture all the emotions n he was the first one who made stars out of average actors(joy mukherjee,biswajeet etc) so tht alone is a super effort..!!
If Manna De could have really song all the songs of Rafi, Kishore, and Mukesh, definitely, MD’s would have given him most of those songs, if not all. Its one thing for MD’s to praise Manna De (undoubtedly, he deserved them all), but its altogether different to give them to him.
A remark on Swaminathan Iyers comment:
“There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo†song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect.”
I can’t really make anything out of these lines. With all respect to this gentleman, who is as old as my grandfather, this is undoubtedly a very undermining remark about SPB. Sir, if this song is really as simple as you are putting it here, many producers would have saved a lot of money encouraging the OTHERS. Further, if this song was too easier, definitely, SPB would not have got National Award for this very particular song. In fact, if one looks at other SPB songs getting National Award for tamil version of “Door naa jaa mujhse”, or “Tere Beech Mein” from Ek Duuje Ke Liye, these are far more simpler than Shankarabharanamo song. Even, his three other songs winning National Awards “Thakita Thadini” from Sagara Sangama, “Tharilarada Kane Vasantham” from Rudraveena, and “Umandu Ghumundu” from Gaana Yogi Panchashari Gawai are not too complicated from this shankarabharanamo song.
Surely the jury can commit a mistake once, but not 6 times. Please clarify 🙂
“VIBRATO OR TREMOLO” BOTH ARE MISSING, from some songs of tatat saaheb. the voice is silken, good to the ear and greatly composed. it seems talat saaheb put the vibrato effect in to only some of his songs.
no doubt, he was the number one singer of his times and rafi had to labour and wait for his chance to become number one. once he got the spot post baiju bawra, rafi was the “only” choice . one voice for many actors in different singing style’s.
sadly, talat saaheb had lost his voice quality for different reasons which was quite sad. and his mentor who claimed many absurd theories about talat saaheb retired to new delhi in 1960 itself – a broken man.
binus
Just to add one more point, we as music fans also have knowledge (those music fans who are sane and do not write nonsense), and the capability to make our own judgements when it comes to music, however the opinions coming from knowledgeable individuals in music also matter a lot.
Hi Naveen,
I am sorry, but I think we are looking at it from different points of view, and we will have to agree to disagree.
I know I cannot convince you of this, but you don’t have to ask me, you can ask any Manna fan (since we are considering Talat and Mukesh as Rafi’s competitors during the phase from 1950-1954) as to who was considered the top singer during that period.
Let me take one of your statements. You said, for you as a Rafi fan, it is immaterial that Rafi sang just one song in Andaz while Mukesh sang the rest. That’s not the most objective view of looking at it. For eg., using that logic, I can say Kishore and Rafi were equally good in “Guide” because even though Kishore sang just one duet, it was a very big hit and as a Kishore fan, I loved it.
You should look at all the different MDs and who were they using the most.
From your own list (from 1950 – 1954):
Husnlal Bhagatram – Rafi
Anil Biswas – Talat
Roshan – Mukesh, Talat
Naushad – Rafi
Sajjad Hussain – Talat
SJ – Mukesh, Talat
SDB – Kishore, Hemant, Talat
OPN – Rafi
and numerous others like Quereshi, Bulo C Rani, Khayyam, Ali Akbar Khan who all primarily used Talat.
Even using your own list, it’s clear that Talat was used by most of the MDs until 1954. 1955 was the turning point.
There is a difference in being considered a part of the top group of singers, and being the number one singer.